Occupy Dayton IS the “Grande Illumination”
Sandy Gudorf is an overpaid tool of corporate America. As the president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership she is paid more than $100K a year to tax property owners and then give tax breaks to new businesses. She also hires cheap contract labor to do the job of cleaning downtown sidewalks as a way to sidestep standard employment practices.
Now, she also wants to limit free speech- because lighting a Christmas tree is now more important than free speech (never mind the separation of church and state). In the Dayton Daily News she claims that because she brings 30K people to the square and it’s a 39-year-old tradition- we shouldn’t be allowed to protest the giant inequities that have developed in our country- thanks to people like her who believe in corporate welfare more than in human welfare and dignity:
Occupy Dayton, the local Wall Street and establishment protest linked with other protests throughout the nation, is being asked to temporarily move from Courthouse Square downtown for the Nov. 25 Grande Illumination.
The request came Thursday from Sandy Gudorf, president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, the business group that organizes the holiday ceremonial Christmas tree-lighting and festivities. “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
via Occupy Dayton protest must relocate for Grande Illumination.
The question to ask Ms. Gudorf is how exactly she is going to enforce her personal ban on free speech- will people wearing Obama shirts be asked to leave the square? Or if the Klu Klux Klan shows up in their bedsheets? (she’ll quickly learn that arresting the KKK is impossible, it’s already been tested in the courts).
Gudorf is an idiot. By whining a few weeks before the event, she’s already begun to solidify the movement’s resolve to be there. I plan on being there wearing my sandwich board- and I’ll be damned if she, or any police officer is going to tell me I don’t have a right to be there.
The Occupy Movement’s real motivation is to enlighten the 99% of the wholesale illegal transfer of wealth though government-sponsored policies that have made our country a third world debtor nation on the brink of collapse. The Sandy Gudorfs of the world have helped banks take our homes, our jobs and destroy our standard of living.
In fact, one of the main reasons the “Grande Illumination” has grown in scale over the recent years is because it’s a free event- something nice people can do who can’t afford a Christmas tree or as many presents as they used to give thanks to the wizards of Wall Street and our sold-out politicians.
I urge you to join me in protesting with the Occupy movement on Nov. 25th at Courthouse Square.
As a shameless plug: my ad agency, The Next Wave has produced some stickers to show your support of the movement and is donating 20% of each sale to the local movement. Stickers are 99¢ each and available at: www.stickittothe1percent.com
[UPDATE]After a few days- Gudorf is now only asking for the tents to go – not the protesters- at least, that’s what I’m interpreting.
That’s an acceptable position – but- the protest can and should still go on.
@Shortwest Rick added this video to the discussion- well worth watching:
Dan,
The reason I put quotes around “fundamentalists” is because you were using it inappropriately. Thanks for pointing that out in your recent post.
My above post was not petty. It was a plea. A plea to talk about the fundamental basis for decision making.
I would suggest that you could perform a self assessment and a bit of introspection to understand if you are making logical arguments based on your fundamental values.
Jesse, I never thought I had any conversation with you here…I’m confused as to who you are?
And the conversation can end right there because guess what? There never was and never will be a completely deregulated marketplace. It is a fantasy. Every governmental agency the world over has rules and regulations regarding whom can trade with whom and under what circumstances. And if you want to try to go outside of governments, I’ll argue that every organized human society has rules that regulate who can trade with whom and at what times.
For example, in this article: http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/TooManyBananas.html you can see that purchasing food in this culture is unacceptable…kind of like sex is in our culture. There will always be regulation. Humans like to make rules about how trade can happen.
Karen, the beer tasting sounds like a grand idea. I’m just not sure I could refrain from mic-checking if the beers are not all locally produced. ;)
Love it Allison! And please do…right up to the State House and protest the amazing cost of establishing a brewery in the State of Ohio. I believe it is about $8k to get the same license that costs $100 in Michigan! Go Local! :)
…and Jesse, I didn’t mean to be insulting. I was probably trying to fight fire with fire. You obviously are quite well-read.
Ok, I even gave you a “thumbs-up” on that one!
Jesse – I actually haven’t made any arguments in my recent posts other than I don’t like the mean spirited tone of many of the posts made here, and that I don’t believe it’s healthy politically or personally to adhere to a specific ideology. I guess if playing nice and remaining open to new ideas is me making logical arguments based upon my own fundamental values, then I guess you could say I’m fundamentally me… if I understand what you’re getting at.
and yes, from what I know of MOST political bodies currently in power, or seeking it, I have a hard time believing they want a “better world for all,” because currently they don’t work for all of us. Libertarians included. But if the presidential race ended up between Obama and Ron Paul… I’d vote Paul… even though I vehemently disagree with about half of his policy choices. He currently represents to me the lesser of two evils. Regulation is certainly an area I strongly disagree with libertarians on and would love to have a civil conversation about it (I don’t have time for that here though), because as I mentioned about a hundred posts back I really don’t see how you can read “The Jungle” and not see a need for strong regulation of industrial and economic interests… though I agree the current system of lobbying for it is not working in our (the people’s) best interest. Someone much smarter than me will have to figure out the best solution to that one.
