Sprawl. It’s a gas.
If you have a 900-square-foot house, it’s less costly to heat, cool, maintain and easier to clean, secure and furnish than a 4000-sq.-ft. McMansion- especially if you are only one person. It also takes a lot less time from end to end, or top to bottom.
Same goes for a city. If you are on an island, like Manhattan- you build up more than out. You put a subway underneath- you save space by not expecting everyone to drive to work. Think about how many parking spaces a 100-story parking building would take- if everyone came in by car, alone? Now do you see the stupidity of requiring x number of parking spaces per square foot of finished space? If the Kettering Tower needed a surface parking lot using the equation of 1 spot for every 300 sq ft (a big cubicle) you’d cover all of downtown Dayton.
The same goes for our city- which is “our house.” The bigger it gets- the more it costs us- especially if it’s split up among fewer and fewer people. Every road, every foot of utilities, every school, police station, library, etc. costs all of us. The more we add, the more it costs. And we’re not even looking at the energy side of things- we’re just talking about providing the infrastructure.
Moving from here to there costs us in gas, lots of which comes from people we don’t particularly like. The more we have to drive- the more gas we consume, the whole thing gets ugly- and inefficient.
So even though they’ve never met a new interchange they didn’t like, the Dayton Daily News Editorial board just started to realize that our car-culture is very expensive:
So the car-centered lifestyle still looks relatively attractive, notwithstanding all the warnings we as a country have received about the unreliability of oil supplies and the unreliability of oil prices.
As a community — a region — that continues to play the car card, we should be among the leaders in pushing for ways to make it a better card: for cars that are more energy-efficient, for cars that run on alternative fuels, and for new supplemental forms of transportation — like trains and better transit systems.
It’s just a matter of hedging a big bet.
via Editorial: Growth along I-75 requires new focus on energy | A Matter of Opinion.
Of course they put their new print technology center in a cornfield in Warren County long ago.
However their thinking is so pedestrian (pun intended) that the best they can come up with is higher efficiency cars, new fuels or better public transit. Not exactly the answers we need. Not even interesting enough to start a good debate.
In order for the Dayton region to catch up with progressive places that passed anti-sprawl legislation long ago, or embraced public transit, or “complete streets” for bike commuting- we need to come up with much more powerful ideas:
Repopulate the core: Dayton has an abundance of cheap housing. It’s also a big HUBzone. The open H1B visas for investing and importing foreigners into these areas would be a bold way to strengthen both the core and the nation- letting industry pay the tab. I talked about it here first: crazy economic development idea.
Instead of building offices and plants far away from workforces- or forcing commutes, which cost social capital in terms of unproductive time, and add wear and tear on roads and burn up fuel- why not reward companies and employees with a walk to work tax credit? The less we drive the healthier and wealthier we will be.
Public transit is fine, but must it be limited to “light rail” or trains or even traditional transit systems? Is bike share a way to move people around in dense areas that saves us wear and tear on roads? Cuts gas consumption? For several million dollars we can have something that puts Dayton on the map- and cuts down the costs of moving around short distances.
Or maybe a folding electric bike- from YikeBike. It’s an amazing compact folding electric bicycle. Watch the video:
Is this an alternative?
Or a low-cost monorail system like the Urbanaut? Older versions like the ones at Disneyland capture the imagination of the city of the future- yet we just spent $77 million on just another highway interchange.
When cities first sprouted up they were typically near rivers, natural ports, easily defensible positions or beautiful vistas. All are natural features that can’t be replicated. Now, we’re locked into the idea of putting things next to off-ramps because, well, we take the car for granted. Once you start building things for people again, instead of cars, we’ll look back at these excesses and wonder why.
Today’s Dayton Grassroots Daily Show talks about the relationship between the cost of energy and the cost of sprawl. Watch it and put on your thinking cap- is there a better way to meet the challenges of having less people live in a bigger area who are totally dependent on cheap energy?
Why is freedom so bad Greg?
gene please look up how sole proprietorships work. plus if you remove taxes for business what stops me for selling my ipod on ebay thus making my own ebay business and putting all my other income in that “business”
ok cut taxes sounds nice but you forget what budgets do u wanna cut? less cops? less teachers? less military ? which one do u want because guess what you can’t cut taxes without cutting programs.
gene your ideas sound nice but don’t work in the real world. also trying to get people to live in your city and get your city to be a place people wanna live isn’t anti-freedom. its marketing
Jeff – Interesting about Louisville and I always wondered because it appeared to me 264 and 265 were Sprawl magnets due to the “early” (ie long before required) construction.
