Occupy Dayton IS the “Grande Illumination”
Sandy Gudorf is an overpaid tool of corporate America. As the president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership she is paid more than $100K a year to tax property owners and then give tax breaks to new businesses. She also hires cheap contract labor to do the job of cleaning downtown sidewalks as a way to sidestep standard employment practices.
Now, she also wants to limit free speech- because lighting a Christmas tree is now more important than free speech (never mind the separation of church and state). In the Dayton Daily News she claims that because she brings 30K people to the square and it’s a 39-year-old tradition- we shouldn’t be allowed to protest the giant inequities that have developed in our country- thanks to people like her who believe in corporate welfare more than in human welfare and dignity:
Occupy Dayton, the local Wall Street and establishment protest linked with other protests throughout the nation, is being asked to temporarily move from Courthouse Square downtown for the Nov. 25 Grande Illumination.
The request came Thursday from Sandy Gudorf, president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, the business group that organizes the holiday ceremonial Christmas tree-lighting and festivities. “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
via Occupy Dayton protest must relocate for Grande Illumination.
The question to ask Ms. Gudorf is how exactly she is going to enforce her personal ban on free speech- will people wearing Obama shirts be asked to leave the square? Or if the Klu Klux Klan shows up in their bedsheets? (she’ll quickly learn that arresting the KKK is impossible, it’s already been tested in the courts).
Gudorf is an idiot. By whining a few weeks before the event, she’s already begun to solidify the movement’s resolve to be there. I plan on being there wearing my sandwich board- and I’ll be damned if she, or any police officer is going to tell me I don’t have a right to be there.
The Occupy Movement’s real motivation is to enlighten the 99% of the wholesale illegal transfer of wealth though government-sponsored policies that have made our country a third world debtor nation on the brink of collapse. The Sandy Gudorfs of the world have helped banks take our homes, our jobs and destroy our standard of living.
In fact, one of the main reasons the “Grande Illumination” has grown in scale over the recent years is because it’s a free event- something nice people can do who can’t afford a Christmas tree or as many presents as they used to give thanks to the wizards of Wall Street and our sold-out politicians.
I urge you to join me in protesting with the Occupy movement on Nov. 25th at Courthouse Square.
As a shameless plug: my ad agency, The Next Wave has produced some stickers to show your support of the movement and is donating 20% of each sale to the local movement. Stickers are 99¢ each and available at: www.stickittothe1percent.com
[UPDATE]After a few days- Gudorf is now only asking for the tents to go – not the protesters- at least, that’s what I’m interpreting.
That’s an acceptable position – but- the protest can and should still go on.
@Shortwest Rick added this video to the discussion- well worth watching:
I don’t think the Occupiers are “teenage socialist / anarchists” – teenagers would act better. When a person or group is protesting, observers should not have to “research” what it’s about – the protestor’s message should be loud and clear. The Occupy Dayton group’s message is loud and clear to me – “we are living like farm animals in the middle of downtown and would rather beg people bring us pizza, do our laundry, and pick up our garbage than act like human beings and leave our self-made hovel to go home to bathe, launder, and eat. And why did the county turn off our electricity?”. They claim that most of them are employed homeowners, yet they can’t do these basic things for themselves? Protest all you want, but these actions aren’t promoting your cause. This group is an embarassment.
David, as a supporter and sympathizer have you considered putting them up in some of your real estate and providing them the sustenance they have shown they can’t provide for themselves?
Ahh, very good Alice. Another “the world is black and white and I’ve got it all figured out and I’m right attitude, so I’ll generalize and stereotype about something that I have no information about.” The protestors outside are a tiny fraction of those who support the 99%, I myself have only been out there twice.
I’m sorry a little research is too hard for you, but really if you’ve been paying attention for the past 3 years at all it should be fairly clear with no additional reading whatsoever what the Occupiers are working towards. You might consider them to be farm animals, but who here is the sheep? The real embarrassment should be your lack of insight and inability to question the most obvious of corruptions. You anger is extremely misdirected.
To those naysayers, please read this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy
and this: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10
…then come back and make your generalizations and sweeping judgments.
This concludes my participation in this thread, I have work to do.
ok ok… one last thing:http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/15/news/companies/fannie_freddie_executive_pay/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
re-align your anger people… it’s not protestors you should be pissed off at.
I am sorry…I don’t have time to occupy anything. I am too busy working, supporting my family, and being a productive citizen.
Maybe some of these homes wouldn’t be foreclosed, etc…if some of these people that have so much free time to occupy public places, got off their asses and got jobs. And before the “job availability” argument starts…check with Yellow Roadway Corp…20,000 open positions nationwide. Paid training, school, and healthcare. All you have to do it show up and drive. Is that too difficult? Or is it easier to stand around and bitch?
