Sprawl. It’s a gas.

If you have a 900-square-foot house, it’s less costly to heat, cool, maintain and easier to clean, secure and furnish than a 4000-sq.-ft. McMansion- especially if you are only one person. It also takes a lot less time from end to end, or top to bottom.

Same goes for a city. If you are on an island, like Manhattan- you build up more than out. You put a subway underneath- you save space by not expecting everyone to drive to work. Think about how many parking spaces a 100-story parking building would take- if everyone came in by car, alone? Now do you see the stupidity of requiring x number of parking spaces per square foot of finished space? If the Kettering Tower needed a surface parking lot using the equation of 1 spot for every 300 sq ft (a big cubicle) you’d cover all of downtown Dayton.

The same goes for our city- which is “our house.” The bigger it gets- the more it costs us- especially if it’s split up among fewer and fewer people. Every road, every foot of utilities, every school, police station, library, etc. costs all of us. The more we add, the more it costs. And we’re not even looking at the energy side of things- we’re just talking about providing the infrastructure.

Moving from here to there costs us in gas, lots of which comes from people we don’t particularly like. The more we have to drive- the more gas we consume, the whole thing gets ugly- and inefficient.

So even though they’ve never met a new interchange they didn’t like, the Dayton Daily News Editorial board just started to realize that our car-culture is very expensive:

So the car-centered lifestyle still looks relatively attractive, notwithstanding all the warnings we as a country have received about the unreliability of oil supplies and the unreliability of oil prices.

As a community — a region — that continues to play the car card, we should be among the leaders in pushing for ways to make it a better card: for cars that are more energy-efficient, for cars that run on alternative fuels, and for new supplemental forms of transportation — like trains and better transit systems.

It’s just a matter of hedging a big bet.

via Editorial: Growth along I-75 requires new focus on energy | A Matter of Opinion.

Of course they put their new print technology center in a cornfield in Warren County long ago.

However their thinking is so pedestrian (pun intended) that the best they can come up with is higher efficiency cars, new fuels or better public transit. Not exactly the answers we need. Not even interesting enough to start a good debate.

In order for the Dayton region to catch up with progressive places that passed anti-sprawl legislation long ago, or embraced public transit, or “complete streets” for bike commuting- we need to come up with much more powerful ideas:

Repopulate the core: Dayton has an abundance of cheap housing. It’s also a big HUBzone. The open H1B visas for investing and importing foreigners into these areas would be a bold way to strengthen both the core and the nation- letting industry pay the tab. I talked about it here first: crazy economic development idea.

Instead of building offices and plants far away from workforces- or forcing commutes, which cost social capital in terms of unproductive time, and add wear and tear on roads and burn up fuel- why not reward companies and employees with a walk to work tax credit? The less we drive the healthier and wealthier we will be.

Public transit is fine, but must it be limited to “light rail” or trains or even traditional transit systems? Is bike share a way to move people around in dense areas that saves us wear and tear on roads? Cuts gas consumption? For several million dollars we can have something that puts Dayton on the map- and cuts down the costs of moving around short distances.

Or maybe a folding electric bike- from YikeBike. It’s an amazing compact folding electric bicycle. Watch the video:

Is this an alternative?

Or a low-cost monorail system like the Urbanaut? Older versions like the ones at Disneyland capture the imagination of the city of the future- yet we just spent $77 million on just another highway interchange.

When cities first sprouted up they were typically near rivers, natural ports, easily defensible positions or beautiful vistas. All are natural features that can’t be replicated. Now, we’re locked into the idea of putting things next to off-ramps because, well, we take the car for granted. Once you start building things for people again, instead of cars, we’ll look back at these excesses and wonder why.

Today’s Dayton Grassroots Daily Show talks about the relationship between the cost of energy and the cost of sprawl. Watch it and put on your thinking cap- is there a better way to meet the challenges of having less people live in a bigger area who are totally dependent on cheap energy?

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183 Responses

  1. Drexel Dave Sparks April 17, 2010 / 7:24 pm
    He’s got about 120 something podcasts on the subject at kunstlercast.com. What exactly wasn’t a “good argument” Gene? You are never seem to be very specific, always general. I can’t wait to hear the debate between him and the guy at the whatever think tank. Kunstler is just damn funny too.
    I think he does an even better job of eviscerating the concept of the suburban living arrangement here in this Ted presentation:
    James Howard Kustler, The Tragedy of Suburbia:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ
    Take it easy.
     
