The Foundry closed- because “Originals not wanted”
The problem with branding is that it doesn’t mean anything if your actions don’t fit your words. Case in point: The Foundry, like the Asylum before it- was the kind of large club that attracted young people to Downtown and the “entertainment district.” Both were hassled, and then shut down by the city through liquor permit revocations. I’m not saying that I approve of underage drinking, fights, or any other kind of criminal behavior, but there has to be a better way to manage this.
Of course- the Dayton Daily News just figured out it was closed (so much for being an information source):
The location that was self-billed as Dayton’s largest nightclub currently has several pieces of plywood covering its name.
Neither club was close to residential living (yes, the Foundry backed up to the Cannery- but, that was probably where a lot of its customer base lived). Both were in “Industrial” type buildings. Both catered to what would be the “creative class” but not the “creative class” that Richard Florida idolizes- you know the whole “perception/reality” duality.
So, while Dayton may start saying “originals wanted” just remember these are the same people who didn’t want a skate park anywhere near Riverscape, a group who would rather build another faux downtown in “ballpark village” complete with more “Big Box” retailers on the Parkside homes site- than build some sort of open recreation area “sportsplex” or truly unique attraction on this prime real estate visible right from I-75.
Saying “originals wanted” is not the same as embracing and actually welcoming them. Typically “originals” should make us a little uncomfortable, push our horizons out, make us think about things in a different way. So far, Dayton hasn’t shown any kind of action to say that they truly are ready to accept anything other than a “tried and true” canned solution: Including Dr. Florida’s whole “creative class process” and hiring a firm from Nashville to brand us.
You have to embrace what you have first- then welcome even more- it’s all about getting comfortable with change – and change can be very uncomfortable.
Thoughts?
@kevin:
“self sufficient tax paying human beings is a start to this creative class”
That rules out a lot of artists unfortunately.
Hate to inform you- but, the person who says “would you like fries with that, can also be a member of the creative class”
Where did I attack Bill Rain? I know what he did. But I also know he’s no longer here in Dayton investing, is he?
Having a job is a start, even if serving fries with that. It kinda represents responsibility. But if you want a group who can only draw pictures of their mates, go right ahead.
“But if you want a group who can only draw pictures of their mates, go right ahead.”
Yeah, and if you think having a couple of coloring contests is going to persuade anyone to move here from Miami or Austin, you’re in for a disappointment.
Your hearts may in the right place, but the social phenomenon you want to set in motion doesn’t come about because you form a think tank. It comes about because the area has attractive resources and smart, streamlined government.
No one sat down and made plan to turn the Bay Area or the Research Triangle into what they are. It happened as a natural result of what was there to begin with.
Cheerleading is great. What you’re doing is fine. But without the infrastructure and leadership you need, who are going to impress?
You have to peel your effort back one layer and clean house at city hall.
By the way…there have been 52 (53, now) coments on this blog about this initiative. Daytoncreate.org has had about 4.
Not bad for someone who has been cut from every team and is irrelevant. ;-)
From the CC site:
“Who is the Creative Class and why do they matter? The Creative Class, is 40 million strong, making up 30 percent of the U.S. workforce, with 50% of wages earned and controlling nearly 70% of discretionary spending in the US. That is over $500 billion in purchasing power annually!” This, mathematically, is a group that does work, that does pay tax.
From David Esrati:
“self sufficient tax paying human beings is a start to this creative class” (Kevin’s quote)
David’s response:
“that rules out a lot of artists unfortunately.”
So the guy who states what the creative class is basically saying THEY ARE EMPLOYED, employed with good paying jobs, and hopefully paying taxes. Esrati throws in unemployed losers we want to keep out of the Creative Class to begin with, and who do not qualify to be in the CC. Just because you smoke dope, play some tunes, craft a pot, paint a wall, well my friends, you may be creative but that does not necessarily put you in the CC that RF is trying to define, even though the definitions can be broad. David specifically calls out the unemployed/non tax payers. He is lost -AGAIN!
this is a typical David move – IDEA ONE is changed to his idea to include something that was supposed to be eliminated and then still call it IDEA ONE.
