A lesson for Dayton- and the rest of the country

As long as we have a patchwork taxation system, we’ll have companies moving around for the best possible situation. Tax evasion/aversion shouldn’t be part of any business model, but, in these days of short term goals over long term plans- we see many such shortsighted moves (NCR to NYC and Atlanta?)

American Greetings Corp., the nation’s largest publicly held greeting card manufacturer, is exploring moving its global headquarters from Brooklyn to another community – maybe even out of state – with lower taxes.

In an internal memo sent to employees on Wednesday, the company said: “we are launching a study to consider whether or not we should move the company’s world headquarters to another location” because the City of Brooklyn last spring voted to raise the city’s payroll tax 25 percent, to 2.5 percent from 2.0 percent.

via American Greetings may pull its world headquarters out of Brooklyn, Ohio | Business – cleveland.com – – cleveland.com.

We saw Reynolds and Reynolds move to Kettering and win an instant .5% pay raise for non-Dayton residents employed at the firm long ago. It might not make much difference to you making $50K a year, but when you are earning $7mill like NCR CEO’s that’s big bucks.

It’s time to at least level the playing field locally- and have one local income tax county wide- with one collection agency. It would make business easier- and simpler. As to companies moving- let’s also stop tax-payer funded “incentives” and get back to sound business decisions- like how close to my workforce can I locate? A walk to work tax credit– would make a huge impact on stopping sprawl which costs our communities higher operating overhead due to the larger infrastructure footprint.

This argument about income tax has stopped the merger of Centerville and Washington TWP for years. They share schools- but, force the Sheriff to patrol the TWP- and cut income tax revenue from the Dayton Mall. It’s one more way we all get manipulated by a system that has sold out to the highest bidders.

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14 Responses

  1. Bubba Jones January 15, 2010 / 11:07 am
    The Dayton Mall is in Miami Township, not Washington Township or Centerville.
     
    So, David, while your idea (one tax rate / collection agency)  sounds good on the surface, how do you see it administered?  And, at what rate?  And how would it be distributed?  By where it was earned or by where the person earning it lives?
     
    Dayton has the second highest rate in the county.  Do we go with their rate?   Or do we go with Oakwood’s rate of 2.5%?  By the way, do you know the logic behind Oakwood’s rate?
     
    You are so hung up on this “walk to work” credit.  Quite frankly, it’s a dumb idea, especially in today’s world.  It might make sense for something like a coal mine operation where you have a “company town” that is in close proximity to the mine, but how can you honestly think that a business, especially on that employs more than a handful of employees, can figure out where all of their employees are going to come from?  That’s really going to limit the talent pool if a company only hires people that live within a 2 or 3 mile radius (a comfortable walking distance) of the business.  What about a “telecomuting credit” for companies that create jobs that can be done from home instead?
  2. Robert Vigh January 15, 2010 / 11:18 am
    Yeah, how about any credit based on David’s preferences that take from one person and give to David’s preferences. I wish I was a David.
  3. David Esrati January 15, 2010 / 12:49 pm

    @Bubba- Oakwood charges 2.5% so that the residents of Oakwood who work in Dayton still pay into Oakwood.

    The rate would be considerably less than 2.25% and would be distributed per capita- no crazy reporting on where worked, where live, etc. All through the county.

  4. David Esrati January 15, 2010 / 12:53 pm

    @Bubba- on walk to work- it’s instead of giving them NOTHING. Which is how it should be. My tax dollars aren’t for venture capital to private corporations.

  5. Bubba Jones January 15, 2010 / 1:55 pm
    But you can’t have it both ways, David!!  Either you’re OK with tax credits (along with your pet credit) or you’re against all of them!!  You keep saying things like we need to end corporate welfare and that tax policy shouldn’t be used to modify behavior but then you want companies to modify their behavior by locating where their employees live so they can get a tax credit.  Make up your mind!! :)
     
    By the way, at the Federal level, how do you feel about charging a surtax on “Cadillac Health Plans.”
     
