For as long as I’ve been in Dayton, the Montgomery County Democratic Party has been the least “democratic” organization in town. Joe Shump ruled for years with a style more akin to a Russian Czar. When Dennis Lieberman took over, the old ways were hard to stop: closed door meetings, no active recruitment of ward and precinct captains- it was still run like a private club.
People got places because of who they knew and snuggled up to. People in power, tended to stay in power- so much so that many potential good leaders got disgusted and walked away (Victor Harris got snubbed for wanting to have the chance to run for State Rep against the insider Roland Winburn- Bill Littlejohn switched parties- and then handed out dummy voter cards with his picture next to every Democratic Candidate).
It worked for years thanks to the ability of the Party to use their get-out-the-vote (GOTV to political junkies) expertise to drive (literally and figuratively) the West Side to the polls. Now that they’ve suffered their first major defeat in grand fashion with the dethroning of their queen, Rhine McLin, there is a lot of finger pointing going on inside and outside the party.
The last putsch, just before the presidential election where Dayton Clerk of Courts, Mark Owens pushed Lieberman out was engineered by about a half-dozen people, none of whom have the skills needed to run a party effectively. They rose to power based on cronyism and believe that they rightfully deserve and are entitled to ultimate power. I’m not saying Lieberman was any more worthy, but as the machine had rolled so effectively for so long, people made assumptions and we all know what happens when you base decisions on assumptions.
The number of people who feel disconnected from the party is growing. The question of how much money did they sell out to Issue 3 for may be the wrecking ball to the Mark Owens short lived dynasty. People may not follow like sheep if they see that McLin gets left out of the gravy train that they’ve all been accustomed to (she needs a job for at least 3 years paying considerably more than the $50 odd K that she made in the State house to pad her pension) yet- it may be hard to place her due to thin budgets and her lack of credible skills.
The first step in the overthrow will be to identify who exactly belongs to the Montgomery County Democratic Party central committee, and who all the ward and precinct captains are (at least half are empty) and start finding people to fill the uncontested seats and others to run against the entrenched good ole boy network (that includes quite a few women).
Don’t expect to see this covered anywhere but here. The Dayton Daily News editorial page editor, Ellen Belcher is best friends with one of the people at the “top” of this failing organization. However, seeing as they’ve lost the faith, trust and respect of quite a few of the most powerful people who have been elected thanks to the old regime, don’t expect them to stay silent now that the once mighty machine has shown it has major cracks in it. Also, don’t expect the State party to look favorably on the loss of a Mayorship, or the support of Issue 3. They still keep score at the State level, and have a governors race to win. If the party can’t deliver a Mayor, someone will be looking for help delivering Montgomery County for a Governor who isn’t looking too solid right now.
I’ll be publishing the list of precinct captains once I get it- along with a Google Maps precinct mashup thanks to one of my readers to make it easier to determine where you live. We’ll see if we can recruit a force to bring democracy to the democratic party- even if it has to come kicking and screaming.
Viva la revolution!
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{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
This anti-party sentiment seems to have some national traction as well:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/11/9/802538/-Ditch-the-DCCC
“So here’s the bottom line — skip any donations to the DCCC. Their first priority is incumbent retention, and they’re (necessarily) issue agnostic. They’ll be dumping millions into defending these seats. Instead, give to those elected officials who best reflect your values.” – kos
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@Bill- until we have true campaign finance reform- all political elections in this country will continue to elect pawns of those with money- or as I call them “The best politicians money can buy.”
The election of Gary Leitzell may be the jolt in the arm that we need locally to reexamine not only the powers that have driven our elections- but the process as well. That’s why I’m spearheading the “Dayton Process” to change the playing field and the way we nominate, promote and learn about candidates- as well as how we elect them.
The KOS point is almost moot- it’s just a complaint that the DCCC couldn’t get enough money to compete with the lobbyists. The whole system is borked. We can fix it.
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The two party system falsely alleviates frustration with one controlling party by giving the illusion of choice to elect the other party’s candidates. While the talking points are somewhat different between Dems and Repubs, they follow the same government expansive policies. The average citizens vote, instead of being based on reason, becomes a vote based on emotion. These are my observations and opinions. Hopefully, the wording is not too “absolute” to mask the intended meaning.
Whether the people manage to re-claim either party, or band together to promote and vote for independents we need to keep the momentum going. I think you have some really strong ideas David E.. Now we need to rally the right people to carry them into action and I think the timing couldn’t be better.
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I agree with many of the points you are all talking about. The Montgomery Co. Republican Party needs some reform also!
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As the most recent xkcd — http://xkcd.com/661/ — points out (you have to hover over the cartoon and read the tooltip), an answer is Instant Runoff Voting — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting . If we had IRV, people could vote for third party candidates without the fear that they’d be throwing their votes away and enabling the worse of either major party candidate to get elected.
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A quorum of the Central Committee is never called at monthly meetings because there is never a quorum. I’ve been a precinct captain off and on for years and I have NEVER had any direct contact with my ward “leader” despite having attempted numerous times to get a response. Most of the so called elected only show up for party endorsements with their hands outstretched for $$. The so called executive committee makes decisions in a [semi] secret meeting before the general meeting.
