The Foundry closed- because “Originals not wanted”
The problem with branding is that it doesn’t mean anything if your actions don’t fit your words. Case in point: The Foundry, like the Asylum before it- was the kind of large club that attracted young people to Downtown and the “entertainment district.” Both were hassled, and then shut down by the city through liquor permit revocations. I’m not saying that I approve of underage drinking, fights, or any other kind of criminal behavior, but there has to be a better way to manage this.
Of course- the Dayton Daily News just figured out it was closed (so much for being an information source):
The location that was self-billed as Dayton’s largest nightclub currently has several pieces of plywood covering its name.
Neither club was close to residential living (yes, the Foundry backed up to the Cannery- but, that was probably where a lot of its customer base lived). Both were in “Industrial” type buildings. Both catered to what would be the “creative class” but not the “creative class” that Richard Florida idolizes- you know the whole “perception/reality” duality.
So, while Dayton may start saying “originals wanted” just remember these are the same people who didn’t want a skate park anywhere near Riverscape, a group who would rather build another faux downtown in “ballpark village” complete with more “Big Box” retailers on the Parkside homes site- than build some sort of open recreation area “sportsplex” or truly unique attraction on this prime real estate visible right from I-75.
Saying “originals wanted” is not the same as embracing and actually welcoming them. Typically “originals” should make us a little uncomfortable, push our horizons out, make us think about things in a different way. So far, Dayton hasn’t shown any kind of action to say that they truly are ready to accept anything other than a “tried and true” canned solution: Including Dr. Florida’s whole “creative class process” and hiring a firm from Nashville to brand us.
You have to embrace what you have first- then welcome even more- it’s all about getting comfortable with change – and change can be very uncomfortable.
Thoughts?
The city did not close the Foundry, nor did it revoke its liquor license. Only the state can revoke a liquor license; the city can only make recommendations to the state, and even then liquor licenses are rarely revoked. (they’ve been recommending for years that Webster Station have their license revoked and yet Webster Station is still in business). And it isn’t the city that makes these initial recommendations – it is the police department. The Foundry ran into problems when they started doing hip hop nights on Sunday nights and even after several fights, stabbings and even shootings they continued to fail to provide adequate security. The police tried to work with the owners on solutions but were met with resistance, and it was ultimately the police that recommended to the city that the Foundry’s liquor license not get renewed because of the number of calls the police had to answer there.
As for your feelings about the Florida group, what exactly is your problem with organizing people who live in this community to come up with some fresh ideas and do some positive things here in Dayton? Other than the initial two-day seminar that brought various people together, Florida’s group has had nothing to do with what the catalysts have been doing. This is a home-grown effort – why can’t you recognize that? We’re not trying to save the world – we are trying to do some grassroots projects that are NOT coming from the powers-that-be in this town. Some may have small impacts, others will hopefully have larger impacts – but we are all working hard to make a difference.
As a catalyst working on a creative community space in an otherwise vacant downtown building that will promote and embrace LOCAL creatives (the kind you are talking about), I would hope that if you’re not going to support us that you’d at least actually try talking to some of us about what we’re doing before trashing our efforts on your blog. I’m available if you ever want to learn more. You know my number.
-Bill Pote
Bill-
The City made the recommendation to pull the permit- the State followed through. The problems with crime at a night club can be solved by charging the club per incident related to their patrons- after a few incidents- much like the alarm policy. Clubs will either change- or have to hire police full time at their own expense to stop the problems.
As to the “crew” of Creative Class “leaders”- once again- we’re doing the herd mentality decision by committee- which generally gets more mundane plans- that don’t get implemented.
We have a complete leadership vacuum in Dayton.
We should start cleaning house by cutting our ranks of “leaders” by the same amount of population loss- and consolidate as much “government” as possible.
Then we may actually see some real forward movement.
I was there at the brand unveiling- I’m probably the first to implement it. Give me some credit. I just believe the talents are here- it’s our “leaders” who are paying lip service to all this talk of change- it’s what their actions say.
No innovative solutions offered to stop the foundry from closing- just the same old- close it down.
It’s time to take your rose colored glasses off.
Oh, yeah- and the “hip hop nights” – those are taxpaying citizens too, they just don’t rub elbows with people like you.
I recall the Asylum but was there only once. They were sort of lame working a BDSM thing a bit and had a cigarette boat as a DJ booth. OK, clever, but not very Daytoneseque.
The Foundry was much better. It had an awesome interior and it works very well into a sort of gritty “life among the industrial ruins” concept. They even had a cupola furnace customized into a DJ booth.
I was there two or three times, both for live music shows, so cant say what the music was like. But I could easily imagine this as a cutting edge dance music venue, and its actually better for the kind of music they play upstairs at 1470 than 1470 itself. This is the kind of place where you’d put on a Mouse on Mars concert.