David has energy. David has vision. But he also is a good example of someone trying to manipulate others. He lies to us or is just crazy to redefine stuff at his discretion. A nice guy I guess, but he lacks THE TRUTH quality that a host needs. He makes stuff up, he defines shit his way, he takes ideas of others and changes them – ALL THE TIME. He lacks a certain simplicity to get things done, rather he loves to try to involve 34 million ideas, 12 thousand agencies to come up with so BS plan that he eventually calls his.
Keep it simple. And be truthful.
@Kevin- see your post at 11am where you attack Bill Rain.
@Gene- the creative class- from as way back as the 1400’s- had existed in part- by the graces of the well to do.
You have heard of “Art’s patrons” have you not?
Being creative isn’t about being part of some socio-economic subset-
it’s about being imaginative.
The Wright Brothers were bicycle shop owners first, inventors second. The “creative class” is more about an ability to accept new things- and change with the times, as opposed to working for GM on the line- for ones entire life.
And- Gene- continue on your rants- but, if you are going to insist on nailing me to a cross with every post- give us a full name.
Then we can crawl up your life with a microscope and examine your example to all.
RF defines CC with a direct correlation to employment, you on the other hand have taken it a step further an included those who are not employed yet creative. Are you defining his CC, your CC, or RE-defining his CC for him?
You got called out and you are WRONG regarding unemployed/non tax paying artist. These people, by definition, are NOT a part of a CC that we are talking about. Yes, they may be creative, and yes they may accept things new things, but being employed is a part of the definition, something you fail to accept. You always add people into to an equation that do not belong, or take people out who do belong. Someone who does not pay taxes and uses others to survive and is not self sufficient, regardless of their artistic ability, is not a part of the CC – or at least the CC that matters and that is defined by the CC web site. When you are wrong you are wrong. You are a bit bull headed to admit it. I examine what you post, as you examine what I post. You post ideas, I comment. I post other ideas, you comment. You have examined my ideas many many times, thank you.
These are the facts. THE TRUTH. Even you can’t dispute this, but I know you will try, and try real hard, but yet miss again.
I am perfect, thank you. No need to examine perfection, unless of course you want to be perfect like me.
Attack Bill Rains with what? A stick? How is pointing out that he left town because of a bad environment attacking him? But then again, you know all about attacking people. You have created quite a podium here to do so. You attack people about all sorts of sh!t as if you were there first hand to witness your accusations. It continues to make you a very popular person in this town, and certainly difficult to become friends with again.
When it RAINS it pours!
Getting the “rolled eye” look when mentioning this certain someone happens all the time. He calls people out, and when he is wrong he can’t admit it. Typical Libby.
Oh, who am I talking about?
I don’t know if this is ‘quite a podium’, but it is at least open to all schools of thought. Kevin’s preferred forum at DMM is denied to anyone who does not embrace ‘Richard Florida/Bill Pote Thought’.
Tell me what you censor, and I’ll tell you what you fear.
What has this discussion become but a boxing match between individuals who want to see this place become more active. Arguments have become little more than accusations that don’t even hardly pertain to the topic at hand. This discussion has become a debate, and a fairly poor one at that.
David has given his opinion, and in return he has been attacked by people who don’t see to really care anything about what he was actually talking about. I noticed TG say that she agreed there needed to be more cooperation amongst the catalyst and the rest of us in spreading the word on the going-ons. So there, we’ve gotten that far.
Where dos the rest of this come from? Oh wait..it’s Gene, who has no clue what it means to actually debate. You go ahead and stick with your ridiculous statements that are actually destructive and we’ll with the real issues like adults. I would advise anyone reading these posts to ignore what Gene has to say, because all it is is “religious banter” from a guy who doesn’t seem to want to actually talk, but would rather make assumptions about someone that have no factual basis at all.
Thanks, Gene, for turning this discussion into a pie-throwing contest where you point the blame at others to keep anyone from looking at you…who has spent the better part of the last year (at least, probably more) making rude off-topic remarks to David rather than doing something to help this city. You’re wasting my time and yours by acting like this.
I pay taxes – I do help this city, thanks. David’s definition of the CC is just off based and needed to be pointed out.