…actually someone much smarter than me will need to figure all of this out… I’m good at seeing the problems (aren’t we all?) not necessarily sure of the best solutions.
KAK,
As to who I am:
“@Jesse…there’s many more economics texts than you are perhaps aware of. As an economic anthropologist, may I suggest the following resources on economic theory and understanding:”
Your above post is not an argument. It is a logical fallacy. Saying that the system is a fantasy because it hasn’t previously existed is not logical. 2013 isn’t a fantasy and it hasn’t existed. A person who lives to 140 isn’t a fantasy and it hasn’t happened yet.
When discussing economic systems and philosophies should we only discuss those that have been attempted? Before the minimal regulations that occurred in the American experiment, that level of free-market had not been attempted in more than 400 years. It had never been attempted by a large, intelligent and well read populace. To say in 1650 that a largely unregulated market was a fantasy would have been incorrect. To say that an unregulated economy is a fantasy (meaning impossible) is similarly incorrect.
And just to be clear, “regulation” means the use of force by a third party to prevent two property owners from behaving freely and exchanging goods and services. Humans may like to use force to compel others to act as they see fit, but that is hardly an argument for the use of force. It wasn’t a good argument for slavery and it isn’t a good argument for “regulations”.
Any interest in discussing the fundamentals of economics or addressing any specific concepts on which we disagree?
Jesse says, “It had never been attempted by a large, intelligent and well read populace.”
I ask, do you know where we can find a country with a large population the majority of whom are intelligent and well read?
Jesse, ok, now I see who you are. I’m sorry I didn’t understand who you were before.
I’m pondering your comments here and want to give them a dignified response. First let me explain that I am not proposing something that is a logical fallacy. People who are proponents of a completely free market are misguided because of the nature of humans and their social practices. Humans have always had rules regarding exchange. Humans always live in groups. They are never completely independent actors and never function outside of social systems. As such, the entire economic model that poses an individual as a rational choice maker who decides what to do for him or herself are misguided because NO ONE acts with entirely self-focused intention. All humans must take care for those who are dear to them. Perhaps this is a “female” perspective because as a woman, I know that in order to do what is best for ME, I must also consider what is best for the children I have born. There is no way for me to engage in exchange with someone else that is a “property owner” completely free from some sort of control mechanism. The third party in this case is my child. While a child does not use “force” to regulate my behaviors, I must gauge what I do according to their well-being.
People who understand and accept this – as I do out of necessity – are aware of the fact that we all live in relationship with one another. There will always be a need for regulatory measures that ensure that our exchange does not harm those who depend upon us. If it is not simply my own morals and empathy toward my child that regulates me…if I am a terrible parent and decide to engage in market behavior that harms my child – others in my community will “regulate” my behavior on behalf of my child.
Do you understand this argument? Can you see where I am coming from here? I’m not speaking of “agencies” or “governments”…I’m talking about social relationships.
Dan says, “if the presidential race ended up between Obama and Ron Paul… I’d vote Paul… even though I vehemently disagree with about half of his policy choices.”
Dan, have you see the AlterNet article entitled, “5 Reasons Progressives Should Treat Ron Paul with Extreme Caution — ‘Cuddly’ Libertarian Has Some Very Dark Politics“? The article’s subtitle is “He’s anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-senior-citizen, anti-equality and anti-education, and that’s just the start,” and it talks about Paul’s record on race, reproductive rights, LGBT people, Social Security, and Christian Reconstructionists.
If we just take this model…this understanding of how humans engage in the social aspect of exchange…it is clear that there is no way to create a world where there are no controls over the way in which we share. There are few human universals. One is that humans use language to communicate with other humans. Another is that we all share food. There are no cases of humans throughout history who have – from birth – lived entirely alone without having exchange with other people. And in every one of these cases there have been some sort of social understandings and rules that govern our exchange behaviors.
In the case of Occupy Wall Street, what the protesters are saying is that we want the rules to change. We want to change our systems such that it is more equitable and fair to all when engaging in the marketplace. We also want all exchange to be transparent. We want to SEE who is trading WHAT at all times so that we can determine whether or not crimes or breaches in our social contracts are being made. We also want these contracts to be the basis of our exchange rather than having special rules for special folks who can find a way to operate outside of the contracts that bind the rest of us.