    Very good on the Oakwood tax.  I think you’re going to have a hard time convincing the people that currently live in non-taxing districts to start paying an income tax, no matter what the rate.  If my failing memory is correct, Beavercreek (Greene Co.) hasn’t been too successful in getting that issue passed.
  6. David Esrati January 15, 2010 / 1:59 pm

    @Bubba-

    I’m not asking for it both ways. The tax credit I’m offering is UNIVERSAL- just meet the requirements, compared to all the “incentive” packages that are doled out to “friends and family”

    I don’t believe in the surtax- because I don’t believe in “Health Insurance”- I believe in single payer- and universal HEALTH CARE.

    Yep – it will be a hard sell to go to single income tax- but- it’s a regional issue. All of these battles will be difficult.

  7. Robert Vigh January 15, 2010 / 3:01 pm
    There is no such thing as a universal tax credit. The credit is based on someone’s preferences (yours in this case) and if you met that preference you get a credit. Thereby giving credits to people of preference and raising the tax burden on everyone that does not meet your preference. Corporate welfare is identical to the types of credits that you espouse, they are simply someone else’s preferences .vs your own. This is what makes alot of your statements hypocritical, that you would in fact tax and spend according to your preferences if given the opportunity. You decry the use of public money for things that you do not like and in the same breathe will declare the Esrati preference plan.
    You might want to clarify on this point as well:  “The rate would be considerably less than 2.25% and would be distributed per capita- no crazy reporting on where worked, where live, etc. All through the county.”
    Are you saying you would distribute the tax money to each person equally? As in, it does not matter what you pay, you get an equal cut?
    You don’t believe in Freedom David. You should pin down your philosophy. You think that we should be forced to combine for universal coverage and you think it should be outlawed to contract freely with other individuals to have health insurance.
    Do you think it is right to have in the universal healthcare bill that I can be fined and go to jail if I dont want to take part?
  8. David Lauri January 15, 2010 / 4:00 pm
    Robert, none of the health care reform bills propose jail terms for people who don’t take part.  What they propose is tax penalties for those who don’t take part.
     
    Existing laws already say that if you try to evade paying taxes then imprisonment is a possible penalty, but that’s already the law.  Disagree with the tax structure of the United States for whatever reason and decline to pay the taxes you’re supposed to pay, and sure, prison is something you might have to face.  This is not something new.
     
    See http://factcheck.org/2009/11/imprisoned-for-not-having-health-care/.
  9. David Esrati January 15, 2010 / 4:18 pm

    @Robert V. you are starting to sound like Gene.

    A “universal tax credit”- is one that anyone is eligible for if they meet certain requirements- as opposed to a tax credit or incentive handed out to a specific business for relocation- or for “expansion promises”

    Either your employees live near where they work- or they don’t.  It is beneficial to the entire country to have more people walk to work: they are healthier, they don’t use imported oil, they don’t put wear and tear on the streets, they don’t emit tailpipe emissions- etc.

    And no- I don’t give the income tax back to the people- Why do you have to be such an idiot- it goes to the cities- as it does now- but, it goes to each based on population- per capita.

    Btw- if you hate my opinions so much- why do you waste so much time here? And- btw, if you want to keep yapping about your freedom- I want to see your DD-214. Or are you another “patriot” who never served. I put 7 years in the Army, what did you do?

  10. Robert Vigh January 15, 2010 / 4:52 pm
    Gene is not so bad. He makes alot of points (with some attitude) that you are often not able to address with philosophy of merit.

    Like your universal tax credit .vs expansion credits. Anyone that can meet expansion or relocation requirements is eligible. Anyone that can meet your walk to work credit is eligible. It is your preference .vs someone elses. It a total bill is due and you lower the amount that one group has to pay, does it not increase the portion of the bill everyone else pays? You are re-allocating wealth based on your preference for walking. The rest is your version of sugar coated crap “it helps people be healthy”. Blah blah blah. Inconsistent and hypocritical.

    Per capita per city. So, if Oakwood pays an average per capita of $2500 and the rest of the county pays $1000, then you are redistributing wealth from oakwood to other neighborhoods. I asked the question on a per person basis, so I am an idiot for not realizing you felt it was ok to take from larger geographic regions as a whole. Whoops, I did not correctly categorize your bad idea.

    I dont hate opinions. I just think most of yours are wrong. I also do not consider it a waste to have the opportunity to express my own opinions. It is good practice for my own underlying beliefs and my writing style. It also lets me formulate ideas and responses to things that I perceive as immoral that could potentially affect me in the future. 