One could have seen it as Dayton’s Hacienda…well,I guess it WAS like the Hacienda with the thug element, but I was thinking more cutting edge dance music and “industrial” sounds (if that stuff is still being done)
If you’ve never seen the Foundry Masquerage will be there this year, so you all can see what a great club space this is.
Oh, I should just step away, but I just can’t let this one go.
So let me get this straight, we have a club with “underage drinking, fights, or any other kind of criminal behavior” and it’s NOT ok to shut it down or revoke their liquor license because we’re not allowing them to be “ORIGINAL” or CREATIVE?
WHAT am I MISSING here? The patrons won’t obey the laws and the owners won’t go out of their way to enforce it with extra police or security and we have a problem with them being held accountable for their actions?
“Typically “originals” should make us a little uncomfortable, push our horizons out, make us think about things in a different way.” – WHERE IN THE HELL DOES RICHARD FLORIDA OR THE CITY OR ANYONE ELSE SAY THAT ANYONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BREAK THE LAW IN THE NAME OF CREATIVITY OR ‘PUSHING OUR HORIZONS OUT’?
Where is the line in the sand, David? What’s the difference between hip hop tax paying citizens breaking the law at a club and shooting each other on the street over drugs?
Are you KIDDING ME???
OK, now let’s move on to “We have a complete leadership vacuum in Dayton.”
Do We??? What we have is a bunch of whiny ass citizens who want the “Leadership” to get out and do whatever it takes so that the citizens can reap the benefits without doing a damned thing. What we don’t have is SUPPORT for any of our leaders. Why? Because it’s so much easier to sit back and pontificate and mock and criticize than it is to get out there and do SOMEthing, ANYthing to make a positive difference.
I know I’m going to regret this but I’m so sick of everyone sitting back and pointing fingers and griping that the leadership won’t do anything – when all we do is cut their legs out from under them. And then we WONDER why they aren’t effective???
Both Asylum and Foundry were pretty cool spaces. There’s just not enough of a market for those kind of clubs here. Between “Guitar Hero” and karoake and all the lame cover bands, there’s just too much competition for plain-old dance clubs to survive unless they are really on top of their game.
IF the City had anything to do with closing it down, it was probably because they heard more complaints than compliments about it. A politian’s job is do the right thing for the community. If all they hear is ‘shut it down’ then what else would you expect them to do?
@TG-
Where do you get that I said it’s ok to have the crime? I just said there has to be a different way of working with bar owners to keep things under control.
When there are too many calls- then the bar owner gets a choice: hire more security- hire Dayton Cops off duty- until the problem subsides.
Face it: Richard Florida talks about accepting diversity- as long as they are white, gay, urban professionals- and that is only a subset of the population as a whole. HipHop/Ska/House etc type kids- can grow up to be the next computer wizards- but, they’ll leave town too if their hangouts keep getting shut down by authoritarian rule. It’s Footloose- only with gansta rap and a mosh pit.
We don’t do a good job of making allowances for the undesirable youth- how many times have we heard that Third and Main needs to be rid of all the DPS kids?
Anyone propose a different type of transit point other than me? (Sportsplex)
It’s time to talk about what kind of options we’re going to provide- and not just among the 30 yr old and up “Creative Class Catalysts”
“There’s just not enough of a market for those kind of clubs here.”
I was wondering about that…about if this town is too small to support a lot of what we’d like to see, or too square.
“hire more security- hire Dayton Cops off duty- until the problem subsides.”
They could have done that anyway, but didn’t. Maybe they couldn’t afford to.
“Face it: Richard Florida talks about accepting diversity- as long as they are white, gay, urban professionals- and that is only a subset of the population as a whole.”
That is such an unfair statement and it’s just part of the bigger problem David. as is “It’s time to talk about what kind of options we’re going to provide- and not just among the 30 yr old and up “Creative Class Catalysts””
We have Catalysts in their 20s. We’re trying to recruit more. We have a very diverse group of Catalysts period. And we’re all volunteers trying to engage the community to make this a true grass roots effort.
We need your support, not your criticism. There’s no winning in this town. The Coalition gets trashed for hiring a local firm; the city gets trashed for hiring an out of town branding expert (who validated the local firm’s research) and then the local Catalysts get trashed for their efforts.
Down in the Miamisburg the Yellow Rose does good weekend business and has its share of police presence. What does this venue do differently? Do the police down there look the other way since they don’t have Dayton kind of problems? They allow 18+ on weekends, this has to lead to an equal amount of underage drinking problems. Actually, why did the Yellow Rose leave the city ~8 yrs ago in the first place?