Greg, E-mail me and I will explain the Louisville situation. It’s interesting but off-topic for a Dayton forum.
The sprawl situation in Dayton isn’t that bad in that commuting distances are not that great and traffic is (relatively speaking) not that heavy. Aesthetically, suburban development here is somewhat better planned, and most suburbs grew up around country towns, so retain a sense of community and “place”.
holy shit! i just realized i have been feeding the troll.
Clayton – again, I propose (read slowly now) that only people (like you, like David Esrati) pay taxes. 7% federal after a $500 heart beat tax, and lower for state and local. CUT SERVICES. Work within a budget. If you need help cutting stuff, ask me.
THE END.
We have created fake jobs by making things complicated. Well f*ck, that is not hard to do. I could make any area in life sooooooo complicated that a million people could be employeed. Is that righ though? No. Keep living in the “it has been this way” world and “to change it would be so hard” world.
It will never change, I get that. Too many people would have to give up their cush jobs, both liberals and conservative. This government shit is such a joke. Why don’t people get we pay for things just bc others have made them complicated? It does not need to be this complicated. Each person pays a tax. No other taxes need to exist. The End, again.
Check out the Housing and Transportation Index – Dayton has a Future!
@ David E.
It seems like you think the Austin Pike interchange is just some arbitrary infrastructure project designed to put money in the pockets of those evil developers for a few extra tax dollars. Well, not denying that could certainly be a small part of it – have you traveled on 741 at 5pm on a Friday evening? The Miami Township/Springboro area has long been a bustling locale for commerce and business over the last 30 years, only increasing in its scope. Business owners and corporations have chosen to migrate there for whatever reason they believe is the best for their company… but the point is that one of government’s fundamental roles is to provide the basic needs for the people. The Austin Pike interchange is meant to just as much accommodate the the businesses and traffic already present in the area as much as it is meant to bring in more money to an assortment of people. Could you tell me how bike trails are gonna help ANY city’s economy, or meet but an extremely small minority’s needs?
And poor people cost everybody money. I’m sure you’re aware of how they share a negative percentage of the tax burden in this country, no?
They (people/businesses) migrated there becasue there was a lack of crime, good schools, educated people. On a side note, it is time to stop spending money in DT Dayton, and all monies that would go to such DT projects should go to neiborhoods. DT is a lost casue, lets fix neiborhoods in Dayton. Let the suburbs win the business wars.
Jordan a word springs to mind…. it starts with an M but we could just call you Gene instead. Really getting home or to work with a 5 minute delay is a BASIC NEED. Come the f on, really. A basic need is food and shelter. If the government was really in charge of basic needs it would own the food producing and energy producing as well as Water and Waste Water. So pull it out son and recognize that the good ole USA squandered its oil winning WWII and after that allowed corporations to absolutely ruin Cities and towns by dismantling the public transportation. Enjoy the lily white crud hole of Springboro. It might have 5 decent years then nothing.
Enjoy the lily white crud hole of Springboro. (Greg Hunter)
You’re absolutely right Greg. The folks in Springboro just don’t know how bad they have it. The Old Bandito just drove thru Springboro and noticed kids riding bikes and playing baseball in the park. Don’t these twisted exurbanites know that a good drive-by shooting, like the ones we have in West Dayton parks, add spice to life? And while driving south on 741 the Old Bandito didn’t see even one hooker. What’s up with that, doesn’t Warren County appreciate the role of independent women entrepreneurs? We sure do in Dayton. Furthermore the streets were so clean the Old Bandito felt compelled to throw some empty beer cans and discarded syringes out the drivers side window just to give this town a more South Park feel. And worst of all, when the El Bandito went shopping, it was entirely business like. Where is the drama, the Old Bandito enquired, like accompanies every single execursion to full-contact Krogers on Wayne Avenue? It was so quick and so clean El Bandito de Helios felt like paying for his purchases in change (the biggest denomination being a dime) as is the wont in East Dayton. Safe streets? Courteous behavior? Absence of winos, hookers and miscreants? Let me outta’ here…….