The crucial question I see missing from your plan, David, is the Ideological one. What exactly does it mean to be a Democrat? Will your plan attract progressives or more Gary Leitzels? I am fully in favor of shaking up the party structure and making it more democratic [small d] BUT not at the expense of sliding to the right.
Will Rogers once said “I’m a Democrat, I don’t belong to an organized party.” and he was correct. The Democrats are really a coalition of diverse forces with some common but largely ill/undefined self- interests. Some of it is simply that people want to be in opposition to the Party of No.
The Dayton process is a good idea, but your willingness to help all comers, seemingly without regard to their politics, just to get people running for office, is a very bad idea in my book. There are plenty of available tools for conservatives and wing nuts to get involved without having progressives facilitating their wackiness.
Your “first” step is a basic one, Precinct captains make up the Central Committee, and, under the by laws of the party, are THE FINAL DECISION MAKING BODY of the organization. Captains are elected in Gubernatorial race years [ on the ballot ] and appointed by the Executive committee otherwise at the monthly meeting.
I’m very interested in seeing how you plan to proceed. Is there to be a rump caucus meeting soon?
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BTW/Time to study up on your Roberts Rules of Order because they will surely come into play in any intra-party fight.
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@Gary
Your irrational fear of “the right” blinds you. The Democratic Party is just as corrupted by the special interests of labor unions as the Republican Party is by the special interests of big business.
It is not up to me to decide what is right- it is up to a healthy functioning party to decide. The fundamental values of the Democratic party in my eyes are to provide a level playing field for all, opportunities for individual advancement because of an understanding that education, safety and good health are fundamental rights- as are the rights to family planning and the understanding that science comes before religion.
There will be a redistricting that will cut the number of precinct captains from the unmanageable 548 to a more manageable 360, cutting out 188 (fixed 14 Nov) of the required seats. This will make it possible for them to consolidate power.
As to helping everyone with the process and letting the voters decide- hopefully it is based on the merit of their ideas, their vitae, and their commitment to the community, which has to be better than their ability to suck up to party leadership or to sell-out to special interests.
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This is a really great discussion.
Bill’s quote of Kos and Jeff Wellbaum’s sentiments are both dead-on. Anyone who really listens to the heart of the ’tea party’ right’s discontent knows that they are up in arms about being used and abused by the R party for so long and to such a detriment of the country. A coalition of political independents with the best ideas from the left and the right is what we really need.
I think, especially at a local level, the two party system serves little to no good to anyone other than the parties. I’ve advocated a local political party for awhile (kinda like Cincinnati’s Charterites). Just think: an issue-based, non-partisan, pro-Dayton, pro-regional improvement party. Call it the Patterson Party (after JHP, a true Dayton Original) and try to change the discussion into real action for all of Dayton. It wouldn’t be easy because so many of our ‘leaders’ are busy catering to either the Rs or the Ds but it could be done if the case is made by original thinkers.
Esrati’s “Dayton Process” is an excellent first step toward realizing that vision. Power to the people, viva la revolution!
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Do you really, really believe this??
Please clarify which are the special interests of Unions/Labor that are corrupt as those of the Republican Party. That is a pretty damning accusation that need to be backed up with plenty of empirical evidence and not just hyperbole. Yes, there have been errors made within the general labor movement over the last 100 years, but to compare them equally to the sins of the Republican party steps over a line I simply cannot ignore.
My “fear” of the right is NOT irrational and, furthermore, to think that we have nothing to “fear” from right wing ideology is naive. Right wing ideology permeates the power structure in this country, from Wall Street to the Pentagon, from the greed of bankers to the Gen McChrystal’s call for 40,000 more troops in Afghanistan. The thinking, the ideas, comes from an unfettered free market viewpoint that is enshrined in the neo con view of the world. It is most definitely something to be feared.
Without a solid base of ideas as to why you are doing what you plan with the Dayton Process it becomes not much more than a government class at Sinclair or Wright State. Ideology is the GLUE that binds individuals into a party organization. Common purpose drives people to work together, without it are just going through the motions.
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@Gary- I think you are hung up on the idea that there are only two sides- a left one and a right one.
The reality is it’s all a continuum and- it may even have other dimensions to it. The Green party, the Libertarian party- the people’s party. Why can’t we just have leaders without labels?
AS to unions- we have the constant battle with our unions- where we have trash men making $65K a year- while people with advanced educations and irreplaceable skill sets making less. We have the power of the union machine backing people who are incompetent to lead- to lead us. We have teachers who can’t be fired. We have unions who expect automatic pay raises every year ad infinitum.
The ideology that should rule in Dayton is a pragmatists one- what gives the citizens the best possible government for the least amount of taxes- pretty simple.
Both parties are corrupt and morally bankrupt. How else can you explain the Montgomery County Democratic Party not challenging Mike Turner- or backing issue 3. Case closed.
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I’m much more concerned about this than the 65k “trash men” make ;
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/06/joe-biden/biden-points-out-disparities-between-ceo-and-avera/
Which is not ideology, but rather the process by which one tests political ideas in the real world, finds those that work and discards those that don’t. You must have stated principles that can be implemented in a course of action that has a goal of making those principles real and meaningful.
