Occupy Dayton IS the “Grande Illumination”
Sandy Gudorf is an overpaid tool of corporate America. As the president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership she is paid more than $100K a year to tax property owners and then give tax breaks to new businesses. She also hires cheap contract labor to do the job of cleaning downtown sidewalks as a way to sidestep standard employment practices.
Now, she also wants to limit free speech- because lighting a Christmas tree is now more important than free speech (never mind the separation of church and state). In the Dayton Daily News she claims that because she brings 30K people to the square and it’s a 39-year-old tradition- we shouldn’t be allowed to protest the giant inequities that have developed in our country- thanks to people like her who believe in corporate welfare more than in human welfare and dignity:
Occupy Dayton, the local Wall Street and establishment protest linked with other protests throughout the nation, is being asked to temporarily move from Courthouse Square downtown for the Nov. 25 Grande Illumination.
The request came Thursday from Sandy Gudorf, president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, the business group that organizes the holiday ceremonial Christmas tree-lighting and festivities. “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
via Occupy Dayton protest must relocate for Grande Illumination.
The question to ask Ms. Gudorf is how exactly she is going to enforce her personal ban on free speech- will people wearing Obama shirts be asked to leave the square? Or if the Klu Klux Klan shows up in their bedsheets? (she’ll quickly learn that arresting the KKK is impossible, it’s already been tested in the courts).
Gudorf is an idiot. By whining a few weeks before the event, she’s already begun to solidify the movement’s resolve to be there. I plan on being there wearing my sandwich board- and I’ll be damned if she, or any police officer is going to tell me I don’t have a right to be there.
The Occupy Movement’s real motivation is to enlighten the 99% of the wholesale illegal transfer of wealth though government-sponsored policies that have made our country a third world debtor nation on the brink of collapse. The Sandy Gudorfs of the world have helped banks take our homes, our jobs and destroy our standard of living.
In fact, one of the main reasons the “Grande Illumination” has grown in scale over the recent years is because it’s a free event- something nice people can do who can’t afford a Christmas tree or as many presents as they used to give thanks to the wizards of Wall Street and our sold-out politicians.
I urge you to join me in protesting with the Occupy movement on Nov. 25th at Courthouse Square.
As a shameless plug: my ad agency, The Next Wave has produced some stickers to show your support of the movement and is donating 20% of each sale to the local movement. Stickers are 99¢ each and available at: www.stickittothe1percent.com
[UPDATE]After a few days- Gudorf is now only asking for the tents to go – not the protesters- at least, that’s what I’m interpreting.
That’s an acceptable position – but- the protest can and should still go on.
@Shortwest Rick added this video to the discussion- well worth watching:
David L. You have heard this before but here we go again. I went to a public school until I was 11. I never did homework or put forth any effort and received nothing but A’s. When a girl in my 6th grade class became pregnant, my parents thought that perhaps I needed a different environment in which to develop. It took me almost 2 years to catch-up to the private school children. I learned how to study and do homework. I learned what learning really was. I am so thankful that my parents made that choice. I don’t say that I want public education eliminated because I think it will make people worse. I want it eliminated because the evidence is clear that people (including the children) will be better served if it is eliminated. We have discussed this in the past and my points made in those instances still stand. The most important of those, is that we (as a society) have tried to convince people that graduation from a public high school means you have the skills to maintain your existence and provide value for our society. In reality, it often means that you can’t read or do basic math. Those people who have been forced to spend 13 years in public schools are often unable to provide enough value to society to support their own existence. That is for the 70% of people who stay in school! Those who drop out are often so disillusioned that they result to illegal means for maintaining their person. We damn these kids to educational purgatory and tell them it is “their only way out.” Truddick, You say that I live in civilization. It is easy to understand that you think that the only form of civilization is that provided by the State. It is what everyone is taught in State schools. Let’s investigate that assertion. If you accept the definition of Civilization as: “An advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry and government has been reached.” Then of course you believe that civilization is dependent on… Read more »
By their own words, 9 of the nearly 4,700 OD Facebook “Likers” participated in some kind of protest in the Oregon District last night.
On FB, about 16 said they were “attending” and one “maybe”. They ended with about 9. So about half the people who said they were going to show showed. Sounds about right.
BTW, nice-write up in the Dayton Daily News:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/occupy-dayton-endures-as-other-camps-dismantled-across-nation-1293827.html
Gary, I had a journalism teacher that no matter how well I felt I had written an article, I got it back looking like a red pencil had bled all over the page. With the “usual” retort of “YOU CAN DO BETTER!”
