Towed in Dayton: we kick our poor people while they are down
On April 15th the Dayton Daily news reported that the city of Dayton began a tow on sight program, targeting cars with unpaid parking tickets and camera violations.
Immediately after I started hearing from people- “you have to do something”- and “write about this”- which I would have loved to do, but, you have to remember, I have a job, and it’s not to do the one that our elected officials are supposed to do (and yes, I auditioned for that paying job more than a few times).
At Wednesday night’s commission meeting, in the final comments, about 5 weeks after this draconian illegal seizure of vehicles began, Commissioner Joey Williams asked in closing comments if there was something “that could be done” like a payment plan, since the people this is affecting can’t all just write a check for the tickets, the tow and the storage fees. He asked the city manager to look into doing something similar to what the water department does to restore service, noting that if you take people’s cars, you often stop them from working. No other commissioners chimed in.
Here is what the DDN reported on the 15th of April:
Police began towing vehicles with a combination of two or more unpaid camera-caught violations or parking tickets on April 2. In announcing the decision, the department said that those who haven’t paid within 30 days of the second violation would be subject to towing….
Dayton police said a vehicle on the tow list that is “operating or parked on a public street” can be towed, not just vehicles involved in a traffic violation. All police cruisers have copies of the tow list, and five cruisers contain technology that reads license plates. Five more license-plate readers are “ready to be installed” in cruisers, police said.
Costs include $105 per tow and $20 per day for storage if a vehicle isn’t picked up in four hours….
“My main concern is why are most of the red camera lights in the West Dayton area?” said Smith’s husband, John Smith. “I think that’s very important and significant.”
Of the 11 intersections with cameras in Dayton, six are in the western part of the city, one is to the north, one is close to the middle and three are in the eastern section…
New city contracts for towing began April 1 for Sandy’s Auto and Truck Service and Summit Towing Inc. Each is paying the city about $150,000 annually during the next five years.
Sandy’s tows and stores vehicles in the city’s East Zone, from east of the Stillwater River until it flows into the Great Miami River and east of the Great Miami to the eastern city limits. Summit Towing Inc. tows and stores vehicles from the West Zone. Neither company returned calls Friday seeking comment.
“With the way that the economy is today, they need to work with people,” said Tiffani Richardson, who paid fines at Dayton Municipal Court last week. “At least let them make payments if they don’t have all the money at once.
“That’s putting us a step back if you are going to tow my car. How am I going to get to work or anywhere else to be able to pay the ticket?”
Note, you can get multiple tickets for drunk driving and they don’t seize your car and hold it hostage.
In a city that claims to have the welcome mat out, seizing cars for minor speeding, red light or parking tickets is a bit draconian, don’t you think? Especially since the cameras have no way of proving who the driver is, or if the ticket was delivered to the vehicle owner. Of course, if you are a city commissioner like Matt Joseph, you can go to events that aren’t official city business, stick a placard in your window, and park for free. (pictures taken May 18, 2010, on E 2nd Street by me) Note- Matt also gets free airport parking as well- and a city car.
It’s easy to make laws if you don’t have to live by them.
Anyone paying attention can see that Dayton’s city and school officials are long on shortsightedness and a sense of power and short on conscience, compassion and human decency. If they acted from a place of interconnectedness with the citizens of this city, vehicles would not be towed for traffic offenses, Julienne would be celebrated and put to good use rather than being wantonly demolished, and those who hold any position of power within the city would employ empathy rather than indifference to the broader community their actions affect. The poor are only targeted because they cannot fight back….and only bullies go for those who are weaker than they are. Dayton is dying all right, but not because of the loss of jobs; it is dying because those in power are killing it with their heartlessness and inability to put themselves in the other guy’s place before they act.
Marianne Stanley said, “Dayton is dying all right, but not because of the loss of jobs…”
i agree: the loss of jobs is a symptom not a cause. The cause of death has little to do with failure to “mould a new reality closer to the heart”, and a lot to do with big changes in the economy that no elected official has control over. It is exacerbated by electorate-shaping by folks motivated by re-election rather than the goal of a thriving city. Dayton has lots of the characteristic “revenue without residents” economic development plans discussed in that first link. If you were really interested in attracting successful professionals to live in your city, would you have a 2.25% city income tax?
And a large percentage of the revenue collected from these cameras goes to an independent contractor w/quasi-legal authority. If the ticket doesn’t meet the standards of an Ohio Uniform Traffic Ticket, which it didn’t last one I saw, it can be argued. The speeding itself would not be valid grounds for argument, but all traffic tickets must meet very specific criteria or design standards. I don’t think the City can seize property like that either, but it could be in an ordinance somewhere.