I want to pause though and compliment you, Jesse, on your idealism. I too share this trait. I am hopeful that humans can regulate themselves. I’m a starry-eyed anarchist. And before you jump on that and think of Johnny Lydon and the Sex Pistols, research what an anarchist actually believes.
I find common ground with you in that I would like to see a society – I’d like to live in a society – where people can come together to decide what is fair and just and make decisions for their group without the need of established governments or legal authorities. I would like to see something that has only existed in small scale societies at a few times throughout history. I’m a pipe dreamer too. I don’t like the idea of a representative democracy any longer because I’ve seen what our “representatives” have done with the power we hand to them. I have a “fantasy” (like you do) of something…but what I fantasize is small scale direct democracy among consenting groups of people who then negotiate with other small groups in an effort to create trade agreements that please both groups. I’m sure I am just as pie in the sky as you are in this way.
Kak,
I am an anarcho-capitalist. I know well the value of anarchy.
Your choosing to behave differently is far different than your daughter regulating your decision. You make the decision. She is your primary value and you make decisions that benefit that value. Regulation means that an outside individual tells you that regardless of your values you are restricted from making an exchange. A regulation is that you can’t sleep with a man for money to buy drugs that would save your child’s life. This outside party (an individual or a society) believes that their values are more important than yours.
Anarchy would work. Individuals act purposefully and in, what they believe to be, their own best interest. We don’t need regulation from our overlords. We don’t need society to vote on the transactions we should be allowed to make. We need freedom and liberty. I am glad that you too are an idealist. I would love to discuss some fundamentals to understand where we differ on our understanding of freedom and anarchy.
Jesse,
I think I understand you better now and would enjoy discussing this further (not taking over David’s blog :) ).
I believe I’ve relegated myself to the notion that we can only achieve that sense of freedom we both desire through Hakim Bey’s “Temporary Autonomous Zones” and that it is futile to aspire to large level direct democracy/anarchism. I also want to confess that I am hypocritical in a few ways. The example you give above of my choice to sleep with a man in order to get money to obtain drugs to heal my sick child is a case in point. As a woman, I am well aware that my notions of “freedom” and “anarchy” are contingent upon others choosing to behave “fairly”. I am divorced and I have 3 kids. My ex has some substance abuse issues that made it necessary for me to leave him. I rely on THE STATE to regulate his income so that I receive funds from him which I use to raise my children. (I work and go to school and care for myself and my children as well). I am fortunate to have a regulatory agency that forces him to care for us. If humans lose their sense of obligation and relationship to others, there must be systems in place to ensure that no one is FORCED to sleep with someone else in order to obtain the resources necessary to raise a child (or 3).
I love being an idealist. I also accept that my idealism cannot always find play in real life. It is my hope that by protesting as we are through OWS, people in power feel social pressure to change things up a bit and take the rules back to a “fair game”. What happened in 2007-2008 was clearly NOT transparent and NOT something that opening up regulations would have prevented. It was clear out and out theft. Perhaps this is something we won’t see eye to eye on even with our shared anarchistic tendencies.
Thanks for the exchange! I’ve enjoyed thinking this through!
Thanks David Lauri – I had not read that article, but was aware of most of the criticism that it did bring up. I would never describe any politician as “cuddly,” and as I said I vehemently… not softly, but vehemently disagree with at least half of what he says, but I could say that about nearly every politician in the country except Obama the candidate, however, not Obama the president who in my mind has become quite hypocritical in comparison to his campaign persona. There was one key piece of information I was not aware of which I’ll admit has altered my stance on throwing my hat to Paul should it come down to that (of course it won’t)… that being more ties to corporate interests than I was aware of. He been running on a platform of working for us… not them… similar to Obama in 2008… and in neither situation is it true apparently. I just want a president who works in OUR best interest… not THEIRS.
Also kudos to Jesse and KAK for having the most interesting and intelligent back and forth I’ve read on here thus far… hijack away.
(Ron Paul) is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-senior-citizen, anti-equality and anti-education…(David Lauri)
…plus he cheats at Parcheesi, steals from the church collection plate, pulls the wings off butterflies and breaks into blind people’s houses while they are gone and rearranges their furniture…
Mic checks are intended to shock folks who are worshiping at the alter of consumerism into a possible realization of what their pursuit of the almighty bargain really means. (KAK)
…and thank you for that KAK. There is nothing the Old Bandito appreciates more than to be lectured to and have his values questioned by people a third his age…
When someone is insecure about themself, they run others down; I have done it myself, too. But Ron Paul is a smart man, probably too smart for his own good, but I’m sure he’s not all that listed above by D.L.