David – charging a club per incident is a bad idea. Clubs that are struggling will go out of their way to not call the police even when necessary, and other clubs would simply pay the fine as a cost of doing business. And in the end, how is that any more an effective deterrent than knowing that if your club is constantly requiring police response then your liquor license will be in jeopardy? Bottom line is The Foundry wasn’t a successful business and it went under. Period. You single out The Foundry as an example of the city going out of their way to close a club down, yet just blocks away there are two successful clubs – The Pearl and HammerJax. I don’t see the city trying to close them down, but that is because they aren’t a drain on police resources as they manage their security better. Btw – The Dayton Dirt Collective is an example of the “hangout” you mentioned, and nobody is trying to close that down either. “Richard Florida talks about accepting diversity- as long as they are white, gay, urban professionals”. Funny, everything I’ve read of his says that accepting diversity is being tolerant of ALL groups. Again, I will ask the question – what is your problem with a few grassroots projects being done by average citizens? Local leadership has nothing to do with the projects being done, and nobody said it was the be-all-end solution. I offered to answer whatever questions you have about what we’re doing but it is now obvious you don’t want to be informed; you simply want to continue on ignorantly bashing it. I see you continue to have an axe to grind with anybody that has a leadership position in this city, or anybody doing something that wasn’t first thought up by you, or anybody that simply disagrees with your opinions. The “those are taxpaying citizens too, they just don’t rub elbows with people like you.” comment was bush-league. Nowhere in my first comment did I say anything insulting to you but you came out swinging… Read more »
TG and Bill Pote are living proof that Papa Ubu was not a parody. He held a mirror to reality, and when the urban vanguardists did not like the critical light it casted upon them, they threw stones. They talk about creating a ‘vibrant urban core’, but are using a building plan for Potemkin Village.
Autre temps, autre moeurs…
Teresa and Bill-
You are new to this, and it shows. We aren’t going to get anywhere by all singing kum bay yah and hoping it all works. With change comes questions- and you should welcome them.
This really started as a question about how the City handled both of these clubs- that catered to the same crowd that we often complain about at Third and Main. Your precious “creative catalyst” group was just a throw in-
yet- you start whining louder than a tornado sired- and Bill-other than suggesting you were wearing rose colored specs- I didn’t call you “bush league” or “ignorant”- you need to moderate yourself there.
I’ve been doing this long before you put up Most Metro- and involved in the local politics and urban movers since you were in grade school. Half the things you are just starting to think about- Bill Rain and I and and a few others were talking about 15 years ago.
Teresa- don’t take things so personally.
Why don’t you move to Dayton and run for Mayor?
Put your body where your money is – so to speak.
“I’ve been doing this long before you put up Most Metro- and involved in the local politics and urban movers since you were in grade school. Half the things you are just starting to think about- Bill Rain and I and and a few others were talking about 15 years ago.” And maybe that’s part of the problem – TALKING ABOUT not DOING. It’s not a personal slam against you or Bill – just gets to the point about we need people to step up and DO something, not just talk about it – or hurl insults at those who are at least trying to do something that makes a difference. As for taking things personally – it is personal – back off on the catalysts and give us the chance to work through the grassroots efforts of the community to make something happen. If we get to the end and have failed, then you can say I told you so. In the mean time, get involved in a meaningful way or get out of the way. Your insidious comments do far more harm than good. “Why don’t you move to Dayton and run for Mayor? Put your body where your money is – so to speak.” I have invested $1.5m in YOUR neighborhood to date, which won a national award as a result, thank you and you’re welcome! I have no desire to run for a political office in Dayton or Beavercreek because I believe I can be more effective if I remain independent. I am involved as a Creative Class Catalyst so I can continue to put my money where my mouth is. To me all of this is personal – the Forbes article, the slams against the City. I am a Dayton Original – and when you mock the City, you mock me. I’m sorry but lately I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore. This is MY town and I will do everything within my power to make it better. And all I ask is that everyone else in this town take… Read more »
People got shot at The Foundry – and a lot of losers hung out there. Plain and simple it was dangerous. But more to the point, and I have run and owned bars, is that people who own bars generally (not me) steal from themselves and treat it like a toilet. The staff is generally made up of losers who steal. You have to put a lot of time, AND I MEAN A LOT, to find adequate people, not even good, to help you run that type of business.
Alcohol leads to drugs often, then to violence often. NOT ALWAYS. but when you have a bunch of losers stealing from a group of people who treat their business like a toilet you somehow come up with the conclusion that cops and liquor licenses were to blame? If the owners would have stepped up and cleaned the staff up and added more security then it would have helped. But that is hard to do when you steal from yourself, you are always high, and are a loser who happens to own a bar.
You can make money in the bar business. I did a little. But it was too much of a pain in the ass to deal with loser drunks and loser drug addicts and loser staff who steal and cheat you. I figured out a way to make money in other businesses. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE BARS, and I am one of the drunks who loves to hang out in them. But to own one is a pain in the ass – and they did steal from themselves, like 98% of other bar owners.
Did not Bill Rain bail on Dayton and move to Tampa.
Did he not leave a bunch of property unfinished?
“I have invested $1.5m in YOUR neighborhood”
tg, you don’t get it. David wants your money, more money, my money, rich people money. etc to fund his bullshit ideas that make little sense. He wants to TAX THE HELL OF OF THEM – this is the mentality of guys who think they know it all. My suggestion is to not invest another dime in LOSER VISION – VISION BY LIBERALS. All they want is your money, and they never put in their own money.