What principles will be applied to ensure that the citizens get “the best possible government for the least amount of taxes- pretty simple.”?
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@Gary- and do you see either the dems or the Repubs doing anything about CEO salary? No.
The City isn’t paying it’s CEO – the city manager that kind of ratio- but, we are letting other quasi government slush fund orgs pay well in excess of their value- like the DDP, DDC and Citywide.
The problem with city hall is a lack of metrics- and pay for performance.
I’ve talked extensively about the metrics I’d install…. and nothing has happened.
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Gary – As I’ve read your posts on here over the last few weeks I’ve figured out that you own a small retail business. I’m assuming that you have employees. If so, do you pay them ALL THE SAME? Are your employees part of a union? Having experience in business ownership myself, I realize that it’s not always possible for the business owner to make money, but when you do make money do you split the profits equally with all of your employees so that you don’t make more than them? Or do you have some sort of multiplier where you’re allowing yourself to only earn X-times more than your lowest paid employees? I’m looking forward to your answers. Thank you for your time.
PS – DAVID – I tried to enter my real email address in your “leave a comment” area and your system won’t take it.
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@bubba: No other employees at present. Unfortunately, the business I’m in, retail music, has consolidated and changed technologically to the point where independent music stores have nearly been all wiped out. When I did have others working here it was pay, in part, for performance based on a sales commission. I’ve never made so much that the difference between what I took from the business compared to employees was an issue.
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@bubba- was your e-mail a .biz or .cc or something else- please let me know so we can investigate it.
There may be a lookup table we need to append.
Thank you.
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Please clarify which are the special interests of Unions/Labor that are corrupt as those of the Republican Party.
This is such an easy question I don’t even know where to start. How about Peter Galbraith? From the link:
Because you know Gary, only Republicans have blood on their hands in Iraq. It’s a one party system and you’re part of the problem.
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@D Greene
Hunh? What does the son of John K Galbraith have to do with alleged Union /Labor corruption??
I am NOT shocked that some so called democrats have been on the wrong side of political positions, witness the Blue Dog coalition in Congress as an example. Definitely in the conservative wing of the Democratic party. Why should we be shocked that some manipulative diplomat [not a union guy] made a self aggrandizing move in Iraq?
Yes, there are numerous democrats who have “blood on their hands” for the Iraq war, no self respecting liberal/leftie would or could deny that. However it is the LIES told by the Republicans in power, including Bush and Cheney, that are the most responsible for the War. And, I am NOT part of that problem, having opposed this War from the very beginning.
Post again when you have a credible comment that actually deals with my question about comparing which special interests of the Unions are as corrupt as those of the Republicans.
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It’s not my problem if you’re too blind to see what’s right in front of you.
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D. Greene has it figured out. Gary’s of the mind too manyRepublicans got into after 9/11: “Follow the party for it is all knowing and all powerful!”
As for the CEO thing, there should definitely be a hard look at how the tax-payers’ money is being spent. As for city government, I think the city manager form has worked out fairly well but the mayor definitely needs to be strengthened (if not politically as least when it comes to pay/prestige). I think it was great to get someone new like Gary Leitzell elected but I fear fewer and fewer people will run when the mayor only makes $45k. Sorry but being mayor should be a full time job and treated as such. No one with a lot of great executive experience or clout in the community will run and win for a job that pays less than being a garbage man. Praise to Gary for putting principle first though!
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@D. Greene
@D Greene
I am not blind, and your nonsensical reply does not answer the question posed.
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“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” -George Orwell
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Obtuse Obfuscation is the tool of the Oblivious.
I’m still waiting…
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@Gary- not all unions are corrupt- but, there is a lot of nepotism and favoritism going on locally- especially with some of the unions that have dealings with the City.
If you’d been reading all my posts- you’d know about some of them. What qualifications does Tom Ritchie Sr. have to be on the Board of Elections?
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David, interesting article. Several points:
My assumption was that in 2006 Mark Owens and Dennis Lieberman had an understanding that Lieberman would be the front man at the re-organization meeting so that Owens could slip into the chairmanship at a later time. I assumed it was all a set-up, a good-ol-boys strategy, that possibly included an understanding that Debbie Lieberman would have no competition for the County Commissioner’s position. It was my impression that Dennis was happy to rid himself of the position, but that impression is not really based on any inside knowledge. I’m surprised to learn that you see Owen’s elevation to party chair as a “putsch.”
The party’s actions concerning the 40th Ohio House District deserves a more complete explanation than your short statement that “Victor Harris got snubbed.” After Fred Strahorn was term limited, the 40th OHD seat was open. It is truly astounding what the Central Committee decided to endorse Roland Winburn — prior to the deadline for primary nomination — with the clear intention of discouraging any competition for the 40th OHD seat. Vic Harris challenged the party and decided to run in the primary, regardless. The party organized an all-out effort for Winburn that included fund raising and, more importantly, put people at the polling places on election day with cards showing that the Montgomery Democratic Party urged Democrats to vote for Winburn in the Democratic Primary. The effort to influence early voters who came to the Board of Elections was particularly devastating where the votes where overwhelmingly in favor of Winburn.