See the traffic ticket on this .pdf from the Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/LegalResources/Rules/traffic/Traffic.pdf
Also not certain exceptions for some Municipal Courts.
Operating a motor vehicle is not a right, it is a responsibility. When you are issued a driver’s license, you agree to abide by the traffic laws and the rules of the road. This means ALL OF THEM – including parking restrictions and speed limits. It doesn’t work if you get to choose which laws you want to obey and which laws you don’t. You’re gonna kill someone. As a driver approaching a green light, I need to trust that all drivers approaching red lights are gonna stop and not t-bone me, possibly injuring or killing me or my passengers. I was recently interviewed by a DNN reporter doing a story on this subject. He confirmed that Dayton’s red light cameras are installed at various intersections BASED ON ACCIDENT FREQUENCY. He also confirmed that red light cameras have been statistically proven to REDUCE accidents at these intersections. This is not rocket science, folks. The cameras are clearly visible, warning signage is plainly posted, and let’s face it, most people will not run a red light when they know Big Brother is watching. I scoff at the notion that location is based on race or income. What are you saying? If you’re black or poor, you cannot read a simple sign? Anyone with three unpaid tickets, let alone 15 or more, is a habitual offender, laughing at the law. If I have to feed the meter, so do they! The laws are meant for all of us. Maybe getting a car towed is what it takes to get some people’s attention? I think the only mistake the City of Dayton made was letting their list of unpaid parking tickets get so completely out of hand. Something like 150 pages? Come on. That in itself is laughable. I got a red light camera ticket a few years ago. Coasted through a right turn on red at Stanley and 202. Didn’t even realize I had done it, frankly, but when the ticket came in the mail and I looked the video up on line, there was no denying that it was MY… Read more »
>>> Note, you can get multiple tickets for drunk driving and they don’t seize your car and hold it hostage. <<< – D.E.
You might want to double check that on, David. Not being an attorney, nor ever having been arrested for drunk driving, I am certainly not an expert on this subject, but I don’t think you get a “ticket” for drunk driving. You get arrested and hauled to jail. If you don’t have a sober passenger, your car will get towed, most likely to some sort of police impound lot. Your penalties for a drunk driving conviction are just a bit more severe than a speeding ticket or running a red light. Multiple convictions will cost your driving privileges for various lengths of time. And several convictions will get you some really cool new license plates that will make you the envy of all of your friends! (Yeah, I know there are stories in the news all the time about people with dozens of DUI/OVI/DWI arrests that are still driving, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.)
@David….you have missed the boat on this one. First, yes you can have your car seized by the court for multiple OVI offenses. There is also a checkbox on an ALS suspension form that calls for seizure. Second, this isn’t about pillaging the poor. This is about responsibility or the lack thereof. I will first state that I do not agree with traffic cameras. Officers have to check the calibration of their radar units prior to and following a shift per standard training protocol. There are no checks and balances with the system that takes photographs and issues civil citations for violations of law. The do reduce traffic crashes at intersections, but people then speed up when out of view. They also cause an increase in ACDA crashes at said intersections because people are afraid to proceed through a legal yellow. They slam on their brakes to stop and get ass ended. I also am not for the decriminalization of certain laws in the form of civil penalties for traffic law violations. Basically, it isn’t a crime to speed or run a light unless an officer witnesses it. BS. You wonder why the traffic cameras are in poor areas of the city? Drive on the westside anytime recently? Down Gettysburg? SR49? I have and there is no regard for the law there. Hence the cameras. If they really wanted to make money, double the cost of the ticket and put the cameras in rich areas. But that wouldn’t work, because those individuals drive fairly responsible. With that said, to not enforce a law or rule with the cameras, you are encouraging violation of law. If they never prosecute theft, do you think your residential property crime will ever stand a chance of lowering in your neighborhood? Nope. The reason Dayton is the way it is, is because of a lack of personal responsibility and a lack of consequences for actions. I suggest strict enforcement of laws and policy to encourage law abiding living. Why does Dayton have a ridiculous amount of violent crime? Because a prosecutors office doesn’t… Read more »
@truth- I don’t think I missed the boat- and they are towing for two unpaid tickets- this includes meters and the automated cameras. Both of these types of violations there is no way to verify that the ticketed party is the owner of the vehicle. That’s my major problem with this towing. If an officer issues the ticket- and it goes unpaid- no problem, tow away.
I also agree that our illustrious prosecutor is a farce. Prosecutions are few and far between.
We also have a serious manpower deficit in Dayton- which is part of the reason we’ve given into cameras.
I know they can seize cars- they just don’t.