But us humans will never be as smart as we want to be … Why are we even giving Newt Gingrich sp.? a chance when he has a checkered past? Why do we hate Herman Cain so much for his infidelity; but the dummy was married at the time of his affairs so it’s his own damn fault. At least Newt and Ron have political experience while Herman is only a pizza guy and mathematician.
We’re all just crazy and arrogant, think about it …
Get our facts straight before posting, please!
Ice…the Mic Check is a strategy of protest. It’s a direct action. It’s like carrying a sign. It’s like a “public service announcement” on TV. It’s performance art???
No one assumes you are stupid. We are just reminding people that they have a choice. They can opt out. They can reject this system that tells us we need to go into debt in order to continue to be dutiful consumers of the products they want us to buy thereby increasing their profits on the back of our – and our brethren worldwide – workforce and environment.
I continue to ponder why we willingly participate in a system that scolds us for going into debt for the purchase of a home or education but goads us day in and day out via marketing and advertising in an attempt to convince us we need to buy, buy, buy. It makes me think of this sketch by Bill Hicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo
I haven’t seen anyone scolded for going into debt to buy a house or pay for an education. I have seen people being held responsible for the debt they WILLINGLY entered into.
Sure, ever ad agency since the time they started in business, or any merchant since the time business began have urged consumers to buy their products. That’s how they make their money. Signs listing prices, or slick Madison Avenue commercials don’t FORCE you to spend money, that’s your choice. It’s called free will, just like whether you decide to NOT rob a bank because you don’t care for the penalty if you get caught.
Ha ha ha ha ha….ok, so let’s get this straight: People don’t need to learn and they don’t need a place to live? There’s no “forcing” folks to enter into indebted relationships with lending institutions? Exactly where do you live cause I want to move there, Pat. Is there really a land where food grows free on trees, everyone has a roof over their head, and education is free?
I’m quitting as much as possible. You won’t find me buying anything that I can avoid buying from these slick advertisers. I’m smarter than that. And perhaps I can snobbishly look down my nose at the foolish among you who drive new cars, purchase new clothes, and “gasp” own a cell phone that you’ve “upgraded” recently. I’ll adopt this attitude that I KNOW better than to engage in your economic system. Maybe my elitist attitude will catch on? Maybe I’ll be “the new cool” and everyone will want to be like me. Suddenly…there won’t be a need for your advertising and marketing because no one will care. We’ll all be so smart and savvy that we won’t buy into your silly manipulations.
Ah. I can just see that world. It’s a lovely place. Too bad I have to live here where we are taunted to want and then critiqued for going into debt. But you know what they say about dogs…don’t wave the food too close to their mouth…they might bite!
KAK, Does this sound familiar?
“We are all victims of a system that has been highjacked by a selct few. And the great thing about OWS is that, unlike the tea party, we don’t see ourselves as helpless and hopeless asking the existing government to fix all our problems…we’re doing it ourselves.”
With Mic checks at Wal Mart, childish confrontations, and video rants that create an image that the great expeiment has little
direction and is compromised by a lunatic fringe. If ever a group could benefit from a positive marketing campaign that would create a positive perception it would be the Occupy group. Perhaps a name change is in order. How about “Revoution Lite”?
“Revolution Lite”
I think people may be confused by “Revoution Lite” Bobby as generally in the English language, we have different spelling rules that enable folks to access and understand the written word. Did you know that the “gh” in “light” is silent? Or do you learn your spelling entirely from product ads for beer? And “revolution” includes an “l”….
But thanks for the suggestions. If you wish to volunteer your marketing skills for OD, please come on down!
Argumentum ad hominem……..If it makes you feel better to belittle the typos, enjoy. I didn’t write this for you to grade, teacher.
Will this affect my grade?
From recent OD member Facebook posts:
“Mic check at Walmart! Down with the Man!” vs. the suggestion that someone should use their Sam’s Club card and buy the campers some groceries.
“Ha ha! Your pathetic anti-OD page only has x number of “Likes”! Losers!” vs. OD has 4,600+ likes, yet none of those ardent supporters will pick up the campers trash (btw, how are they generating so much garbage?), donate money to the cause, or provide groceries to the campers.
My husband accuses me of being addicted to “train wreck tv”, but this is so much better.
I guess not since I’ve received no monies from you for the service of educating you…and as this is my profession, I’d be remiss if I didn’t attempt to extricate what is rightfully my due in this system, no?
I also see that you DID intend to grade the Occupy movement in your above comment. Do you think that it is our intent to look pretty and neat and clean for you to feel comfortable with us? How could any non-violent protest be successful if it isn’t the least bit disturbing?
