The bigger downtown session

I attended the planning session at c{space on Jefferson last night, with a crowd of about 100. It reminded me of every other planning session, going back to the vision 20/20 plan- a professional facilitator, writing ideas down on big post-its, letting people add their 3 cents worth. There were some good ideas, and passionate people.

This one was a bit different because one person got unlimited time at the microphone- our new shadow mayor/kingmaker Dr. Mike Ervin. Ross Perot once said “If you ever want to see anything get done, find a monomaniac on a mission” or something close to that- and Ervin is a man on a mission. He has the benefit of being loaded so that he doesn’t have to sweat the consequences of ticking off anyone – sort of like having a gun at a knife fight. He has his vision- which is probably the clearest new-urbanist vision we’ve seen in this community. He doesn’t seem to be willing to tackle uni-gov yet, but is instead focusing on what he calls a greater downtown.

Great. Fine.

But, without getting the political and business communities involved, relying on the many armchair planners won’t get the programs implemented. For that, he’ll have to get some political juice going- and not just one or two people in power, but a majority of them. Like it or not, these are the people who ultimately hold the purse strings and set policy.

With the upcoming election, maybe he’ll sponsor some debates, hell, maybe even put candidates through an “Apprentice” type challenge, so voters can see who has the plan, gets the vision or has real ideas that they want to advance (other than their own political careers).

We’ve seen these planning sessions before- now, what’s going to make this one different?

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Donald PhillipsSammy76GeneJeffGreg Hunter Recent comment authors
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Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

True that David. Most of these sessions are nothing more than window dressing so that “the powers that be” can check off a box saying that the considered other alternatives.

The only way to enhance Downtown is choke off sprawl. The overbuilding and credit crisis almost worked until the idiots decided to waste tax dollars to perpetuate suburbia. Cue Kunstler. Obama, same old same old.

Forest is Unigov all else is a waste of time!


I think this effort does have at least one bank on board. Maybe they need more business types? I dont know how “connected” Ervin is in the business world, but he IS a contributor to various GOP political types.


you can’t stop sprawl……from a legal stand point. this ain’t oregon.

how about cleaning up the city and being creative…..


Is there a reason, other than culture, that you can’t have a growth boundary in Ohio? Is it because we have Metro there and there is no equivalent (UniGov) here? Also, who is this Mike Ervin guy? Any links?


Growth boundary? What about the rights of land owners?

I say let people build where they want to, so long as the land is available to develop. People use about 5% of the land in the United States to live – we have plenty of land. I say that if the urban core is not working – this may include Dayton – let it rot. Who cares? Why save something only a few of us want. Heck, people in Dayton want it all but don’t want to pay for any of it.

I want Dayton to succeed. I want a new hockey arena. Heck, I am willing to pay for a new arena. But there is no God given right that Dayton, DTown especially, is guaranteed of anything, including success.

Water seeks its own level. So should cities…… if only 10% want and are willing to pay for a new hockey complex well then let Austin Pike go for it……… But I still think that Dayton is the answer, but again no guarantees and no God given right to have anything. It’s all about people, the people that live here.

In the near future when cities like Dayton completely die, run them over with a bulldozer. Hopefully, we can understand that actually could happen.

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

What about the rights of land owners?

What about the rights of the taxpayer? Geno, my son, if you review the quotes from Upton Sinclair concerning the newspaper from post the other day on this Esrati thread, then you would be informed that you are ill informed. The taxpayers have un wittingly elected the foxes in charge of the henhouse, because it serves the newspaper’s corporate interests to do so.

I say let people build where they want to, so long as the land is available to develop

I am with you, let RG Properties, self finance the infrastructure, but not with my tax dollars Geno. This crap is corporate welfare OR SOCIALISM Geno. Your brain has been washed to accept this as progress, part of free market capitalism. Not a chance. I would rather, as a taxpayer, own the power production company (DP&L) than the roads. Hit CTRL ALT DEL on that brain Gene.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