I wrote nearly all the content for our neighborhood newsletter while I was the neighborhood president, and continue to write articles for our church newsletter. And I still remain having the same feeling about any of my efforts, I always feel they’re not worthy of even printing out, let alone published.
But I thank you for the kudos!
Maybe this cold and wet, dreary weather will knock some sense into the tent people, or they can stand out in the rain and take a shower, even pee in their pants as far as I care. I understand what they are doing; I wonder how much education they have? They’d have a better chance at or of success if they’d write their Congressmen, that is, if they can write well–that’s what spellcheckers are for, if you can afford one.
Damn, we are onto another page with these 200+ comments, that does say a lot though doesn’t it. Shall I post my resume’ here to try and find work, nevermind, I don’t have my Doctorate’s yet.
There’s a critical article by James Panero in The New Criterion titled “Commune plus one: On Occupy Wall Street & the legacy of the Paris Commune” that relates the Occupy Wall Street movement to the Paris Commune of 1871. From the article:
and:
Panero’s take on OWS is that “the history of idealistic occupations suggests this will also end poorly, with a polarized public and the movement collapsing in ruin.” The part about a polarized public wasn’t, I think, too difficult a prediction to make, because the American public was polarized before OWS. The 200+ comments on this thread about Occupy Dayton (and the many comments on blogs around the country about other Occupation groups and on the article on the New Criterion site) reflect that polarization. Whether he’s right about the movement collapsing in ruins remains to be seen.
That’s an interesting parallel, btw the Commune and the Occupy movement, and yeah there is that romantic revolutionary aspect to both of those. The New Critereon is sort of neocon, though.
What the movement could be is a way to organize reformist/progressive people in places where they are sort of isolated, like here in Dayton. There is a big theatrical, propaganda-of-the-deed aspect to this movement, maybe more like ACT-UP (for a recent historical parallel), but it could go beyond that the way ACT-UP led to some specific practical things (think of the Treatment Action Group, which was an ACT-UP spin-off.
BTW, apparenlty the campers went and camped out at a vacant house or building in West Dayton somewhere, were arressted, and are now in jail.
Thus endeth Occupy Dayton. Looks like they go out with a bit of drama. But at least someone was willing to actually occupy this dying city. As Esrati, and perhaps others of you, know from my other activities online my “issue” is urban abandonment and the destruction of Daytons urban fabric, so I appreciate the symbolism of what the Occupiers did today.
And there is a precedent to this in NYC, in the East Village/Tompkins Square area, where people squatted in vacant buildings, building a community of sorts as well as keeping the neighborhood from further deterioration. There was a big cultural aspect to this as well (fictionalized in “Rent”, but also discussed in the work of Sarah Schulman)
Not saying thats what this was all about, but one can appreciate this on-the-fly approach to occupying derelict spaces and cities. Something similar is happening right now up in Detroit.
So, interesting times we live in, no?
Occupy Dayton hath not endeth, Jeffery.
We have simply hit a bump in the road. The folks dedicated to this movement are going to keep on going.
And as much as we are criticized for, um, everything from infighting to not have a clear idea of what we are doing to destroying grass and smelling bad thus needing a shower, I’m proud of us for uniting again and again after facing adversity and continuing to fight the oppression we are all subject to.
It’s been a most interesting and empowering experiment in human possibility for me. I only wish anyone watching us from the outside had as exciting and interesting a “family” as we do. Sure, an entire reality TV series could only attempt to come close to the drama we have entertained…but we carry on.
Happy Holidays…off to the press meeting.
Jesse, I just saw something that made me think of your “I am an anarcho-capitalist” comments on this thread, namely a blog post by Andrew Sullivan about “Libertarian Dubstep.” Sullivan links to a YouTube that’s apparently making the Libertarian rounds, a music video by Porter Robinson titled “The State.” I couldn’t watch much of it because I couldn’t stand it, neither the music nor the point it’s trying to make, but I figured you might have heard of it and might like it.
Liz Ohanesian, the LA Weekly writer whose profile of Porter Robinson and his video Sullivan links to, says “It’s fair to say that most political nerds don’t know what dubstep is.” She’s right. I had no clue, but I’m not a fan now that I do know. It makes my ears bleed.