He asks people to comment then complains that they did not agree with him. David is the typical liberal. He says he believes in free speech but edits comments all the time, he says he believes in civil rights but can’t understand that a bar owners rights are violated when he/she can not make their own business decisions, he wants to take fast food out of poor areas bc he does not want people to get fat yet fails to realize that this is a violation of civil liberties. He wants you to fix up houses but leaves his properties to rot. I could go on and on.
for the record: I don’t edit the hell of comments.
for the record: yes I need to do some painting.
for the record: Bill Rain did do quite a bit- before he moved- if it wasn’t for him- there would be 3 less MAJOR downtown housing developments (Lofts on St. Clair, Ice Avenue Lofts, The Cannery). We tried like hell to realign the priority boards- to expand the CBD board to include all the ring historic districts as one unit- for starters- to no avail.
And- Tereasa, I’ve put in at least $500K into South Park- long before there was a guaranteed return- and have put in thousands of volunteer hours. I’m not unappreciative of what you’ve done- it’s just you are telling me how and what to say, ignoring the fact that I’ve been living this thing for 21 years. You’ve been doing it vicariously with a check book and driving home to the ‘burbs.
To each their own.
All this is pushing me to say in a new post is: while we’re saying we want “Dayton originals” we have to ask Richard Florida if it’s ok first (not from Dayton) and then go to Nashville to get a logo done- excuse me: do you see anything hypocritical.
I hate to tell you- if you want your brand to be believed, you best understand that “originals” don’t walk in lock step – they like things syncopated. You need to learn a new dance.
David – You’ve been living it the last 21 years – I lived it my first 35 years (South Park, Shroyer Park, Walnut Hills, Belmont, and Patterson Park) before our businesses brought us to Beavercreek. I’d love to know what “Guaranteed Return” you’re talking about – I’ve lost money on all three houses I’ve sold so far and don’t see the trend changing for the next 3-4 at least. Florida’s group has given us a framework and data, the rest has all been developed by locals – and continues to be done by locals. The Nashville firm didn’t do the artwork – a local firm P/O/N did it – and part of the design is the idea of a City employee (although I don’t know why they aren’t publicizing that fact). They went outside to get an objective point of view on the data and all it did was confirm what Turner Effect already discovered with their work. I know you and the rest of South Park and much of the City leadership appreciates what MD & I’ve done in South Park. What gets old is I can’t walk into any South Park event without someone coming up to me to tell me I HAVE to buy such and such an eyesore near them. And that’s my point about the Community’s approach to the current leadership – we expect THEM to create the change we desire – my point is that WE have to BE that change. This City will start to thrive again when everyone gets off their butt and does something instead of expecting the next guy to do it for them. And sweetheart, I know telling you what to say or how to say it is an exercise in futility. What I am asking you to do is to back off of the Catalysts and give us a chance. I’m asking for your support instead of your sarcasm. Everyone of the five initiatives is the brainchild of one of the catalysts who is either from the Dayton region originally or living here now. I’m asking you to… Read more »
TG and Bill – As a member of the Dayton Creative Class, a Dayton Original, and a supporter of updayton. Initiative (I’m making the website for them) I don’t really understand where you are coming from. Groupthink – Do you know what that is? Wikipedia says that it is “a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas”. All that I see David doing is testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas, which is exactly what we need from Dayton Originals. I spoke with another catalyst this morning (whom I will not name) about some details with the group that I could help with, and he told me that he was not here to tell everyone in the group what to do. This is about those of us who are interested in supporting this city doing what we are good at and making changes and taking charge over what happens here. David is taking charge over what he believes he can do to help change this city. It seems to me (though I can’t speak for him) that it is people like David who are most behind you, and just don’t want you to screw up with a whole bunch of talk and no action. The Catalysts are moving slow, too slow, and aren’t talking about the issues that matter. Sure, the Foundry may have been a bit of an upsetting environment, but that could have changed. Just like if you fire an employee, it takes twice the cost and time to get a new employee than to correct the current one. If you trash the Foundry, it will take us twice as long to build up a new and better one than reorganizing the place itself. That is…if the effort is ever put in to do something like that again. I don’t see David actually rallying against the Catalysts. All he is doing is posting a few blogs, and you should heed what he has to say. Cause like it or not, he is a Dayton Original…and… Read more »
Good riddance to the Foundry, whatever the reason. That place was a disaster. If you want boom-chicka-boom music and alcohol, there’s a handful of other places that will easily fulfill this need. And your chances of being MURDERED are probably slightly less.
(Your chances of getting an STD are about the same, however.)
As a frequently performer and attendee of the Dayton Dirt Collective, I can tell you that it’s apples and oranges. The DDC is a room with a PA and some chairs… It’s a DIY music venue run by a handful of punk and indie kids – non-secular, all ages, anyone can play, don’t be an asshole.