  2. Jesse April 17, 2010 / 10:05 pm
    David L,
    Even moderates do not consider the US a capitalist nation.  They have called us a mixed economy since the end of  World War 1.
    Political fascism and economic fascism are different.  I didn’t say that we were totalitarians.  I said we are living in an economic fascist state.
    US Government as percentage of GDP 44%.  Government control via control of the biggest private sectors; healthcare, banking, education, almost complete.
     
    Also, legal tender laws are misrepresented by you there.  I don’t want to be able to force people to accept my “Jesse Dollar”, however, I am compelled by the State to accept payment in US Dollars regardless as to the contract we have created.
     
  3. Jesse April 17, 2010 / 10:08 pm

    David L,
    Even moderates do not consider the US a capitalist nation.  They have called us a mixed economy since the end of  World War 1.
    Political fascism and economic fascism are different.  I didn’t say that we were totalitarians.  I said we are living in an economic fascist state.
    US Government as percentage of GDP 44%.  Government control via control of the biggest private sectors; healthcare, banking, education, almost complete.
     
    Also, legal tender laws are misrepresented by you there.  I don’t want to be able to force people to accept my “Jesse Dollar”, however, I am compelled by the State to accept payment in US Dollars regardless as to the contract we have created.

  4. Ice Bandit April 17, 2010 / 11:14 pm
      I think he does an even better job of eviscerating the concept of the suburban living arrangement here in this Ted presentation: James Howard Kustler, The Tragedy of Suburbia: (Drexel Dave)

      Yeah Dave, it’s an absolute tragedy what’s going on out in the ‘burbs. People interacting with mutual respect while in relative safety. Folks taking an active role in the education of their kids. Cops who think they are supposed to be custodians of the peace and not mop-up crews, social workers and ersatz tax collectors. Of course, the esteemed and infallible James Howard Kustler disagrees with all this tranquility because he dislikes suburban architecture. Places nobody will care about, Kustler, on sabbatical from Mount Olympus, opines. Of course, heretics may argue that each of this town’s suburbs, from Xenia’s mixture of pre- and post disaster buildings to Phillipsburg’s American Gothic ambiance, has a distinctive and unique character. Having spent time in a combat zone himself, the Old Bandito can dispell one of Kustler’s conerns; the GIs in Iraq are just as passionate about their rural and suburban homes as Kustler is about questioning their zeal in defending such places. One of the most schizophrenic aspects of Esrati.com is the complaining of city dwellers about crime, dysfunction, drama, criminal neighbors, pathetic schools and political and bureaucratic indifference while simultaneously dissing suburbanites and wondering why they won’t leave their safe and sane enclaves and dive right into the dank, troubled and bankrupt urban maelstrom…….

  5. Gene April 18, 2010 / 9:01 am
    Well, first, we have a lot of farm land. Losing a little farm land in the “Springboros” of the world is hardly losing at all. In the case of Dayton and sprawl, we have been growing slowly out, and the out tends to be greatest toward the big city south, Cincinnati. We have not over developed to the North or West or East. Out county population is 150k to 200k people more than it was 40 to 50 years ago. Growth is good.

    The dots on the map like Springboro have been around a long while. Settled in 1796, around the time on the great big city of Dayton, Springboro was settled. My point here is that for 200 plus year we (via local, county, state and federal tax monies) have subsidized Dayton’s growth. In the 1980’s Springboro wanted to take a different course. It is subsidized by the EAXACT SAME FRICKIN GOVT that subsidized Dayton. Dayton does not get to “win by default.” I am sick of loser liberal mentality.

    Why does Dayton get all of the attention to growth, while Springboro was left out in the cold for 200 years? BC Springboro wanted to be small and rural, and once they “decided” that 200 years ago then they have to stick with that. Well that is bullshit.

    I dont agree with subsidizing Springboro, but to be fair we (the govt) via taxes subsidized the likes of Dayton for decades while ignoring small towns. What did that get us? A bunch of criminals that made people move. Was that fair then? What seems more “fair” to me is that a person, a town, a city can change and be what it wants to be. If Springboro has new folks that think suburban life is the way, and grow and convince others of the same, then great for them. We are worried about tax dollars funding this? Well, I don’t like that, but the fact remains Dayton benefited from the same kind of tax funding and the was alright at the time.