They are ticketing the owner of the vehicle….each and every citation issued by a camera, in every city, is reviewed by an employee of that department before it is filed with Redflex or whatever company they use. The photo is verified and checked through LEADS. This is the only way to know who the owner actually is. Parking citations are able to be issued, per state law, to a vehicle, not a person. In Dayton, like many other cities, parking citations can be issued by either an officer or civilian (meter maid). I think what you meant to say is that the “ticketed party isn’t the operator (or parker)” versus the ticketed party is the owner. You kind of prove my point? regarding violations. You say that if an officer writes a citation it is okay to tow. But if a ticket is issued in accordance to law, that a vehicle can’t be towed if not witnessed. Well, someone always witnesses a parking violation and (even though I don’t agree) the camera violations are also reviewed by an officer or agent of the agency. Since legislation is is place to use the cameras by Dayton, Trotwood, etc….you can’t slack on the enforcement of the law. In the instances where cars are being towed, the vehicle is the only collateral. Warrant blocks are put on licenses for unpaid tickets, which means a violator has to pay up before they can renew a license or tags with the BMV, but in most cases, the drivers in Dayton that are getting these tickets don’t give a shit and are driving under suspension anyway. So in the end, towing of the vehicles is the only solution to people not paying the piper when they break the law. If an owner is allowing a driver to violate the law, tough skittles. They pay the price for allowing a boyfriend/girlfriend, etc…to operate a vehicle in an irresponsible manner. Where do you draw the line? Ten tickets? 15? We don’t have to agree about the law or the practice of using cameras, but what… Read more »
You’re wasting your breath, Truth. Only in Dayton would people give “thumbs down” to someone advocating that citizens actually follow the law.
I hate to tell you so, but I told you so.
I hope by the time speeding cameras are everywhere that self-driving cars are also widely available. If they’re going to take the fun out of driving I want to be able to read books and surf the net while my car drives me, at the legal speed limit, where I want to go.
Diane… people aren’t thumbing you down for your support of abiding by laws…
<Diane… people aren’t thumbing you down for your support of abiding by laws…>
Maybe so, may not. Anyway, I wasn’t talking about me. I was talking about Truth.
They were most likely thumbing him down for making broad assumptions about entire populations in West Dayton, and for his almost foaming-at-the-mouth zeal for punishing others and adversarialism as a solution to problems.
“get the upper hand and rule with an iron fist” Hmmmmm…sounds like cover for an iron curtain.
“Kicking them directly in the gut” Sounds like something that ex-Marine who lived next door to Kevin Spacey in American Beauty would say.
“they don’t care about their credit being wrecked” – a nice example of “othering” humans and employing stereotypes and assumptions about others this ironically named poster has no personal knowledge of.
“Drive on the westside anytime recently? Down Gettysburg? SR49? I have and there is no regard for the law there. ” I drive in these areas all the time and have for years and don’t see any difference than the driving behavior anywhere else.
DSparks….if that is your assumption, you don’t pay attention to the motoring public. That is my perception along with many others who actually drive for a living including a concrete driver that services that area, a transit delivery driver, and myself. If this isn’t the case, then why does the crash data show that those are the highest crash locations? You are implying that DPD places cameras there because it is the “westside” versus the fact that people drive like asses there and have a much higher rate of driving under suspension violations per-capita than any other area of the city. I forgot, it is a ruse to exploit the black population right? Whatever. That’s your assumption. Your soft ideas regarding the enforcement of laws is precisely why Dayton and this country are falling apart at the seams. It starts with little things like this and expands. NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ACTIONS. Get it? Or should people do as they please? It is the truth Mr. Sparks that people take care of their vehicles like they take care of their finances. They also happen to drive with the same lack of responsibility. Riddle me this one Batman… Why does the westside have…. Highest homicide rate? Highest crime rate? Highest rate of drug locations that attract purchasers from neighboring counties? Highest rate of driving under suspension? Highest rate of violent crime? Is it starting to become a bit more clear? Is there any wonder why the accident rates and serious fatality rates on roadways are in the same area? Why doesn’t Oakwood, Vandalia, Huber Heights, Miamisburg, Englewood, or Centerville have these same problems and rates of crime. It is too obvious to answer, but it is easy. It is the wild west with lax enforcement of laws and a lack of resources to enforce said laws. Yes…I will foam at the mouth all day long to insist that laws are followed and punishment fits crimes. Guess I grew up a bit differently than you and expected to have a foot up my ass if I… Read more »
@Truth-
You say “Why don’t people speed through Oakwood? Because a motor officer is sitting there waiting to give you a 120 dollar coupon off your next paycheck.” which besides slowing people down- makes the police highly visible.