Mark Owens defended this action by saying he felt that the endorsement policy of the Montgomery County Democratic Party would be approved by most Democrats in the county. This endorsement policy, I feel, should be the focus when selecting a new party chairperson. It should be the motivation for Democrats in the county who disagree with this anti-democratic policy to get involved in the county party. I believe most Democrats in the county are in favor of their local party acting in a small-d democratic way and, if given a chance, would absolutely reject Owens’ anti-democratic point of view. It is this endorsement issue, I feel, that should be the rallying cry to get more Montgomery County Democrats interesting in getting involved and seeking election to the Central Committee.
The DDN in several editorials have railed at both the Montgomery County Democratic Party and the Montgomery County Republican Party for their anti-democratic actions, so I’m hoping that you are wrong when you predict that the DDN will not cover this topic. Now is the time for the DDN to print articles informing Montgomery County Democrats about the opportunity to get involved in the county party by seeking election to the Central Committee, and I tend to believe that the DDN will, in fact, do so. But, we will see.
You write, “There will be a redistricting that will cut the number of precinct captains from the unmanageable 548 to a more manageable 188, cutting out 360 of the required seats.” This is the first I’ve heard about this possibility. I’d like to know who is making such a proposal and how such a proposal could be approved. Wouldn’t such a change require legislative action to change the Ohio Revised Code? It seems unlikely that such a change would happen, but regardless it could not happen before the 2010 Democratic Primary.
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@David
Searched for qualifications for appointment to board of elections qualification without result. Believe that members are nominated by and may even approved by the Dems and Repubs. I’d be willing to bet $$ has something to do with it.
I’,m in agreement with Mike that the endorsement process is a particular point that needs be addressed in any discussion of “reform” in MCDP. Which leads directly into the sticky wicket of executive committee vs central committee dcsion making. I’ve never been able to sort out how one is appointed to the executive committee. Or for that matter where it is even authorized in the MCDPO Constitution. I Tried going to http://www.montgomerydems.org
but instead received this message
You are not authorized to view this page.
Must be more of a secret organization than i realized.
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@Mike Bock- I had the numbers reversed- sorry- they are cutting out 188 precincts- down to 360. I’ll have a post explaining this later. It’s happening at the next BOE board meeting.
@Gary S. I got the same message- I guess the Montgomery County Democratic Party is now a totally private club. Even though they’ve taken their main site private- the smear site is still up.
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Mark Owens defended this action by saying he felt that the endorsement policy of the Montgomery County Democratic Party would be approved by most Democrats in the county.
Stop 10 people on the street and ask each if he or she knows what the endorsement policy of the MCDP is and I bet at least 9 could not tell you. Stop people on the street and ask that question only of people who identify as Democrats and I still bet 9 out of 10 Democrats couldn’t tell you.
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David Lauri — Probably the percent of Montgomery County Democrats who are not aware of their county party’s endorsement policy would even exceed the 90% you suggest. The point is, in my opinion, if Montgomery County Democrats knew of this policy, the vast majority would disapprove and would want to elect a county party chairperson who would reject the current policy. Now is the time to put the pressure on, to make this a central issue as part of the scheduled four year county reorganization election, so the party will be forced to deal with this and other important issues as part of the reorganization meeting.
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Well Gary, I’m going to type this next part real slow so you can understand: you tend to cherry-pick arguments because you seem more concerned with winning debates on the internet than actually addressing people’s points. You throw out straw man attacks at right winger nutbags in a post generally criticizing the way the DEMS do business. Then you claim that the only special interests the Dems are beholden to include labor unions. Then you demand evidence that unions do ‘bad’ things. Fine. Do you know how to use google? Have you even tried? Just google union intimidation, check out some of the videos that show up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMzjCdXRLeg
Your Pollyannish view of unions is utterly laughable, but it’s scary because you wield some small amount of influence and consider yourself “informed.”
But you tried to narrow the scope of the discussion and derail the central point by claiming unions are the only special interests affecting the democratic parties. For crying out loud, the Galbraith story I linked to is a prime example of special interests at work on the so-called left. Major corporations donate heavily to candidates in major elections on both sides of the aisles. Both parties have been selling out and lying to their respective ideological bases for years. It’s a one party system, and you’re part of the problem.
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It’s sort of a relief to see Gary Staigers posts as he is about the only left-winger online here in Dayton. It’s a missing voice from local political discourse, which is usually dominated by various right-wing tendancies.
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@D Greene.
I reiterate, your use of the egregious example of Peter Galbraith as an example of Union corruption/special interests is what is laughable. How does Galbreath become the all defining symbol of corruption of Unions [which, after all, was the original question] when he himself has nothing to do with Unions and is not even close to being a leftist??? It is NOT an answer to the specific question. Galbreath is your straw dog [on fire] and not mine….
