Safety and you- and the rest of the story

Today the Dayton Daily News ran another article about the City Commission race. However, with their drop in readership, it’s not going to make much of a difference come election day. So far, the TV news has ignored the commission race in it’s entirety- with only a little coverage of the Mayoral.

There is more to my solutions for public safety than just beat responsibility and turning the academy into a profit center, but you’d hardly know from the article. I would take exception with the Chief’s response:

Esrati wants every neighborhood to have a dedicated police officer. Historic South Park, where he lives, shows that concept works.

Biehl said that partnership is successful because Miami Valley Hospital pays for the officer. “We’ve found, on a physiological level, one officer dedicated to a neighborhood promotes engagement and problem solving,” Biehl said. “Is there a private entity in all neighborhoods to underwrite the cost?”

Right there we have a fundamental flaw: that’s what we’re supposed to use our tax dollars for- before we go off and try to buy a neighborhood for Kroger (the Wayne and Wyoming debacle– with several million spent) or through giving grants to private corporations for promised jobs ($125K to BGH Studios).

Had we invested in police- a basic public service, year after year, our neighborhoods would be safer, your investments in homes would be worth more, and our community would be perceived differently.

The second part of our problem is our insistence on only hiring officers who’ve been through our academy. There are many police training academy’s- including one at Sinclair Community College. The cost to test, train and then graduate a small percentage of those officers is a very expensive process.

It’s time to either turn the academy over to Sinclair, run it as a regional training facility, or shut it down and sub-contract the training to Sinclair. In fact, if what Chief Biehl says in today’s paper is correct:

The city will be hard pressed to hold a recruit exam by summer 2010, Biehl said. On average, two sworn officers retire monthly. Biehl estimates it will take 16 months to schedule an exam, then move officers through six months of training. That could leave the department with 32 fewer officers before new recruits are on the job…

“We could go below the 350 (sworn officer) mark by January 2011,” Biehl said. “That could put us at our lowest staffing level in a decade.”…

“Most police departments are looking to send people out the door. I don’t mean retirement. I mean layoff,” Biehl said.

the obvious answer is to start hiring the officers that are laid off in other communities, like Trotwood. These are trained officers, saving us probably $100,000 + per trainee in training costs, and could well help us start solving our minority hiring disability that has plagued this department for years.

Why the taxpayers of Dayton are forced to pay recruits and for their training, when other departments hire people who’ve paid their own way is beyond me. Maybe, if we did it like everyone else- we could also pay our officers more (right now Kettering officers make at least $10k more a year).

Dayton has been doing things the same way and expecting a different result for too long. It’s time to discuss real solutions, like changing our standard operating procedure, if we want to see real change.

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49 Responses

  1. Citigirl October 4, 2009 / 10:55 am
    I remember somewhere in the not so distant past when we did just that, hired officers with only experience. It is a good policy.
    I would like to see you address the schools. Without better schools no family will be willing to take a chance on Dayton. Why would any middle class family move to Dayton and face the prospect of sending their children to horrible schools? Schools that hold no promise for even a passing education.
    And the curbs and sidewalks: our foundation is broken. And a few of the most ardent supporters don’t even live in the City. They live in the suburbs.
    problems, problems, and how many people feel trapped? They can’t move…because of reported crime, bad schools, boarded up neighborhoods and tumbling property values.
    OYVAY……..not words, not defending what is written but showing a concrete plan….a workable plan!

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  2. Jeff October 4, 2009 / 11:54 am
    I read that article and whats key is the chief agrees with you about your proposal.  That it is an effective form of policing.  The only issue is how to pay for it (or, how to reorganize the PD around the concept).
     
    And an excellent point about a regional police academey.  You hit the regionalism theme as well as a governmental efficiency theme.

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  3. tg October 4, 2009 / 1:40 pm
    Crime is a multifaceted problem.  It starts at the citizens level – what are neighbors willing to tolerate?  Are they willing to call the police, provide a witness statement, press charges and attend hearings.?  Are the Police responding fast enough, gathering enough evidence – is the Crime Lab able to quickly turn around the evidence (and no, not by CSI standards where DNA results are back in 15 minutes).  Is the Prosecutor’s office willing to press charges, especially when the case may not be a slam dunk?  Back to citizens, are they willing to do jury duty and base decisions on fact, not their interpretation of how things might have really gone down?  And are the judges willing to impose a sentence that sends a message – and keeps repeat offenders off the streets?  All of these pieces must be in place if we are going to truly become tough on crime.   Criminals mostly avoid the suburbs because they can’t get away with it there.  As long as we let them get away with it in Dayton, we’re going to be behind the 8 ball.