The Foundry catered to criminals rather than David’s broad version of CC that included the unemployed. Why the heck do I care if a place that caters to drug users, dealers, thieves, etc closes? Just bc you are urban, just bc you don’t shower, just bc you don’t have a job, just bc you do drugs, just bc you wear overpriced/dirty/torn clothes, just bc…….. this does not make you hip or cool or a part of the CC. In fact, it hurts this city and many other cities like Dayton. But Suburbanites, the CORE OF THE CC BTW, are classified as sell outs and boring, yet they provide most everything in this country, including money, jobs, education, etc.
The fact is that the CC defined by RF or any other such definition needs to only include the employed. What is so hard to understand about this? He sort of just throws stuff in the mix and he wants us to believe it. It is BS. Unemployed artist are NOT in the CC. Plain and simple.
Just curious, who here has actually read Rise of the Creative Class?
So dollars and cents are the sole standard of worth for the Creative Class? Why haven’t the Creative Class Catalysts stated this from the start? I’ve discerned many neo-Yuppy qualities in the CCCs, but I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, and refrained from using the “Y-word”.
Inside every cataylst there resides a cash register struggling to come out.
Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Gene.
@Kate- I bought it Dr. Ponitz told me about it- years ago. I then heard him speak. I’ve never made it all the way through- skimmed it- read a bunch about it- heard him speak again.
Not sure it’s the answer to all the problems urban cores are facing.
@ Gene- yes, even artists have jobs and make money. However, if they make below X $ they don’t contribute much in the way of taxes.
You should know that. You love to rant. Keep it up.
“Who is the Creative Class and why do they matter? The Creative Class, is 40 million strong, making up 30 percent of the U.S. workforce, with 50% of wages earned and controlling nearly 70% of discretionary spending in the US. That is over $500 billion in purchasing power annually!” “””””self sufficient tax paying human beings is a start to this creative class” from Kevin (which I agree) the David states: “That rules out a lot of artists unfortunately.” Now he changes this and says the don’t contribute “much.” I am confused. Which is it David? I am just questioning YOUR comments that YOU wrote. What do you not understand about the wealth of the Creative Class as stated above? Is the Math too hard. Are you people a little slow with numbers? It is not about wealth, but it so happens, as defined by CC.org, that wealth is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE factor, as stated above, and if you need a Math lesson I suggest you go back to your DPS roots and fail again. AGAIN, this, mathematically, is a group that does work, that does pay tax. David is just flat out wrong and is being a little baby about not admitting that non-taxpayers ( see YOUR quote David) do not belong in the definition of Creative Class. This is not that hard. David is just a mule, and likes to change shit to fit his definition. He thinks UD is Downtown Dayton, well, it is in fact NOT DOWNTOWN and just a section that happens to be south of where Downtown is. These are the facts. He wants to include it in the Downtown area to make it seem like shit is happening downtown, when in fact it is happening in another section of Dayton, which is NOT Downtown. This is what he does to define somewhat success of downtown. It just is no the truth. This is like saying the Cincinnati Reds are a good baseball team bc the Dragons and Chat. and Louisville (all minor league teams) had successful seasons. It just really does not… Read more »
If I can offer some thoughts on the unemployed artist discussion…I would use quotes, but just this afternoon I lent my copy of RotCC to a talented would-be-artist cocktail waitress who is helping us set up the 20 Jefferson space… Yes, Florida defines the CC as a true class in terms of its economic output. These are the folks driving regional economies by using their own creativity in their work. He describes the “CORE Creatives” as the architects & scientists, designers & engineers, and yes, artists. They think and use their creativity *for a living*. The CC also includes, but more in a peripheral way, people like lawyers and business people for whom thinking is a large part of their work. So I’d say the [insert typical non-creative worker here] that does art as a hobby, or the would-be artist who sits around talking about making art but never produces anything for sale…it’s hard to put them in this economic class. Artists are not typically the most compensated in our American system, but that doesn’t make them any less a member of this group. And it can be argued that these are some of the most truly *catalyzing* actors in a regional economy. In an era where employees are more mobile than ever, creatives are extremely discerning about a region’s cultural and nightlife opportunities, along with other quality of life amenities and natural features. Jobs aren’t moving to regions so much any more as jobs are moving to where employers can find a highly-educated, creative workforce. Things like music scenes, nightlife, and other cultural scenes are much more important for young (most likely to relocate) employees than the average leader in this town realizes. So where does that leave you if you’re an extremely talented musician, actor, or visual artist, but haven’t had the opportunity to leave Dayton, or figured out how to be one of the few economically successful working artists in this town? You’ll probably end up working a non-creative job while you dream about having the time & energy to pursue your endeavors…and fall further out of… Read more »
Has anyone in the “creative class” ever suggested or thought about offering drexel dave any space to do a mural or space for a gallery? That cat does all kinds of stuff, but mostly out of town. Hell, his music got written up by Robert Christgau this summer, and not a word of it in the local press (Robert Christgau is the senior music editor at Blender Magazine, does weekly NPR segments, writes for Rolling Stone Magazine, and more). Penn Gillette is even one of drexel’s biggest fans (literally and figuratively).
