Occupy Dayton IS the “Grande Illumination”
Sandy Gudorf is an overpaid tool of corporate America. As the president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership she is paid more than $100K a year to tax property owners and then give tax breaks to new businesses. She also hires cheap contract labor to do the job of cleaning downtown sidewalks as a way to sidestep standard employment practices.
Now, she also wants to limit free speech- because lighting a Christmas tree is now more important than free speech (never mind the separation of church and state). In the Dayton Daily News she claims that because she brings 30K people to the square and it’s a 39-year-old tradition- we shouldn’t be allowed to protest the giant inequities that have developed in our country- thanks to people like her who believe in corporate welfare more than in human welfare and dignity:
Occupy Dayton, the local Wall Street and establishment protest linked with other protests throughout the nation, is being asked to temporarily move from Courthouse Square downtown for the Nov. 25 Grande Illumination.
The request came Thursday from Sandy Gudorf, president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, the business group that organizes the holiday ceremonial Christmas tree-lighting and festivities. “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
via Occupy Dayton protest must relocate for Grande Illumination.
The question to ask Ms. Gudorf is how exactly she is going to enforce her personal ban on free speech- will people wearing Obama shirts be asked to leave the square? Or if the Klu Klux Klan shows up in their bedsheets? (she’ll quickly learn that arresting the KKK is impossible, it’s already been tested in the courts).
Gudorf is an idiot. By whining a few weeks before the event, she’s already begun to solidify the movement’s resolve to be there. I plan on being there wearing my sandwich board- and I’ll be damned if she, or any police officer is going to tell me I don’t have a right to be there.
The Occupy Movement’s real motivation is to enlighten the 99% of the wholesale illegal transfer of wealth though government-sponsored policies that have made our country a third world debtor nation on the brink of collapse. The Sandy Gudorfs of the world have helped banks take our homes, our jobs and destroy our standard of living.
In fact, one of the main reasons the “Grande Illumination” has grown in scale over the recent years is because it’s a free event- something nice people can do who can’t afford a Christmas tree or as many presents as they used to give thanks to the wizards of Wall Street and our sold-out politicians.
I urge you to join me in protesting with the Occupy movement on Nov. 25th at Courthouse Square.
As a shameless plug: my ad agency, The Next Wave has produced some stickers to show your support of the movement and is donating 20% of each sale to the local movement. Stickers are 99¢ each and available at: www.stickittothe1percent.com
[UPDATE]After a few days- Gudorf is now only asking for the tents to go – not the protesters- at least, that’s what I’m interpreting.
That’s an acceptable position – but- the protest can and should still go on.
@Shortwest Rick added this video to the discussion- well worth watching:
Looks like they are up-and-running at Dave Hall Plaza.
Good job, Occupiers! :)
Occupy Dayton’s decision to scale back their “demands” ( electricity and a permit vs. a countywide foreclosure moratorium) indicates the Sociology Department is listening to the the Law School. (bobby)
…hands in the air, this is a stick-up. We want all the money in the vault, but we’ll settle for those Hershey Bars next to the cash register…
Take a bath, get a job or be prepared to be pepper-sprayed! Congress are dumb as rocks, like most folks it seems, or stubborn and/or uneducated … :-(
Ice, you maybe didn’t read the whole article. Occupy Dayton was going to pay for the electricity. Characterizing it as a stick-up is at best uninformed.
Occupy Dayton’s decision to scale back their “demands” ( electricity and a permit vs. a countywide foreclosure moratorium) indicates the Sociology Department is listening to the the Law School. (bobby)
…the Soc department? The Law School? To hell with both of them. Get the entire psych department down there stat. And tell ’em to bring those white jackets and those pro-wrestler sized orderlies. And tell ’em they don’t have to be polite…
I want to believe that it is possible for humans to live, relatively peacefully, without corrupt, hierarchical governmental systems controlling their lives.(KAK)
…and to paraphrase Smoky Robinson, the Old Bandito seconds that emotion. But what has this hombre scratching his ever receding hairline are these sentiments from OWS types, who immediately and inevitably follow with a endless litany of government “remedies.” And the incoherence of protesting bailouts for banks while demanding an amnesty from student loan repayments strikes many as hypocritical. And OWS types are really slam dancing on quicksand with their planks on forced veganism. They will get the turkey drumstick from the Old Bandito hands when they pry his cold and lifeless fingers off of it…
Ice, Robert, Mamma,
I am thinking about going to occupy and talking to some of the lost souls sometime next week. I am going to read from Economics in One Lesson and Man, Economy and State while there. Any interest in joining or any other suggestions for my filibuster?