    Beyond all that, what I get torked off about the most is that all the social ills are pushed to the urban core and then suburbanites say ‘well, just because you can’t get your act together, it’s not our problem.’   I wish someone in the City would stand up and say to the surrounding municipalities “pony up, support us, or finance and maintain your own court system, jail, homeless shelters, jobs & family services, methadone clinics and plasma centers.  Get your own SWAT team and crime lab. ”

    Dayton Public Schools weren’t bad before white flight and busing.  Now that the middle class has fled to the safety and comfort of the ‘burbs, it turns around and thumbs its noses at the families left behind.   Those same families that are working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet and don’t have much time left to help their kids with homework or to go to parent teacher conferences.  They don’t have the resources to sign their kids up for piano lessons and soccer and cheerleading.  They don’t have the resources to provide their kids with the advantages middle & upper class kids are given, so they fall behind, and they get lost in our capitalistic society…and all we do is mock them for being lazy & wanting a hand out.  We put them at a disadvantage and then resent that they are disadvantaged and require social services.

    The City takes a lot of the burden but gets no support from the region.   Instead everyone just keeps moving farther and farther away, creating a demand for new sewer, water, schools and taking the funding that could be used to maintain and improve the existing infrastructure.  Dayton has a lot of good schools – Stivers, DECA, Ponitz, Holy Angels, St Anthony’s, CJ, Carroll, Sinclair and many others.   

    I realize that city living isn’t for everyone, which is part of the reason why we live in the burbs.  I also realize I’ve contributed to the very sprawl I despise, but I also feel we go over and above to make up for that through our involvement in downtown and various boards.  We’re not asking everyone to move to Dayton, but at least go to the restaurants and galleries and events.   It’s not going to be picture perfect and tidy – it’s called urban grit for a reason.  While some people can’t imagine living in a dense, urban environment, others can’t imagine living in a cookie cutter suburb.  Different strokes for different folks.  But instead of saying “Dayton needs to fix its schools” is there some way you can volunteer your time or expertise and HELP make Dayton’s schools better, or at least improve the life of one DPS student? 

    Each of us needs to get past the thought that SOMEONE else needs to fix the problem. 

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  4. David Esrati October 4, 2009 / 1:51 pm

    When I see Oakwood with 12% African American enrollment, to match the national average, I’ll start believing that the court order was applied fairly. It is time to tell the suburbs that the free ride is over- it’s called regionalism. Not everybody wants to have kids- we can have a community without them- however, we abandoned all our parks and rec programs too- while spending money chasing Kroger. Once we get our priorities back in proper order, we’ll start making progress.

    This is why I need your support. No one on the current commission has any ideas on how to turn this around. One voice can get the discussion going.

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  5. Jennifer Alexander October 4, 2009 / 1:53 pm
    I would love to move to Dayton from Sugarcreek & be closer to a community with diversity & culture. I would love to purchase an old historic property with charm & rehab it & sit out on my front porch in the evenings & get to know my neighbors….instead of living in a cookie cutter new housing development, next door to people I hardly ever speak to.  Yet, there is no way I would even consider living in Dayton at this point in my life….1)the low rated schools  2)crime    In fact the only reason I ever even find myself in Dayton are for Dr. appointments at  MVH, yet now with the new south location I hardly ever get downtown…lol, I miss the days when I was in H.S. in Kettering & my friends & I would skip school & take the bus downtown & go shopping & out to eat.

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  6. Drexel Dave Sparks October 4, 2009 / 2:05 pm
    You obviously make your judgement about everyday life in Dayton from the media, not reality.

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  7. Jennifer Alexander October 4, 2009 / 2:31 pm
    Drexel, I assume your comment was directed towards me.  I grew up in Kettering, lived there until 5 yrs ago when the schools started to decline, moved to Sugarcreek for the schools. I hate it out here with a passion, moving no more than 4 miles down the road took my family back to what seems like the deep south in the 40’s.  My daughter will graduate in May with  1 black student & 1 asian, she’s scared to wear an Obama shirt to school…not just because she’ll get her ass kicked but because her teachers will treat her differently. I spent many yrs as a volunteer with Montgomery County Dems & lots of time downtown….yet the party seems very different these days to me, I have no reason to attend their functions. Just because I live in the burbs doesn’t mean I can afford these days to go to the Shuster & then go out to eat downtown…even if there was somewhere for me to shop downtown….these days I’m shopping at the Thrift Store, yet living in a $250,000 house we can no longer afford. I wish I could do volunteer work & mentor with a DPS student…but just because I live in the burbs, doesn’t mean I have more time in my day.  Yes your correct that most of my concerns with Dayton are only from what I see on the 11 o’clock news or read in the DDN….yet, this morning I went to visit an Aunt at Good Sam & when I got off 75 at Salem I was harrassed by 2 young men pan handling at the exit ramp…first for $ then for a ride…until the light turned green. I won’t be downtown again alone as a young single female, for awhile.