Direct actions come in many forms…violent and non-violent…Mic Checking is a new, non-violent tactic. It does not effect the clarity of our message. If you choose not to hear the message, then by all means, procure some ear plugs. I understand the foam ones you can squeeze and insert into your ears work well. And if you are annoyed by our presence, check out aisle six at your local big-box store for a blindfold. Everyone is going to need these items soon if they want to pretend it is going to be business as usual…
Allison, I agree, the FB OD page is a nightmare. We now have a private group page where all of our serious and daily conversations take place. The FB page has been overtaken by trolls for the most part. And it is the place, unfortunately, where some folks have chosen to show their proverbial “ass”. I can see how it resembles a Maury show. I guess this is our gift to the community. Enjoy a laugh at our expense.
And Sam’s Club is the epitome of the corporate beast…even if it has great deals on Sabra Hummus! ;)
” for the service of educating you….as this is my profession, I’d be remiss if I didn’t attempt to extricate what is rightfully due..”
Had I contracted with you, you could invoice and expect payment. There would be no moratorium on contract law on my behalf.
” pretty, neat and clean. for you to feel comfortable with us ”
Really? Are you serious? This isn’t Alice’s Restaurant, and Occupy isn’t Arlow Guthrie The only cleanliness that had concerned me was that the great expeiment on Courthouse Square didn’t turn into a petri dish.
‘if you choose not to hear the message”
This is your marketing problem. The message is garbled. Big corporations are bad. How big do you have to be to be bad? If anarchy is your thing, say it. If capitalism is bad and must go, then what do you propose to replace it with.
Without capitalism ,do we need unions? Bigger government? Smaller government (like the tea party advocates). Shall we default on the national debt and stick it to this country’s creditors, so that we can re-set and have forgivenes of mortgages, college loans,and reparations? If we default, will we need a bigger military to protect us from our creditors?
“In a revolution, as in a novel, the most difficult part to invent is the end.” – Alexis DeTocqueville
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-i-stopped-worrying-and-learned-to-love-the-ows-protests-20111110#ixzz1dNdkxIPb
I think this article by Michael Tabbai summarizes what we are doing. NO ONE in OWS claims to have all of the answers. As a matter of fact, I think we celebrate the fact that there aren’t any neat, tidy, easy solutions.
Tabbai explains what we are doing well here:
“But now, I get it. People want to go someplace for at least five minutes where no one is trying to bleed you or sell you something. It may not be a real model for anything, but it’s at least a place where people are free to dream of some other way for human beings to get along, beyond auctioned “democracy,” tyrannical commerce and the bottom line.
We’re a nation that was built on a thousand different utopian ideas, from the Shakers to the Mormons to New Harmony, Indiana. It was possible, once, for communities to experiment with everything from free love to an end to private property. But nowadays even the palest federalism is swiftly crushed. If your state tries to place tariffs on companies doing business with some notorious human-rights-violator state – like Massachusetts did, when it sought to bar state contracts to firms doing business with Myanmar – the decision will be overturned by some distant global bureaucracy like the WTO. Even if 40 million Californians vote tomorrow to allow themselves to smoke a joint, the federal government will never permit it. And the economy is run almost entirely by an unaccountable oligarchy in Lower Manhattan that absolutely will not sanction any innovations in banking or debt forgiveness or anything else that might lessen its predatory influence.”
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-i-stopped-worrying-and-learned-to-love-the-ows-protests-20111110#ixzz1fPr97moV
And bobby, I don’t think that everyone shares your sentiment. Please see this diagram for details:
http://flowingdata.com/2011/11/18/public-opinion-of-the-occupy-movement/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/09/us/ows-grid.html
KAKDecember 2, 2011 at 11:45 am Ha ha ha ha ha….ok, so let’s get this straight: People don’t need to learn and they don’t need a place to live? There’s no “forcing” folks to enter into indebted relationships with lending institutions? Exactly where do you live cause I want to move there, Pat. Is there really a land where food grows free on trees, everyone has a roof over their head, and education is free? I’m quitting as much as possible. You won’t find me buying anything that I can avoid buying from these slick advertisers. I’m smarter than that. And perhaps I can snobbishly look down my nose at the foolish among you who drive new cars, purchase new clothes, and “gasp” own a cell phone that you’ve “upgraded” recently. I’ll adopt this attitude that I KNOW better than to engage in your economic system. Maybe my elitist attitude will catch on? Maybe I’ll be “the new cool” and everyone will want to be like me. Suddenly…there won’t be a need for your advertising and marketing because no one will care. We’ll all be so smart and savvy that we won’t buy into your silly manipulations. Ah. I can just see that world. It’s a lovely place. Too bad I have to live here where we are taunted to want and then critiqued for going into debt. But you know what they say about dogs…don’t wave the food too close to their mouth…they might bite! Typical response I guess from someone who wishes to retain some sort of “victim” status. No, there’s no land where housing or education is absolutely free. But for generations, Americans have somehow seemed to find a way to buy a house, or get higher education, without bitching about having to repay the debts they incurred. You want to know how? Because they bought houses that were within their ability to pay off the debt they undertook. They didn’t buy a “McMansion”, they bought a lower priced property. And then, after a few years of paying for it, and building equity in it… Read more »
I’m ambivalent about the Occupy movement, particularly the local chapter.