The part of Ohanesian’s interview with Robinson that Sullivan chooses to highlight is this. Sullivan says, “The brief interview with Robinson may temper your excitement,” and then quotes Robinson (though he could be quoting you, too, Jesse):
So yeah, if you want to hear some phrases from a Mises audiobook dubbed over heavy electronic dance music while an anarchist hero shoots up the statist enemies of liberty and freedom, check out Robinson’s YouTube, if you haven’t seen it already.
Time’s person of the year: The Protestor! Hahahahahahaha. Time will tell how the Mideast equivalent of “hope and change” works out. And in the US, if only those of us dullards who go to work every day and repay our loans could have the same impact on positive societal change as the Occupy protestors have, maybe we will become a person of the year.
How many decades has it been since anyone actually saw or read a copy of Time Magazine? LOL
@ Mark – Good job marginalizing the efforts of those around the globe who died to exact change in their own countries. You know the article isn’t about Occupy Wall Street… it’s only mentioned briefly within the context of the larger global protest movements… or did you not actually read it? The cover is a picture of a middle eastern Muslim woman… not some white dude with a Guy Fawkes mask on.
I protest, repay my loans, go to school, and work full time… so what is your point exactly?
Time is still one of the top 10 magazines in the country… I pick it up whenever I go to the doctor. Also YOU were the person of the year in 2006.
The author of the Time article writes:
“To me, the mainstream Islamist parties in Egypt and Tunisia don’t appear much more fanatically religious than, say, Pat Robertson–esque Evangelicals in the U.S., and unlike the Republican hard-liners, they sound committed to a national consensus that includes secular liberals.”
But he does sound a few warning notes:
“And the secular revolutionaries remain hopeful that they will not turn out to have been useful idiots to new oppressors. . . Even Tunis University professor Dalenda Largueche, a feminist who could barely contain her horror at ascendant Islamism when we spoke, can eke out some hope. “They want to change Tunisia according to their vision,” she says, “but Tunisia will change them.” The secularists have a founding-fathers-and-mothers faith in freedom and democracy that is stirring: there’s no going back to tyranny, they’re sure.”
Like I said, time will tell how well the hope and change of Tunisian and Egyptian street protestors will work out. My bet is that they are headed for the same kind of long term change that resulted when demonstrations caused the Shah to leave Iran in 1979.
My take-away from the Time article is that the author is celebrating the 2011 demonstrations in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Spain, Greece, England, Libya, and Russia, and yes, the US, as steps to positive change. I don’t agree they are activities to celebrate.
I thumbed up your second response because at least it’s lacking the glib dismissiveness of your previous post.
So, you disagree with protest in general, or find it lacking in value as a step toward positive change. I’d argue that there’s several hundred years of evidence against this train of thought, as the author brings up early in the article. Where would we be without the successes of previous protest movements? Yes, time will tell what ends up happening in those countries where dictators and militaries were toppled this year, but were it not for the efforts of protestors those same corrupt and repressive institutions would be in place and the people in those countries wouldn’t have taken that first step toward something that will hopefully have a positive result. In any case it couldn’t get much worse.
Remember, though I believe the protestor is in fact something to celebrate, Time’s “Person of the Year” feature isn’t necessarily about celebration. Both Hitler and Stalin were former “Men of the Year,” and for no positive reason.
Dan wrote:?”the people in those countries wouldn’t have taken that first step toward something that will hopefully have a positive result. In any case it couldn’t get much worse.”
Yes, it can get much worse. In the cases of the 2011 Middle East, I think it will. History shows a lot of protest-inspired changes of government where conditions got much worse.
Now, the Dayton Occupiers along with the Civil Liberties Union are hitting the Montgomery County commissioners’ meetings really hard with threats and demands.
Gary, it’s lots warmer inside the Commission meeting room than outside on the streets. Can you blame them? :P
“Yes, it can get much worse. In the cases of the 2011 Middle East, I think it will. History shows a lot of protest-inspired changes of government where conditions got much worse.”
Yes, you’re right things can get worse. I was certain you’d latch onto that tossed off comment and sure enough… Yeah, it’s worse right now Syria… it got a lot worse in Myanmar. But Mark, what would you suggest to your average Tunisian or Egyptian or Syrian to improve their conditions and governments?… protest and mass gathering really is their best option to make their voices heard in situations where you’re technically not allowed to speak by law. They are willing to die at the hands of their oppressors… do you think if they had better options they wouldn’t take advantage of them? They better not wait for Western intervention since last I checked we’ve been giving over 1 billion a year in military aid to the repressive Egyptian they just overthrew (talk about waste of tax dollars)… the same weapons I’m sure that were used to put down protestors.