Jesse- suggestion–while reading your books, be smoking a big doobie and see if the cops pepper spray you! This rally is about as pointless, or useless as the black Friday rush!
“And OWS types are really slam dancing on quicksand with their planks on forced veganism. They will get the turkey drumstick from the Old Bandito hands when they pry his cold and lifeless fingers off of it…”
Nice poetry, Bandito! I like..
And I eat animals. I’m persickity about what animals and how and where they are raised…but I eat them. OWS – or at least OD – is a place for many ideas, perspectives and plans for progress. The group is committed to the process of horizontal democracy and consensus building. This part is fantastic to me.
As for student loans…well, I straddle the line on that issue. Two wrongs do not make a right…and we all get this…but when do you stand up and say, “Screw this…I’m done playing your game!”? Why should the elite banking institutions be forgiven their debts but individuals not? Why should GE not pay a penny in taxes last year but a first generation college student be strapped for life with debt to his educators?
I work in higher education and I’m dumbfounded at how schools continue to hire contingent faculty, raise tuition, and enhance facilities to Club Med standards. This bubble is going to burst just as the housing market did…and as medicine is currently.
@Jesse…there’s many more economics texts than you are perhaps aware of. As an economic anthropologist, may I suggest the following resources on economic theory and understanding:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/22/5086/?feed=rss_home
http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/04/how-ronald-reagan-and-alan-greenspan-pulled-off-the-greatest-fraud-ever-perpetrated-against-the-american-people/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1933633867/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=869207715&ref=pd_sl_6clqyunhy3_b
http://wiego.org/
http://viacampesina.org/en/
@KAK, who took out the college loans? Did someone hold a gun to their heads and force them to sign the papers? It’s OK in your mind for people to create debt and then just say “screw it?”
It remains a fact that financial institutions stuck with bad loans end up recouping as much of the cost as they can from other customers, through higher fees for services.
Somehow you missed GM getting bailed out, and getting their debts written off, but you’re happy to focus on GE. It is a fact, corporations end up paying their taxes by passing along the costs to their customers. It seems GE has a kind of special relationship with the Obama administration as well.
You’re so focused on the sins of Republicans, why aren’t you equally as pissed at the actions of Democrats that DID lead to the mortgage crisis?
I think a lot of other folks have done exactly what you describe here…the banks and Wall Street as well as GM have taken money from the government and they aren’t paying it back. Why should they be able to do so and leave individuals stuck indebted for education?
I don’t pardon any industries here. I just used GE as an example in my discussion. GM is clearly just as complicit in the problems we face today.
I am not a democrat. I don’t pardon anyone. I think our system is corrupt, defunct, and headed for collapse. Don’t misunderstand me here…I’m not FOR any candidates. I think representative democracy cannot work in our current global economic system. You can’t keep money out of politics as our system stands now. And this is the root problem.
The Democrats participated in the mortgage crisis for certain. In particular, those who were in cahoots with banking institutions. Read this article to better understand what happened in 2007-2008: http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml
I don’t pardon any industries here. I just used GE as an example in my discussion. (KAK)
…yet it has been established that though GE is a bunch of tax deadbeats, they broke neither criminal nor IRS law. You may, dear KAK, direct your anger toward the guy residing at 1800 Pennsylvania Avenue. GE CEO Jeff Immelt is so far up one of the President’s orifices that every time Obama opens his mouth a light bulb (CFL, natch) comes on. Besides, AKA, corporations paying taxes, as Pat Offenberger has already pointed out, is a fiction. Have you studied the desirability of the flat or fair tax, KAK? You may find it to your liking…
Why should (the Government) leave individuals stuck indebted for education? (KAK)
…uh, because they entered a voluntary agreement to do so? The Old Bandito knows the pain and inconvenience of keeping such promises as contracts and wedding vows, but there is a sentiment, which the OWS crowd seems unable to fathom, that such agreements are almost sacrosanct. And who, KAK, decides which contracts are valid and which are null and void? If ya’ really wanna see our economy collapse in a hot flash, let that sentiment take hold…
@KAK your link isn’t working. Could you please try again.