I’ve posted on my blog about the incredible amount of processing that Occupy Dayton seems to entail. I had to give Allison a thumbs up on her comment about Occupy Dayton’s Facebook page being “so much better” than “train wreck tv” because she’s absolutely right — it’s difficult to tear one’s eyes away from the sniping in the comments on the OD FB page. Drama, drama, drama! Calling one other names (and using terms like “mangina” in comments!), and post after post and comment after comment about why people are leaving the group or rejoining the group or leaving the group again. Jesus H Christ!
However, then I see news stories like this one on the Raw Story, titled “Republican strategist ‘frightened to death’ by Occupy movement,” in which Republican strategist Frank Luntz is quoted as saying:
While it is true that the Occupation movement is about a whole lot of processing, they do deserve credit for doing something that more mainstream progressives could not do, which is to take back some of the control of the political rhetoric from extreme conservative whackjobs. Because of the Occupation movement Americans are more aware of the gap between rich and poor, and Republicans will have a tougher (but unfortunately not impossible) job of trying to skew government policies further in favor of the rich on the backs of the poor.
But oh my God, I’d sooner stick a needle in my eye than sit through a couple hour-long General Assembly discussing whether local Occupiers should spend $850 on a tent to camp out all winter long on Dave Hall, err Solidarity, Plaza.
Well David, it should change, since they have created their own, “super-secret” FaceBook page for their little friends. I’m guessing so they have the ability to scoff at those idiots who work for a living, pay their bills, and get on with life instead of whining about how tough life is.
Pretty much anyone who didn’t know there was a gap between the rich and poor before now were living under a rock.
Well, I’ve been advised by numerous friends to disengage from this blog as they felt that I’m wasting my energy talking to people who aren’t interested in change. I have actually enjoyed them though.
But I think I’ve given you all about enough of my time and energy here. I thank you all for your interest in the Occupy movement. I encourage you to continue your search for truth and justice as I will mine. Our movement is composed of individuals with all of their quirks and challenges and as such we encounter problems and then muddle through. The GA process is slow and difficult but the great thing for us is that in the end, we KNOW we participated and our voices have been heard. I’m 41 and I have NEVER felt that way in our representative republic.
David Lauri is right. We’ve made a difference. We will continue to do so. We will change the rules and the way the game is played. Stay tuned and watch it happen.
Good day to you all.
KAK
Well, I’ve been advised by numerous friends to disengage from this blog as they felt that I’m wasting my energy talking to people who aren’t interested in change. I have actually enjoyed them though. Oh, like “occupy” has opted to do on FaceBook, go to a private site where everyone agrees with each other. IF the members of “occupy” truly sought to effect change, they’d challenge openly those who criticize the movement. Because the ONLY way you can bring a person around to your point of view is to engage them, and overwhelm them with the clarity of your argument, while pointing out the flaws in their point of view on any given issue. I’d wager the vast majority of those here are the “99%” your movement claims to represent. And, unlike the FaceBook page, where there were some who made statements that could be considered threats, who made statements that certainly WOULD be considered racist, sexist, or whatever, here the discussion has been I’d say fairly civil. Or at the minimum, a lot more civil than most any political discussion thread I’ve ever been a part of on-line, they can get down-right scary. The GA process is slow and difficult but the great thing for us is that in the end, we KNOW we participated and our voices have been heard. I’m 41 and I have NEVER felt that way in our representative republic. The videos I’ve seen of the GA’s put me so in mind of a video of a citizens group meeting from here in Dayton I watched a few years ago. The main issue at this meeting was providing cookies for some event in their part of the city, I can’t recall what part of town, and even if I did, I wouldn’t reveal it, for fear of embarrassing the attendees. But, the video was quite entertaining, as for the simple agenda item of providing cookies, with a total cost of right about $20.00, they bitched and complained for 2 hours, and still never came to a consensus. And I gained… Read more »
Why is everyone arguing over superfluous issues? Let’s talk about the important, substantive and fundamental differences that exist between the various points of view represented here. It is my guess that while kak and I both see ourselves as anarchists, her views are much more “mainstream” than are mine. That said, I don’t think anyone on this site can claim to be a bigger fan of capitalism than am I. It is my guess that those of you who are supporting capitalism have fundamental values that are closer to the occupy movement than you would like to realize. For most people it is a matter of degree. Public schools should exist but not making people pay back loans to the federal government for their education crosses some line. That line seems very blurry to me. The rationale for “free education” (education provided at the point of a gun on those funding it) is bad in all cases. Until a majority of Americans can