So you think the protestor’s efforts are futile in Middle East, but what would you suggest as an alternative?
I think (hope) that the technology that brought them all together in such an organized fashion will also help maintain that level of unification to see change through. I’m sure you’ve got your own historical examples to back up the futility of protest but I sure have my own plethora that support the idea that true revolution begins with protest (the United States being a bright shining example)… and all without the benefits of modern technology and social networking which will once again prove its effectiveness in uniting and organizing people in the Middle East in the coming years as they learn to utilize these tools even more effectively.
David L.
:(
I absolutely despised that video. I hate violence and force. They should only be as a last resort to repel imminent violence against an innocent or to ensure that someone who committed said violence is restrained from doing so again.
Using that video as an example of my beliefs is odd based on all of my statements on this site.
Indicating that anarcho-capitalists shoot people or are inclined to violence is not supported by any evidence at all.
It also seems to miss the reality that the most horrific murderers in history use the apparatus of government to commit the atrocities.
I really thought that you and I had more respect for one another than to post that kind of inflammatory and upsetting thing.
David L.
I also looked further into your claim that this video was popular on the libertarian websites and you are incorrect. It was a different song (the one you linked to was a remix) and the video you linked to had nothing to do with the original and is a video game adaptation made for the remixed song. The original has nothing to do with violence or shooting people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEGyTTaRpj0
While I still don’t like the music, this video and song is not nearly what you indicated it was.
Wow, Jesse, I didn’t say that you advocated violence. I said that Porter Robinson’s statement that “taxation is armed robbery” sounded like something you would say. Do you not find Robinson’s characterization of taxation as armed robbery very similar to what you said on December 3 about public education being “education provided at the point of a gun on those funding it”?
Also, you are incorrect that it was my claim that the video was popular on Libertarian websites. Liz Ohanesian made the claim in her article, an article that I saw after reading Andrew Sullivan’s post about it. It was Ohanesian who claimed
It was Sullivan who linked to the YouTube, and I said when I posted the link to Sullivan’s blog entry that “I couldn’t watch much of it because I couldn’t stand it.” You can be angry with me, if you like, because I speculated, somewhat tongue in cheek, that you might like the YouTube, but if you’re angry that this is the association that many people are making about anarchists like you and Porter Robinson, your beef is not with me but with the anarchists who can’t put out a better message.
David,
I didn’t disagree with what Robinson said.
I take umbrage with, what I perceived as, an indication that anarcho-capitalism was related to running around shooting people. (I think an easy assumption to make based on the video to which you linked).
You put up the comment on this site without correlating the videos that Ohanesian and Sullivan were talking about. The “track” that was created by Robinson isn’t even the same one to which you linked.
Indicating that I should be upset with myself?!? or Porter Robinson (who had almost nothing to do with the link you posted to) is again insulting. That is like me linking to a person who excerpted a portion of a speech in support of gay marriage and turning it into a statement about how we should shoot people who don’t support gay marriage. Me then indicating that I think that you might like it. When you get upset (reasonable) I would then go about blaming the inability of homosexuals to put out a better message.
Intellectual dishonesty is offensive.
Jesse, you claim, incorrectly, that I linked to a video. I did not. I posted a link to Andrew Sullivan’s blog post that had an embedded video. You can be upset that I called the video to your attention, but the video is not some unrelated video I found on my own.
Your claim that “Porter Robinson … had almost nothing to do with the link you posted to” is also incorrect. Sullivan’s blog post is about a YouTube entitled “Porter Robinson – The State (Battlefield 3 Machinima Music Video by Quantic Media)” and about an interview in LA Weekly by Liz Ohanesian entitled “Porter Robinson: The Libertarian Dubstep Guy.”
Should I have known that the video that Sullivan embeds in his blog post was not the one he was talking about? You seem to think so, and it’s your right to point out that the video Sullivan embedded “had nothing to do with the original and is a video game adaptation made for the remixed song,” but you can’t say with any honesty that the video was embedded by me on this site and not by Sullivan on his own site.
Who should be offended now? You? Or me by your dishonest assertions claiming that I said you were in favor of violence, claiming that I linked directly to videos, claiming that I made assertions as to whether videos are popular on Libertarian websites, and claiming that the posts to which I’ve linked were not about Porter Robinson?
You linked to the blog. Fact check the assertions made by the websites to which you link or be prepared to have people be upset by the misrepresentation of the truth by those websites. I am done with this discussion. It is sufficient that it has been made evident that the video embedded in the article to which you linked was not “making the Libertarian rounds”. It was a hack job.