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  8. Drexel Dave Sparks October 4, 2009 / 3:08 pm
    You will have to overcome a lot of fear before you can live in a happy life.
    What’s so scary about homeless dudes at the exit? They’re pitiful, not scary.
    I’ve lived in the city for eight years. Never had a problem with crime or personal safety. I attribute this to minding my own business and being polite.

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  9. Jules October 4, 2009 / 3:08 pm
    Please don’t make your decision about downtown based on 75 and Salem intersection–this is more towards West side anyway!  I am young woman and live downtown for over 3 years and have no issues with safety.  I walk my dog at11pm by myself, I go running at the RiverScape Park, walk to the 2nd St. Market to get my local produce, the Oregon District with the best restuarants in all Dayton region and entertainment, public library; and now since they moved the bus stop away, the Main st. is getting so much better.  Yes, there are still some bums here and there, but every city has them.  3rd St. has some nice venues as well: some artist studios, restaurants, children’s art center, traditional tea room.  Downtown is getting better, please give it another chance.

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  10. Jennifer Alexander October 4, 2009 / 5:01 pm
    It wasn’t that these young men were homeless or possibly posing as homeless & asking for $…it was the fact that when I saw them scope the several others cars & then pick me as the only female driver at the stop light & then they went well beyond aggressive with what the normal pan handler does. I sternly told them to back off & they finally did. Yet, I would not want my mother or aunts to go visit our relative at that hospital by themselves. 

    I use to go to the 2nd St. Market as well, yet now that we have farmers markets south of town & Dorthy Lane Market, I don’t find the need to go to 2nd St.  We have great restaurants south of town as well & the Centerville library is wonderful. Sorry, but RiverScape has never impressed me. When I want the art scene, which for me isn’t often due to the economy these days, I usually go to Columbus. So tell me what I should use the extra gas to come to downtown Dayton for on a regular basis? What can you offer me that I can’t already get locally? Why would I consider moving to Dayton after my child graduates…other than most of you are a helluva lot nicer than the uptight republicans in Greene County?  If you can figure out what would motivate me to drive 20 mins north on a regular basis…maybe you’d be onto something worthwhile with possibilities to revitalizing Dayton…and I’ll be your biggest cheerleader of support.

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  11. Brad October 4, 2009 / 5:32 pm
    David,

    Picking up officers that are already trained isn’t a bad idea… but that concept has been problematic.

    In the Fire Dept., that exact practice is one of the main points of the Dept. of Justice clusterf*ck that’s currently preventing any hiring (of police OR fire).

    In 2004, the first class of “professional firefighters” was hired.  This required State of Ohio Level II firefighter certification and EMT-Basic to take the civil service test.

    The reasoning was 2-fold: to (officially) save in training cost, and to (unofficially) pick up a bunch of minorities from Cleveland that had just been laid off.  None of the Cleveland guys ended up taking the job, but the past 4 classes (1 in 2004, 2 in 2006, 1 in 2007) have had these “heightened qualifications.”

    The DOJ found this practice to be discriminatory.  Apparently black people can’t attend Sinclair to get their firefighter certification like the rest of us did…. (please note thick sarcasm)

    Everyone with a pulse knows the DOJ lawsuit is a total inside job anyway (D.L.)

    But regardless, the idea of requiring police certification to take the PD civil service test isn’t gonna fly…

    Does hiring police AND fire candidates that are already certified make a ton of sense for a very financially strapped city???? of course it does…. but that’s “racist”…. duh

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  12. Gene October 4, 2009 / 7:37 pm
    “We put them at a disadvantage and then resent that they are disadvantaged and require social services.” – from tg.

    What? How did WE put THEM at a disadvantage? I did not make them have kids, I did not make them drop out of school, I did not make them commit a crime…….

    Why do we make excuses for losers? For the most part they did it to themselves. And what bothers me most is that liberals think a few homeless people is a sign of capitalism being negative….. that is crap. 99.8% of the people in the country have most everything they need. Go look at Rio and watch a wall be built to keep the millions of actually poor people out. Our poor are rich in comparison.

    Social services is a waste of money. It keeps people down. Just ask them.

    And why in the world would Oakwood want a 12% black population of kids? Sure, if black families move there. But they rarely move there. Anyone can move anywhere they want.