Enjoy the lily white crud hole of Springboro. (Greg Hunter)
Hey Greg. Mind telling me why this comment isn’t being construed as being racist? Do you not like caucasians? Does a collection of caucasians in one area disqualify that area from consideration? If a million caucasians say that two plus two equals four, is that statement not correct? Bet your gonna’ tell the Old Bandito that some of your best friends are caucasian. Reason the Old Bandito is asking is that some are trying to besmirch the Tea Party movement by saying it is too white? Has any movement in the US ever been discredited because it was too black? Just asking………
@greg
Are you a moron? Or just one of those useless Obama-ites demanding social justice for all the screw-ups in our society that contribute nothing to the world outside a crack addiction and a nightly contribution to the Steel Reserve brand of malt liquor? I bet you think that instead of providing INFRASTRUCTURE to thousands of people, any government is better served blowing its funds on moochers and leechers too damn lazy to apply at McDonald’s for a job. Do you wanna make an argument for how dumping cash into some stupid idea like building bike paths for a couple hundred people is better than providing roadways to thousand of people, or just attack me for reminding your uneducated ass of how any economy works… more roads need to be built if there are more commuters traveling on them. Get your head out of your utopian ass and realize that Dayton isn’t the only city that has growing suburbs around it.
Greg:
That’s an interesting link; they are doing a sort of crowd-sourced funding model; similar to the ‘hackerspace’ guys down in Cinci. Technology enabled voluntary cooperation and community building is the future (see all you lurking libertarians, no coercion!).
The Austin Pike interchange is meant to just as much accommodate the the businesses and traffic already present in the area as much as it is meant to bring in more money to an assortment of people.
The initial rationlization for the Austin Pike interchange to relieve congestion that was developing at the I-675 interchanges in the vicinity of the Dayton Mall, SR 48, and SR 725. The justification in the original planning had nothing to do with SR 741 and Springboro development, as most commercial development “south” at that time was at the I-75 interchanges. The issue really goes back to the planning history of I-675.
Later, “economic development” was added to justify Austin Road, at first to provide better access to the Mound Lab site, which had been closed and was undergoing redevelopment. Later the concept was broadend to to induce additional sprawl at the interchange itself and in southern Montgomery County along Social Row/Austin Pike, making the land immediately around the interchange a candidate for commercial/industrial development, and the property along Social Row to SR 48 open for retail and residential development.
The congestion mitigation justification fell by the wayside since it no longer made sense as a rationalization because all the new development associated with the interchange would generate even more traffic, even more congestion. Perhaps the original rationalization of congestion mitigation might have been just an excuse to build, since the person who proposed it, Nora Lake of the MVRPC, was a defender of real estate interests based on her defense of I-675 during the 1970s freeway revolt.
Although, in closing, it should be noted the very first plans for a limited access highway between Cincinnati and Dayton (the US 25 Expressway) did call for an interchange at Austin Road. This was dropped during the later final planning for I-75 as unecessary.
That is excellently put, Jeff. Very objective and informed… I learned a couple things. Is this the Jeff who used to refer to himself as ‘yer humble host?’ ‘Cuz ya sound just like him!
Do you wanna make an argument for how dumping cash into some stupid idea like building bike paths for a couple hundred people is better than providing roadways to thousand of people, or just attack me for reminding your uneducated ass of how any economy works I am quiet familiar on how the American Economy works….It “works” because of CHEAP oil, which is no longer cheap. Oil is truly one of the most precious resources on the PLANET and as an oil executive once said… Considering the many productive uses of petroleum, burning it for fuel is like burning a Picasso for heat. – Big Oil Executive So Jordan I am against killing people to take THEIR oil and I am against using our DOLLAR as the reserve currency to ensure OIL when the product is CLEARLY peaking in a world with more people and less energy. So clearly the MORONS are AMERICANS who refuse to understand that they are ADDICTS and are investing in NEEDLES (Roads) when heroin (fuel) WILL not be used by the MIDDLE CLASS to get around. So the Continued investment by the GOVERNMENT in a soon to be WHITE ELEPHANT is clearly STUPID, but hey I guess it will support a lot of bikes. If you do not get it now then please kill yourself when you finally crawl out of the FOX hole and get a clue. Every barrel of oil is estimated to provide the energy equivalent of eight adult human beings working full-time for a year. In addition to providing humanity with the cheapest source of energy in its history, oil has also enabled us to produce tens of thousands of products that were not otherwise possible to bring into existence before the discovery of fossil fuels. Practically everything we eat, consume, and use has fossil fuel in it in one way or another. Fossil fuel molecules permeate almost everything our society relies on to function. Specifically, fossil fuels (i.e., oil and natural gas) and their derivatives are used in the manufacture of medicines, agricultural fertilizers and pesticides, plastics, alcohol, building materials,… Read more »
Or just one of those useless Obama-ites demanding social justice
It’s not just Obama-ites who demand social justice. Why none other than the blessed Holy Father, Benedict XVI, has called for social justice, and while I may be wrong, I think, from what he’s said about homosexuality and the role of women among other things, he’s no flaming liberal.