Now, maybe the DDC fosters the same kind of ‘making the scene’ mentality that a dance club might, but an escalating argument about which Fugazi album is better (Repeater) is 10x more likely than a coked up stabbing…
(I’d like to point out that as an indie music elitist, I also enjoy getting drunk and dancing with half-naked girls on occasion – thank you, The Pearl.)
Also, I imagine Gene has some kind of life-sized cutout of David in his kitchen.
They eat breakfast together. The cutout scares Gene’s cats.
Another Guy….care to elaborate on this…
“The Catalysts are moving slow, too slow, and aren’t talking about the issues that matter. “
Online Dayton’s family of squabbling siblings.
…but still on the same team.
I’d love to.
I’ve seen three meetings since the updayton initiative began. I’ve seen just a few people discussing any topics at all on the Most Metro website (which could be utilized in a much better way). I’m subscribed to the Dayton Create website and many various Dayton websites that have been created, and have heard few updates on what is actually being done in the Dayton area to make changes.
There are dozens if not hundreds of small art, music, and creative venues in the Dayton area that are not being utilized, we keep adding more stuff instead of fixing what we have. The volunteers that come to the meetings are in this mindset of “we have to wait for the leaders to do something” or “i’m volunteering for free, I don’t need to do all of the work I volunteered for right now…I’ll wait a few days”.
What’s more important is that we actually get the people to start doing something. I just spoke at a church convention that I’m sick of talking about talking about doing something. Let’s get up and do it. The important issues at stake are not those that try to find more people to come to Dayton, it’s about finding ways to get the Daytonians staying in Dayton. Who cares if we can bring in a couple hundred more people…that won’t change a darn thing. What will change something is if we help the people already here actually want to do something.
The catalysts are moving fast in the wrong direction….they’re moving slow.
Jeff – Aint that the truth.
“Full disclosure: “another guy works with me, as does Seth.
How many of you know John Neidert?
He’s the Dayton Original- a member of Dayton’s “Creative class” by trade http://studio35photography.com/ and the owner of the Foundry.
Maybe if you knew John- you wouldn’t be so quick to pound the nails in the coffin.
Not only did he take an abandoned foundry and turn it into something- he did it without huge handouts from local government.
As “Another guy” pointed out- “If you trash the Foundry, it will take us twice as long to build up a new and better one than reorganizing the place itself. That is…if the effort is ever put in to do something like that again.”
So while you celebrate the death of the Foundry- how is that different than mourning the loss of The Blue Moon, John Henry’s, Olivias, Chins and Elbos, Mediterra, Thomatos, Rockwells etc?
Dayton now has one less place to hear music and dance.
How is that GOOD?
Again- the Catalysts could have tried to work to save the Foundry- and it’s liquor licenses- by working WITH John- and trying to make it a positive place instead of slamming it.
I have no compassion for Bill Pote or TG with their whine about me attacking them. Go take John Neidert to lunch- ask him how you can help him pay his bank notes- how to turn the place around tomorrow- instead of organizing another film festival etc.
Don’t forget also that not everyone likes film festivals. Some people like a good place to go dance and have fun while listening to lud music and having a beer with their friends.
Dayton Originals aren’t necessarily all like us.
“Again- the Catalysts could have tried to work to save the Foundry- and it’s liquor licenses- by working WITH John- and trying to make it a positive place instead of slamming it.” Whoa! Back up the bus! How were Catalysts slamming The Foundry? I merely questioned that if illegal activity was happening and the owner apparently wasn’t spending money on additional security – the natural cause & effect to me seems to be they lose their liquor license. Is it DPD’s responsibility to provide his security – using tax payers dollars? Is it the Catalysts job to go in and tell John how to run his business? Where is John’s responsibility as the OWNER to contain his clientele? Did he reach out to ANYone for help with his matter? Did you take him to lunch David and ask him how you can help him pay his bank notes? I’m sorry to hear the Foundry lost its liquor license and I’m sure not celebrating its demise. I’m not the target market so I knew little or nothing of it before this thread, other than they had the reputation of a pretty rough crowd that was causing a lot of problems outside the club. The Catalysts are working on FIVE very specific initiatives. It is not our job to run out and fight every battle in the Community. We’re not not swinging for the fence, we’re looking for a series of sustainable base hits that can 1) add to the quality of life in Dayton to 2) attract and retain the Creative Class while 3) tapping into the creativity of the 70% NOT currently working in creative class jobs. AND, the process is to take a year hammering out details, researching what others in the community are doing/have done and see if there is a way to collaborate and then roll out the product next Spring. Could we be moving faster? Possibly. But is it better to do it right or do it fast? The “This is Dayton” group is now creating sub committees to get the ball rolling – poster contest,… Read more »
“Don’t forget also that not everyone likes film festivals. Some people like a good place to go dance and have fun while listening to lud music and having a beer with their friends.”