As to arguing with the Libertarians- give it up.
The flat tax may be their holy grail- but it won’t solve a damn thing as long as we still hold auctions instead of elections- and as long as the 1% are still allowed to gamble at the Wall Street Casino.
Sorry. Does it work now? http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/22/5086/
It is an article by Steve Denning for Forbes Magazine entitled:
Lest We Forget: Why We Had A Financial Crisis
Hey Ice, since you are the Old Bandito, are you living in America legally?
I’d say a quarter of what the CIA and the US Government are involved in is illegal, i.e., protecting the poppy fields of Afghanistan! The FBI selling guns to drug lords. CIA planes used for drug smuggling. Big bankers doing cocaine.
OK, Bandito, let’s leave the loans alone. I’ll concede…the students should pay back every penny of their loans, ok?
But so should everyone else. Everyone. Keep it fair. Hold all of the organizations that were bailed out accountable for the monies they received.
If corporations are “people”, why aren’t they paying taxes?
“If ya’ really wanna see our economy collapse in a hot flash, let that sentiment take hold…”
Guess what? It’s already collapsed. Many of you just don’t see this…
Thanks- great article- well worth reading.
The derivatives market and the legalization of bank gambling is the real root- but, somehow -we’ve forgotten there is a difference between real money and monopoly money.
In Monopoly- the game ends- when one person has all the money and all the property- in the real world- war begins.
The Problem is, the US Government won’t pay back for all the mistakes they have made: faulty Medicare and Medicaid claims, faulty welfare and Worker’s Compensation scams, erroneous and egregious hand outs all over the world!
Esrati & KAK…thanx….that Forbes article is a concise summation. Good link.
BTW, Occupy Dayton, based on their Facebook Page, had a not-so-black Friday…looks like some good press and good actions. Also noticed they added a big tent to their tent city.
It looked to me like any good they did by acting like somewhat adult people at the square was diminished by their behavior at Target & Wal Mart. Or, maybe you believe shouting out slogans, and belittling people is the way to win “hearts and minds.”
Myself, I don’t see it.
Monday morning at the County Building 99% – Hello. We are the permit committee of Occupy Dayton. The plaza is a little soggy, so we are here for a permit to occupy Courthouse Square. County Administrator – I see. How long do you plan to occupy? 99% – We plan to occupy until corporations and the one percent pay their fair share. We are the 99% CA – OK. We will note the duration of use on the application as indefinite. 99% – We will Occupy 24/7, camping on the square. CA – Could you occupy part time, say from 6AM until midnight? 99% Absolutely not. There is no such thing as part time hostage taking. CA Nor do kidnappers ask for a permit. What provisions have you made for sanitary facilities? 99% We will piss in a bucket…Or, we will have a meeting of the sanitary committee to present the use port-o-potties to the General Assembly for their approval. If the majority of our direct democracy exxperiment approve, we will kip the bucket CA The aesthetic of port-o-potties, long term, on the square isn’t very desirable. 99% We will convene a joint meeting of the art, education and sanitary committees. They will collectively work to cover the port-o-potties with political posters that express solidarity. Subject to the approval of the GA. Then, if you or anyone else tries to remove the port-o-potties we will file an action that our freedom of speech has been violated. CA I presume the port-o-potties will meet ADA standards. 99% Of course. They will be green and solar powered as well. We are the 99%. CA Will you need electric service? If so, who will be responsible for payment? Are you a 503c corporation? 99% YES. We need electricity. and we will pay for it. NO. Corporations are not people. Occupy Dayton is a horizontal democracy. CA You have advocated moratoriums on mortgage foreclosures and student loans. What happens if you decide electricity is a basic human right and declare a moratorium on paying electric bills? 99% If the energy, education, and finance committees meet and present an electric payment moratorium to the the GA that is… Read more »
As to arguing with the Libertarians (about the fair tax)- give it up. (David Esrati to KAK)
…so we can surmise from that statement that you have lifted yourself from the fog and now accept the practicality and wisdom of the fair tax? ‘Bout time, dear David, for reading posts alternating between your condemnation of the tax code and your advocacy of the same was gettin’ kinda’ schizophrenic. But better late than never, and we’re glad you’ve come around…
Hey Ice, since you are the Old Bandito, are you living in America legally? (gary)