All the nay-sayers make the worst arguments. Not even worth getting into the details because they have already been covered. If you were actually “smart,” or a “productive citizen,” cough* Truth, allison, then you could read earlier comments where both of your feeble-minded,doltish arguments have already been debunked. Congrats on being yet another person who has no idea what they are talking about. Those families you have are probably very happy to live in a home built upon ignorance.
Occupy protestors seem to be really mad at the banks and corporate America who have taken advantage of various different tax code, bail outs and other advantages to exact large profits. Oddly, why are protestors so mad at opportunist corporations who are competing in that parcel of capitalism we have left for a government who is so dysfunctional it is giving money away? I mean really, for every dollar the bottom quartile puts into the tax system, the get about $8.00 back in benefit. So, what exactly are they getting screwed out of? I agree with Dan, re-align your anger. Government is the enabler, Corporations are the enabled. Yet, the anger is high towards the enabled. Dan, you seem to get angry at anyone that makes generalizations, but none of them have been far from the mark. From you KOS article: All the” 99%” wants is for you to remember the role that Wall Street played in creating this mess, and for you to join us in demanding that Wall Street share the pain. They don’t want to share the pain, and they’re spending a lot of money and twisting a lot of arms to foist their share of the pain on the rest of us instead. And they’ve been given unprecedented powers to spend and twist, and they’re not even trying to hide what they’re doing. Can I draw your attention to the “been given unprecendented powers” portion. Yes, by the enabler, the government, whom no one seems to be particularly upset with. This article goes on to claim how he wants healthcare for all, demonstrating a very socialist idea where the means of production would be owned by the public, but the cost spread forcefully to the individuals of society. So, while you are sitting there thinking about why you are angry, realize it is because our system of government is broken. When we decided it was ok to begin breaking down the freedoms of individuals, implementing social programs and publicly funded safety nets…………well we decided then and there that individual freedom, that liberty was no longer our… Read more »
I was about to type, “Why can’t we all be civil about all of this and regard one another with the respect we are all due…”
But then I saw this and I thought, “Screw civilization. It’s just not working out…”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/11/15/142339570/is-civilization-a-bad-idea?sc=fb&cc=fp
“Corporations are the enabled”
Robert, One presumes that you are including the non profit corporations as well as the for profit in this assertion. Non profit entities such as hospitals, universities and unions that gain financial benefits from the government that are purchased through lobbyists and campaign contributions.
@Shortwest- this is exactly the point- thanks for sharing:
http://www.youtube.com/v/eAdsdlq42nE?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0
Guess I can’t embed the video in the comments…
I added it to the post.
@ Pat:
You wrote:
“I disagree with government officials kissing the asses of people who refuse to act like something other than a really spoiled 3 year old.”
and
“I’d rather see the city use their convict contractor to demolish the building than to see that happen.”
Well said.
New York (AP) “A New York judge has upheld the City’s dismantling of the Occupy Wall Street encampment, saying that the protesters’ first amendment rights don’t entitle them to camp out indefinitely in the plaza.”
Ooops.
Unfortunately bobby, Zuccotti Park belongs to Brookfield Properties, although it is provided as a publicly accessible space, #OWS has no recourse when being evicted from private property.
@ David Sparks, you claim that if people want OD out of the square, they need only attend one of their assemblies and vote for them to leave? Pardon me if I call BS on that, I watched your video of their assembly. I saw ONE person present their desire calmly and respectfully. And the collected crowd screamed like they’d been hit. The only option that got respect from the crowd was the DEMAND they stay if the county didn’t end foreclosures for a year.
Frankly, were I to attend without plenty of people to watch over me, judging by the attitudes I’ve seen in your videos, I’d not be shocked if I was attacked. Because we both know I’m kinda a “speak my mind” kind of guy. These folks would NOT appreciate my opinions.
Sorry Rick, I’m on the road with only my phone to go on-line, and can’t get this to work viewing that video. I’ll try to remember to check it out when I get home and answer you.
@ Pat: you are missing my point. There are about 20 people down there at the GAs. A group of 50 voting would be a landslide, and it’s open to the public. That’s the point of the whole thing, from my what I understand: direct open democracy by anyone who shows up.
If you are too big of a marshmallow and can’t handle the howls of a few, then you are ruled by the howling few, and get what all who are ruled by their own fears get.
I’ve been down there filming four times, and was right in the middle of the video you speak of. This group on the courthouse is about as scary as Elmo, although there are a vocal few.
If you’re afraid of voicing your own opinions in public, then you’re just another in a long line of fellow our countrymen who live their lives ruled by their own fears.
Quit making excuses of why you can’t do something. You’re just not brave enough to. Sitting behind the keyboard is easy.
I agree that it’d be rather foolish not to attend a GA because one is afraid for one’s safety.
However, David Sparks, perhaps you miss another point that could be made by the point you were trying to make. You say, “There are about 20 people down there at the GAs. A group of 50 voting would be a landslide, and it’s open to the public.” 20 people? Wow. Perhaps the people of Dayton and Montgomery County have spoken by not attending the GAs.