Yet, he has a hard time even getting a small gig in Dayton, and has to drive school buses to make a living.
Am I the only one who thinks there is something seriously wrong with this picture? Dayton has certainly not been very good to one it’s utmost originals.
Don’t believe me? Check out his youtube video “Let’s Kick Toby Keith in the balls? Funniest damn thing I’ve seen in awhile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quQer8Jei3M
I certainly love his work, as do a lot of other folks. But I would suppose that the power structures that be would be quite threatened by someone like that – articulate, funny as hell and champion of little folks.
Nice, nice…………. not thriling, but nice.
Toby Keith is a big boy now.
Original, yes. Creative, yes. Funny, yes.
But is he really ready for the big stage?
“I certainly love his work, as do a lot of other folks. But I would suppose that the power structures that be would be quite threatened by someone like that – articulate, funny as hell and champion of little folks.”
DD sure has got his finger on the pulse of a certain briar funkyness here….I didn’t know he was still performing.
Seth,
Where’s that life size cut-out of David? The dogs are getting out of hand. I think Gene is getting special treatment if he has one and I don’t.
Kate-
how many creative class people would be enthralled by “ball park village” and some big box cookie cutter retail on McCook Field/Parkside homes- vs. a world class outdoor sports mega plex?
An Olympic quality pool, velodrome, BMX/XGames style bike facility, skate park, roller hockey rinks, ice rinks, lacrosse, soccer, football fields and maybe even a cricket pitch?
Or another Wally World store?
I’ve been advocating a CC catalyst facility for the whole community- in a highly visible location for years now. Not a one of you has said anything in support of this kind of public project.
I’ve even backed the white water park- which many of you don’t get either…
We’re competing for quality of life- and it’s a battle we can win.
But not with all this NIMBY or provincial bickering.
Oh dear God – I walk away from the computer for a day and all hell really breaks loose.
I must say some of you are truly showing your less flattering sides. The Creative Class is made up of Artists, Musicians, performers (aka Bohemian; aka BoHo index) which Dayton scores fairly well on – above the national average.
It’s also made up of engineers, lawyers, architects, researchers, doctors, educators.
But the spirit of Florida’s theory is that it is not about chasing the 30% currently working in CC jobs – but to tap into the creativity of the remaining 70% to improve the quality of life in a region. Improve the quality of life, improve your odds of attacting other CC types and then if you have the right combination of talent, technology, territorial assets and tolerance, companies will come to you to seek out the talent.
To Kate’s question – , I’ve read Rise of the Creative Class, Flight of the Creative Class and Who’s Your City. Personally, I hope RF isn’t reading THIS.
Can we PULLLLEEEEEEZE STOP with the name calling, insults & general rock throwing? We’re flunking the TOLERANCE test in the worst possible way.
“…which Dayton scores fairly well on – above the national average.”
When I see that Dayton scores higher on this than Louisville I REALLY question Florida’s numbers. Or his numbers are missing something.
If Florida means there is a higher porportion of cultural creatives in Dayton vs, say Louisville, yet the cultural creative scene in Louisville is much more visible and a part of the life of that city there is something really wrong, either with Dayton, or with Florida’s methodology.
Jeff – too tired to go through my book with all the research data provided by the Florida Group. All I can say is that Dayton scores higher than the national average on the BoHo index. I did not say how that compares to Louisville or other cities.
^
In the book Louisville, for that bohemian index, ranks I think 30 out 50 metro areas at or over 1,000,000, which is quite low. So if Dayton is above average on this it means it has perhaps a higher ranking.