understand and articulate the need to eliminate the socialism in our society we will continue to have people take that fundamental belief to its logical conclusion…”why shouldn’t I be able to use your stuff for my benefit without asking?” Let me sum up quickly. We teach them it is moral. They believe us. They tell us that what we have earned should be used at their discretion. We are angry they don’t understand private property and economics. Look in the mirror. It is we who have remained silent and allowed this. It is we who produce the wealth they want to spread. It is we who make this country work. I pay more in taxes every year than the average American makes in a year. I am not paying my fair share?! I am living off of you?! I am sick of this. I am sick of those who find outrage possible only once the fruits are ripe. Rip the ideological weeds out at the roots. What’s mine is mine. I am not living off of you. I pay for your existence. I pay for your schools… Read more »
Republicans will have a tougher (but unfortunately not impossible) job of trying to skew government policies further in favor of the rich on the backs of the poor. (David Lauri)
…yeah, but it won’t be difficult convincing the electorate that this administration has drove the economy in the ditch, spent like crack-hos at a rock house with a stolen Visa and ain’t got a clue what to do about it. Furthermore, to show our Amigoes to the south our love, the administration provided their Narcotrafficantes with enough firepower to cower the Mexican government. David Copperfield may have made the Statue of Liberty disappear, but Obama made about three million jobs vanish. And pissed away billions on Green job giveaways. And their only response is to propose new taxes and try to change the subject. Naw, it won’t be that tough, DL, not that tough ata all…
Ice…the Mic Check is a strategy of protest. It’s a direct action. It’s like carrying a sign. It’s like a “public service announcement” on TV. It’s performance art??? (KAK)
…but unlike a psa on the tube, the viewer can’t grab the channel selector and blast the Mic Checkers from view and mind. And signs can be carried on the sidewalk which disqualifies the aggrieved from trespassing laws. And did the shoppers know in advance they were going to be inconvenienced by impromptu guerilla theatre? Or to be subjected to a political diatribe in a non-political venue? Twas a time, KAK, when such an imposition was considered not only a violation of the social contract, but also downright rude…
And when the people at Moody’s and Standard and Poors totally subvert the entire global monetary system and throw us back into cave man days- when the biggest club is all that works, and nukes start going off all over the world as we slip into anarchy- you’ll all be aching for the days when all you had to complain about was the peaceful occupy movement.
When the “founding fathers” decided that “taxation without representation” wasn’t going to fly anymore- I doubt that if the internet existed and polling of so many people was possible- that they would have had a majority in support of revolution either.
Revolutions aren’t started by the silent majority folks.
We’ll see where this takes us- but, I for one, damn well know that Mike Turner doesn’t give a rats patootie about what is happening to me, you or any other taxpayer other than the ones who pay less in taxes and more in political payola.
We need a change.
Pat, I don’t think I agree with most of your politics, but you make some good points about the value of engaging with people with whom one disagrees and about the value and atmosphere of the comments sections on Esrati.com. Something the comments have here on Esrati.com that the OD FB page comments did not have (although OD now says they’ll abide by new rules there) is a moderator, in the person of none other than our host here, David Esrati. Without a moderator to stop name calling and personal attacks and even to change the occasional “f**k” into what he thinks is the more acceptable obscenity of “frak”–does anyone not know what the frak “frak” really means?–comments can descend quickly into anarchy. Now anarchy can mean “a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government” but more often it really means “a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority.” That first definition (1c on Merriam Webster) may be biased because of the interjection of “utopian” (impractically ideal) but I think it’s right–people just don’t play nicely enough together that everyone can enjoy complete freedom without their society or lack thereof descending into disorder. The OD FB comments gave us an interesting example of anarchy. “Anything goes” with everyone allowed to say anything quickly devolved into a place that wasn’t workable. Upstanding members of OD (and I mean that–people who do care about the greater good of the community and have given time and effort to try to make a difference) couldn’t help themselves and waded into the muck to throw mud (e.g., “your penis is small”) back at those they felt were attacking them. Anarchy doesn’t work, whether for a society that is an online discussion forum, a small local General Assembly, a city, a state or a whole country. And then there’s poor outraged anarchist Jesse, who wants to live in a world where “what’s his is his” and no one puts a gun to his head to pay for those damned public schools or… Read more »
Jesse complains:
“What’s mine is mine. I am not living off of you. I pay for your existence. I pay for your schools and have no kids. I pay for your unemployment and have never drawn a dime. I pay for your hospital stays and my own. I pay for your social security and I will never see a dime back.”