Why does the blessed Holy Father call for social justice, even for “all the screw-ups in our society that contribute nothing to the world”? Could it be because he knows that Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me“?
Of course I realize that people who like to call others “moron” and who like to dehumanize their neighbors probably do not care what Jesus or the Pope, much less I, have to say.
The pope should be in jail.
David L.,
I agree with your point. Both “liberals” and “conservatives” are terribly misguided with regard to the role of force and coercion in the realm of social justice. Anyone who steals from one person and gives to another is guilty of theft. The church is better than government in that they only suggest that you “give them their 10%” or you go to Hell eventually; the government demands that I pay my >40% or I go to jail immediately.
Go to church all the time, and never once have I heard I will go to hell if I do not make a “donation.” Huh? What church are you going to, a baptist guilt church?
And why does Kettering get to win in business and other suburban cities have to stand by? The Greene was built to take business away from other places. Deal with it – it is in GREENE county, not Monty.
Gene…
You may want to read my response in the context of David L’s post. What I am demonstrating is that even the Papal Church doesn’t use force or coercion to take from their members; only government does.
Social justice is different than theft. We have covered this often enough that I don’t need to rehash it unless someone has a novel, salient point.
It’s not just Obama-ites who demand social justice. Why none other than the blessed Holy Father, Benedict XVI, has called for social justice, and while I may be wrong, I think, from what he’s said about homosexuality and the role of women among other things, he’s no flaming liberal. (David Lauri)
Well DL, the Old Bandito ain’t real clear on this social justice issue. So in order to raise the Old Bandito’s consciousness is there a reference dudes like me can turn to to find social justice guidelines and statutes? Or perhaps is there a Chief Social Justice of the Supreme Court? Or a Department of Social Justice under the perview of the Attorney General (of Social Justice, natch). Didn’t think so. Furthermore, everybody talks about social justice as if everyone agreed to the necessity like our restrictions against theft and murder. Perhaps it’s just one hombres experience, but when someone starts talking about social justice it is a usually a thinly veiled justification for either wealth redistribution or thuggish restriction. Gene and Jesse got this right. Social Justice is whatever the cult of redistribution and social control say it is….
Nice prose as always Ice Bandit but again never any points (Greg Hunter)
Thanks for the props, Greg. But the Old Bandito thought the point was as obvious as a Nun in a topless bar; methinks you maligned and libeled a fine town like Springboro for no other stated reason than a lot of caucasians live there…
Greg hates communities that are mostly white. He hates Oakwood even though it is right next to Dayton and is an easy and practical commute. Why? Too many white folks I guess….
Geno and Icey always extract a single statement and run it into the ground while never addressing the salient points of the argument. It is typical of much of the discourse in Dayton a penchant for quantity and not quality. I absolutely love Oakwood as it a perfect community, but it and the people in it should understand how it was formed and what the continued ramifications for that history. Oakwood was developed at a time when I perceive that racial and cultural ignorance was far greater than IT should be today.
In addition, I have an expectation of Quality in the products and decisions that are undertaken by government and corporations. It appears to me that has declined in America, the appreciation of Quality for the environment, products and construction. We have learned that we probably should not crap in our water and we are rectifying that mistake, but we appear not to have learned that soil is not soil and that some areas should always have been designated as farm land. So to pave over the future food producing areas as oil declines, which will signal the end of globalization, is short sighted and detrimental to people going forward.
Greg,
The best thing about being a free human in a capitalist system is that you can take advantage of your astounding incites. You could, say, go buy a farm. You and your progeny can feed us all and make a wonderful profit. I will invest in a grader so that I can help people pave. Once I have made the money on the paving, I will pay you for the produce. Isn’t it great that we don’t need any one person deciding for us all? Yay freedom!
We have plenty of farm land. Please. And Oakwood is not perfect, just “better” than Dayton. That is not a hard task.