And you are correct- a radar officer has to calibrate his radar- it’s not the same as the cameras. Also- Oakwood gets ALL the money- not splitting it out with a company that installs the camera.
One of our regular commentors on this site- his father, retired engineer, got a red light ticket in Trotwood. He started doing his engineering thing, looked up the law on the light timings- the distance, the camera- the reported violation, and beat the ticket- because the city and redflex weren’t following the law- with a longer yellow- and in fact, had cut it short. Most of us don’t have the time to do all that- and that’s the problem- how many of these tickets were issues by malfunctioning or improperly programmed systems that are causing the ticket numbers to go up?
Dayton dropped the ball a long time ago when they stopped writing traffic tickets. Besides being revenue generators- the police presence cut down on crime. As you say- people don’t speed through Oakwood- and everyone knows it.
I’ll also fault the state- in Ohio, you can drive almost anything on the road. In Massachusetts, you can’t even drive a car with rust on the body. If we had vehicle inspections a lot of the uninsured heaps that are involved in traffic violations- wouldn’t be on the road. That may sound draconian- but I still believe having a bumper, functioning windshield wipers and headlights should be a minimum for being on the road- never mind windows, doors etc.
I don’t speed through Oakwood because of the probability that I will get a ticket. Not because I see an officer. I don’t speed or run red lights at photo enforced intersections because…you guessed it…I don’t want a ticket. David…you said that towing is picking on the poor. What in the heck will strict motor vehicle inspections do? Be a burden on the poor who drive crap cars and can’t afford to make them as road worthy as what some of us have in our garage. OSP is the only agency in the state that can randomly stop a car for an equipment inspection. PUCO/MCSAP can for commercial vehicles. So, unless the state changes their ways, cities can’t make random equipment stops, only the patrol. E-Check was a horse abortion of a program and did nothing but piss people off. All you had to do if you didn’t pass was prove to the BMV that you went to a mechanic and spent something like 500 dollars to fix the problem., If it still didn’t pass, you could get tags anyway. Nothing but a money grab. The major issue here is that people don’t have to agree with laws, but they should respect the laws. 19 damn tickets and people actually would have a problem with that person being held accountable. Unreal. Payment plan? Why do we cater to people who blatantly and continually violate the law? There is a big difference between a person that gets pulled over once every 5 years for speed or running a light and people who have complete and absolute disregard for the law. Why do people continually violate the law? Because there are no consequences. I dare anyone to try and rationalize why there is any good reason for anyone on the list in the article to be operating a vehicle. 14 unpaid tickets. Really? There is justification for this? If they got caught at these lights 14 times, how do any of you think they drive where there aren’t cameras? What do people want? Jail time for these people… Read more »
@truth: if you can name one piece of text in my response that mentions race, then you win a brand new daytoninformer.com T-Shirt!
I responded specifically to what you were implying…the same thing you did in relation to my post. Just as you assumed that I made assumptions. Nope…I connected the dots to why people do what they do.
It isn’t a broad assumption to state facts about crime and traffic statistics. It is fact. It is fact to say that people do what they do in certain areas because of the lack of police presence and enforcement of laws on the books. It is a fact because that’s what the criminals say.
Let’s keep doing things they way we are doing them, with a laissez-faire attitude, and in 10+ years we can continue to beat our heads against the wall trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. I will continue to see low levels of crime, fairly good property values, and a respect for laws in the suburbs. Until then, keep staring at this http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/data/1057882.html and try to put a finger on why people act the way they act. It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with a large concentration of people that don’t know how to act.
I only observed that you were making broad assumptions about a geographically-based population. You are the one bringing race into the discussion, and that speaks volumes for itself. There are lots of whites, hispanics, and others who live in West Dayton. I spend lots of time in West Dayton, in homes, on the streets, and on the roads there. I also drove a Dayton Public Schools bus for seven years, much of the time spent traversing the streets of West Dayton. I might know what I’m talking about when it comes to the driving in West Dayton thing.
Sparks….
Like in all of your past posts, you haven’t addressed any issues. Just dodging the facts of the article and any further discussion related to it. I am curious to know what your solution to the problem is and if you actually support the enforcement of laws?
You don’t see the racial undertones as with everything in this city? ““My main concern is why are most of the red camera lights in the West Dayton area?” said Smith’s husband, John Smith. “I think that’s very important and significant.”,,,if you don’t know what direction this is going then you aren’t paying attention. That’s the issue that I have with much of this. People who can’t simply say, “I am going to be a law abiding citizen”, will continue to blame others, including the government, for attempting to hold people accountable. Notice she didn’t make mention of the cameras at Stanley and Troy.