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  13. James October 4, 2009 / 9:27 pm
    I am very familiar with Dayton police, most of my family are officers.  I can tell you that the hiring of officers trained by other agencies is not always a good thing.  It saves money, yes, but the quality is lacking.  Sinclair and Greene county trrain their recruits to the absolute minimums required by the state.  Dayton’s academy goes way above that minimum, providing a better officer than the pay academies.  I agree Dayton’s academy could be used as a pay academy to become self sustaining.  But to hire from academies that only want the money, only teach the basic and are worried about the bottom line is not the people I want protecting my community and backing up my family.  I want a well trained Dayton academy officer doing this. 

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  14. Brad October 4, 2009 / 10:15 pm
    James,

    I’m most certainly not trying to discount the importance of the DPD Academy or DFD Training Center.  Both are top-notch, and are absolutely crucial parts of the organization.  But in the short-term, to save on administrative costs and get police/fire on the street faster, candidates that are already certified can be sent through an accelerated version of training to become “Dayton-ready”…

    But it really doesn’t matter, because this concept is negated by the above-mentioned US Dept. of Justice lawsuit…

    In the long-term, the DPD and DFD academies should absolutely be made into self-sustaining operations that provide initial certification training for both Dayton recruits and those from other agencies around the region.

    An excellent example of this already occuring is with the Dayton Fire Dept. apparatus maintenance complex on Stanley Ave.  They repair fire apparatus from cities and townships throughout the entire region, and are a money-making operation for the City.

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  15. Drexel Dave Sparks October 4, 2009 / 11:04 pm
    Where specifically does the DPD go above and beyond?
    So far, all I am hearing are vague proclamations. Not that they aren’t true, but I haven’t been led to believe that they are either.

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  16. David Lauri October 5, 2009 / 11:25 am
    So nice to see you back, Gene, spouting off about social services.  I was wondering if you were ever going to respond to these comments:
    http://esrati.com/?p=3284#comment-44685
    http://esrati.com/?p=3284#comment-44721
     
    It’d be nice if you could actually point to studies or news articles to back up statements such as “99.8% of the people in the country have most everything they need” or “Social services is a waste of money.”  Read the article I referred to in the second of the above comments (here it is again to make things easy for you — http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/02/22/caseloads.ART_ART_02-22-09_A1_87D043V.html) and tell us what you think of the woman profiled in that story.  Point us to some sources to back up your claims that welfare recipients are out to screw taxpayers and that there’s no need for social services.

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  17. Gene October 5, 2009 / 12:19 pm
    They are not dead, so I am making the assumption that they have what they need to live.

    Many people who receive welfare (from money to food stamps and all in between) use such handouts for other things, namely alcohol, tobacco, and drugs. Why quote an article when it happen a block and a half away from me. I know people who do this. I don’t have to answer any question, because my experience tells me this is happening. Yes, they screw the tax payers by using money to buy stuff they should not be doing and/or using food stamps to trade for the same items. DL, you can’t be that dumb, can you?

    Social services keep people down. Welfare (has many forms) is unhealthy and often unproductive. Yes, some people need it, but too often we have abuse. You accept abuse, I do not. You have low standards, I have high standards. You compound our nations problems, I point out the flaws in these systems.
    I can point to studies or articles. What would that prove? That we know it is a corrupt system that may work for some….. all of us know this. You are not worth my time.
    Liberals are either blind or dumb…. And if you are just soooooo generous, who about sending me money…

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  18. Drexel Dave Sparks October 5, 2009 / 1:09 pm
    It proves you refuse to do the research to back up your claims.

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  19. Gene October 5, 2009 / 1:52 pm
    http://www.bustathief.com/welfare-fraud-social-security-scam/

    http://www.spamlaws.com/welfare-fraud.html

    THEY HAVE PHONE NUMBERS TO TURN PEOPLE IN – They are well aware people cheat the system. The name Dave/David must be given out to those people who can not accept the truth. You guys are stupid if you don’t think there is welfare fraud. Google it. It exists. Go outside and talk with people. They will tell you what I am telling you. People rip off the government.

    This proves welfare fraud exists, it proves DL is wrong, it proves DDS wrong and that the “hills are alive” in the sound of music, It proves I am better than all liberals.

    I don’t need research. It is well documented that people fraud the system. I have met a few people who have defrauded the system. I have spoke to them, they admit doing it bc they think they deserve it. DDS – are you smart enough to understand that? You live in Dayton, you must have run into some sort of fraud in regards to our welfare system.

    Again, that is…………. Check and mate……….

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  20. Drexel Dave Sparks October 5, 2009 / 2:52 pm
    I never claimed you were wrong to begin with, so how can that prove me wrong?