There is more recent work out that I need to look at, but I will post that on my blog as its sort of off-topic for this discussion.
I love the irony of how the CCC condemns the methodology of “Forbes” statistics, but doesn’t challenge the soundness of Richard Florida’s statistics. Can you say ideologues?
Donald – didn’t you leave Dayton about a lifetime ago? What is your obsession with continuing to insult people that you’ve never met and know little or nothing about? Isn’t there something in NY that can keep you better occupied? I hear there are a lot of CC types there. Jeff – the numbers I have from the Florida Group used the 2006 Dayton MSA and lists themselves as the source on that particular chart. Other sources for other data include the Bureau of Labor Statistics, American Community Survey, etc. 1.0 is the national average so a 1.25 would be 25% above the national average and .75 would be 25% below it. (You know that but not everyone might). They tried to mostly compare us to similar sized cities. According to the 2006 numbers for the Bohemian Index.. Albuquerque NM is 1.31 Minneapolis, MN is 1.28 Denver CO is 1.17 Dallas/Forth Worth – 1.12 Dayton, OH 1.05 Wichita KS .92 St Louis MO .92 Tulsa OK .89 Syracuse NY – .87 Louisville KY – .87 Omaha NE – .83 Fresno CA – .54 When you look at the Melting Pot Index (% of foreign born residents), Dayton/Springfield has 2.5%, Louisville 3.5%, Albuquerque at 10.5% and Fresno CA is 20.8% Gay Index – Dayton is 1.10 (10% above national average) Louisville is .90 (10% below). Lesbian index – Dayton .83 – Louisville 1.11 Gay & Lesbian combined – Dayton is .97 and Louisville is 1.00 However, when you look at the composite of all the Tolerance Indices, Dayton & Louisville are tied at .40. Not so good. The Florida Group defines Tolerance…”all of our work indicates that communities with a tolerant environment, an environment that values the contributions of the greatest and most diverse portions of its population, are the communities best poised to thrive and achieve sustainability in the creative economy. Our work clearly indicates there is a direct correlation between a community’s tolerance and its ability to foster innovations in business, science and culture.” Clearly based on the content of this overall thread – we have our work cut… Read more »
Donald, we signed up as volunteers to implement initiatives based on Richard Florida’s work, not to spend the year critiquing it. I had seen Florida speak twice and read some of his work, and thought it had some merit to it based on observing the location choices of my friends and reading critical reviews. I wouldn’t have signed up if I felt otherwise…
Question from someone who hasn’t read RF:
Who is working on attracting the employers who will employ all these CORE Creatives that the Catalysts strive to attract to our city?
At some level this seems to me like a chicken-egg problem – we can build the most inspiring art scene, hottest nightlife, and hippest neighborhoods, etc. but if the employers aren’t here what’s the use? If the great jobs don’t show up until the CORE Creatives do, who do the CORE Creatives work for in the meantime?
Is DD ready for the big stage? Well, he certainly has a stage presence pretty much unrivaled around here.
I really doubt that in this corporatized sanitized age, anyone would ever let him a mile within’ a stage with a large audience.
He might incite large audiences to think. That’s dangerous.
Jay, this is precisely RF’s theory…an employer isn’t going to relocate anywhere that its smart, well-educated, creative workers aren’t willing to move…no matter how large the tax breaks or other incentives.
Kate:
Thanks for the response – your answer takes me back to the other side of the chicken-egg dilemma and what I would guess is something that Catalysts struggle with:
Are there enough CORE Creatives here, now, to support the kind of culture (art, nightlife, community, etc) that Florida calls out as necessary to entice additional CORE Creatives (and their employers) to relocate here?
And ultimately, from a business perspective doesn’t there have to be more reason than ‘it’s a cool place to live’ to convince an employer to relocate here?
We Have Plenty of people – but we need better housing (yes, this means tearing down the old – the NON historic houses) making huge improvements in education (which is really hard to do) growing the arts and nightlife and many more things. Dayton needs to attract people to LIVE in the city first, the city needs to attract business as well as cultivate new business through the CC. We still have way too many neighborhoods that are unsafe, not clean, unsightly. Work on areas like SP, which has done an outstanding job, and locate areas where blocks of houses can be torn down to build new, modern houses like in the FG, but not just here and there, blocks and blocks of this. Mix old with new – if you build it (or re-build it) they will come.