All along I have stated that personal responsibility and accountability, or lack thereof, has a direct relation to violations of law. Where there is high crime, there are people who are never held accountable and do as they please. It just so happens the numbers are high on the “westside”…Take it as you please.
Seems to me that NOT bringing race into the discussion is trying to ignore the elephant in the room. There isn’t one of us who hasn’t somehow broken some ‘law’ several times in our lifetimes unless you never get out of the house. People inadvertently follow the guy in front too closely, miss the ‘no turns on red’ signs at a few-and-far-between intersection, don’t turn on the turn signal at the proper distance, park at a meter that runs out, etc. Acting as though this is a criminal element is unwarranted and inaccurate. Breaking a traffic law is a misdemeanor and should NEVER result in towing of our car! That’s heaping more pain on the people who are, in general already suffering most from economic hardship. This ‘law and order’ talk sounds punitive and punishment does not lead to a more peaceful society. A better approach would be to try to envision walking a “Moon in their moccasins” (not a ‘mile’ as so many say) ……spending a whole month in their shoes and getting to know the people who are categorized, labeled and villified in these posts. Betcha their take on things is far different and that they’re not at all like you seem to think they are.
@Marianne…
How do you adequately enforce parking regulations in the city then? If violators don’t pay their fine, the only recourse at this point is to tow their vehicle.
Warrants will eventually phased out due to incarceration costs. Incarceration isn’t the answer as the costs outweigh the purpose regarding a minor violation. If people don’t pay their tickets, then what is the point of having the laws on the books anyway? They may be minor offenses, but if they weren’t enforced, every citizen would be inconvenienced in some way. Here is a law…parking in front of a private drive. What is the solution when someone blocks your driveway and you aren’t able to get your vehicle out of the drive? Parked across sidewalks? Enjoy walking the dog. Parked in front of a hydrant? Fire Department will love that one. Handicap violation? ADA folks will love that one. And this isn’t even hitting on camera violations. Just illegal parking. Go to a real city where parking laws are actually enforced. People bitch about it, but the excuses are few and far between compared to here.
“Law and Order” talk should be punishment. Who would have thought that people would actually be held accountable and punished for breaking the law? What a concept.
A better approach is not to walk a “moon in their moccasins”. I don’t need to get to know a person who has 14+ tickets, as I highly doubt we will have much in common. I don’t see them being very responsible and I sure as hell won’t have them slide by my house to pick me up in a car for dinner.
I ask one question to you. What is the recourse for blatant violators of traffic and parking violations in the city? A hug? Keep banging your head on the wall people and keep wondering why Dayton is the way it is. Pass the buck!!!!
Today’s Dayton Daily News has an article on this subject, “Legal battle brewing over camera tickets, towing“:
Truth, I think this driver needs a hug. Let’s send Marianne.
http://www.whiotv.com/news/news/local/man-threatens-crash-witnesses-flees-scene/nNynj/
oKAY!!!!!! I’ll go! : )
My point is that traffic violations should not cost so much that people cannot really afford to pay them. The price has been going way up on small and usually unintentional violations. While the cameras have been going up, the normal length of time alotted for a yellow light has been slashed, forcing drivers to choose between braking hard and risking a rear-ending or gunning it to get through before the light is red. Raising money on the backs of those who cannot fight back is unfair. I agree that repeat offenders are displaying something other than just an innocent mistake and the cost of tickets should be geared to go up with each subsequent ticket. But to categorize a whole community as ‘lawbreakers’ misses the mark. Racism is not only a part of American history but also has long been entrenched in Dayton’s policies and practices. A little bit less judgment and more compassion and interconnectivity between all of us is long overdue.
“My point is that traffic violations should not cost so much that people cannot really afford to pay them.” That is the purpose. If a ticket costs me 5 dollars to pay the fine, or even 50, I am not going to be deterred by the fine. I will speed and speed and speed, and throw 5 bucks a week in a kitty to take care of the fines. Now, you hit be with 100 bucks, plus court costs, plus points, plus increases in insurance premiums…it is a different story. The financial deterrent is enough incentive for me not to break the law. You would assume that that financial deterrent for poor people to follow the law would be even more than for someone with a nice income? So, you want to make breaking the law more affordable for poor people? Great solution. Let us not deter law breaking, but encourage it with weaker penalties. Perfect. Fines are to be deterrents when jail time is not an option. That is the point. You assume that the yellow lights at all instances of traffic cameras has been slashed. This has been addressed by Esrati’s pal that challenged a ticket and won, good for him. I would do the same. However, to insist that yellow lights at all intersection have been shortened to generate income is false. Esrati’s example proved that there was an issue at one intersection, not at all of them. The city wouldn’t be raising money on the backs of those who cannot fight if those that cannot afford to fight would obey laws. And to second that, you don’t need an attorney to fight a civil infraction which has been discussed at length in relation to the fact that cameras are faulted on the premise of due process. However, parking violations and camera violations need to be looked at in two totally different ways due to the laws they are based on. Once again, I am not for cameras. However, legislation is in place for the police/city to act in the manner they are acting. The supreme court has ruled… Read more »
Also from today’s paper:
My problems with this are twofold- one- no confirmation that the driver got ticketed- and that the car owner had the tickets delivered, and that the penalty is much greater than the crime. You dropped a piece of gum, we’ll give you 10 lashings? This isn’t Singapore.