And that’s why the Creative Incubator Group is researching and documenting the music scene in Dayton, along with the artist scene.
Please guys, just because you’re not privvy to every detail yet doesn’t mean things aren’t happening behind the scenes.
Oh I completely agree with your last statement tg. I am not accusing the Creative Class of doing nothing. I started off simply playing the Devil’s Advocate to state that it is nonsense to go against David simply because he disagrees.
Then it turned into a “I am noticing something about the initiative that does not make me feel good about it”. I simply notice that it is going slow. I’m a member of three different volunteer organizations, and in each most “volunteers” aren’t actually volunteering anything but a few words of support.
Let’s start doing something.
If I remember correctly the last event (Summer in the City Picnic) was cancelled because not enough people showed up or volunteered to help. We’re volunteering, so let’s work with those that stand to gain something from this immediately. You use other people who are in front and let them think they’re the ones making the decisions, where actually you’re making the decisions from behind. Meet their short term goals, like helping the Foundry, and in return you gain your long term goals. That is, if you pick the right battles to fight.
TG: I didn’t ever suggest that taxpayer money be spent on police at the Foundry. EVER. I said that it should be worked on.
And- why can’t the catalysts post more often? Ask for input? Share ideas with doors wide open? That’s how you BUILD community- instead of trying to do everything quietly.
I throw ideas out- we let them get roasted, toasted, baked or half baked.
Again- stop taking everything as an attack- your aren’t the center of the universe.
I’m starting to wish I’d never thrown in the metaphor….
“There are dozens if not hundreds of small art, music, and creative venues in the Dayton area that are not being utilized”
Yeah, people talk about the Foundry…The one I had high hopes for was Stone Soup Cafe.
I thought had a lot of promise, that seemed to have a connection with the local music and arts crowd, maybe more the fringe artists amd younger artists? I say this because I found out about it via word of mouth from a local photographer who also waited tables at a local music venue. So I figure there was word on the street about this place.
Their grand opening seemed to confirm this, too.
But it ran afoul of the permitting process somehow (what was the ral story there, anwyay?) and never really opened.
I thought that place could have been good.
Oh Well.
If Esrati is just a blowhard with an axe to grind who doesn’t “do” anything except “ignorantly bash” Dayton, its leaders, and its grassroots movements, and if this blog is not a relevant, prominent forum for discussion, then why do you keep reading it and commenting on it?
Face it: You do it because he’s almost always ahead of the curve. Case in point: He’s been blogging about the creative class for at least two and a half years—long before most of you jumped on the bandwagon.
You may not like the messenger, but how can you possibly argue with the message? By definition, true creatives DON’T walk in lock step. They don’t use the secret handshake or wear the magic decoder ring. They know that no matter what it says on your T-shirt, if a thousand other people are wearing it, it’s not “Original”.
If you have what it takes and your “creative catalyst” plan is so great, it should be able to withstand a little criticism. It will succeed inspite of anyone’s opinion. It will pass the test of time. So why the defensiveness? Why are you so threatened by a simple observation?
It doesn’t make any sense, unless you know that you don’t really have anything new to offer and you’re just forming a trendy, elitist clique that substitutes consensus for real leadership and reinforces the status quo.
“then why do you keep reading it and commenting on it?” Maybe it’s because Esrati & I know each other well and like to go at it in public every now and then!?
I’m just really bummed to know I’m not going to get a magic decoder ring now. And I really wanted to get the t-shirt – especially the one that says “I’m Unique…Just like everyone else.”
Umm…Did I mention how great the yoga studio on 5th is? Or maybe we should all go together to the Tibetan center in Walnut Hills for their Thurs night meditation?
I know I sound snarky, but it’s just really overwhelming to read through everyone’s posts. Let’s all step back and pretend for a moment that everyone has positive intent and spends time discussing the city/region because they really want to make it better.
And let me know if you want to take me up on the group meditation thing ;) Wouldn’t that be a sight…
“And let me know if you want to take me up on the group meditation thing Wouldn’t that be a sight…”
Oh dear God – now THAT is a visual! It’s all been worked out – turns out I did a search on the http://www.mcrealestate.org site tonight and discovered I somehow now own one of Esrati’s properties. It’s news to both of us that he sold to me – but I can sure have a lot of fun with owning him now!!!
So here’s the way it works, I let David rant for a month or so without responding, then I jump in and call him on the carpet, then he starts calling me names, and then I try to reason with him and then he tells me not to take things personally. Next time we see each other at the SP Tavern, we’ll hug & play nice.
Bottom line is some good came out of this post – as Cataylsts we have to be more out in the open – and less worried about people like Esrati’s ripping us to shreds – cuz we know he’s going to do it no matter what!