Yep, I linked to the blog, and then you made a bunch of inaccurate claims, all in the name of “intellectual honesty.”
What’s really funny about all this is that you can be all upset with me but I didn’t create Andrew Sullivan’s impression of anarcho-capitalists or Liz Ohanesian’s impression of anarcho-capitalists, and Sullivan’s post and Ohanesian’s article were viewed by thousands more people than ever come to Esrati.com. Suck on that.
You now point out that a bunch of people have been tricked by a hack job on a website that gives false and misleading information to their readers and tell me to “suck on that”. Great demonstration of your love for intellectual honesty.
I have become so disheartened with this discussion and the reaction to it, that I am reminded of a statement my mother made to me repeatedly as a child, “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”
Jesse, you’re the one who said that “Intellectual dishonesty is offensive” and then turned around and made a bunch of claims that were dishonest (starting with “the video you linked to had nothing to do with the original”). Yes, I tweaked you a bit by linking to Andrew Sullivan’s blog post with a video and an article. But it was just a bit of a tweak. I’m not sorry that I posted the link to Sullivan. I truly did not do so with the intention of saying that you supported the kind of violence depicted in the video embedded on Sullivan’s post. I was more focused on the quote (which even you admit adheres to your anarcho-capitalist views). I didn’t go out to research the stupid video because, as I said, I couldn’t watch the whole thing — I didn’t know about dubsteb before reading Sullivan and Ohanesian and wasn’t inclined to go looking for more. Despite the respect you claimed to have had for me (but which now, I suppose, is forever lost), you ascribe the most evil intentions to me, so upset by the violent video game remix as to think that I had surreptitiously become a Libertarian dubstep expert and that I had deliberately gone out on my own to find a more violent Libdub video to take the place of the pure original. Care to talk about intellectual dishonesty now? No, I guess you don’t care to, since you’re leaving forever, to find more worthy people to cast your pearls of wisdom before. But before you go, here’s a fun nugget for you, that I only just realized: The video embedded in Sullivan’s post, the one named “Porter Robinson – The State (Battlefield 3 Machinima Music Video by Quantic Media)” that I was supposed to recognize was not an official Porter Robinson and that I needed to go out and write a doctoral dissertation on before even mentioning, has 455,921 views on YouTube. The video to which you link, the one named “Porter Robinson – The State” (and posted by someone… Read more »
Occupy Cairo, how’s that hope and change looking?
Egypt: Islamists consolidate gains in 2nd round of parliamentary elections CAIRO — Islamist parties have consolidated earlier gains in Egypt’s multistage parliamentary elections, winning nearly 70 percent of the seats determined so far, according to results announced Saturday. … The secular and liberal forces that largely drove Egypt’s uprising against former leader Hosni Mubarak were trounced, failing to turn their achievement into a victory at the polls. The secular alliance of Egyptian Bloc and youth Revolution Continues won less than 10 percent of the seats.
— Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/egypt-islamists-consolidate-gains-in-2nd-round-of-parliamentary-elections/2011/12/24/gIQA9JEMFP_story.html
Will Desperate Egyptian Christians Seek Refuge In The US?
Violence against Christians is growing; bad economic times, the inability or unwillingness of security forces and
Welcome to Cairostan
Last Saturday, violent groups of Islamic-Salafi radicals burned the famous scientific institute established by Napoleon in Egypt after its first encounter with the West. Some historians consider it the start of modern times in the Middle East. The site, L’Institut d’Egypte, held some 200,000 original and rare books, exhibits, maps, archeological findings and studies from Egypt and the entire Middle East, based on the work of generations of western researchers. Most of the artifacts were lost forever, burned or looted. —-ynet.news http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4165576,00.html
Left this one out of last post:
Will Desperate Egyptian Christians Seek Refuge In The US?
Violence against Christians is growing; bad economic times, the inability or unwillingness of security forces and police to keep order, and the growing tide of Islamist political and religious mobilizations is making life increasingly insecure for Egypt’s eight million Christians. An
article in the Wall Street Journaloffers a harrowing picture of a minority that is beginning to come under siege. Christians are being threatened with violence if they fail to convert; women who do not cover their hair are harassed, harangued and threatened on the street; churches are burned and the wall of isolation around this ancient community deepens every day. —-The American Interest http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/12/24/will-desperate-egyptian-christians-seek-refuge-in-the-us/
This is only the beginning Mark. Do you always find things to be over at their beginning stages? Really bad habit to make. “Occupy Cairo,” as you called it, is less than a year old. Come back in 5 years with your update on how things are going and I might not completely dismiss your dismissiveness. In that 5 years you might want to read something about the history of protest and revolution… then you might even find it beneficial to wait another 5 years before citing the “hopelesness” of protest and revolution. I’d be willing to bet though that with the right books you’re attitude may have some “hope for change.”