We need more growth bc core cities like Dayton have dropped the ball. I say start bulldozing areas of Dayton and return these areas to farms. Afterall, they once were. Just bc Dayton was first makes it best and deserving of develoment? With that logic we should still have slaves. Areas evolve and change. The suburbs are where productive people live. We should invest in these areas.
So in order to raise the Old Bandito’s consciousness is there a reference dudes like me can turn to to find social justice guidelines and statutes?
Just as I cannot convince Libertarians they’re wrong, I’m willing to admit that I’m incapable of getting you to understand what social justice is, Bandito. But really, it ain’t that complicated. Either you care about more than just yourself, or you don’t. If your primary concern is making sure no one gets anything of yours to which they’re not entitled, then you probably will never understand social justice. If you can think beyond yourself and care about the well being of others, than you can grok social justice.
Gene and likewise most Americans really have lost touch with realities of nature. Wanting something does mean one can afford it. Sorry but as the future progresses, society cannot AFFORD to live or invest in this type of living.
Soil is not soil gene and water is not water, but bulldozing is easy as there will always be bulldozing. I mean this statement on its face is delusional. Why do you think Dayton was placed where it was Geno? Transportation and Power. What provided that when Dayton began? Bueller, Bueller. Will that Transportation and Power come into vogue again. Of course and investing away from those source is stupid, but hey, bulldoze away, while we can. The whining will be the loudest from Springboro.
As I post this the supposed Smartest Man in the Room, the economist Alan Greenspan is trying to save his legacy concerning the bubbles or terrible investments made by the US over the last 30 years. Sorry Gene he represents the same lack of insight that you appear to adhere.
Where does that money go? Mexico, Saudi Arabia…. Again US food is US food. Sorry you have lost the energy argument. Claiming Freedom while maintaining ignorance does bode well for the future.
Please note again. America produces 5 million barrels a day, while using 25 million barrels a day. We use 25% of the worlds petroleum and are 5% of the population. Of that 25% of oil 60-70% of oil consumption is for personal transportation.
When I look at that data it cannot continue, especially in light of higher oil costs and lower production. That is my point, WE have to give up something and either deprive people of life or learn to live in closer proximity, those are the choices. NO OTHER.
But Springboro is clean and safe, what is so bad about that? Greg, you are worried about this planet. Why? You will be long gone before these problems come about, and since you have no kids, well….
To be serious though, Getting rid of neighborhoods in Dayton and returning these areas to farm land will combat the problems of the Springboros of the world. We can eliminate the unproductive folk, placing them in nearby cities like Cbus and Indy and Cincy, return to the glory days of Dayton when we used to take care of ourselves. We don’t “NEED” Dayton, do we? Why are we under this impression? Why not 86 a lot of Dayton, make the southern burbs the new Northern Cincinnati, and return to life of the 1850’s. Seems to me we could save Dayton this way. Make light rail from Oakwood (the new Northern Cincinati suburb) to DT Cincy and just eliminate the whole idea of Dayton. With this Cicny would be much larger getting more federal money to become a successful. Dayton could return to it roots and be more rural around the edges. Become a small town again.
Why do we have to be things we are not? We are not a big town, so why try to be. Rather we are a cow town, so lets be that. Think outside of the bun. We are not Chicago. We are Dayton.
“The whining will be the loudest from Springboro.”
All the whining for the last 20 or 30 years has been coming from folks that live in Dayton. Seriously, when are you going to recognize that the productive people in this area choose to live in safe places? And why is that bad? You claimed race riots were a result of people moving, do the math on that. Good people leave and what is left are riots. Why do you think they left in the first place.
Maybe if we can get people to take a little personal responsibility we would be better off. But to say that would be hurting their feelings.
Will I? Hmm, I think not, but I could be dead this week, so maybe. Even so, why would I want society to make poor investments. Quality not Quantity.
Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner. Yes it has been my contention that white flight was financed by tax revenues by building roads to allow whites to leave while redlining of real estate kept blacks out. It is bad policy and contributed to the decline of Dayton and Cincinnati. The Transportation Improvement Districts were used by Whites, err the people in charge, to finance the moves. It is not what is expected from a Christian Society. It is a done deal now but never fear whites will return to Natural Transportation and Power as Energy Prices increase.
Thanks for the confirmation Geno!