Further, I never claimed “that the only special interests the Dems are beholden to include labor unions.” {My sentence structure is not that convoluted…]. Yes, when MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people are involved in an endeavor some crooks and bad guys will take advantage of the system. I made that point myself earlier. However, this is also true: Trade unions are crucial in defending workers’ jobs, pay and conditions, acting to improve working conditions. Unionized workplaces are often safer places to be and their employees are often better paid. Workers in unionized workplaces are also more likely to benefit from training and development programmes.
One point we do agree on is that, at the top, both parties do in fact deeply resemble each other. That is reflected on the local level, especially as it relates to campaign financing. On the other hand the stated political goals of both major parties are very different and often diametrically opposed, so they are not in reality one and the same.
I interested in what can be done to make MCDP into a more small d democratic organization. I could give a rat’s ass about fixing the Party of NO or at this point in forming another party. And yes, I want to do that from a perspective that embraces the thinking of people like Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich and not Harry Reid or Ben Nelson. I am most definitely speaking from a Liberal, Left political position and proud of it .What I am NOT interested in a is a “process” that, through its woeful lack of a debated and stated set of progressive principles, could end up being either just another Candidates School- Mechanics & Procedures, or, worse yet, enliven a group of people who want to steer the MCDP to the right and toward the politics of people like the Mayor-elect, Gary Leitzel, whom a lot of the posters on this blog seemed deeply enamored of.
Which side of that divide are you on?
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Some labor unions have their places, but often they cripple the business (see auto industry.) Yes, the management (non-union) hurt the auto industry as well, but it always seemed they worked against each other. There is no business model that suggest continued argumentative relations is a way for a business or an industry to succeed. Union members make too much (so does management) and often have unrealistic retirement plans and health care benefits. Unions hurt job creation.
Gary S, you may not like the right, but why in the hell do you think it is ok to forcefully take from one person and give to another? Answer that one and maybe I become a liberal……
Liberals love to tax, tax, tax. You just don’t get why that does not work, or why it simply is immoral among other things….
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@GENE
BULLSHIT
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So Gary must think it is ok to take from one person and give to another…..
Please hand over your cash to me then Gary.
Oh, wait, you only want to take from other people…….
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Gary S – Why is it that you ask some inane questions (ie – wanting to know why Gary Lietzel admired RR and MT) over and over and over again but then refuse to answer anything that people ask of you (ie – Gene’s question of whether it’s OK or not to take from one person and give to another)? You hang on to your questions like a rabid dog but are apparently unable to come up with simple answers to expound on your viewpoints of how things should be.
Although I will admit that it’s pretty entertaining to watch you get your panties in a wad over Gene! Keep it up, Gene!!
David – I tried to use my hotmail account when signing in and it wouldn’t let me.
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Because Gary S is a hypocrite. He knows it. He lives it. He is a liberal.
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@Bubba- this is very odd- you don’t have to “sign in”- should just be able to fill in the form and send- all it asks for is a name and an e-mail address. I don’t have your IP blocked- can you describe what it says when “it wouldn’t let you”
Thanks
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I repeated my question of why Gary Leitzel admires Thatcher and Reagans politics because it is directly related to who he is and how his political viewpoint will be reflected in how he will act as Mayor. Non partisanship is a fantasy concocted by John Patterson to ensure business control of the city’s politics, nothing less and a whole lot more…
Is that clear enough?
Gene’s posts are so inane , infantile , full of drivel and double talk as to not deserve anything but my standardized response of bullshit.
And yes, I do believe there are circumstances when it is absolutely ok to “take from one and give to another”. That process is known as taxation and only a bobble-head would argue that all taxes are wrong…then again, reading some of the posts on this blog really makes me wonder if there isn’t a bobble head factory somewhere nearby.
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Eh, the election’s over. Good luck getting the Mayor Elect to explain why he said what he said about Reagan and Thatcher or about traditional marriage for that matter. Not worth stressing over until he’s up for re-election, and by then he’ll have a record on which he’ll be running.
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Non partisanship is a fantasy concocted by John Patterson to ensure business control of the city’s politics, nothing less and a whole lot more…
In Dayton, yes. The history of this is pretty interesting but mostly unwritten. The early elections under the charter were nominally non-partisan, but really were the business + professional community (Patterson and his reformist allies) against the Socialists. After the Socialists were defeated apparently the city went under nominally nonpartisan “one party rule” under this business/professional coalition. It’s unclear how partisanship seeped back into the picture, with the Democrats and Republicans running identifiable slates. Prehaps the Depression and the rise of the Democratic New Deal coalition under FDR, and the growth of the CIO locally, had something to do with it.
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@David L
I did not expect to get a straight answer from Mr Leitzel, nor do I expect to get one now. What he does after taking office in January will tell the tale. Mr Leitzel and David have till then to figure out how they are going to implement the changes they talk about.
If they are good ideas, I will applaud them, if they are not I’m sure I won’t be alone in focusing on the why nots.
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Sorry David, I didn’t phrase that very well. With my first post I entered my name and email address which is a hotmail account. Every time I clicked Submit, I received a message telling me to enter a valid email address. Finally I just entered the address that you see associated with my “account”.
Here’s an example of why the unions you love so much are great!!