    I did not serve in the military. But, I think your comment makes you feel like you are more patriotic. That your service has somehow elevated your citizenship. It is probably why you do not realize you are a hypocrit with many of your ideas. It is your express arrogance that probably contributes to this. My posting has never been nasty, nor filled with name calling. If posting opposition to your ideas really causes your panties to get this wadded up, just say the word and I shall delete your site and never post again.

  11. David Esrati January 15, 2010 / 5:37 pm

    @Robert V.

    You don’t have a clue how local income tax works now. You live in Oakwood- you work somewhere else (since there are few employers in that bedroom community)- you pay the income tax where YOU WORK- so Dayton gets the income from Oakwood residents if you work in Dayton. With my solution- the money is distributed to every community equally- much more “democratic” and easier on business.

    And you are WRONG about the expansion credits- and or relo credits- there is no follow up on at all on promises made. The money is handed out without a formula or function. This is political- not a method of implementing things for general welfare- it unbalances the playing field.

    Frankly, I find most of your responses painfully similar- like a broken record. I don’t hear many ideas- I don’t see links to information that’s beneficial to moving the conversation forward. Just constant attacks and requests for “justification”- because you can’t fathom what’s being discussed as anything other than an additional infringements on your anarchists utopia.

    If you went away tomorrow- I wouldn’t miss you. Can’t say that about Jeffery from Daytonology, David Lauri. Jstults, John Ise or other contributors- I look forward to their posts and feedback.

  12. Bubba Jones January 16, 2010 / 1:11 pm
    >>> Frankly, I find most of your responses painfully similar- like a broken record. <<<  WOW!  That’s really the pot calling the kettle black!!  David, just as RV’s comments and ideas are a reflection of his political and social ideology, so are yours.  You’ve been harping about this “walk to work” ever since I first came across your blog several years ago.  And, your “new idea” about a single income tax rate across the county that would be “distributed on a per capita basis” is just another version of wealth redistribution that you’ve touted before.
     
    You’ve said before that you enjoy engaging people and getting them to think but that seems to be the case only when they agree with you.  RV has always been civil in his posts yet you have responded to him with things like “you’re talking out of your butt – again” and telling him that he “doesn’t have a clue.”  Where is the professionalism and civility in those comments?  And today you mention his “anarchists utopia.”  RV has never advocated anarchy unless you consider that pesky little thing called The Constitution of the United States a guide to anarchy.
     
    >>> If you went away tomorrow- I wouldn’t miss you. <<<  Do you feel the same way about me?  (BTW, that question is ONLY for DE!!)  I didn’t see my name among those whose posts and feedback that you look forward to.  I disagree with you 90+% of the time so maybe I should just go away too.   You’ll never convince me that your socialist utopia is the way to go and I’ll never be able to show you just how wrong your way of thinking truly is, but I didn’t think that was the point of this blog.  I thought it was meant as a vehicle where people of divergent backgrounds with differing ideas and opinions could engage in civil conversation.  Am I wrong?
     
    >>> You’ll never convince me that your socialist utopia is the way to go and I’ll never be able to show you just how wrong your way of thinking truly is <<< BTW, David – that’s meant as a friendly joke between you and I. :)
     
  13. Ice Bandit January 16, 2010 / 4:44 pm
    Btw- if you hate my opinions so much- why do you waste so much time here? And- btw, if you want to keep yapping about your freedom- I want to see your DD-214. Or are you another “patriot” who never served. I put 7 years in the Army, what did you do?
    Wow, David, I haven’t seen anybody that angry with someone else’s  opinion since some hombre showed up at a city commission in a ninja suit. And by the by, David, throwing the “vet card” gives one’s thesis no greater validity than throwing the race card or the gender card. Sure, the Old Bandito spent time ground-pounding in southeast asia during the Era of Great Discord, but since his conscription was certainly not voluntary and came thru the fiat of an unaccountabe draft board, does that service count using the Esrati gauge?………
  14. Civil Servants are People, Too January 17, 2010 / 2:29 am
     
    I think a universal local income tax would be a great idea.   The problem would be that every State has a different tax system.   Some states, like Ohio, really depend on income taxes.   Other states depend more on property taxes.   Still others depend on sales tax.   So a universal local tax would not stop the problem of corporations moving from one state to another.
     
    So the better answer would be a national system of taxation.  Oh wait…
     
     

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