They have done a nice job with DT living – but people with families have little options, and then spring to Springboro and Centerville or Kettering. Go to these areas and ask why the don’t want to live in Dayton, and they will say schools and crime and housing etc. There are many who fit into the CC out in the ‘burbs.
We need to remember that MOST people who live here want a yard, a little land. DT living is great, but this is not NY or Chicago. Places like Nashville have a hell of a time getting people to actually live DT. Why? bc these people, like people in Ohio, are used a yard and safe neighborhoods. We need to create that first, along with other things, and people will slowly move back, creating a better situation in regards to education, safety and work.
Jay: “Who is working on attracting the employers who will employ all these CORE Creatives that the Catalysts strive to attract to our city?”
Here is a who’s-who list for you:
Ohio Dept. of Development
City of Dayton Economic Development
Montgomery County Economic Development
BusinessFirst! Regional Partnership
Dayton Development Coalition
Downtown Dayton Partnership
Dayton Chamber of Commerce
CityWide Development Corporation
Sinclair Community College (workforce development)
Wright State University SBD Center
University of Dayton SBD Center
SCORE (Dayton Chapter)
Community Action Partnership
Dayton-Montgomery County Port Authority
Commercial Real Estate Brokers
Commercial Bankers
Before somebody says the obvious… Yeah, it does read like a laundry list. But remember each group has a little niche that they fill. Nobody can do everything. Then again, you also have to consider that every region has most of the same kind of groups. However it is as much, if not more, about growing what you’ve got first. Attraction is a lot harder and more time consuming than retention.
“They have done a nice job with DT living – but people with families have little options, and then spring to Springboro and Centerville or Kettering. Go to these areas and ask why the don’t want to live in Dayton, and they will say schools and crime and housing etc. There are many who fit into the CC out in the ‘burbs.”
Gene speaks the truth.
I did a little collection of maps for creative class occupations, based on the 2000 census. A lot in the suburbs, both in raw numbers and as a %.
See for yourselves:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=14543.0
“Jeff – the numbers I have from the Florida Group used the 2006 Dayton MSA and lists themselves as the source on that particular chart. Other sources for other data include the Bureau of Labor Statistics, American Community Survey, etc. 1.0 is the national average so a 1.25 would be 25% above the national average and .75 would be 25% below it. (You know that but not everyone might). They tried to mostly compare us to similar sized cities.
According to the 2006 numbers for the Bohemian Index..
Albuquerque NM is 1.31
Minneapolis, MN is 1.28
Denver CO is 1.17
Dallas/Forth Worth – 1.12
Dayton, OH 1.05
Wichita KS .92
St Louis MO .92
Tulsa OK .89
Syracuse NY – .87
Louisville KY – .87
Omaha NE – .83
Fresno CA – .54”
These are great. At the blog post I used earlier data from a report coauthored by Florida, showing Louisville & Dayton to be closer.
These numbers really are fascinating.
1.05 and -.87
This is really interesting, thanks for posting this. Based on this number Louisville should be a lot duller than it is, so I think maybe an incomes and culture issue there.
So even more questions. Great stuff!
I can across this post from Jeff’s post at Daytonology (http://daytonology.blogspot.com/2008/08/eavesdropping-at-cocktail-party.html) and I have to say he sums up my feelings pretty well.
I understand Esrati’s sentiment especially the “embracing what you have” and knowing who you are without hiring an out of town consultant (although outside consultants can bring relevant and fresh perspectives).
Instead of tying a club’s closing to the mentality that favors “Ballpark Village” to “Sportsplex,” it would be more advantageous to adopt an “all of the above” redevelopment strategy that targets businesses, families, and “originals/creatives.”
Not until we all find our niche and make it the best we can make it can be will Dayton be the best it can be. Here I’m thinking about the unique strengths of the people in the community (ie Bill Pote, TG, Esrati, even bloggers like Jeff).
Maybe Dayton’s leadership (that includes the posters on this blog) should adopt the motto: ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL!