Gary S – maybe we can get you a job as foreman at the bobble-head factory. I’m sure it’s a union shop!!
http://www.mcall.com/news/all-a8_5scout.7084728nov15,0,6238384.story
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Bubba, I heard about that union story today.
I have never argued taxes are wrong. But we have some many nickel and dime taxes that add up to real money and are making it sort of worthless to work. Why should I work so hard for the benefit of another, especially when it goes to social programs that are worthless. No, I am not talking just about welfare in its many forms, rather every GD park tax, school tax, property tax, sales tax, income tax and then the miss use of these taxes because government is corrupt or just flat out stupid.
Not every little last thing was meant to be taken care of by the government. We don’t need all these services and programs and bureaucracy. We need to stream line our government. Liberals just take take take. It gets old working for other people, and I am my own boss. The other people are those getting my money for doing nothing.
You can argue all you want. Taxes are high in my opinion. And Unions in a lot of cases hurt the workers and the industry, please go to the UAW. Why should they make the rules, they don’t make cars?
As to Gary S, he is a former communist who owns a business. He is a hypocrite. And he is full of bullshit all of the time. He wants his business to succeed yet wants other businesses to pay out the nose. He has no employees. Why TF won’t he put money where his mouth is….. He is more than capable of hiring one person for 30 hours a week but he refuses to… typical hypocrite liberal BULLSHIT !
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@Gene:
BULLSHIT
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Gene – well said until you got to the part where you accuse Gary S of being a former communist. Do you know this for sure or are you just yanking his chain?
Gary S – from one of your comments on 11/13 – “When I did have others working here it was pay, in part, for performance based on a sales commission”. Where’s the fairness in this? Your support of collective bargaining would indicate that all of your employees should have been paid the same! What’s up with that? Since you expected them to be paid based on performance, I’ll bet you were so evil that you didn’t even provide their health insurance for them, did you? Are you sure you’re not a Republican in disguise? I think you’ve been fooling us all!
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Someone actually told me that like 5 years ago, when speaking about communists. I have no idea if it is really true, he can say yes or no. But, for real, I did hear this from someone (who most likely was exaggerating.)
Actually, I think being a communist is better than being a hypocrite liberal. At least your agenda is set in stone and not to be determined by feelings and opinions on what you think is fair or unfair.
That is the problem with Gary S. He owns a business, yet wants Best Buy, his competitor, to unionize and over pay employees and pay steep taxes. If he is so GD noble with his cash he can send it to me or better yet write a check to the government to help pay down the over whelming debt created by wasteful government, both done by republicans and demorats.
He can only say bullshit bc he knows that he is a hypocrite. Most people are. Me included. But the level of his hypocrisy is shocking.
He takes money from people who get government money, or even if the have earned it should be spending it on health care or their illegitimate kids or food for their kids or clothes for their kids, but not music.
And the funny thing is Gary S. and I would agree on a lot of social issues, knowing the typical liberal platform. He is like Bill Maher….. jokes that doctors make millions off of sick people, but it is ok he makes millions for telling jokes…… or like Obama saying that we need a healthier US population and drugs and care are the answer…….. ah, no, those things help the problems. If we want a healthier US population, real easy folks, exercise more, drink less alcohol, smoke less, eat less fast food, eat fruits and vegetables. If everyone did that we would have a lot less “sick” people……..
Liberals are just plain backwards on most things. But I do agree with them on a lot of social issues… that counts for something…..
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I wonder how many social issues you’d agree with the “Liberals” on, Gene, if you weren’t gay. You certainly don’t agree with “Liberals” on issues such as communal responsibility for the poor and disadvantaged in our midst.
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@Bubba [probably not your real name]:
With your most recent post you have earned induction onto my troll list, where you join that poor confused red-baiting misogynist Gene. Post again when you actually have something intelligent to add to the conversation.
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I said “a lot”, not all, and there are a lot of social issue. DL, you are the typical Super Lib too….. If you find some minor difference in opinion then you have the “YOU ARE AGAISNT LIBERALS!!!!” mentality.
We have TWO parties (for the most part)…. 9000k issues, people are going to vary on issues from time to time….
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Troll lists are created by guys who use the government for money. Hand out central.
Business owners in this part of the world grab with right hand and choke customers with left hand. They are owed it bc there are RICH people.
Liberals need not apply…… the government will soon send you a check from the rich.
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@GENE
BULLSHIT
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OK, so name one or two of the “a lot of social issues” which you agree with the “Liberals” on, Gene.
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None of your business.
Why do you care?
I am a libertarian, you do the math.
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@Gene
MORE BULLSHIT
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Hey everybody, it’s me, D. Greene! I’m the smartest guy on the internet! I cannot be trolled! I never lose arguments on the internet, even with trolls, because <em>I</em> end up trolling <em>them</em>! Instead of arguing trivialities like facts, statistics, and reality on the ground, I am more interested in cutting straight to the heart of the matter, impugning the personalities of other internet characters, thus completely invalidating any and all arguments <em>before they are even posted</em>. Some say I am prescient, others claim I am clairvoyant. I’m just smarter than all of you. I’m D. Greene, and I vote for the status quo.