– Upton Sinclair


Generally, I think most projects should be without government financing. A project like this could use it, so If Dayton or Montgomery County feel that it is in their best interest to be involved well let them decide what is best for them. Our politician’s always f*ck us, I just want to see something for my cash besides roads. I rather throw my tax dollars at something I can attend, ie the arena, than give it to a bunch a GD Cell Phone owning, Flat Screen TV Buying, I GOTS ME A CAR AND WEED AND CRACK MO FO’s who take my money and simply wipe their ass with it bc they don’t want to work. I just want my tax money to better serve me, is that wrong? We have little rights, little influence as a whole when it comes to taxes. We may fight like hell to get a tax added or subtracted, but name any one tax over the last 50 years that has been added or subtracted that totals a large percent of your taxes as a whole? Our taxes fluctuate…. but it never is more than 20% (income tax) for the average guy and added taxes for arenas or your house or schools is always less than 1% – not a huge deal. The question is where does it end? The answer is it does not. Tax payers are always screwed. I hate taxes. We are way over taxed, businesses are over taxed. Taxes are bad. But a tax for a road or an arena is better than government handouts to people who have 14 kids. Enough is enough. I was not put on earth to deal with other people’s problems (like the 14 kids thing). I donate time and money and earn a living, I pay a lot of taxes. Within reason taxes are needed and acceptable. An Arena tax is something even I would agree to. Take away part of the taxes we pay for 5 Rivers Metro Joke and fund the arena. 5 Rivers Metro Joke does a great job, but the… Read more »


BTW, the rights of the land owners I am referring to are the land owners in the “sprawl” areas. I do not want to tell people that they can not sell their land to build homes. People are scared it is eating up farm land, but truth be told it is such a small, small percent that it is not worth worrying about. Our society, Dayton specifically, will get back the a vibrant urban core (DTown and beyond) when the cost of living in suburbia becomes to great. It is that simple. Why put a number, a limit on it? When we put limits on things then these limits may extend to every aspect of our lives, if you know what I mean. Like………let’s limit marriage to a man and a woman………. let’s limit the amount of money an entrepreneur can make when he/she opens a new coffee shop………

The most fair thing is to limit as little as possible, so long as you are not infringing on another person’s rights. Living in Warren county is not infringing on the taxpayer in South Park.

Limits can be bad. And where do they end?

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

People are scared it is eating up farm land, but truth be told it is such a small, small percent that it is not worth worrying about.

You could never admit that you are WRONG. All Farmland is not created equal Geno. Some can never be replaced. But hey, in the future I will be on all protein diet with you as a main course. No chianti and fava beans for me – Liver first.

Bucharest is in Romania. Budapest is in Hungary. And no effing tax breaks for me. You have to be out of the country 330 days in year to qualify for 85K deduction.

Government should preserve the correct things and 5 Rivers is one, but dissuade the wrong things like Buying a House, Having Kids or a Tax Break for a Hummer – Stupid, but hey you probably had the same history teacher as Austria.


Wrong about what? The United State has plenty of farm land. Over half our land that is “farm-able” is not even used – and may never need to be used. Get over yourself.


I love the Romantic notion of Urban, trollies, coffee shops, head shops, Dtown Condos, art, music, etc………

Yet, THE MAJORITY does not want this, rather seek their own “life” but liberals are not willing to accept the majority in this case.

We throw away food bc we produce to much. Relax


“I love the Romantic notion of Urban, trollies, coffee shops, head shops, Dtown Condos, art, music, etc………

Yet, THE MAJORITY does not want this, rather seek their own “life” but liberals are not willing to accept the majority in this case.”

Good point. I’d say the liberals who want that romantic notion of a city leave Dayton for cities where this is a reality. The ones that remain here probably should accept the reality of the place and get their ‘urban fix’ via weekend trips to other places, like I do.

Cincinnati is only a 45 minute drive, and they have a true city market at Findlay Market. For a longer drive and a longer visit there is Chicago, only five hours away. Leave at 6 AM, and with the time zone change your there aroun 10 or 11 AM

If there really was a market here for the “romantic notion” we’d be seeing it by now.


Bigger, busier cities than Dayton include C-Bus, Indy, Louisville, St Louis, Nashville.

Even close dieing cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Toledo, Canton, Akron, Youngstown.

Cities like Dayton but doing better, like Lexington and Grand Rapids.

You already have Chi and Cin, so these are your options for weekend trips for the Urban high.

Travel to the cities and take the best of what they have and put it here in Dayton (Dayton style.)

Dog parks. Bike Paths. Fun, but all three of those people who would use them are going to move out of town soon.


Heck, maybe UD Arena will fall down and UD can access land in the ACTUAL Downtown and put a 15k seat arena there……. it is just a matter of time and a pack of matches to get that done too.