…yeah, but you’re not the first to question the Old Bandito’s citizenship. Sidebar: Canadians generally think Americans, with the possible exception of some inhabitants of suburban Detroit, should face severe criminal penalties if they are found in possession of hockey skates. Canucks flatter themselves into the illusion that they and they alone can master the art of traversing the Tuuk blade. So if you can skate with the same competence as Canadians, they assume that you were born in some place called Moose Jaw or Medicine Hat. And the mistook the Old Bandito’s Ohio accent as a speech and mental defect…
Guess what? (The economy has) already collapsed. Many of you just don’t see this…(KAK)
…not even close, dear KAK. There is still food on the grocers’ shelves, gasoline at the pumps and cops on the street. The streets are relatively free of rioting and the bodies of the vulnerable are not piling up because of lack of meds or care. The gun shops are not being burglarized and debtors still accept your greenbacks. But in a worse-case scenario when the feces hits the oscillating device, listen for the shriek of the pampered, such as the gal who can’t get her nails done, followed by the screams of the dependent…
Bandito, they asked me if I was from Texas, and told me I have an accent. I assured them I did not have an accent, but they sure as hell did. I spend a lot of time up there, and you have to watch out. If they find a large enough area of even concrete, a hockey game breaks out. They even have “curling” schools. If there was ever a sport that I fail to understand the attraction of it, curling tops the list. But I guess it’s dandy training for a janitor job, eh? I’ve got hassled at the border up there a few times, one stands out for the most inane (and disgusting) questions a law enforcement officer ever posed to me. They searched my truck, and found I had a computer. The interrogation went like this: Customs Agent: “Oh, you have a computer, eh?” Me: “Yes sir.” CA: “What do you have on it?” Me: “Mapping software.” CA: “You got any porn on it?” Me: “Huh?’ CA: “Any kiddie porn?” Me: “No.” CA: “Any human/animal sex?” Me: “No, what kind of stuff are you guys into?” CA: “We’ll have to inspect it.” Me: “OK, that’s fine.” Two hours later, after they had taken my computer back into their office, it was returned to me, with the customs agent telling me that “You’re a pretty boring guy.” I took that as a compliment, considering their questions to me about what was on the hard drive. I was up there the day Obama took office, and happened to catch one of their TV political “talking heads” shows. In these pundit’s view, Obama was/is a extreme right-wing conservative. Kinda shows how far to the left some folks are up there. I do know when the Obama-care debate was going on, most everyone I talked to up there told me to urge our legislators to vote against the bill. So, maybe they’re more real world than we give them credit for. Or, they still want somewhere to go to get needed medical care paid… Read more »
One question I get regularly from the customs agents at the booth in Canada is: “What is your purpose in coming to Canada today?” Remember, I have driven up to the booth in a semi, with a van trailer. I just handed them my passport, and a Customs Invoice, which details the contents of my trailer, with the shipper in America listed. And the receiver in Canada listed as well. A full description of the contents of my trailer. The country of origin of the cargo, with the value of the load in US Dollars. I have to fight the urge to say: “Oh, just coming up to do some trout fishing, I hear it’s great up here.” And they have to quiz you on where you live and where you were born. While looking at a passport, with your picture, and all that information listed on it. Gee, wonder how many people get tripped up on remembering where they were born, or where they live? I delivered a load to a Canadian Military base earlier this year, they have civilian guards at the gate. But after the day shift leaves for the day, the gate is unguarded, and anyone can drive in and out as they please. I drove down the roads following my directions to the job site, and a car came towards me and stopped. A young Canadian Army soldier got out of the car, and asked if I needed help getting to where I was going. I showed him my map, and he told me it was “right down the road from where he was camping.” It turns out, he and his fellow soldiers were on field exercises. With all their tents and such pitched right out by their airfield. And they all had their private vehicles parked right beside their “encampment.” this dude had finished for the day, and was going out to get pizza. God, I wish the military had been that much fun when I was in! Pizza would have been SO much better than “C-rations” or… Read more »
I have never been so proud to state my alignment with the Libertarian party as I am today.