A civil case with a major fine- that’s being enforced to help pay a private company- what next?
Your car being seized because you didn’t tip the waiter at dinner?
Truth will probably hate this but in European countries fines for speeding and other offenses are often variable based on one’s income. Such countries recognize that one size does not fit all when it comes to fines, thinking that a single size would be disproportionately harsh for lower-income people and not enough incentive for higher-income people. See this new article, “Speeding fines being linked to income in Europe“:
Alright! My very first hidden due to low ratings!
Traffic ticket prices have gone way up. I got a $115 ticket for a license plate light in Kettering. I got a speeding ticket on N Main ( i was definitely speeding, totally my fault) that was $100. Tickets are HUGE revenue stream for local municipalities, so of course they will go up and ordinances will be written to grab more of that dollar. However, State laws must be followed too (Ohio Uniform Traffic Ticket standards, presentation of the ticket by an officer, etc….).
Watch who you vote for on the local level, if an ordinance is passed (by city council, township trustees, etc…) authorizing the enforcement of camera violations, a citizen has little choice but to pay the fine or suffer the consequences. The officials who passed the ordinance are elected, and can be replace….though that appears to be harder than it should be in Dayton.
Joe… Citations costs aren’t much more than they were years ago. You are looking at total costs, which you need to look at the entire picture. Your costs have increased not because of the fine for the actual violation but for court costs and fees associated with it. A minor misdemeanor maximum fine has been 100 bucks for as long as I can remember. Cities aren’t getting a “revenue stream” for speeding tickets. Most cities are lucky to get 5 bucks for a contested citation. The revenue generated barely even offsets the cost to actually write and process the citation. (Man hours for officers, records, and processing). Most municipal budgets don’t even consider ticket revenue as part of their revenues for annual budgets and those that do, it is minimal This changes however with the implementation of cameras, where there it is strictly revenue and no associated costs with a court. The total amounts have increased because of the rollups that are in your court costs. You are paying an “indigent defense fund” fee as a part of your costs. To pay for public defenders for indigent defendants. You are paying costs associated with the costs for ILC (TLC), electronic home detention, treatment programs, etc. Vandaliia Municipal Court is the busiest one judge municipal court in the state, and their costs cover their operating expenses and not much more. It isn’t a money grab like so many people believe. Do some research, you will be amazed at what your citation payment is actually funding. It typically funds programs that Marianne will like…those that have no positive outcome other than making some people “feel good” about a program and that they “tried something different” that some college professor wrote a book about with no knowledge of the criminal justice system, let alone psychology or sociology. Here is a small example…if a municipal court processes 20000 tickets a year and the “profit” of said ticket is 100 bucks, simple math gets you to 2 million in “revenue” for that court. Take a staff of 40… Read more »
I’m totally cool with the wealthy having to pay more than $100 for a speeding ticket. There’s a reason insurance companies look at corvettes or lambos as “ticket magnets.” Because people who can afford them can also easily afford to pay the $100 speeding ticket and thus speed more frequently (isn’t one of the joys of owning high quality driving machines taking that machine to the limit?). $100 seems like a fair base fine for speeding to me, then use a sliding scale to increase fines on those who can more easily afford them and thus abuse those laws. I know the $250 base fine in Portland was enough for my moderately income earning self to drive like a grandma everyday as it was just at the point to really pinch me. The idea of the European model still works for this US liberal.