;)
Ok – you want some information about the Creative Class Initiatives, here is some for This is Dayton/Community Pride. This is the email we’ve been sending to anyone interested in participating… Below is a list of the potential committees – and many of those will likely have sub committees or task forces as part of them. The contact liaison from our main committee is provided so you can contact the appropriate person. I cannot thank you enough for your interest in our initiative. We’ve got our work cut out for us, but it will be a lot of fun. Poster Contest – General Public – Contact: Theresa Gasper [email protected] Ultimately we want to blanket the community with large scale posters that reflect positive images & messages to reinforce a sense of community pride. By having a contest, the community shares what they are most proud of. Volunteers for this committee do not need to submit posters – but to organize a contest, market and promote it, select judges, determine where to showcase the winning entries, etc. Poster Contest – K-12 – Contact: Bridget Oaks [email protected] Same concept as above, only tapping into the schools and K-12 community for participation Data Mining & Research. Contact: Donna Martin [email protected] this group is in charge of researching any and all positive things about Dayton that can be funneled to the other groups for distribution and for possibly infiltrating Wikipedia with more positive facts about Dayton. Fun facts, patents, historical data, “Did You Know”, etc. Ambassadors Contact: Diane Graham [email protected] and Sally Struthers [email protected]. This group has two functions. One is going to various chamber, Rotary, Kiwanis, etc type events to talk about what we’re doing; the second is to go out to similar groups as well as various ethnic churchs & organizations to engage their participation so we are actively representing all parts of our community in our projects. You Tube/Video – Temporary Contact: Theresa Gasper [email protected] This is similar to the Poster Contest only in video format. We ultimately want to populate YouTube and other similar web sites with positive material about… Read more »
Seth,
Where can I get a life size cut-out of David for MY kitchen? Why does Gene get special treatment? And ohh, and I have dogs instead of cats… will it have the same effect? Thanks in advance for you reply.
The whole point is that if you really have a critical mass of talented, creative, hip, cool people in a given area, the social and economic fabric automatically transform themselves. It doesn’t take meet-ups or initiatives or committees or a year of planning. Those things are the antithesis of creativity.
By setting up your own bureaucracy, you’re demonstrating that you lack the very quality you’re trying to attract. That isn’t what creative people do, it’s what posers do. Really creative people are too busy doing their own thing to be bothered with a focus group.
If the local government makes the region generally attractive and user-friendly for innovators and intellectuals, the rest of the process takes care of itself. If our local government officials had any creativity or vision, they would understand that. But as I said, bureaucrats tend not to be creative. And when one real visionary offers to lead the way, he gets black-balled and shot down again and again by people who can’t think outside of the box.
Sad.
Donald Phillips almost nailed it with his comment about Potemkin Villages. But Podunkin’ Village is more like it.
In the ‘burg – the easiest part of the process is the creativity and coming up with the ideas – the tough part is implementation. And that’s why all too often plans end up on shelves collecting dust.
We’re working through the implementation process and it’s just not going to happen overnight. Wish it could, but then I haven’t been able to find that perfect magic wand yet.
We’ve taken a lot of these comments to heart and will try to be better at communication – but that’s risky business in this town too. You said “visionary” but you can also say “Champion” – whenever someone takes the lead in this town, they get slaughtered. Think Tony Capizzi & minor league baseball, think David Holmes & RiverScape to name a few.
It is sad, and we’re hoping to buck the trend! In the meantime, if you have thoughts or ideas to share – please do so over at http://www.DaytonCREATE.org
Quoting AnotherGuy: “There are dozens if not hundreds of small art, music, and creative venues in the Dayton area that are not being utilized, we keep adding more stuff instead of fixing what we have.”
Perhaps the main purpose of the DaytonCREATE Creative Incubator team is to research and document the grassroots urban cultural scene that we have here. It’s nearly impossible for one person to know all the great stuff that goes on. But unless I’ve got my head under a rock (and that’s always possible), I’m doubtful that the above quote is true, especially in our target area, downtown. Our point isn’t to duplicate anything, just to determine what is needed and try to catalyze meeting the need. For example, we have absolutely no desire for juried art exhibit space. Not needed. Some have mentioned the great things that the Dayton Dirt Collective kids are doing…I have friends involved there that are eager for us to figure out logistics for our space so that they can perhaps begin using it for larger events that their tiny storefront can’t handle.
Anyone who is interested in better connecting the urban grassroots cultural scene in a positive way is welcome to join us at our meetings on the 1st and 3rd Thursday of the month @5:30 at 20 N. Jefferson. You can e-mail me at [email protected] to double-check time and place.
I think people like Bill and TG represent the hardest position: playing to win in this town. And as the rest of you posers who anonymously sideline yourselves and simply boo their efforts. David can’t play anymore because he’s been cut from every team and all he has left is league of waterboys as cheerleaders.
The Foundry is gone. Like most here, it wasn’t part of our demographic, so other than a symbolic business of urban success, it should mean nothing in the long run. It certainly didn’t attract the creative class I have in mind, and maybe it will be picked up by another investor and change its audience.