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  21. Gene October 5, 2009 / 2:55 pm
    You said it proves I refuse to do the research, well I did some and therefore you are wrong.
     

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  22. Drexel Dave Sparks October 5, 2009 / 3:03 pm
    Incorrect. At the time I posted that, you had done none.  You don’t get to be retroactively correct.

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  23. David Lauri October 5, 2009 / 3:26 pm
    Neither http://www.bustathief.com/welfare-fraud-social-security-scam/ nor http://www.spamlaws.com/welfare-fraud.html offers any proof that “99.8% of the people in the country have most everything they need.”
     
    Also, neither of the sites you posted gives any details as to the scope of the problem.  The first site you gave gives no examples; the second site gives examples from 1972-78, 1977, 1978, and 1981.  You’ve proven that sometimes people have cheated the system, but you haven’t shown that it’s an ongoing recent problem. Four examples from the 70s and early 80s do not prove that “social services is a waste of money.”
     
    Feel free to try again.

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  24. Gene October 5, 2009 / 3:46 pm
    DDS – I had done research, I just did not post it, nor did I ever refuse.

    DL – the 99.8% comment was AFTER your original question – which was do tax payers get screwed by people on welfare. The answer is yes.

    http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/fraud/PG270.htm

    What about the guy down the street who told me he screws the system. Or the guy that owns the convenient store in N Dayton that gets social security for being crazy yet works his business.

    The 99.8% comment is my assumption. I assume most people have what they NEED bc they are alive. If they did not have what they need they would be dead. NEED can be defined in many ways. You think need is cash and fast food and flat screen tvs. I do not.

    DL – go get your 5.

    Why is it so hard for you to understand the welfare fraud exists. It does. If you have ever spent any welfare money on any drug, alcohol, tobacco, fast food, etc – that is fraud. Making money and not claiming it while receiving welfare is fraud. Having kids while on welfare is fraud. Saying you have more kids than you really do is fraud. Taking money or food or drugs for a “nights” rent if you live in section 8 housing is fraud. Using food stamps for Coleman steaks at DLM is fraud. Trading  food stamps for anything is fraud. Wasting food you bought with food stamps is fraud. Not looking for a job while on welfare is fraud. I could go on and on.

    Check and mate. This is too easy fellas.

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  25. David Lauri October 5, 2009 / 3:50 pm
    I’ll give you a hint, Gene, if you really want to do some research on the extent of welfare fraud.  It seems there’s an organization called the Ohio Council on Welfare Fraud with a website at: http://www.ocowf.org
     
    You’ll have to delve into newsletters to get any statistics — apparently the problem of welfare fraud in Ohio isn’t widespread enough for OCWF to post the shocking statistics on the front page of their website or anywhere other than perhaps in their PDF newsletters.
     
    On such newsletter ( http://www.ocowf.org/Uploaded/Documents/Spring%20Summer%202009%20Part%202.pdf ) reports that 204 Butler County residents out of 4,547 applicants in January through March 2009 were “erroneously given food stamps.”  The article reports that about half of those mistaken cases were the agency’s fault, in other words, not people trying to cheat the system but people who applied for food stamps but then were told mistakenly that they qualified for them.  OCWF doesn’t seem to be taking a dim view of the people who mistakenly got the food stamps, instead saying that having to return the money they received erroneously “can be a tough blow for someone so needy they sought public assistance in the first place.”
     
    Of course this article is about food stamp recipients, not welfare recipients.  I wonder if you can find any stats to back up your claim that the majority of the 186,985 Ohioans currently receiving welfare (a figure from the Dispatch article I linked to above) are trying to “cheat the system.”

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  26. Gene October 5, 2009 / 4:05 pm
    A) it was an example, which you asked for. B) genius, these were situations that people got caught. There are plenty of people who get away with fraud. And you just admitted fraud exists, so I win. That is all I ever said. Fraud exists, which screws tax payers.
    Welfare in any form, including section 8, food stamps, etc. is what I am referring to. And if you don’t work and receive any form of welfare you are cheating the system. Those who receive cheat it a little bit here and there. Maybe not everyone, but enough to bilk billions of dollars from taxpayers. You are clueless.
    I gave examples. I know 2 different people who do this. Fraud exists. You are naive. Now get a clue and go get your 5.

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  27. Jeff October 5, 2009 / 4:20 pm
    Beyond all that, what I get torked off about the most is that all the social ills are pushed to the urban core and then suburbanites say ‘well, just because you can’t get your act together, it’s not our problem.’   I wish someone in the City would stand up and say to the surrounding municipalities “pony up, support us, or finance and maintain your own court system, jail, homeless shelters, jobs & family services, methadone clinics and plasma centers.  Get your own SWAT team and crime lab. ”
     

    Social problems aren’t pushed within the city limits. They collect there.    I would argue that there is a countywide financial responsibility already occuring via the social service levy, and the county does operate the county jail.
     