Additionally, speaking with some Canadian co-workers, I was informed that for a fee they can “upgrade” from the “free” Canadian socialist healthcare system to…get this…an “American-like” health care system. Yes, that’s an “upgrade”. I remain disappointed (and perplexed) that none of these people have figured out that their “free” healthcare system, which doesn’t include facilities built for free or healthcare providers that work for free, is anything but free.
From Canadian Perceptions of the Health Care System: A report to the Health Council of Canada, February 2007, p. 5:
and from p. 3 of the same report:
You’ll see concerns expressed in that report about timely access to health care and the sustainability of the system, but nonetheless a vast majority of Canadians support public health care in their country.
For a more recent survey than the 2007 study, see this article from 2010, “Canadians happier with health care system – poll,” which says:
So, yes, Allison and Pat can cite anecdotal evidence that there are some Canadians who don’t like the Canadian health care system, but can they or anyone else cite any actual evidence that a majority of Canadians want to disband it?
David Lauri, where in my post do I mention or even allude to disbanding the Canadian healthcare system? I didn’t even claim that my Canadian colleagues were unhappy with their system.
“Why We Occupy:”
Dayton ranks #9 in the nation for concentrated poverty. The center city ranks #4 in growth in conecntrated poverty for 2000-2009, a nearly 25% increase.
Source:
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2011/1103_poverty_kneebone_nadeau_berube.aspx
“Why We Occupy:”
Job Creation is Too Slow:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hiring-in-us-likely-was-slow-in-october-2011-11-03?dist=afterbell
US ranks low in social justice:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/10/27/social-justice_n_1035363.html
Recession is over, but incomes keep falling:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/us/recession-officially-over-us-incomes-kept-falling.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1322528466-1Y8YzZAFb3WV9Rcob6xzyg
Taking it local, all these dysfunctions play out in our metropolitan area, having ramifications for the health of regional economy. Sucking money out of the local economy has the fallout you see around you…urban decline, increasing poverty, socioeconomic dysfunctions. The chickens all come home to roost right here, in the Miami Valley.
There can be no discussion of of poverty without addressing the effect of out of wedlock births and single parent households.
The next time one of you complains about students wanting to pass on paying back their loans…take a look at this article and tell me that this is “fair” too…
Take note: This comes from Bloomberg…clearly not a crazy liberal slanted news source.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html
“Saved by the bailout, bankers lobbied against government regulations, a job made easier by the Fed, which never disclosed the details of the rescue to lawmakers even as Congress doled out more money and debated new rules aimed at preventing the next collapse.”
Looks like the endgame for Occupy Dayton, at least as a physical 24/7 presence in public spaces. http://m.daytondailynews.com/dayton/db_101693/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=taTqBNo6&detailindex=2&pn=0&ps=4 Earlier, representatives of the city of Dayton and Montgomery County hand-delivered notices to Occupy Dayton activists informing them that camping would no longer be permitted at Courthouse Square or Dave Hall Plaza. “Basically, we got eviction notices to vacate the property from the county and the city,” Johnathon Gallienne, an Occupy Dayton media committee member said. “They’re telling us if we don’t move, there will be consequences.” I guess, for me, the take-away from all this is that there are a few progressive people left in Dayton wiling to protest the sorry state of affairs this community and country are in. More than I expected, to be honest, given what a dreary right wing cesspool this community is (in my experience of it). And it also shows the dishonesty of local government, where they say one thing and do another. I now sort of “get” what Esrati was blogging about for all these years, after seeing how the County was “OK” with OD being on the square, that OD honored the request to temporarily relocate, and now the County came back with this ex-post-facto rule to ban camping AND subject protest signs to regulation (which could really be a 1st amendement issue if enforced selectively). Yet they table this new ordnance or policy. Then the city gives them an eviction order from Dave Hall Plaza. You have to wonder about the decision making process here. I should note that in Syracuse and Albany the Occupiers have the support of their mayors. In Rochester the mayor actually agreed to let the Occupiers camp out (after first opposing this), and so far no issues in Buffalo. Same in Portland Maine. And in Louisville the mayor issued a statement in support, the Occupiers have a permit to occupy their space, AND the police chief gave them his cell phone number for them to call him if there are problems. So, something that is do-able elsewhere isnt here due to lack of support from local government. But… Read more »
I read the links you posted about the state of our local economy, poverty, etc.; I like the way you think. It looks like status quo for Dayton and Montgomery County. It is too bad our local government can’t be more creative and work with OD in a positive way.