So lets start encouraging ideas and be part of solution, not part of the problem. If it’s too hard to figure out where to start, come over to DMM and we’ll find you a spot on the team.
Kate –
The Cannery, Dayton Art Gallery, Dayton Dirt Collective, Sinclair CC ha 6 choirs, about to be 7, has a dozen or more art clubs / groups that have art shows. That’s just one college (the smallest in the city, no doubt) and there are several others in this city. There’s also Oregon District which has several art galleries, and places near the 5/3 field. Perhaps hundreds is a stretch, but dozens is spot on.
I enjoy these discussions and perhaps I am one of the minority who actually finds these “conflicting” discussions actually more beneficial to us by checking to see if we’re doing the right thing. Disagreements happen; I encourage them.
David’s still playing, by the way, and calling people “posers” is not helpful. That’s the type of discussion that does not encourage people to help this city. Doesn’t bother me, just saying that others may not appreciate the thought.
If you didn’t understand what I was getting at with the groupthink thing, I might as well make it obvious that this is NOT what we want. Anyone who is discussing this community is effecting it in some way positively, if nothing but to have a discussion about it.
Kevin- it’s ok if we have history- and you don’t like me. But calling people waterboys isn’t helpful. I’m sorry if you hate me so-guess this is the thanks I get for giving you a paycheck for several years- and having to twist your arm to buy your first house in South Park- and then spending time helping you work on it.
Here is the moment of truth; “It certainly didn’t attract the creative class I have in mind”
That’s the problem with the CC initiative- you seem to have a picture of what the “creative class” is- which goes directly against the “tolerance” part of Florida’s equation.
If I was a lawyer, and I was cross examining you, in a court of law- you just lost your case.
“Not part of ‘our demographic’… didn’t attract the ‘creative class’? So this is Kevin’s idea of the ‘New Dayton’, or is it Kevin’s image of the ‘New Order’? Papa Ubu is alive and well, and living in South Park. Or is it Idi Amin Dada?
Sorry. I was using someone else’s word “posers” that was on the other team. I just have to make sure which team you’re on, Timothy. If you work with David, I would hope he took time to educate you on who Theresa Gasper and Bill Pote are, than let you think they would “screw things up.” After all, they are invested in Dayton beyond a job and words, but with their livelihood and goals.
With that said, I am also invested with money and goals in Dayton. People like Theresa and Bill represent positive change here. I try to support them when I can. I don’t want them to become another Bill Rain and have to leave due to this contagious negativity and push back. When people like the “Papa Ubu’s” come on here and DDN take aim at those who are trying to change the very thing they make fun of, it shows how sick they are. We need support, yet criticism in a constructful way. We have a long way to go.
For the record, I saw more positive change in this city with Mike Turner at the helm. We need that investment vision again. For the current administration, balancing budgets doesn’t do it.
Timothy, thanks for starting a list…but again, we have no interest in art gallery space, which is what the Cannery & the OD spaces are. The Chairwoman of the CADC is on our team. My dad is the one who intiated the Oregon Arts District. I mentioned friends at the DDC being excited at the prospect of being able to use a bigger space…
I’m curious to know more about Sinclair art clubs and if there’s a way we can better connect them to the city and get them out of the bubble of the Sinclair campus.
Everyone please keep on sending ideas of groups & individuals we should be talking to, thanks.
David, I am well aware of what you did and didn’t do for me. No need to credit yourself here for it. I’m not going to drag out our past here.
I didn’t realize this was a cross examination. Okay, I don’t represent Richard Florida’s points of view. I do have an idea what this creative class is. And yes I do have some social stereotypical views. I work with a creative class and as do you. So I do have an idea what I’d like to be behind it and they are not all gay white men. Responsible, self sufficient tax paying human beings is a start to this creative class and an MO to make the urban core better. Can we agree on that?
Kevin- attacking Bill Rain is another example of your constant state of misery. Bill Rain didn’t “have to leave town” as you put it. He was hired by one of the countries largest real estate developers to drive development. He’s putting the wraps on a really impressive project converting an old hospital into assisted living and office/retail space.
As to Mike Turner- keep drinking the cool aid. He put on airs of competency, but was unable to find 2 friends on a City Commission through 3 election cycles- and it takes 3 votes to get anything done. He did manage to get in a pissing match with Dave Holmes- who took his Reynolds and Reynolds away to Kettering. Yeah, Mike Turner was a true “winner.”
Quoting Kevin – “I just have to make sure which team you’re on, Timothy.”
Wait, there are teams? Which team am I on? Cause I thought we were all on the same team here. And yes, I know Bill Pote and TG. I haven’t met them personally but I’ve read a lot of what they’ve had to say, and I’m a member of the DMM forum (timothy.stiffler).
Kate – I’d be glad to send you more information about Sinclair clubs. I brought it up at the last updayton meeting that I attended, and will bring it up again tomorrow at the next meeting. I don’t understand why we’re not interested in those, though…cause those are major parts of Dayton.