Jay – sometimes it does indeed seem like chicken & egg. Traditional economic development goes out and entices companies to move to your town. Florida’s premise is that companies will go where the talented workforce lives. The talented workforce wants to be in a vibrant city with other creative types. Clustering has a lot to do with it as well. For example, if you say Silicon Valley – you’re likely to think high tech and venture capital. New York – financial and theater. LA – film & breast enhancements (sorry, just seeing if you’re still paying attention). Nashville – county music. Dayton has a high concentration of engineers as well as Boho’s. Let’s talk WPAFB – is it here and growing because of all the engineers & STEM types – or are the STEM types & engineers here because of WPAFB? Could be a little of both. Creative types put a lot of value on being around other creative types – but diversity is key here because different cultures bring different skills or traits to the table. Creative types also burn a lot of mental energy at work, so they tend to seek out more interactive forms of entertainment afterward. So in this case, David has a point about the SportPlex or kayaking, hiking, white water, etc. We do need a vibrant street scene – and one that operates late at night because often CC types work long hours and need a place to unwind – but not necessarily at a bar or restaurant. They want to be able to go places where other creative types are so they can brainstorm even more. I’m on the “This is Dayton” initiative and we’ve been holding our meetings lately on the patio at the Trolley Stop – in part so if we see young creative types around us, we can pull them into the conversation. It’s also to show the community that we’re meeting, talking, and are out in the open – not hiding. We can interact with people and pull in their thoughts & ideas. When UpDayton sent out their survey,… Read more »
Looks like we have to work on those lesbians.
I agree with David, and Theresa and Another Guy …AND KATE!
…as you all make valid points…and Like Rodney King once said, “CAN’T WE ALL JusT GET ALONG”?
Ok Kate I, I’m game, when and where?
Bob
Jeff, What do you think the real difference is between Louisville and Dayton: Regional Government? Would that style of government temper the negative numbers in Louisville and if so should not the Creative Class work exclusively on fostering a Regional Government?
Have any of the CCC ever lived through what Richard Florida writes about? I lived on Valencia Street in San Francisco’s Mission District during the dot-com bubble, and in one fell swoop saw Punk and even older Beat Generation institutions displaced by well-funded fanticists. Poets, painters, agitators, dancers and writers were pushed out by managers, ‘creative directors’, entrapreneurs, and real estate agents. It was middle class warfare in its most brutal form–an ugly sight.
All that went POP! in 2000. Fifteen-thousand people moved out of San Farancisco within a year. The Mission is a hollow husk of its former self. The flight of the ‘creative class’ threw the city into a tailspin from which it has yet to pull out.
You have to stop reading Richard Florida and instead start to parse his texts.
It is oh so ironic that it is papa ubu’s comment that brought me back into this crazy fold… and I’ll go ahead and apologize to everybody ahead of time for the book I’m about to write – please bare with me… Donald, your last comment has me shaking my head – not because I disagree with you, but because I think what you just said was SPOT ON. Your critical assessments are not what got you kicked off of DMM, because it is alternative views like THAT that I wish we had more of. Why could you not post comments like that in the first place rather than the anonymous mocking and cryptic name calling that makes the DDN message boards such a disaster? I know your disdain for me is strong so I doubt you’re impressed, but I do wish the REAL Donald Phillips could have added to our conversations from the beginning. After my blow-up on David in my last comment I’ve had time to read everybody’s views and time to reflect. I know David personally (though not very well), and so I took what he said personally. I suppose next time I see him at the market or SPT we’ll likely shake hands and that will be that (no hugs though – that would be a bit too kum bye ya for me). We’ve gone at it before and will likely go at it again – but hopefully the respect is mutual. Having put a lot of energy into our project (along with Kate and others in our group), it has been frustrating to feel like we’re just getting crapped on for trying to do something different for the community. But after reading all of this, and reading David’s most recent post (http://esrati.com/?p=937), I believe I’m now able to see what people (including David and Donald) are saying. I realize people’s perceptions of who I am and what I’m all about will likely prevent many from listening to what I’m about to say, but I’ll try anyway… For the record, I personally think Richard Florida is… Read more »
Billy – I am horribly offended and will never speak to you again. NOT! “but I do wish the REAL Donald Phillips could have added to our conversations from the beginning.” and I share your sentiments in this regard.