    When talking about anti-sprawl, he should have highlighted the bennies of living in the city. He makes no points on why to live in the city. He is highlighting cities that are not Dayton. He mentions the mid west, but talks about New York. WTF? That was not specific. You can not compare NYC to the midwest. We have land. We can grow. We have a shit pile of farm land, from Ohio to Colorado and beyond. We have so much land that we pay people not to grow things. We have so much land west of here that the govt of the states own plots of land so big it would make Montgomery County seem like a dot on the map. The point? That land is not used, and will never be used bc there is sooooo much of it. We can grow all our wheat and corn in three states.

    Specific enough? He did not say anything but he hates sprwal bc of depletion of farms (not a big deal, exageratting the problem), govt money going towards it (which I agree) and well he just does not like it bc it does not seem fair (BFD, live with it pal, this world aint all yours.) So while little shit urban dwellers complain about areas that are only 12 or 15 miles from DOWNTOWN DAYTON (not a big long stretch of area folks) you fail to realize those living in comfort in the suburbia are the ones who actually pay the taxes to our govt, you know the money you liberal folks cant get enough of. If 53% of the people pay federal income tax, and 400k of the 550k people in this county live “outside” of Dayton well then it should not be hard to figuare out that those you hate for living “out” are the ones that are flipping the bill for everything. So grow up and live with the fact that those paying for the majority of this country want a little space to live. That is the least we should do for the want who are picking up the check.

    Why are urban folk so jealous of suburbia? Why would you want neighbors who don’t want to live next to you? Why force those that feed us?

  6. David Lauri April 18, 2010 / 11:05 am
    I am compelled by the State to accept payment in US Dollars regardless as to the contract we have created.
     
    Jesse, you are incorrect.
     
    If you enter into a contract in which the method of payment has not been specified, then yes, you must accept legal tender if offered to satisfy a debt owed you.  However, you are under no obligation to enter into contracts that do not specify alternate methods of payment.  If you want to offer goods or services but do not wish to accept U.S. dollars, no government in the United States is going to compel you to do otherwise.
     
    For more information, read “Legal Tender” by Dror Goldberg of Bar Ilan University.  He gives an example:

    suppose that before agreeing on the quantity of apples to be delivered, the seller states (e.g., by posting a sign near the cash register) that he must be paid in pesos. If the buyer refuses and this medium of payment is not acceptable to both parties, then a contract is not formed, and nobody has any contractual obligation at all.

     
    Goldberg further explains:

    [C]ontractual creditors who do not specify another medium of payment in their contracts, as well as all tax authorities and courts (federal, state and local), cannot reject a payment made using these objects. In addition, many banks (national banks and members of the Federal Reserve System) must accept Federal Reserve notes in all transactions. Anyone else can reject these notes and coins [emphasis mine].

  7. Drexel Dave Sparks April 18, 2010 / 2:01 pm
    All I can say that as someone who has done the suburban and urban thang, JHK is much more convincing than you or Ice whatever will ever be.
    Love,
    Dafit
  8. Jesse April 18, 2010 / 3:33 pm
    David L.,
     
    Dror Goldberg is incorrect.
     

    United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
    31 U.S.C. § 5103

     
    Let me give just a few examples as to how Goldberg is incorrect.
    One)  Lets say that you and I have a contract for me to supply you with apples and you will pay me via a once ounce gold nugget, upon receipt.  I bring 1000 apples to you and you hand me the equivalent value of the spot price of gold in US Dollars.  I then state that I will not accept payment in other than a once ounce gold piece, refuse to give you the apples and they rot.  I take you to court and demand a one ounce gold piece.
     
    The court will find that because you tried to pay the spot price in US Dollars and they are 1) “legal tender for all debts”, 2) the payment agreed upon was not a unique item, gold is a commodity, not a unique coin,  I would lose.
     
    Now lets assume that you and I agree to a deal where the situation is changed.  You and I have the same agreement but you have stated that you will pay with a one-of-a-kind stamp.  I deliver the apples and you try to give me $1000.  I then refuse and the apples rot and I take you to court.
     
    The court will find that you owe me the stamp.  However, if you do not have the stamp, the court will make you pay me the equivalent amount.  The court will estimate the payment required to compensate me in US Dollars.  I can ask that you convert them into some other commodity but I cannot demand the stamp that you do not have.
     