    If the issue is the physical location of this stuff, they are centrally located because Dayton is the county seat and the hub of the public transit system.  And, frankly, the city residents arent as organized via NIMBY movements to fight locations of  things like homeless shelters and methadone clinics.
     
    Historically, though, unwanted activities were located out in some remote site.  For example the workhouse and the infirmary were out in Jefferson Township back in the 1920s or maybe even earlier.
     
     
     
     
     
     

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  28. Jeff October 5, 2009 / 4:27 pm
    In the long-term, the DPD and DFD academies should absolutely be made into self-sustaining operations that provide initial certification training for both Dayton recruits and those from other agencies around the region.
     
     
    The idea of a consolidated training site that supports a region is the idea behind Joint Vocational Schools and also behind the Calamityville project (which goes well beyond the region).   Having a Dayton Region Public Safety Academy would ensure that all the LEOs have the same basic training, but then there could be advanced training for specific deparments, like Dayton or the county sheriff.   The same with firefighters.

    How this works with the DoJ suit I dont know.  Seems the issue is recruit in, but still ensure the same level of training for both black and white officers?
     

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  29. Jeff October 5, 2009 / 4:35 pm

    It wasn’t that these young men were homeless or possibly posing as homeless & asking for $…it was the fact that when I saw them scope the several others cars & then pick me as the only female driver at the stop light & then they went well beyond aggressive with what the normal pan handler does. I sternly told them to back off & they finally did. Yet, I would not want my mother or aunts to go visit our relative at that hospital by themselves.

     
     
    Yeah, I just had an experience with a panhandler while parked in the Orange Julius parking lot.  He actually came up to my car to ask for some money.  I thought that was more brazen than usual as, so far, my experience with Dayton panhandlers is they will approach you on the street but not in your car.  Always a first time, I guess.

    I use to go to the 2nd St. Market as well, yet now that we have farmers markets south of town & Dorthy Lane Market, I don’t find the need to go to 2nd St.  We have great restaurants south of town as well & the Centerville library is wonderful. Sorry, but RiverScape has never impressed me. When I want the art scene, which for me isn’t often due to the economy these days, I usually go to Columbus. So tell me what I should use the extra gas to come to downtown Dayton for on a regular basis? What can you offer me that I can’t already get locally? Why would I consider moving to Dayton after my child graduates…other than most of you are a helluva lot nicer than the uptight republicans in Greene County?  If you can figure out what would motivate me to drive 20 mins north on a regular basis…maybe you’d be onto something worthwhile with possibilities to revitalizing Dayton…and I’ll be your biggest cheerleader of support.

     
     
    Umlike you I prefer to head down to Cincinnati.  Maybe because it seems more urban, more big-city..  And Findaly Market has a real good selection of food (but the neighborhood would freak you out)   Columbus is nice.  It is pretty arty..they have some good shows at the Wexner and they have great American Realism shows at their art institute, artistis like Charles Burchfield and George Tooker.  When in Cols you should check out North Market, north of downton Cols, near the convention center.  It is like a considerably larger 2nd Street Market.

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  30. David Lauri October 5, 2009 / 8:15 pm
    And you just admitted fraud exists, so I win. That is all I ever said.
    Actually that’s not all you ever said.  And I never said fraud doesn’t exist.  What I did say was that you hadn’t proven your claims that “99.8% of the people in the country have most everything they need” or that “social services is a waste of money.”  And I still say you haven’t proven your claims.
     
    But you know what?  Debating you is a waste of time.  Actually if I were you, I would undoubtedly feel just as you do.  And thus I’m going to try my damnedest, no matter how outrageous and unsupported by facts your statements ever are, not to bother responding to you again.

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  31. Dayton Crime October 5, 2009 / 8:27 pm
    @ David Esrati: what court order are you referring to? Just curious.

    @ Gene: I’m not disagreeing with what you said, but personal anecdotes usually don’t count as proof, much less “check and mate”.

    @ Jeff: seconded on the North Market in Columbus. Wonderful place.

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  32. Gene October 5, 2009 / 8:47 pm
    What I am talking about is welfare and fraud. Again, BH, the 99.8% comment came on this post, you were referring to another post. I said that T and C, but my comments regarding welfare and fraud are right on the money.