[editors note- don't impersonate anyone- don't use multiple aliases- and stop attacking each other- I do moderate- this isn't the DDN pigpen]
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What is BS Gary S? That I have some liberal views on social issues….. I do.
I don’t want to type every little last thing on this subject. And that was not me above, but really funny.
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I claim responsibility for the above formatting snafus, but I blame rich people for everything else!
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@GENE
Ok, but when David L asked what they were you told him none of your business…
What I object to is your not speaking to the issues, but rather resorting to low brow red-baiting and name calling. So what if I’m a liberal, or even a socialist? This is, after all, a pluralistic society where even libertarian views are heard… Speak to the issues. Get over the name calling & participate in an intelligent discussion of ISSUES.
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Get over the name calling & participate in an intelligent discussion of ISSUES.
The word of the Lord: “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Blessed be the word of the Lord. Amen.
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Right on Gary S. Please note smiley face after the “none of your business”….. it was in fun, hence the
Calling someone a liberal is not bad. And most of the time I am just pointing out what is a liberal viewpoint, therefore (in my opinion) that those viewpoints are often made with the heart and not always thought through.
The fact is most of us want a better world, we have different views. I just believe throwing money at “problems” is not always the answer. Life is not perfect, I get that. But I do have a problem with liberals always wanting tax money for their agenda. People work hard for their money and I don’t believe the government is entitled to it. Yes, we need to pay taxes. Everyone does. But why do we try to beat up on rich people all the time and take their money. Most rich work hard for their money. 90% of millionaires are self made, meaning that were not exactly rich before becoming rich.
A lot of social ills are covered by tax payers. I feel bad for a lot of people. But a lot of people take advantage of the system, produce unwanted kids, burden tax payers, etc. I don’t like that at all.
I hate war. I hate this war. We should get out of these wars. Among other reasons, it cost too much and it certainly is not worth risking American life (or any life for that matter.)
I want less taxes across the board, eliminate non-essential government services, including a lot of military. Tax me less, and with my tax money (with the elimination of so many programs and service) I want to see a strong but smaller military, a health care system that includes everyone yet still charges for care (ie to see a Doctor you still would need to pay some out of pocket, what that is is debatable, so we don’t over load the system with the common cold, sprained toe, splinter, you get the idea.)
I honestly think that politicians (both sides) are corrupt. They say they care but they only want to secure their jobs and their political allies. How to fix that, well, not sure, but that is how I feel. They are not noble. They do it as a job, and therefore have only self interest. Self interest is fine, just not when it involves spending my tax dollars (government overall.)
Let the market work. Get out of peoples way and let them conduct business. Tax dollars are meant for IMPORTANT THINGS WE NEED. In general there is too much waste.
Getting into specifics on every little last thing is a waste of time. Let people do what they want so long as it is under the law. And so many laws need to be 86ed. I can argue against things like drugs (for my personal life) but I don’t care if other people do drugs. If they commit a crime when on drugs, lock ‘em up. No blaming the drug if you know what I mean.
You want a gun, get a permit. Liberals hate that but criminals generally love to carry a gun, so don’t take that right away from someone who is law abiding.
Personally I am against abortion, but if someone feels they need to have one so be it. Their life, their choice. I just wish a man would have a little say, but again that is debatable.
Speaking of men, my biggest problem with men is that they don’t care for their kids – a lot of them – both black and white and so on…… Taking care of them means being in their life, financially and emotionally. It kills me we accept people having these kids then just laughing off a human life. I don’t think society should take care of them, rather the PARENTS. but we have allowed it and we set the bar too low. It is not a marriage issue either. It is a “doing the right thing” issue. Sure, not everyone will step up to the plate. But 40 years ago we did not have this problem on the same scale, and this country is only slightly bigger. We need to do better there.
Immigrants, welcome. Put them through citizenship, if they want, or 2 year visas. Charge them accordingly. The more the merrier. We have a lot of room. BTW, every human being on the planet (6-7 billion) could stand in Jax FL all at the same time. We have plenty of space. As for food, 3 plain states can produce enough for the entire world. It is a distribution problem.
Overall we could use less people, but I would not legislate that. Let people do what they do so long as they can take care of their little ones in every fashion needed.
I do have other liberal viewpoints, ask if you want…. I have ever changing opinion on a lot of things, bc someone points out things I did not know, persuades me, etc. I am not locked in to one side. I review each issue and they change from time to time bc I change.
I could go on…. but I am tired. Maybe in 2 hours.
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Fun answer, Gene.
I tend to agree that too many people are having kids. What always gets me about people who complain about the danger to “the family” and “children” from “the gayz” and every child not having a father AND a mother is that the majority of child-related problems (abuse, neglect, etc.) are caused by the breeders. And I really get irked by people who’ve lost parental rights once then going on to pop out more kids for the system to have to take care of, although I do think it’s best for society to try to care for such kids — does “I don’t think society should take care of them” mean, Gene, that were you Emperor there’d be no Department of Family Services?
I do not agree, however, that life was better in the good old days, 40 years ago or whenever one’s particular notion of when the “Golden Era” was. In the “Good Old Days” girls learned they weren’t equal to boys and queers learned they better keep quiet (and hide in heterosexual marriages, as if that’s any way to protect the family).