Dan… So much for equitable and fair laws…guess civil rights only apply to minorities and the poor? This is where the system of points should come into play. Don’t penalize by financial burdens based on wealth, use the points system to seize driving privileges. Remember, driving is a privilege, not a right. Buy a bus pass and leave the house earlier. Unfortunately, we can’t hold judges and courts accountable, because every time you turn the corner, people want to loosen the grip that the courts have on offenses. Unclassified misdemeanors…what a joke. You get 12 points in Ohio before you lose your license: “If you’re caught speeding, you will generally be assessed a penalty of either two or four points. Examples of two-point violations include going 10-30 miles per hour (mph) over the limit in an area with a speed limit of 55 mph or more. Or driving 5-30 mph over the limit in an area where the speed limit is 55 mph or less. Four-point violations include driving 30 mph or more over the limit in any zone. In some instances, no points will be applied for speeding. Examples of this include driving less than 10 mph over the limit in an area where the limit is 55 mph or greater. Or, being 5 mph or less over the limit in areas where the limit is under 55 mph.” So, instead of the current points system, increase them much more for superspeeders (which is apparently what the rich people do…not poor drug dealers in rental cars?…), or better yet…”TOW THEIR DAMN CAR”. What better financial deterrent than having officers tow your car if you get caught as a superspeeder of 30 or more over the limit. Pretty good deterrent for me not to drive in excess of 95 mph on the interstate. I mean, isn’t all of this in the name of public safety, to make roadways and communities safer? At least that is what the basis for law enforcement and crime prevention is. If they were in the profit business, we would be living in a much different… Read more »
if you read my post a bit more carefully you’ll see that I don’t advocate relaxing current fines on the poor, just increasing them on those for whom $100 is no fine at all. How are we keeping the streets safe from them? I jog on Patterson all the time… those people drive dangerously with a very high frequency. This has nothing to do with “civil rights.”
Truth “wonder[s] why jails and prisons are full of poor people.” It couldn’t possibly have anything at all to do with rich people’s having better connections and having access to better legal help, could it?
See “The Crime of Being Poor“:
“A central part of the mythology of the criminal justice system in the United States is that everyone is treated equally, regardless of his or her race or class. The concept that no one is above the law is a noble one. Like many good ideas, reality usually lags far behind the rhetoric.”
perfectly stated… I was going to say something similar in response… but I’m trying to keep my responses brief. The scale of justice is weighted heavily toward those who can pile up the most money on their side. How else can you explain the success of Monsanto? Truth – your assessment of what constitutes “civil rights” would be humorous if it weren’t scary.
I’ve tried three times to post in response to David Lauri who is “right on” in what he says…….but wasn’t entering the code right or something so lost all three long paragraphs. That’ll teach me! Soooooooo, let me just say I just witnessed, while I was writing, a police car pull over a guy in an old junker car and within minutes, Summit Towing came and took it away, leaving him standing on the curb with the things from inside the car as he was on his way to the plasma center near here to give plasma for a whopping $35 to get by! When the officer asked why he hadn’t paid his camera tickets, he said, “I didn’t have the money.” And that’s it in a nutshell! NOW, on top of having tickets he cannot pay, he has a car he cannot afford to have returned to him. This is both ungodly cruel and unconstitutional. Our police and our laws are becoming more draconian by the day. Sooner or later, maybe we’ll realize we’re all in this together.
@Truth and this guy gets 7 days in Jail: http://esrati.com/miscarriage-of-justice-lying-thievin-ceo-gets-7-days-in-prison-grocery-clerk-gets-hammered/7472/
When are you going to realize that the value of the car far exceeds the value of the tickets? It’s called unreasonable punishment. The constitution protects us from that- supposedly.
The first job I ever had right out of college was working telephone and field collections for GMAC. Repossessing cars for a living – wow, I was gutsy in those days. I met a lot of people in a variety of dire circumstances. Some had arrived there by way of their own stupid life choices and others by sheer bad luck, but they all had one thing in common. They were all living beyond their means.
It seems to me that if you can’t afford to pay your parking or red light tickets, then you probably can’t afford the automobile maintenance, fuel, upkeep, insurance and licensing required BY LAW. It’s not cruel and heartless to suggest that such a person might be better off taking the bus, riding a bike, walking or relying on friends and neighbors for a ride for a few months until he gets his financial house in order.
What you all aren’t seeing is that two wrongs, don’t make a right. For every “rich” guy that gets a favorable outcome on a case, there is a “poor” guy that gets off as well. But…that never makes headlines…I guess we need to hammer the rich instead of trying to make the system equal? I have yet to see any solutions from my opposition, just invalid arguments about why it is right to hammer the rich.
And by the way…I am far from rich.
Diane……….they were all “living beyond their means”??!? How in the world could you or anyone know what all has happened in the course of that person’s or any person’s life that put them in a financial predicament? We need to not make unfair and hard-nosed assumptions that are touted all over the place these days. People are not out of work because they’re “lazy” or “not looking” or “not responsible”. People are not having their cars towed or houses repossessed because they are “living beyond their means”. Most of us are within 2 or 3 paychecks of not being able to pay our most basic bills. Jobs are shipped offshore or companies move or shut down, a medical crisis hits, the housing market tanks, life happens. We need to not buy into the ‘media hype’ that faults the victim and instead stand in solidarity with our fellow citizens who are being hit hard. This is not to say there aren’t any irresponsible people but they’re the exception and not the rule. Most folks strive to provide for their families and to be productive. The problems our country faces are caused by forces outside our control….the speculators on Wall Street, huge multinational corporations, banks that engage in predatory lending and shady accounting practices. We really are ‘all in this together’. I’m stunned at the punitive and self-righteous stance taken by so many against their fellow man (and woman! : ).