    Two)  I must pay taxes using US Dollars.  I may not pay taxes in other than US Dollars.  Therefore, I must somehow gain US Dollars.  As I can’t print US Dollars, I must obtain them via trade.  I, therefore, must (at some point) accept US Dollars so that I may pay my taxes.
     
    Three)  From the paper that you quoted:

    Monetary theorists have recently started labeling the money they model as “legal tender.” The meaning of this concept changes from paper to paper. In Lotz (2004), p. 967, it is the only money that sellers are allowed to accept. In Selgin (2003), p. 160, buyers can force sellers to accept it (but they can agree on another medium of payment). In Lotz and Rocheteau (2002), p. 568, money is accepted if and only if it is legal tender. Shy and Tarkka (2002) agree with Selgin (p.303), but add that sellers can also force buyers to use it (p. 308). Alternatively, they claim that it must be used by default if the buyer and seller do not agree on the medium of payment during negotiations (p. 308). In Sargent and Velde (2002), p. 368, the cash-in-advance constraints seem to imply that legal tender money is the only medium of payment that buyers are allowed to offer. The same goes for the money in the utility function of Sussman and Zeira (2003), p. 1777.
     

    So there is hardly a consensus as to the definition “legal tender.”  Therefore, I will rely on the statute:

    United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
    31 U.S.C. § 5103

    Also from the Royal Mint of the UK:

    Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender.

  9. Gene April 18, 2010 / 8:59 pm
    So why is Urban Dayton so great? Not once has anyone ever explained this on here? All Urban Dayton can be had from Kettering or Springboro. And at night you have less worry about crime if you live out of Dayton. But keep crying…. cars won’t go away, suburban life won’t go away. These will grow each year. Be creative and stop sprawl – offer good schools, offer lower crime, offer thing people actually want. Yep, Dayton has the Arts, which can be enjoyed from Springboro….

    Yep, so convincing….. of what no one knows. To convince someone to make moonshine, well for those involved here they do it bc that is who they are…..

    Just saying suburburn life if  “bad” bc you hate it is hardly an argument. Let’s start again, who pays for the poor? Urban crack heads or productive suburban folk? Hmmmmmmm?mmmm?mmm? ESAD, so very sad….

  10. jstults April 20, 2010 / 10:51 am
    Jesse:

    I must pay taxes using US Dollars.  I may not pay taxes in other than US Dollars.  Therefore, I must somehow gain US Dollars.  As I can’t print US Dollars, I must obtain them via trade.  I, therefore, must (at some point) accept US Dollars so that I may pay my taxes.

    If you don’t already have some $ then why do you need to pay taxes?  Shouldn’t you be sticking your hand out instead?

  11. David Lauri April 20, 2010 / 11:06 am
    I must pay taxes using US Dollars.  I may not pay taxes in other than US Dollars.  Therefore, I must somehow gain US Dollars.  As I can’t print US Dollars, I must obtain them via trade.  I, therefore, must (at some point) accept US Dollars so that I may pay my taxes.
     
    I’m no lawyer so I don’t know that you’re right about your other arguments, but I’ll admit you’re right about this one. Even Goldberg (again in the above referenced paper) says, “the government artificially creates a demand for the legal tender objects and makes them valuable.”
     
    I guess it really does suck to be a Libertarian.  You’re forced to pay taxes and you’re forced to pay them in fiat currency.
  12. Greg Hunter April 20, 2010 / 12:10 pm
    The dots on the map like Springboro have been around a long while. Settled in 1796, around the time on the great big city of Dayton, Springboro was settled. My point here is that for 200 plus year we (via local, county, state and federal tax monies) have subsidized Dayton’s growth. In the 1980’s Springboro wanted to take a different course.

    Geno if you can unwrap the Brain a little you may understand WHY Dayton grew as a opposed to Springboro over the years.  IT IS CALLED POWER and that power was initially provided by WOOD and WATER.  Take a little look see at the City of Springboro.  SPRING means people can get water but it POWERS Nothing.  It was a HORSE developed community but had no POWER.    So the only way it could GROW is on SAUDI POWER or OIL – Get it?!?  You senseless spewing pseudo economic rabble.  If you think SAUDI POWER and its problems are easier to deal with than getting along with DAYTON and its PEOPLE and POWER, then you are clueless, which has been evident.  OIL makes AMERICANS WEAK, to WEAK to deal with economic stratification that prizes everyone’s TALENTS.