An example of something that wasn’t better in the Good Old Days is access to safe and legal abortions. Personally, were I ever in the situation of deciding whether or not to have an abortion, I probably wouldn’t choose to have one, but my sperm aren’t getting near any eggs, so it’s not a dilemma I’ll ever face. I got in mild trouble on a Facebook thread for asking a feminist whether she thought it would have been better for the country as a whole if we had no health care reform whatsoever unless health care reform included coverage for abortion (pointing out that abortions cost on average only about $375). She declined to answer, instead commenting how ironic it was that so-called progressive men couldn’t see the importance of abortion coverage. I took her answer to mean that she did in fact think it’d be best for people to go on dying for lack of health care coverage rather than be at all politically pragmatic. By the way, men do have a say in abortions — if you’re against abortions, don’t get women pregnant.
Your views, Gene, on immigration, certainly aren’t conservative, but I think you’re right. Dayton and other formerly industrial areas wouldn’t be facing so many problems of de-population if it were easier for immigrants to settle down here legally. Of course the various Inspector Gotchas would have to be reined in so that new residents could succeed in starting small businesses and rehabbing houses.
The issue of drugs is a good one to discuss. Think of the money we’d save if we stopped “The War on Drugs,” a war we’ll never win. Stop wasting money on detecting drug growers, drug dealers, drug users; stop wasting money on court cases and incarceration. Reduce gang wars and crime by taking gangs out of the business of drug production and distribution. Earn some money by taxing the recreational drug industry. The people’s answer on the issue of gambling (it destroys families, let’s try to stop it, etc. vs. we can’t stop it so let’s earn some bucks off it) could well apply to drugs.
As for guns, do I feel safer in the United States where guns are everywhere or in Canada where they’re not? Canada. I think Canadians and Europeans are much saner when it comes to this issue, but this is an issue “Liberals” will never win. Too many guns are out there for us to win on it, and until someone invents a time machine so that we can go back and get the Founders’ answer on tape about whether they wanted citizen militia to have access to arms or every person walking down the street packing, Old West style, I don’t think the “Liberal” view will prevail in the courts.
90% of millionaires are self made? Got a source for that? Seems like there’s an awful lot of inherited wealth in this country, and that the rich keep getting richer, the poor poorer and the middle class smaller. (Do I have a source for that claim? Why yes, yes, I do: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/personal_finance/2009/09/29/2009-09-29_recession_hit_middleincome_and_poor_families_hardest_widening_the_economic_gap_b.html )
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@David L & Gene.
Interesting and well said///Gene, keep it up and I will gladly remove you from my troll list!!
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To clarify, I don’t think society “should have to” take care of them, and we do often, bc of absentee fathers, among other reason. Certainly there will be kids born to unfit parents, and yes we should take care of them. But fixing the first problem drastically would reduce the second problem. I don’t think it was better 40 years ago, just that (as a %) more fathers were involved and supported their kids. Yes, those were different days, but now guys simply skip town or go across town and get another woman pregnant.
No, nothing is perfect, but that needs to get better. The lack of parental support (financially, emotionally, etc) makes society worse. It simply does. We have more crime, our schools are worse off (esp in poor areas) and other things here and there that are directly connected to there being no father around. Two PARENTS are better than one. In general it is the father who leaves or is not wanted around, certainly there are cases where woman do this.
The rich do get richer. Some poor get poorer. But as to the middle class, often it is defined on 1/5 s. That being Top 20% rich, next 20% middle class, next 20% middle class, next 20% lower middle class, next 20% poor. The middle class exist. But what has happened, among other things, is that the jobs they once had are way different from the jobs they have today. And there are a lot of two income households which puts a spin on things. But with out a doubt the fact remains, 20 or40 or 60 or 80 years ago we did not have as much STUFF, which is a huge problem in ALL households, including my household. What I mean by that is often we get so absorbed with STUFF and CASH that we miss the simple answer of having more money = having less stuff. STUFF does create jobs, but to a single household the more stuff you have the less money you have. Stuff is not worth that much. If it makes you happy, great, so long as you can afford it. But most people can not.
But I say let people do what they want to do… if you want to buy crap, go ahead. If you are poor I can point out where you went wrong, often. So I suggest that we need to tell people to A) buy less stuff, therefore you will have more money in the future for times like today B) stop worrying about the Jones, C) Stream line your life asap. That is the best thing that has happened to me the last few years, I just stopped buying stuff. I have more money bc of that and I am happier and wealthier (maybe not so much healthier
.
As for inherited money, don’t worry about it. It is not yours, it is someone else’s, it has been tax, they give it to whom ever they want. The stat I heard regarding millionaire was on a radio show, so I have not other reference.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8760287/FREE-EXCERPT-The-21-Success-Secrets-of-SelfMade-Millionaires-How-to-Achieve-Financial-Independence-Faster-and-Easier-Than-You-Ever-Thought-Possible
page *8.
yes, a self help thing, ref 15 years of research. Take it for what it is, but most millionaires are self made, a huge percent, this guy claims 90 ish…..
But you don’t have to be rich to have a good life. Have a nice day.
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