Donald Phillips
Donald Phillips

I agree with Mr. Gene & Mr. Jeff. Trouble is, the Most Metroids do not and instead forever try to shovel mercury with pitchforks. As I live in Brooklyn, NY, I get pleanty of urban fix. But Dayton ain’t that bad; the youngsters seems to be making a scene without tax-payer money or romantic whool gathering. All these urban liberal “what ifs” and “if onlys” are opium parlour fantasias.

Just be here now!


I do agree that Dayton is not as bad as people say, and on occasion that includes stuff i say regarding Dayton, in particular to DTown. David always says we should build on our strengths, which I agree.

It will never be perfect and it is what YOU make of it. If you want it to be miserable, it will be. If you want it to be active and fun, you can control that with attitude and optimism.

I do think we need better leadership (by voting) and better/more organized thought (esp in the Oregon Dist.)

I still think we need an arena for hockey. It think it would be fun and can be incorporated into citizens daily lives easier than the baseball field.


“Government should preserve the correct things and 5 Rivers is one”

Why is 5 Rivers a correct thing? Who determines that Greg, you?

Government should give no one any incentives for anything. Set a low tax rate and be done with it. 5 Rivers is nice, but all that money they have is somewhat of a waste – give it back to the people who pay it and don’t use it. Some people who have the time, energy, and resources are welcome to have kids in my opinion. Those bottom feeders (you know them as welfare recipiants and other cry baby leaches) should think twice before burdening society and neglecting unwanted children.

I like 5RMP – but why do they DESERVE it when people are starving and without clothes and homes…..

Why are you anti-kids? If you are so negative in regards to the population of this world I suggest you stop by my house and use my gun – you too are TAKING from this world, so that make you as selfish as the next guy. Get real.

We should tax people who live in Hungry, so you are lucky Gregy.

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

Why are you anti-kids

Look Gene, I see the future and it is not pretty, so good luck but participate by reading this thread and then come on back.

If you are so negative in regards to the population of this world I suggest you stop by my house and use my gun

Here is a great answer Gene

A couple of years ago I took an Environmental Science class at the local university and towards the end of the semester I joked to the professor that after digesting the material from his class that I had come to the conclusion that I should kill myself. He was very quick and without a moments hesitation he replied:

Before you do that you need to convince 5 billion other people to go with you.

That is point that I am making Gene, it is about shared sacrifice for what is the right way to live Gene. I see bad things happening already and the bubble is just bursting. How is the housing bubble working out for everyone? It is a stupid way to live Gene, sucking other people dry because you can, all the while being aided and abetted by the government, with nary a peep from the DDN.

Gene, Take a little time and read about trying to Farm. It hits every point about modern society and it’s foundation based non a renewable resource.


Geez Greg, evidently you have never has a good day in your life.

Grow up. And when you get back to Dayton i will be happy to load the gun for you.

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

Geno, I have/had a Great Life. I love it too much to go out with a gun, yours especially. Here are a few quotes.

Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it.

Sometimes I worry about being a success in a mediocre world.

– Jane Wagner

Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

– Ernest Hemingway


You are soooooooo smart Greg, and sooooooooo happy.

Losers like quotes bc they can’t come up with their own thoughts.

You remind me of that Hungarian Family that lives in North Dayton – so you should move to Hungry.

Greg, you are not successful.

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

I know I am beatingl my head against a wall as this entire post proves the point.

The “vibrant” cities that were pointed out have unique circumstances or are blessed to have natural growth boudaries.

Natural – cincinnati, Chicago, Brooklyn
Unique – state tax sucking capitals (cbus, Indy) crazy old people with money who want to live forever (grand rapids) a green industry that requres farm land (Lexington) Atlanta (solved it’s race problems in the 60s

Now I have posted all this data before with links backing up claims, but Gene just spouts whatever he heard someone say, no links just rhetoric. What the hell it seems to work, but this lack of intellectual curiosity is par for the Dayton course and is really evidence of a lazy individual.

Barriers to growth make people work it out


Greg, I never said they were vibrant, rather pointing out weekend getaways for people to explore ideas first hand. Thanks for reading my post properly.

Barriers to growth is evil… it can be applied to anything anywhere. Good luck in Hungry.

Why is 5RMP a “correct” thing?

Why are barriers to growth good?

Why do we use only 50% of our farm land?

You are the one that can not or will not answer my question.

Sprawl is good……………..

you feed off this earth just as much as the next guy greg, frickin hippy