Just because liberal leaders in other cities publically support the movement, it doesn’t mean our leaders need to. Remember what your mother always said about such examples: “And if your friends wanted to jump off a cliff, would you too?”
I read through the FaceBook page a while ago, and some there advocate going to commission meeting and doing their childish “MicChecks.” I encourage them to do so, then they will get a chance to “occupy” a cell. It’s all good, at least when they get their de-lousing treatment, they’d get a bath.
If (Canadians) find a large enough area of even concrete, a hockey game breaks out. (Pat Offenberger)
…good to hear, Pat. There is still hope for humanity…
I have to fight the urge to (Canadian Border Agents): “Oh, just coming up to do some trout fishing, I hear it’s great up here.” (Pat Offenberger)
…and that is true dear Pat, especially brown trout. The Old Bandito’s secret spot, which he would reveal only under torture involving a blow-torch, is a twenty minute drive from and in sight of Detroit’s Rensaissance Center. A few Labor Days back, the Old Bandito was traveling from Leamington to Windsor when he encountered a RCMP roadblock. The Mountie approached the Bandito’s van and asked him “want to donate to Jerry’s Kids?” They do some things differently there. Like spraying water on their sidewalks on cold days for the benefit of skaters. Taking his honeymoon in suburban Toronto, the new Mrs. Bandito noticed there was no tomato by-product to put on her fries. Told her that they put vinegar on their taters up there. The waitress then asked if everything was OK. “My wife is from Dayton, Ohio” the Old Bandito told the waitress. “I’ll go get some ketchup” the waitress responded…
I should note that in Syracuse and Albany the Occupiers have the support of their mayors. (J Dziwulski)
…so I second the motion we send all our occupiers to either one of those sympathetic cities. Suppose we’ll have to pass the hat to get Greyhound tickets, so put the Old Bandito down for a ten-spot…
It is too bad our local government can’t be more creative and work with OD in a positive way. (Cathy Mong)
…why should they treat trespassers in a positive way? Not their job. Arrest miscreants, put out fires and make sure the trash is picked up; that’s their function…
It is too bad our local government can’t be more creative and work with OD in a positive way. – Cathy Mong
Check out this YouTube video. Is this the kind of behavior that should be rewarded with cooperation from local government? These people are trespassing on PRIVATE property, trying to use their mob-mentality intimidation techniques on the shoppers. Nice stuff.
I do love how they’re chastising the shoppers for buying products from corporations that don’t pay taxes? Since they’re in Wal-Mart and Target, one would assume that they’re saying that Wal-Mart and Target don’t pay taxes. Where did they come up with that little gem? I could go on and on about how uninformed these people truly are but I really need to get back to work.
While looking for the above video on YouTube, I did finally figure out why David Esrati loves this group so much. He finally found an audience that will applaud when he speaks and doesn’t limit him to three minutes.
Personally, I’m enjoying David Sparks tutorial to OD about Dayton’s City Manager form of government. For a group that considers themselves the political geniuses of our time, that little gem seems to have escaped them. Well, that and the Occupier from Beavercreek who swore that Gary Leitzell has lost his vote. Do they really not know how this works?
I’m sure we can count on them to choose their most aggressive, confrontational members to represent them with the Commissioners – and as a result hasten the end of this mockery. In their own words, “God bless them”.
Aww Allison…what’s with all the hate? We aren’t geniuses…just passionate, compassionate, dedicated folks who want to see change in this town for the benefit of all.
Mic checks are intended to shock folks who are worshiping at the alter of consumerism into a possible realization of what their pursuit of the almighty bargain really means.
Being against Occupy doesn’t mean you are “for” anything does it? I mean, what Occupy stands for is a revamping of our system where there get to be more players and commerce is conducted in a fair, equitable fashion. If this is so offensive to any of you, I wonder what joy you get from the model we currently have?
We occupy public places without a permit for a reson. You see, this is what PUBLICLY OWNED property is all about…multiple users at once…working together to find common ground. Our point in occupying is to position ourselves in public places so as to call attention to many things…one of these things is the fact that there is very little PUBLIC anything these days…everything is parceled out and utilized for the purpose of profiteering on the part of a select few. I hope this explains what we are doing better….