So then people should have been forced to stay and live with criminals (both white and black) Whites left bc of crime and schools. Some black folk left too. White people are also a problem in the city, why do you only say black? DD has his youtube of a real nice white guy in Dayton. I think it was more about leaving a “loser” mentality, or an entitlement mentality. Not a black and white thing.
“Even so, why would I want society to make poor investments. Quality not Quantity.”
All welfare money is a poor investment. Any money going into Dayton is a poor investment. So with that quote we should take our cash and develop suburbia, a much better investment. Look at the human capital alone. Productive people in the ‘burbs, not so much in Dayton. It is the old 61 rule. In suburbia for every 6 productive people you have one lazy person. In cities for every 6 lazy people you have 1 productive person. INVEST OUR TAX DOLLARS IN SUBURBS.
Quality of life is much better in suburbia. And would it not be most progressive to see people take care of themselves rather than taxing people to take care of others? Real progress would mean everyone is responsible for him or her self. Why do liberals label themselves as progressive.? What is so progressive about welfare? It enables people to not have any “progress.” Is it a typical liberal thing to change the meaning of words?
Just a few facts from the MVRPC’s Going Places study might help you see how government can be involved with sprawl. Anxious for development, Dayton and the surrounding communities already have more land zoned for commercial or residential development than the region could expect to fill in 50 years. Between 1975 to 2000 the region experienced a 44% increase in developed land. During the same period the population grew by 1%. Today our developed areas have an average population of 2,309 per square mile. If we continue without trying to put some new limits on sprawl they project in 2030 the population will average 1,390 per square mile in developed areas.
We are all paying to support that extensive infrastructure with our taxes. With few people per square mile today our taxes are already substantial. Guess where taxes will be in 2030!
You are correct, corporate welfare in the form of road building is wrong and should not have been completed except as a vote ie have all of the citizens vote on the projects while the developers have no say.
The point has always been Gene is that if all of the people that lived in Springboro, Kettering and Centerville were instead living in Dayton then the number of welfare/panhandlers would be significantly obscured and probably lower. Race drove it and we all pay for it. Try looking at Vancouver, CA for some balance in your argument.
Zero, but tribute to the feudal replacement….unknown..
You should not legislate where people live. They moved bc of crime and shitty schools. They got worse as the population grew. They moved. You act as if there were the same number or people at 1905 and 1955 and 1985 and 2005. It has changed, and Dayton grew too big, got more crime and shitty schools, people said the hell with this, bought land, built, paid taxes for roads, businesses followed. Corporate welfare? hardly. A reaction to crime and schools is more like it. People moved and places accomadated with roads, via local taxes, county taxes (poulation B Cheese grew) and state and fed taxes (which were lobbied to get, just like all taxes.) Trade off. End welfare for corporations if you end welfare for individuals. At the VERY LEAST corporations provide jobs. And building roads in Springboro was not corporate welfare, rather a reaction to growing population in the region as a whole. Now we are losing people, and the better places to live are in suburbia not the “city” so therefore we should take all “city” money and develop the land properly where productive people actually want to live, which would be the suburbs. NO ONE WANTS TO LIVE IN DAYTON, but you and esrati and a few others. There are like 1000 total people who like Dayton, if people had a choice they would leave. Get that through your head. The midwestern city as we know it (those of Dayton’s size) are gone. We need to take advatage of the good (the suburbs) and eliminate and change the bad (the city.) Truth hurts, but begging for people to move to Dayton while every other person receives govt money is hardly an incentive for productive people to move. Let’s tackle real problems – the people who are not productive, the people who contribute nothing. They are the drain, they are the reason people want to live in Springboro in the first place. Ask anyone why they move to Springboro and you will here things like schools and crime rate and privacy. Something Dayton can not do. Let’s get rid of Dayton… Read more »
Springboro was settled around the same time as Dayton. Maybe Dayton STOLE population from Springboro back then. Bastards. They sprawled to Dayton. It never ends. Dayton stole people from somewhere – was that fair? We should all live on the East coast, ten miles from the ocean. Every block should have 100 story buildings.
gene i have a better idea than using taxpayer money on building roads for people that wanna work in the city but not live here. because crime is higher when there’s is more poor people i have a idea lets pay the people that do have jobs a living wage($10) so that people that do would don’t have to be on welfare to support their family. that would be a much better use of our time than paying for the rich people to live . also the only reason that suburbs have less crime is because they price out the poor. ignoring the poverty problem doesn’t make it go away. also people thinking the way you think is why there is so much populous rage againist the rich. oh i make more money than you so I must work harder and be more productive than you. when you had everything handed to you. which is a crock of shit. the real problem is when rich fucks pay people so little that they have to ask the government to help them live.