    All my comment are in regards to the following:

    “So nice to see you back, Gene, spouting off about social services.  I was wondering if you were ever going to respond to these comments:
    http://esrati.com/?p=3284#comment-44685
    http://esrati.com/?p=3284#comment-44721
     
    Actually, I know a third guy that used to defraud the system in the mid 1990’s. I don’t care if people say it is not proof, it just happens to be true. I know these people. They f*cked the system and brag about it. That is a fact in my life. And these people are losers, bc all three work(ed) and make plenty of money yet get (got) checks from the government. What BS.

    Go get your 5 DL.

    99.8% of people know that people who receive welfare f*ck taxpayers. I have less money because these people can not help themselves. I pay my taxes and watch people piss all over the system, buying things they don’t need, like drugs or gum or guns or expensive beef or alcohol or designer jeans. It exists. I win again!

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  33. David Esrati October 5, 2009 / 10:18 pm

    @davidl it’s best to leave most of what Gene writes alone. He likes to bait and attack. Not much constructive conversation going on. Sorry it’s taken you so long to realize it.

    @Daytoncrime- court order: desegregation (busing) Dayton was forced to integrate- none of the suburbs were.

    We traded racial segregation for economic segregation- at a huge cost to Dayton.

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  34. Gene October 5, 2009 / 10:31 pm
    Bait and attack? Whatever. My only point is that there is a lot of fraud (big and small) in all welfare, corporate welfare included. That was my only point. He wanted 89 examples. There is no need for all of that…….. I fully expect people who can not manage their own life to mismanage things handed to them. The math is not that hard….

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  35. Tim Bailey October 6, 2009 / 8:19 am
    There are people who actually need a leg-up via welfare or private donation. The number of these people who are legitimately destitute – in my observation are barely a fraction of people who my hard earned money is going to support.
     
    Gene has extremely valid points. If any of the people challenging him with absurd references to exact statistics have not witnessed the rampant abuse of the welfare system in our area – I implore you to open your eyes and observe the checkout at Kroger for 15 minutes. Or watch the checkout counter at at a convenience store for a couple of minutes. The system is broken. There are people pulling out wads of cash to buy beer and cigarettes – but need to put the beef jerky and chips and pop and Red Bull and ice cream on a separate transaction so they can put it on their EBT or Ohio Direction Card or whatever you want to call the card that has money from all of our paychecks on it. I could bore you with countless other stories about people working under the table making 60-100k/year and getting Section 8 Housing Subsidies and Food Stamps AND selling/trading their food stamp money for Vicodin and cocaine – if that is what you want – I would be glad to; but I am simply stating that before any government body moves forward with any of the countless initiatives they have planned for welfare, healthcare, corporate bailouts, buying car companies, etc., they need to fix what they have already done.
     
    One simple solution that could kill two birds with one stone would be to hire a private company to audit these programs and individuals receiving our tax money in the form of support and eliminate fraud on a case by case basis. We employ people and we clean the welfare books.  They would be paid based on a percentage of the amount of fraud they find. Simply put, everyone who gets an automatic disbursement every 1st of the month will receive an explanation of FRAUD and will be told that if fraud is found there will be no more money given. Win-Win: we eliminate wasteful spending on leaches so we can focus on David’s philosophy of spending on items that provide the greatest good for the greatest number.
     
    The bonus to this plan is that if Montgomery County is one of the first to ‘crack down’ on the widespread abuse, maybe the nonproductive people will move to a county where they can milk the system and it will make room for productive people who want to EARN their keep rather than simply BREATHING for the keep that is deducted from our paychecks.
     
    Just an idea! Let’s keep fighting to change things for the better.

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  36. Gene October 6, 2009 / 7:02 pm
    Home Run Tim. The people in Dayton don’t see this because they turn their heads when their mom/dad/kid/brother/sister do things like this…….. Esrati has it right with corporate welfare, and it applies to individual welfare as well. Why would we trust those people who take handouts to begin with, evidently they did not plan or work towards things that would allow them not to use and abuse the system. Only a few truly use it for the intended reasons. And those who abuse it do so only some of the time, but that is enough to me to take it away from them.

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  37. Larkin October 8, 2009 / 2:12 am
    Jennifer Alexander, too bad your daughter didn’t have what it takes to get into Stivers, which certainly ranks above anything Kettering has to offer for schools.  We were out to dinner the other night at Coco’s (downtown) and were much amused to see the Oakwood kids out for homecoming, dressing up in imitation of actual urban kids. We live on Riverview (on the dreaded west side Jules is so afraid of) and we get off at Salem and 75 several times a week for the last two years and have NEVER EVER been hassled by a panhandler there. Frankly, I think you made it up– feed into the old “Scary Dayton” BS.  We paid cash for our house, a turn of the century brick Victorian on three city lots and it came with a Wolf range and a grand piano. We know all of our neighbors and chat with them regularly. Until you can stop viewing fellow humans (who may happen to have a different skin color) with fear and distrust, you deserve the suburbs and it’s deeper sand into which you can bury your head.