Kak – It is useless arguing with people who are fundamentalists (and yes many of you libertarian types are fundamentalists). Even when presented with sound logic and reasoning there is no inner voice present saying “hey… maybe there is a point to this even if I don’t agree with all of it”. Hence the mean spirited nature of many of these posts, and a total lack of addressing the many valid points OWS makes… or really anything that falls outside of what they perceive OWS and OD are all about (hippies, vagrancy, socialism, etc.). They don’t want to hear about “a better world for all” just a better world for themselves, or at least a better two minutes walking or driving through downtown.
Is this the longest running back and forth ever on Esrati.com? If nothing else OWS has spurred a lot of talk about things far more important than your fave TV program or the Kardashian’s. And that’s a GREAT thing… even if some people can’t see beyond their own noses.
also… as a clarifier… there are many aspects of the libertarian agenda I agree with, but a ton that I don’t. I will never adopt a “party” or “title” for myself that can encompass and entire worldview, because for me none of them do, and I feel a little sorry for those that do, because you’ve instantly cut yourself off from a whole host of other ideas that you may have previously been open to.
“Mic checks are intended to shock folks who are worshiping at the alter of consumerism into a possible realization of what their pursuit of the almighty bargain really means.” Yep, I’m sure plenty of people were shocked when you all started yelling in Target and WalMart on Friday morning. I’m sure that you probably scared the shit out of some little kids and some old people. You guys are a class act. And, KAK, PLEASE tell me what the “pursuit of the almighty bargain” REALLY means. “We occupy public places without a permit for a reson. You see, this is what PUBLICLY OWNED property is all about…multiple users at once” So, Wal-Mart and Target are publicly owned??? Since when? I’ve got news for you, KAK – That is PRIVATE PROPERTY you were occupying, just as the park that those idiots in NYC are occupying is PRIVATELY OWNED. If you want to hang out at Courthouse Square or Dave Hall Plaza, knock yourselves out. Those are public properties and as long as you’re not interfering with other people that want to enjoy themselves and hang out at the square, go right ahead. I even support not having to get a permit as long as no other group has to get a permit either. But as soon as you “occupy” private property and disrupt business, you’re stepping over the line. That tactic is pretty typical of what I’ve read about in other cities though. I believe it was Oakland where many of the street food vendors were initially GIVING the occupiers free food from their carts. After this drug on for a couple of weeks, the vendors could no longer afford to do this and the free food stopped. Many of them then found their food carts vandalized. “We aren’t geniuses” THAT has to be the understatement of the year!! I have never seen such a collection of uninformed people spouting slogans and nonsense “facts.” I especially got a kick out something that you said early in this thread. I’m paraphrasing since I don’t want to go back through… Read more »
It seems funny to me that because we don’t agree with you we are “fundamentalists”. It seems to me that arguing the fundamentals would be the best way to bridge this gap. Clearly the argument is deeper than it is superficial. Bringing up separate examples of issues on which we will surely disagree isn’t valuable. Until we understand the fundamental values of the individuals supporting various ideas, we will get nowhere.
I acknowledge that I have a fundamental set of guiding principles that allow me to understand the world. The funny thing is that you don’t seem to acknowledge that you do too. If you could disprove my fundamental understanding of the world, then I will modify my central belief. Until then, stop acting like libertarians are mean and don’t understand the goal of “a better world for all”. That is intellectually dishonest and lazy. We want a better world. We disagree on the means of getting to that goal.
We believe that freedom and liberty allow people the best chance of achieving that goal. Statistics seem to prove that we are correct. More freedom = better standards of living. This is true across the globe and throughout history.
People don’t escape from free countries into highly regulated countries, the tide runs the other way.
Let’s talk about fundamental values. Let’s talk about natural rights and the role of government. Let’s talk about the source of money and the validity of the Fed. Let’s talk about fundamentals and stop discussing only the superficial.
From Wiki
Fundamentalism is strict adherence to specific theological doctrines usually understood as a reaction against Modernist theology.