  13. Jesse April 20, 2010 / 3:40 pm
    Jstults,
    I would still have to pay taxes on my “earnings” even if they were “earned” in some other currency or via trade.  Essentially, you at some point have to accept US Dollars in order to live in the United States as a law abiding citizen.
  14. Gene April 20, 2010 / 3:53 pm
    Dayton grew bc of tax dollars. That is a fact, you can not dispute that. Answer the question regarding COUNTY growth Dip…. We have grown larger as a county. Where do we put all of these people.?Next to the criminals? Next to those who don’t work? Where do they live? In homes that are falling down? Where the illegal drugs take over blocks and blocks? Greg, you are an …..

    Springboro simply is a nice place to live. Get use to it. Grow baby grow. Springboro is where the money is, you know, the money you want tax. We are a better USA with Springboro. Growth has helped people achieve their dreams, put people to work, and have been a safe place to raise a family. The city of Dayton does not offer this…

    Why is it sooooo important for Urban Liberal CBabies to have suburbian folks be their new neighbors? They don’t like Urban living. They don’t want you as neighbor. Why demand they live on your street? So you can have their tax money….

    I think we all know we will continue to grow. That makes me happy, and it makes Greg mad, which also makes me happy. Greg why do you care? The end is so close for you, so you won’t be around when the “end of the world” happens…

    Folks, people have lived on this earth a long time. We did not have a lot 100, 200, 500, 5000 years ago. Somehow we managed to get by. So if the day comes I know humans will be just fine. OK, so maybe there is no Walmarts or Malls in the future, but I know we will be just fine. No worries here, unlike the “end of the world dome and gloom” brought to you by Tom and Jerry.

  15. Jesse April 20, 2010 / 4:51 pm
    David L.,
     

    I guess it really does suck to be a Libertarian.  You’re forced to pay taxes and you’re forced to pay them in fiat currency.

     
    I don’t think I could be anything else; I was born thinking that we were all free and should stay that way.  Which is why I was not the easiest kid to raise or have in class. :)  Thanks for the sympathy.
     
    I will keep fighting the good fight. At least you and I can agree on one thing.  Homosexuality is not a crime and homosexuals should not be discriminated against by the government.
     
    Get government out of marriage…(and everything else).
     

  16. Greg Hunter April 21, 2010 / 9:34 am
    Gene you are obviosly a believer in the Secret and have no knowledge of whence we came.  Sorry but you never addressed the energy question.
  17. Gene April 21, 2010 / 9:56 am
    Greg, 15 miles away from downtown Dayton is hardly the end of the world. Bitch about places that are really in the middle of nowhere. You “F” don’t answer my questions: We have more people in this county than we did 50 years ago. Where TF do you want to put them? Next to criminals and drug pushers?

    One day we will run out of oil. We can run cars off of coal. We can go back to wagons. We will stop travel. We will localize things. That is the answer. You are too much of a klek to get that. Humans adapt. We have for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Get that through your thick head.

    Grow Baby. Grow Springboro!!!!

  18. Gene April 21, 2010 / 10:16 am
    BTW Greg I don’t see where you asked a question. Ask one and I shall answer. Ask away…
  19. David Lauri April 23, 2010 / 9:11 am
    Rachel Maddow reports that some Republicans don’t think you have to rely on legal tender or fiat currency to get things like health care. Don’t have enough U.S. dollars to pay for your children’s immunizations? Tennessee State Representative Mike Bell says you could just offer to pay your pediatrician in vegetables. Or take advice from Sue Lowden, a Nevada Republican running for Harry Reid’s Senate seat, and just bring a chicken to the doctor (watch this lovely YouTube mashup of Lowden’s advice and a dancing chicken). You may be right, Jesse, that you need U.S. dollars to pay your taxes, but Republicans apparently think you don’t need dollars to pay your medical bills.
  20. Jesse April 23, 2010 / 10:18 am
    David,
    While that is funny; she is historically accurate about the payment methods used to procure services of all types.
    “Money” is valuable because of its use as a means of escaping the coincidence of wants problem that occurs during barter transactions.
    She is incorrect about the use of barter as a means of escaping the “expense” of the medical system because the only benefit to barter as opposed to cash transactions is the relative ease involved in hiding the cash value of the transaction…making it easier to avoid taxes.  She could just as easily say, “lets eliminate taxes on healthcare transactions.”
  21. Gene April 23, 2010 / 10:46 am
    “but Republicans apparently think you don’t need dollars to pay your medical bills.”  – DL

    Well DL, at least they want to pay something. Liberals either don’t want to pay or want someone else to pay. This is the big difference between the two parties. Rachel Maddow would just beat you up rather than pay.