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  38. Valerie October 8, 2009 / 3:36 am
    Larkin, Stivers is a remarkable school but it’s an arts magnet. There are plenty of very bright and talented kids who would not benefit from that particular curriculum.  And as a person who works downtown in the service industry, I can tell you that there are a lot of Oakwood residents who are downtown Dayton’s biggest cheerleaders and paying customers.   Until you can stop viewing fellow humans who may not have a Dayton zip code with disdain — well, let’s just say there’s more than one stereotyping sandtrap one’s head can be buried in.

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  39. Gene October 8, 2009 / 8:18 am
    True, Oakwood people have supported downtown for years, much much more than fellow suburbs. In fact a lot of people who live in Oakwood do so bc of it proximity to Downtown.  A lot of Oakwood is closer the the CBD than parts of Dayton.

    Keep railing on Oakwood Larkin. Those are the kids that will support the arts programs your kid will eventually work in – go figure.

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  40. Jeff October 8, 2009 / 9:14 am
    Larkin….let it go….Your racist banter gets old.  Jennifer Alexander never injected race into her post, but you ALWAYS do.  Get over it.  Here is an idea, some people, white and black don’t feel safe in this city, they want their kids to get a good education.  Where do they go to find safety and get better schools?  To the burbs, they have been doing it for years.  No one cares about where you live or what came with your home, no one cares that it is worth less now than when you bought it.  You can go on and on about how the west side is painted with one broad stroke but the facts speak for themselves, it is a dangerous part of town and the majority (over 90%) of the homicides happen there, year after year after year.  Quit hating on those who choose safety and education over bars on your windows.

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  41. Gene October 8, 2009 / 9:36 am
    It is her justification for being different. She is deep. And Complex. And dreams the dreams of dreamers. She is unique to the point of being the same. It is important that we know that she is open minded and passionate. Those beyond the city borders are all the same. Pale white with loafers. Non-thinkers, television watching, meatloaf eating, SUV driving cogs. They add nothing but the tax money to fund her neighborhood full of the unemployed and criminal and abusers of this and that. Oh, what I life she leads.

    Deep and complex. Complex and deep. Passionate beyond those white fences…….. Passionate.

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  42. Larkin October 8, 2009 / 1:31 pm
    Gene, enough is enough. I don’t think I’m wonderfully complex and different. I think people are foolish not to take advantage of the opportunities that exist here.  I spent the 18 of the last 20 years in the whitest place on earth– and I don’t understand why anyone stays in that Godforsaken place either except that it’s been sold to them by Hollywood.
     
    “Jeff,” (aka “Brilliant” lol)  of course race is exactly part of what “Jennifer” was talking about it. It’s what everybody is talking about when they speak euphemistically of the “west side.” And frankly, I don’t give a damn what you care about.
     
    And I’ve had enough of this. With a few exceptions its just the same hens clucking away on these pages day after day.  I’ve got better things to do with my time. Cheerio!

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  43. Gene October 8, 2009 / 2:45 pm
    What opportunity? Living on the West side? I thought people lived over there.

    I was complimenting who you are Larkin. You like to be different. You stated (in a previous post) as much.

    What is wrong with living with white people? Do you have to go out of your way to live with black people? I just live where I could walk to things, the “right place” for me, relatively safe for Dayton. I did not go door to door asking who would be my neighbors.

    And what happens when blacks live among only blacks? Do we drill them for that? NO.

    BTW, I live among Mexicans (legal) , blacks, whites, students ( mix bag there, including Europeans and Asians, oh no :) ! )

    Some of these people are men, others woman, some criminals, some not. I never for one moment considered who my neighbors would be. I just like the proximity to family, friends, Downtown, and other places. And the price was right.

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  44. Jeff October 8, 2009 / 4:21 pm
    Larkin, you will be back.  People like you need to hear themselves being heard.  You need validation that all that hate in your head belongs shouldered by the rest of us because we were born “too white” to ever know what it feels like to be lumped into some crappy group.  I hope that you find happiness in whatever group you consider your friends.  In most normal groups you stand out as a bigot, but being from the west side, I guess that makes you an activist.  So your going to find better things to do with your time now?  I hear ACORN is hiring.  You would fit in perfectly.

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  45. David Esrati October 8, 2009 / 4:29 pm

    This whole thread has gotten out of hand. Please stop attacking each other.

    Stick to attacking me, it’s all the rage these days.

    :-)

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