In that time I will continue to hope for the best for Egypt and if nothing else send them my moral support. It is possible to overcome tyranny and oppression… it’s been done countless times in the past 200 years… and then it sometimes needs to happen again.
I should have preficed my statement above by saying that I have spent much of my last 4 years studying Islamist movements, goverments and the Islamic religion. I believe that if Egypt adopts an Islamic government it doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing for its people… Christians included. It could constitute at least some of the hope and change desired by the secular segment of the protest movements. What Mark has posted above is like referencing atrocities purported by Christians (Christians have been terrorists too) and claiming it to be representative of why Christian leadership would be bad for revolution, or as evidence of why it would fail.
Maybe not, with the exception of the fact that they’re killing the Christians. I’m somehow doubting THEY feel the change is for the better.
I believe that if Egypt adopts an Islamic government it doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing for its people… Christians included. (Dan)
…and a LA takeover by the Crips doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing for the Bloods…
Well I can assuredly state that neither of you know ANYTHING about Muslims or the multifacted face of Islam. Really… absolutely nothing. You think fringe groups of Muslims are representative of the whole… that line of thinking has led to some of the world’s biggest atrocities and some of the most racist sentimentalities. You bought into the propaganda and now spread your own ignorance. Check yourself, if you’re not too set in your ways to actually learn something new. Read books, listen to the intelligent Muslims!!! Maybe one day before you self-professed old fogies kick it you might be able to speak intelligently about them. Consider me disappointed in both of you and all who make oversimplified statements about complex issues and people. Shame on you.
For me, when the main Muslim sect are screwing little girls–after marrying them, ok–I see it as a Muslim problem when the other Muslim groups just sit back and watch and do nothing about it. When gay bishops and popes sit back and watch their priests molest little children, I see a big problem in the Catholic doctrine/dogma!
And seriously… before either of you retort or “tumbs down” me… read a damn book about Islam! or have a discussion with a Muslim about their religion or what they think about what is happening in Egypt and the rest of the middle east right now. If you can’t do that little bit before spreading your ill-informned views you are simply another cog in proaganda hate machine and will get no respect from me or anyone with a modicum of intelligence about the matter.
Gary— which Muslim groups?… the ones in North Africa?… the ones in South Africa?… the ones in the Middle East?… the ones in Egypt?…. the ones in Iran?…. the ones in China?…. the ones in Russia?…. the ones in Indonesia?…. the ones in the U.S.?…. not to mention the many many variations in between and including those areas mentioned. While I agree that the incidents mentioned above are wrong YOU are wrong to compare it in any way to the Catholic Church. There is no central governing body of Muslims like there is a Vatican. There is no central figure to dissuade certain fringe elements like there are a Pope and Bishops. Once again you’re discussing fringe elements of a wide ranging and complex Muslim society that probably represent less than 1% of the whole. In fact most groups of Muslims, when you divide them as such, represent less than 1% of the whole. Even when you break it down into Sufi, Sunni and Shi’a.
Read books about Muslims people! Seriously. This has been my major area of historical and socilogical study and I’ll know if you’re blowing smoke and repeating nonsense.
Oh and Gary there is no such thing as a “main Muslim sect.” Sorry it doesn’t exist… plain and simple.
Dan, can you point to any countries with majority Islamic governments that are positive examples?
Iran had its Occupy Tehran equivalent in the seventies when the Shah was deposed. Much more than five years has passed since then.
From what I know, Turkey was considered to be fairly democratic but I get the impression it has moved/is moving to a less secular and more authoritarian government.
I am not a student of Islam and its politics so I’d be interested in your thoughts.
I have a few questions about Islam:
1) Islam is the combination of Religion and state correct?
2) Do Islamic states have a large openness to freedom of religion and expression?
3) Does the Quran state that it is ok to lie to infidels? There seem to be many places that point out that it does.
4) Does Islam have an inherent cultural goal of conversion?
Dan, maybe you could answer.