  22. Greg Hunter April 23, 2010 / 4:33 pm
    One day we will run out of oil.

    Q. Gene – What is Peak Oil?
    Q. Gene – When will world oil Production Peak?
    Q. Gene – How will we know it has peaked?

  23. Gene April 23, 2010 / 5:02 pm
    If you don’t know, here is the wiki for ya. Going to go get some pizza at SP so I don’t have time for this….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

    Does that answer your questions?

    So if we run out of oil we can run cars off coal! Go West Virginia!

  24. Drexel Dave Sparks April 23, 2010 / 8:58 pm
    Hunter > Gene
  25. Jesse April 24, 2010 / 12:52 am
    Greg,
    Q. What does scarcity do to price?  A.  Prices rise.  The more scarce, the more dramatic the rise in price.
    Q. What does the rising cost of one resource do to capital investment in replacement products?  A.  Increases private capital investment.
    Q. When were we supposed to hit peak oil?  A. Depends on what year we are in.  Originally in the early 1900’s people floated the idea of peak oil.   In 1924 peak oil warnings were so dire that Calvin Coolidge set up the Cabinet-level Federal Oil Conservation Board.
    Hubbert, whose model is still being used, in 1956 predicted peak oil between 1965 and 1970.  It is revised every year since.  Usually being expanded to 10 to 15 years in the future by most “models”.
    Q. Who was William Stanley Jevons? A.  The gentleman who predicted peak coal in 1865.
    Q. What didn’t Jevons forsee?  A. The discovery of a more productive resource (oil) and investment of capital into oil.  Jevons also didn’t foresee new technologies that have since been used to find huge coal reserves and techniques for more efficiently using coal.
    Because I am sick of the Q and A style, I am just posting some other interesting facts about the predictive accuracy over the past 30 years…
    In the past 33 years the world has consumed more than 3 times the worlds known oil reserves in 1976.
    In 2008 the world had 25% more proven oil reserves than just 10 years earlier.
     
  26. Gene April 24, 2010 / 9:46 am
    I guess DDS is scared that humans can’t or won’t adapt in the future. How TF did we make it all these years without the car. I mean horses and wagons and feet and legs and boats just don’t exist anymore. Slant heads can’t think past what is here now….

    I will walk. I will be just fine.

  27. Greg Hunter April 24, 2010 / 11:03 am
    Sorry Geno, but it will not work that way as the transition to that lifestyle will require the population reduction on a vast scale.  Most of the people on this planet are here ONLY because of OIL.  So walking will not help food get to your gullet, but you will be one of the hunted in this great transition.  I care about people hence I choose to equate freedom to living not to sprawl.  Sprawl limits this areas ability to deal with the transition.  In addition here are two more questions.
     
    Have we reached peak oil production on a world wide basis?
     
    If not, when will it occur or what is your definition of  a Looooooooooooong Time?
  28. Gene April 24, 2010 / 10:54 pm
    People ate long before we drilled for oil.

    You will be dead before Peak Oil. So why do you care?

    USA has a lot of oil under it’s belly…. those who invested know…

  29. Drexel Dave Sparks April 25, 2010 / 12:28 am
    Keep guessing Gene.
    Hunter 3, Gene 0
  30. Gene April 25, 2010 / 8:47 am
    I guess when we run out of oil kids will have to walk to school, meaning we can’t use a school bus, therefore no need for bus drivers. Hope you can swing a hammer Dixie Dave.

    How did we live before oil? Or I should ask how did we live before we used oil for transportation and such? BC oil has been around for a while. I wonder how much is under the Dakotas?

    Doom and gloom kleks rule this country. Ask Annie Duke what she thinks of Obama…..

  31. Drexel Dave Sparks April 25, 2010 / 9:37 am
    Yep, the Earth has a creamy nougat center to run everything on indefinitely.

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