Truth…… I work for a company that writes software for municipal courts, police, finance, utility, etc…… so my “research” is how I keep a roof over my head. Municipalities would not have municipal court unless it generated……REVENUE! Yes, fees go to various things (indigent defense being one of those). Believe it or not, a municipality is run like a business, revenues supporting municipal services, paying off bonds,etc…. Opening a municipal court can be an investment for the city and can pay off in the longer term, just like taking over billing for utilities can generate revenue too. Or Tax collection. Vandalia does tax collection for many municipalities and they make an overhead on that, and the city they do taxes for saves by not having to hire a staff, own computer systems, etc…. Regionalism starting to work in that case. I’m not saying that “Speeding/traffic tickers are paying for the whole city budget” I said it was a revenue stream, not the entire funding for the city. Perhaps by saying it was huge was overstating, but in some cases it can be an important part of the budget. A municipalities chart of accounts can be very large, with money coming from all different places and paying out to many as well. The location I am working at now receipts tens of millions in utilities. They generate their own power, pump their own water/waste water, collect their own trash, even bill for internet. They are not very big either, comparable to say Tipp City – maybe a little bigger. The utilities receipts help pay for the cost of the running the city (electric, water, police, fire, etc…..), as do the tickets they write help pay for other services. I never claimed tickets were a “money grab”, just that the price had gone up and tickets can be a significant part of that. Particularly in a place like Kettering (where I got my license plate light) because they have their own municipal court as well. As much money from the fine stays in Kettering as possible. Again, I’d like to see more… Read more »
Joe… Thanks for the insightful post. You got a thumbs up from me. Much of my response to your earlier post wasn’t completely directed in response to your post, but in general to many of the misconceptions, by other posters, about what you and I have touched on. My point was that “revenue streams” from local courts aren’t paying the bills, and without having a few city budgets in front of me, I would venture to say out of a 20 million budget for a city, the “revenue” generated is less than 1%. That is after expenses. Hardly a “revenue stream” that is going to balance any police budget, let alone a city budget. It just isn’t going to happen. Cities aren’t balancing budgets on the backs of citations issued to taxpayers. Vandalia offers tax collection, like you said as a form of regional cooperation, just as Huber Heights and Englewood dispatch for other cities. Vandalia doesn’t use their tax department as a huge revenue stream, but rather the chips fell into place for them to collect for other cities because they had the infrastructure and capital in place to do it. The other players in the game didn’t, and that is why Vandalia continued to do it and took over for the other cities. Vandalia was the big dog in the fight and were able to offer a service. If it weren’t for the failures of RITA, Vandalia wouldn’t be doing regional collection. The other cities sold off capital, just like the cities that sold off dispatch to MCSO, and were in a position where they were pot committed to contract services. In the end, cooperation that you speak of isn’t creating bankrolls for anyone, just streamlining services and saving a few bucks here and there in the form of payroll. Maybe a 100-200k or so for a small city that Vandalia collects for so they are able to abolish their tax department. HH may save 100k a year in a position subsidy for dispatch. This is all off the beaten path, but it simply shows… Read more »
Speed Camera Dystopia, Softball Interviews and more…
From the Dayton Extra Newsletter
it’s bizarre to me that they wouldn’t have something in place like that already.
The Dayton Daily News picks up the story:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/vehicle-towing-ordinances-eased-after-publics-reaction-1380573.html
Riverside decides not to do speed and redlight cameras-
dotodo …….i stopped reading these comments the dumb asses run red lights or let time expire on the meters blah blah blah what ever the answer is not taking someones car that eliminates said persons ability to get to work “ride the bus” you fawqing stupid buses dont run on time or 24 hours a day i propose putting the tickets on the water bills the month following its due date…. every car is registered to a address so is every water bill………… i know i know thats putting the head of household out for something that roommate did or kids did whatever then let them handle it internally within the home….. people will pay these tickets if there water is at stake and the will be able to get to work……taking a 3k car for 500 dollars worth the tickets is theft no more how you sum it up ……………or here is a idea how about community service……. make these idiots clean up the city some!!!!!! wow all these big brains not making any ideas to fix the problem glad i only spent 1/2 hour reading through it