also @will brooks the parking meters at the Greene aren’t real meters so you can’t get a ticket. also at the Greene there are tons of places close by to get change .. its a mall
Greg,
Your understanding of economics is astoundingly bad. I keep the profits I make paving. It doesn’t go to any other country unless I invest it in that country (which I have been doing for more than a year…made a killing, BTW). I pay for fuel with other than profits…if I paid for them out of profits…they wouldn’t be profits. However, if I weren’t making profits while paving, I would stop paving and instead do something else that is more productive for those around me…perhaps farming. Regardless, farming also takes energy. In order to avoid using energy I propose a “Matrix like” humans = batteries formula. Sounds like progress to me.
Are you serious about me losing the energy argument? I am pretty sure that I won that one; while teaching you how to diagram sentences in the process.
Gene:
We few, we happy few…
Great Job! I learned so much. By the way how much did paving did you do for the Private Sector?
Here is a discussion of Asphalt – English Paver.
At least you are thinking Gene! But maybe we should think before we design a system based on perpetual growth in a closed loop system. But that would be economics only not the economics taught today as they never consider the earth as finite.
Clayton,
Why should someone be forced to pay another person a certain amount of money? Why can’t the parties involved agree to a wage. Why $10?
Most businesses, especially the small ones, can not afford $10 per hour. Most barely get by as is. There are soooooooooooooooooooooooo many costs to running a business that most people do not have clue. It should be up to the business owner.
I don’t want poor people to be poor. They often make terrible choices that keep them poor. Work on that. And most millionares are self made, over 90%. Go RICH!!!!
And why are people so obsessed with other people’s money. WTF cares who is rich? It is not any of your business. And if you think it is well then I should start dragging out those poor who use my tax dime to drink and smoke. Two way street.
After only spending a week of reading the comments on this website, I’ve come to the conclusion everybody here is a moron, and that includes myself. Jesus loves us all, David, despite this. I think the best solutions for our city are summed up in the following:
1. Prayer
2. The coming of the apocalypse
3. Pray for the coming of the apocalypse
We are all hopeless, yet I still love this town. And its suburbs, too. I’m sure that would seem like treason to some of you fellows.
It ain’t that bad. Dayton (and the ‘burbs) is was it is, which is a nice decent sized town. The ‘burbs actually add (as they do in most cities) a real opportunity for outsiders to feel they can move to this area. The city itself (like most cities of this size, and slightly larger like Cincy) is in poor shape with schools and the crime issue will never be fully resolved. For some reason the supporters of city living just can not get it through their thick skulls that there is a larger portion of the population that wants nothing to do with crime, especially if it is violent in nature. Most suburbanites get all up in arms over things like Tiger Woods. Actual crime is seen as completely and totaly unacceptable. I live in Dayton, I can deal with the criminal element. But I do see how most people don’t want to put up with that shit. When communities accept this behavior well then there goes the neighborhood. It happens will all races. And most criminals are young men. So that is what we need to deal with. Young men. Send them to the Army. The parents of school age kids just don’t get it. They think the school is supposed to teach their kids to read and write and add and subtract. If you also believe this, well then you are part of the problem. It is the parents job to make “shore” :) that Suzy and Bobby can do first grade stuff BEFORE first grade. We have so many kids at a 3rd grade level yet they are in 7th or 8th 0r 9th grade. The parents don’t read to them, the parents don’t teach them. There are no books in most of these homes. School is a tool, a tool used to enhance the development of previously learned tasks. When kids enter school without basic skills it hurts us all. NO, it is not the job of the school, rather the parent. Hold their asses responsible. But too many people want to make excuses for these… Read more »
gene,
why $10 dollars a hour. because unless you make that much an hour your poor. A person shouldn’t work their ass off 40 hours a week. to be called unproductive. if you can’t stay in business while paying a wage people can live on you shouldn’t be in business. wages should be up to the public because wages is the easiest way to cut cost aka conflict of interest. there is no right to maximize profits. and no gene most of the rich are not self made most rich people make money by under paying the people that do the real work. ex.any company with a retail front.
clayton, you sound like you’d benefit from an intro course in economics (Sinclair is well subsidized so the tuition is cheap).