As for Richard Florida, well, I’m not a huge fan of statistics on any level. However, I am a fan of trying things that are different. It seems as if we’ve done all the “tried & true” economic development things in this town and it hasn’t worked – so why not try something totally different?
Like you, I like the grass roots nature of all of this. I like that it’s not the same old people involved. I like that it engages the community – even if the community isn’t feel completely engaged at this point.
And I think Forbes putting us on that *(#&# list may be the best thing that ever happened to this town because people are fired up and ready to make liars out of them. Sometimes the best way to rally people is around a common enemy.
And like I’ve said many times here and elsewhere what I love most about the Florida theory is that it’s about tapping into the creativity of the 70% not currently working in “creative” jobs. They’re still creative people and they still deserve input into how to reshape their community.
Clearly Dayton is facing a renaissance – yet another opportunity to reinvent itself and come out new & improved. I have no doubt in my mind that we’ll do just that – but there’s going to be a bit of a battle ground for a while because everyone can be so married to their own ideas. As long as we can all stay focused on creating a better community – we should emerge relatively unscathed.
What does this mean? Grass roots? Creative? Input? People who have ideas are nice – but we need EXPERTS. When I go to the Doctor I offer an opinion – and then he laughs. When a house is being built, a “design star” may have great ideas but if it does not meet code and is not possible due to engineering conflicts, well then all you have is some “creative” idea that ain’t worth much. My point is we all have ideas – but they are just that – IDEAS. Now we should be at the point of saying the enough with ideas(bc at some point you just have to move forward), and get some people who do it for a living and then just do it. You will never please everyone. If you move to CITY B you don’t go to local government and say “well what you should have done with this land is……..” No. You adapt to what is there, not the other way around. On that note we should just give the keys to a trusted concept and go with it. We can change and adapt as we go, but not doing anything is a waste of time. Sure mistakes will be made, but such is life. As Charles Kettering said,”You never stub a toe standing still.” I do not have all the answers, maybe none of the answers. But it seems to me someone with ANY vision is better than the “well I’d like to see a……” mentality of people who are out for themselves. If I would do “well I’d like to see………” mentality with Dayton I would say a casino (really not possible) the OD get rid of all the art and make it only rest/bars, create a pure art district, allow drinking on the street, destroy blocks and blocks of old worthless homes and design new, fresh homes with larger lots, etc. But I realize some of my idea can never be done and some are plain stupid. But I am willing to ignore my wants and hope we can do something.… Read more »
I have no disdain for anyone at DMM. I merely detected some prickly personalities, a few of whom had quite a bit of starch in their underpants. I couldn’t resist the opportunity for some cheap laughs. Papa Ubu (requiescat in pace) was my absurdist alter ego. Ideally, he kept my self-righteousness in check and prevented me from going ad hominem.
No ad hominem? I love ad hominem. :P
And since I had Comment #1 here, I see it fitting that I now post Comment #100. Ad hominem that!
Btw – is this an esrati.com record?
Had 2 posts with 50 comments. So yes- this is a record.
Never would have thought this post would have been the one.
Here is the previous most commented:
The Foundry closed- because “Originals not wanted” (100)
From a consultant: DPS doesn’t need no stinkin outside consultant (50)
It’s the county fair every day but Sunday at Tony’s (50)
Jared Diamond must have seen the Esrati Priceless video (48)
Is America becoming a third world country? (45)
Reynolds bails on downtown (45)
Victor Pate: Leader. (42)
The South Park Kroger- or how to guarantee a lawsuit. (40)
The big problem is we’re getting smaller. (40)
Lori Turner withdraws from branding campaign: owes a refund as well as a mea culpa (38)
Announcing Esrati for Congress (36)
What now, Tonto? (34)
Join my crusade! Smoke Free Theater in Dayton! (29)
Can Dayton get its geek on? (28)
Dayton Public Schools- Now what? (28)
Elect Esrati to Congress, because, well, his TV spots cost less (28)
Calling all Dayton Locavores: John Henry’s soft opening (27)
Does Dayton need a “Combat zone”? (27)
Barack Obama needs you- and what you can do (26)
“Get Midwest”- A generic campaign that is guaranteed to fail. (26)