Before I address some of your questions I just want to say that these are complex discussions that Islamic scholars have been continually debating since shortly after the death of Muhammad. Theological debates on Islam have really picked up steam again in the past 100 years due to Western encroachment and the need for Muslims to find the best ways to approach these problems in the most appropriate way for Muslims. I’ll share what i know but the best way to understand Islam is to read books about it written by Muslims… not Westerners who bring their own cultural baggage to the discussion… myself included. I believe that secular governance is always the best, but if you’re a majority Islamic state and the majority want an Islamic government then that is what is best for those people at that time. The world has continually moved towards more and more secular governments over periods of hundreds and hundreds of years, and the middle east will probably move in that direction eventually. However, they need to have the opportunity to do it their own way. Mark – Some would say that there hasn’t been a truly Islamic government since the original Ummah under Muhammad. This alone should affirm that you shouldn’t take what you see in modern Islam entirely at face value. Where you see one set of customs and values among certain Muslims you will find an entirely different set of values and customs by other Muslims even in fairly near by locations. As far as positive modern examples of largely Islamic governments, many scholars point to the Ottoman Empire as an example. It was long lasting, inclusive of various cultures and religions, had long periods of peace and prosperity and was generally hands-off concerning local governments within the empire. They allowed subjects to continue their own long held traditions and religions despite pledging loyalty to the sultan. It certainly was better for the people there than the post WWI and WWII borders and puppet governments established by the West after the fall of the Ottomans. My next statement will probably… Read more »
There are extreme idiots in every religion, political party, etc.
A story in the New York Times shows that Jews can be just as extreme:
The United States has our own zealots too- the Kasich administration with the Ohio house and their “heartbeat bill” come to mind. Dan is very nice to take so much time to contribute to your education guys- please thank him.
Well I can assuredly state that neither of you know ANYTHING about Muslims or the multifacted face of Islam. And I can assure you that given a damned good part of Muslims believe in Sharia Law, I don’t see where I feel any need to explore the wonders of their “multifaceted face.” Or are you claiming that most of the religion does not hold a firm belief in being judged under the standards of Sharia, rather than a non-Muslim country justice system? See, I spend a good bit of time each week around Muslims in Canada, and hear their conversations about how the authorities up there have some strange idea that EVERYONE should behave under the standards of their country, not where these people came from. And the majority of Muslims I run into up there are second generation in Canada. When gay bishops and popes sit back and watch their priests molest little children, I see a big problem in the Catholic doctrine/dogma! So, in your opinion, the highly publicized stories of sexual molestation in the Catholic Church are covered in the Church doctrine/dogma? Odd, Sister Vianney never covered that in religion class. I challenge you to show where that is listed in Church teachings, all available on-line. I might note that the sexual molestation of children by Catholic Priests were by less than 1% of clergy in the religion. The greater part of the accusations from a time in our country where sexual predators were treated exactly the same way by our justice system. What’s worse is the fact a great many accusations are of Priests no longer living, thus unable to defend their name against charges. And, any accusations of Catholic Priests seem to make front page news, where other religious groups are given the courtesy of printing the stories way further back in the paper, “below the fold” as they say. Children’s services personnel accusations of abuse are MUCH higher than those of any Christian religion, but they sure as hell don’t get “star” billing. And somehow, the statute of limitations… Read more »
Thanks David – if there’s one thing that’ll rile me up it’s the oversimplification of complex issues, people and cultures… such an American thing to do where it’s so much easier to see things as black or white / good or bad. If only the world were actually so simple people like Pat might run it. “And I can assure you that given a damned good part of Muslims believe in Sharia Law, I don’t see where I feel any need to explore the wonders of their “multifaceted face.”” Whelp… sorry that makes you intellectually lazy. There’s both great things and awful things that spring from all religions and cultures… it’s your loss if you choose to ignore them… but then it seems you’re willfully ignorant. “Or are you claiming that most of the religion does not hold a firm belief in being judged under the standards of Sharia, rather than a non-Muslim country justice system?” If you get anything from what i said above it’s that Islam isn’t any one thing in particular… it is in fact “multi-faceted.” For instance many Muslims believe that consuming alcohol and homosexuality are wrong. Well then does that mean that my Muslim friend Mari who is both gay and drinks alcohol occasionally is not a Muslim? He’d say he is. He’s also one the smartest people I’ve come across. Your Muslim buddies in Canada might prefer to live by Shari’a law over Canadian law but how is that any different than Christians in the U.S. wanting to solely live by the word of the bible and not U.S. law. While they might dislike government laws for the allowance of abortion they still must accept them as citizens of the country… even while they seek to overrule them. Could these Muslims pose a threat to people they disagree with… no more or less so than those Christians. You can choose to ignore my “education” but it comes from time honored sources like books and academic scholars, not armchair internet critics whose understanding of Islam comes from a place… Read more »
Pat gets indignant, saying “And I can assure you that given a damned good part of Muslims believe in Sharia Law, I don’t see where I feel any need to explore the wonders of their ‘multifaceted face.’ ”
Are you as upset, Pat, by the Christianists in our country who would impose their own brands of Christianity upon the rest of us?