If you believe that politics is basically modern theology then, yes, many of you who proclaim yourselves adherants to this, that or the other are just this, fundamentalists. I do have some fundamental beliefs but I am not a fundamentalist nor would I pigeonhole myself into belonging to a particular group… OWS included, though I agree with many of their points and some those of the Libertarian persuasion. How would I know though if I shut myself off from other opinions by fundamentally adhering to a specific political doctrine? It is worthless arguing with you, as demonstrated once again by the petty retorts and misunderstandings (again and again and again) of the two posts above.
Bubba – I believe you are referencing my own point about direct democracy, and yes, I am aware that our founding fathers originally intended it to be only on a local level, as it was for only a short while… but we don’t even have that anymore, or anything like it. I’d like to see a return to it at the local level as a start but eventually for it to grow nationally (sorry if I wasn’t more specific in the first place, I made an incorrect assumption that readers would understand that, but it’s not like you haven’t made a ton of incorrect assumptions about the protestors). With proper education (see my post a page backward), the internet, mail in voting, etc., it is a possibility. Feel free to call me an idiot or “terribly uninformed.” I know it’s easier that way.
Bubba, you misrepresent so much of what I say here and obviously misunderstand so many of my earlier statements that I can’t even begin to take the time to correct you.
Suffice it to say: I understand that a mic check at a Walmart is not a public place…I was referencing Dave Hall and CHS..I’m fully aware we are and never have been a direct democracy, we are a representative republic, of this I am well aware. Any “return” I spoke of was a return of power to the hands of the people rather than corporate interests.
Have you ever considered that really everything you think is PRIVATE is in fact NOT. It’s all a game. The rules are just like rules in Scrabble. We’ve played by yours for a long time…now we are working toward establishing a new set. Read the history of money and debt as I’ve listed above in David Graeber’s “Debt: The First 5000 Years” and school yourself in the history of exchange among human populations.
Keep drawing the lines and we’ll keep stepping over them.
“And, KAK, PLEASE tell me what the “pursuit of the almighty bargain” REALLY means.”
In our society, consumers are duped into thinking that they are bettering their own lives by purchasing discounted items produced in non-Western countries by slave labor (or child labor but I guess you aren’t worried about these children being frightened, eh?). The reality is, they are contributing to their own enslavement. Watch some George Carlin or some Bill Hicks if you need the Readers Digest version of what I’m saying…plenty of folks are aware of this. Those in power want all of us to be drugged up on pharmaceuticals or the buzz of consumption in order to keep us buying their cheap crap where the profit margin benefits them and only them.
A truly sustainable economic system is rooted in local enterprise where local production and local distribution are favored. This permits communities to regulate their own industry and prevent exploitation of workers. Walmart and Target are classic examples of where this DOES NOT happen. This is why we mic check there.
I believe that this should answer your question that you so politely asked me to address.
I’m a little disappointed in myself that I’ve been sucked back into this b.s. Anyone wanna discuss politics over a beer sometime? I’m sure we wouldn’t be calling each other names then and would probably find stuff to agree on.
I thought my post on how much do 3 stitches cost was the highest- but it only has 70 comments: http://esrati.com/how-much-do-3-stitches-cost/1192/
Does anyone remember any other spirited conversations here with more comments?
Dan, Sure! As a matter of fact, my boyfriend is the beer guy at Arrow of Centerville. He hosts a fantastic beer tasting every Friday from 5 to 7. I’m usually there. Come join in! That goes for everyone!
KAK,
You want to have an economics discussion with me? I love it. Let’s do this thing.
I have reviewed all of the suggested reading and would love to discuss specific points. In order to make it more fair, I will let you pick those points on which you think I am derelict.
Let me first establish my point of view. Freedom works best and deregulating is great, but you have to deregulate everything because cherry picking based on lobbying doesn’t work. It provides gaps in the market of which the vast majority of citizens are unaware. It is the march toward fascism that both lobbied deregulation and regulation perpetuates. Having placed significant resources into the coffers of the government, we have an expectation that they will protect our interests and property rights. They fail to protect our interests because they are economically inept or are corrupt.
An additional note, my education was not under an Austrian and I found it only after receiving my formal economics education. That education was conducted by a range of professors from Marxists to Chicago school advocates. I am well aware of the literature supporting those positions and a wide variety of others. Insulting my knowledge of the subject is not necessary.