Such self-centered distortions.
Jesse, in the first place, if you have managed to live entirely without the benefits of civilization, then fine, what’s yours is yours. Otherwise, at least have enough of a clear mind to recognize that in a laissez-faire world you would in all likelihood be less prosperous, less free, or dead. Times of absolute monarchy were, in fact, times of absolute laissez-faire; no rules or regulations or constraints means that anyone who can grab enough power to rule is, in essence, the only person with a degree of freedom.
But even worse: you pay for MY schools? Jesse, when you need health care, do you not have a shred of gratitude for the public schools that taught your nurses how to read doctor’s orders and calculate dosage? You do not pay for my unemployment unless you were my employer–or didn’t you know who pays unemployment insurance? If I never paid into social security then I will collect none: to qualify I must post minimum earnings for a certain amount of time (been a while since I checked; I think it’s ten quarters).
Jesse, it’s OUR government, OUR schools, OUR safety net. That you and I have relied on it less than others is one of those “grace of God” situations.
I’ll bet Thanksgiving at your place is one big self-love fest as you express gratitude for your own divine self and deny that anyone else has anything to do with it.
@David Lauri, I agree, the discussions devolved into huge “big dick” contests on the Occupy FB page, but in my viewing of it, the occupy members threw the first brick-bat. So pretty much, they got to reap what they sowed. And I agree as well, here, we’re given pretty free rein by David Esrati. I don’t know David well, and he and I disagree for a large part on politics, but I feel blessed that he has the same attitude about political discussions that I do, we can disagree, but there is no need to become disagreeable to each other. We can continue until we come to the fact we CAN agree to disagree. Another quality of David I admire is, though he has considerable more higher education than I do, he’s classy enough to hold a discussion without “talking down” to his lesser educated opponent. And he follows the credo that I was taught is the true test of an educated person. That you should be able to discuss things with people of your own level of education without boring them, or to a person with minimal education without making them feel they are stupid. One of the favorite slams I see the occupy members throw is the line that their opponent is “ignorant.” Then they wish to play semantics, and say what they meant was the person didn’t research enough, that the person has failed to look at things objectively. I’d have more respect for anyone who uses such a term to just come out and say what they mean. If they’d simply say “you’re stupid, I’m smart, screw you.” Face it, there is no utopia, never has been, never will be. The simple fact that we’re humans, capable of great compassion when it suits us, capable of being heartless bastards when it suits us. There is always someone willing to exploit whatever edge they have to better their own lot. And claiming, or even thinking the occupy movement is/will be any such pipe dream is fallacy. We saw several cities go through the… Read more »
I disagree with Jesse on many points…but I am coming to his defense in this…Even though I’m supposed to be long gone as my boyfriend just scolded me!
But this article explains his perspective a bit I think?
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/For_Ourselves__The_Right_To_Be_Greedy__Theses_On_The_Practical_Necessity_Of_Demanding_Everything.html
And here they claim that conservatives tell their ladies what to do?
@Pat Offenberger- thank you.
You’ve summed up why I continue to write and host this site.
Yes, Pat, David E. has been very fair with me here, albeit I think I’m the only one he’s called an idiot, but that is part of his rules, and it made me sit back and think out my comments more thoroughly.
This is the longest thread of comments I’ve seen on this post / blog. I’m going to attempt to close it! But first I want to give kudos to Pat’s writing skills. You / he claim(s) you are not too educated but you must have paid attention in English class.
My closing remarks are: I’ll bet these Occupiers are going to be history real soon, just like the Tea Partiers!
End of post.
By their own words, 9 of the nearly 4,700 OD Facebook “Likers” participated in some kind of protest in the Oregon District last night. I won’t bother to do the math. One of those 9 has posted that based on the behaviors of the other protestors towards him, and the lack of any actual protest, he has withdrawn his support from OD. Another post says they are looking into filing a protective order against someone who verbally harassed them on their walk through the District. I like how they interpret the 1st Ammendment one way for their own actions, and another way for everyone else. They are their own worst enemy, and it’s just a matter of time until they totally self-implode. The words and actions of those who they have allowed to represent them, despite their claim that they have no leaders, ensure this. The private page where they discuss whatever they discuss is just a big circle-jerk where they tell each other how great they are, and how everyone else is a “troll”, all because they refuse to acknowledge that the majority of “the 99%” don’t want them to claim to be speaking for them.