For example, earlier this week Ron Paul’s campaign enthusiastically accepted the endorsement of Iowa pastor Phillip G. Kayser, issuing a press release that said, “We welcome Rev. Kayser’s endorsement and the enlightening statements he makes on how Ron Paul’s approach to government is consistent with Christian beliefs.”
Among the “Christian beliefs” Kayser espouses is this:
Unsurprisingly LGBT Americans and our allies were outraged by Paul’s accepting an endorsement from a Christianist pastor who calls not only for the recriminalization of homosexuality but also for the death penalty for queers. Paul’s campaign removed the press release praising Kayser from the Paul website, but thanks to the Internet it’s not so easy to remove damning evidence. See http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ron-pauls-campaign-touts-endorsement-of-pastor-who-advocates-killing-gay-people/ for more on this story as well as the full text of the Paul campaign press release.
Pat, you may worry about Islamists coming to our country to impose Sharia law, but I think I’ll keep an eye on the religious fundamentalists we already have here.
Why do the Islams/Muslims bob and rock their torsos and heads on that big wall and on the floor? Are they praying?
Yes, they’re praying. Prayer, just like everything else concerning Islam comes in many shapes and forms. Some Islamic groups sit silently, while others dance and whirl and chant, and others openly weep and create spectacles.
…if there’s one thing that’ll rile me up it’s the oversimplification of complex issues, people and cultures… such an American thing to do…(Dan)
…but it is simple Dan, despite your attempt to complicate and overthink. Let the Old Bandito share a lesson he learned while an undergraduate in the Infantry Department of the University of South Vietnam; you have an professed and admitted enemy; that nemesis has the ways, means, inclination and wherewithall to cause you harm, yet when you shoot them, they die. It’s simplicity incarnate…
Pat, you may worry about Islamists coming to our country to impose Sharia law, but I think I’ll keep an eye on the religious fundamentalists we already have here. (David Laurie)
was
…whatever happened to that group called the Weathergirls? Their song “It’s Raining Men” was a staple of the Disco era and is required, by law, to be on the jukebox of every gay bar in North America. But that isn’t a bad description of downtown Tehran when the Imams get together for some Saturday afternoon justice. It seems, DL, that the Sharia approved method of executing gays is throwing them off the highest building. And those surviving the leap of faith get stoned. Literally. So when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed a few years back that there were no gays in Iran, that could mean a couple of things. One, the Tehran Gay Rights Parade attracts few celebrants, or it’s really raining men…
Ice- It’s not my attempt to make things complicated… things actually are complicated, if you bother to use your brain. Despite my disagreements with you on other issues at least you came across as thoughtful, here you do not in any way shape or form seem intelligent about the matter.
Muslims and Islam are not our “professed and admitted” enemy… only some people/groups who happen to be Muslims. What I stated above aren’t my opinions… they are facts (look them up, I know you won’t, too much effort). I find it hilarious that people would thumbs down a FACT like there isn’t a main sect of Muslims. If ever there was a truth that is one. I have Muslim friends… they are not my enemy. We have Muslim entrepreneurs and business owners who are grateful to be in America… they are not our enemy. If we hadn’t completely screw over the people of the middle east over the past 100 years they probably wouldn’t be our enemy. And despite all this there are still many Muslims of the middle east that don’t consider themselves our enemy.
I’m guessing you still haven’t read anything of substance or actually bothered to challenge yourself on the topic, so I’ll reiterate. Shut up and stop spreading your ignorance. You know absolutely NOTHING other than what some Glenn Beck type idiots want you to believe. To paraphrase Forest Gump: Simple is as simple does.
I challenge any of you to refute any of the many facts I’ve offered from any of my comments above. Here’s the catch: you must actually source your information from some place of honesty, integrity and value (ie a source you would use on a research paper. not wikipedia (although their info is fairly unbiased)… not rightwingopinion.com… in fact most websites would be barred from the list outside of academic or scholarly sites). Good luck… and maybe you’ll learn something. Though I have my doubts anyone will rise to the challenge.