That doesn’t mean the causes for which Occupy Dayton is fighting are not worthy. It might mean, however, that the strategies they are using to try to motivate the 99% are not working.
Matthew…now the fun can begin…. Why don’t the “Occupy” supporters start placing blame where it lies…on the government. And as a followup, start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming Wall Street, banks, and The Man. I challenge you to invest some reading time into the Community Reinvestment Act. Where was the Occupy Movement when the CRA was signed and expanded? Why aren’t the Occupy individuals squatting on Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton’s front yard when they forced banks to make illegitimate loans? Had the government not told banks that they had to loan certain individuals money, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Do you think they banks would purposely put their books in the position they have been in the last five years? Had the government allowed banks to make low risk loans for years, those undeserving individuals who couldn’t pay their sub-prime mortgage, wouldn’t have been foreclosed on. They would still have their jobs and would be renting from an individual that can afford to invest. When individuals who made 50k a year were approved for a home loan for 250k, their dumb ass should have said they couldn’t afford it. The new generations want immediate gratification. They got it, and now America is suffering. Banks were rewarded for issuing loans to low income people in low income areas. Why do you think they gave the loans? The government gave incentives for loan issuing practices that were sketchy. The American Dream isn’t much of a dream with every Tom, Dick, and Harry could waltz into a bank and own a home or get 50k in plastic credit. It is a mindset. This mindset encouraged a situation of entitlement. People need to suffer a bit instead of getting everything from The Man. Corporations should be “enabled”. Enabled to invest into job creation. Why are corporations sitting on a stockpile of money? Because the new generation of people is electing politicians that believe every American should have the same standard of living as the other. If the government would do their part to encourage corporate growth in America,… Read more »
David Lauri: “Perhaps the people of Dayton and Montgomery County have spoken by not attending the GAs.”
That too. I’m just suggesting the obvious solution for those who are opposed to them being there for the festival.
Why do I think that if 20+ “outsiders” showed up and voted for OD to leave the square, they’d come with an excuse not to ? Here’s one they could use: The “outsiders” were paid to show up by the 1% !! :)
That doesn’t mean the causes for which Occupy Dayton is fighting are not worthy. It might mean, however, that the strategies they are using to try to motivate the 99% are not working.
…polling shows the public agrees in a general way with the message of the Occupy movement, or some of the message. That people are not actually active, or there is only a small core, is more represenative of the general apathy in people getting involved in politics to such a degree. Also, there is the issue—in Dayton— of this being a more-or-less left movement in a conservative region, which means a gauranteed low turnout. You could see this with the first big Occupy Dayton ralleys, when there was a small turnout vis a vis Tea Party, which was a massive turnout in comparison. As I’ve said before here, I am amazed that they get more than 10-15 people at their events. Looks like not much more, per David Sparks’ reports.
Now, go to a place like, say, Portland, Maine, and you’ll find a much larger turn-out in a much smaller city, which is maybe more respresentative of the poltiical culture of that place.
Also, for smaller cities like Syracuse, which is comparable to Dayton, you have small turnout since the pool of potential activists is smaller.
BTW, reading the Occupy Dayton Facebook page it looks like police harrassment is starting up.I guess a question is from who will the order come to clear Occupy Dayton from Courthouse Square (more a process question), and when will the police move?
Finally, if anyone wants to attend there is a General Assembly tonight at 7 PM. I plan on being there to see what is happening.
…saying that the protesters’ first amendment rights don’t entitle them to camp out indefinitely in the plaza.”
This is perhaps based on a 1984 USSC 7-2 decision involving a proposed homeless camp on the Mall, as a demonstration related to the homeless issue, which was a big issue at that time. USSC found that the govt had the right to ban camping in a public park, that it wasnt a free speech issue.
You are correct. The first weekend rally was attended by approximately 200 plus people. That has dwindled to 20-40 (sorry, I don’t count every single person, it’s just a best guess).
Last night, our Education Working Group met and we amended the counter-proposal to the DDP/City. Direct democracy is very difficult. This evening’s GA will center around an acceptance or a rejection of the amendments – but the counter-proposal has already been accepted by the GA.
There are many people who participate in Occupy Dayton who are rarely on the square. The way I view this is that there are some folks (the mostly young people who have been camping) who are able to put their time into spending time at the occupation site. There are others of us, however, who put in countless hours researching, meeting, and designing direct actions for now and for the future. We are all needed and we are all important.
You will be able to read the counter-proposal in full on Thursday at noon. If you wish to see the amended draft, please show up at the GA tonight. Anyone is welcome to attend. There are also many working groups you can volunteer to participate in. Participation levels vary.
Occupy will be present at the Grand Illumination. We support this holiday festival and intend to participate. There is no violation of laws or policies in our doing so.
@truth…”And allow America to continue to grow naturally”
I find this comment most amusing. Is this to say that “growth” of the sort Monsanto has undertaken – where Monsanto execs take turns running the FDA and where they’re petitions to patent human and other DNA get approved hands-down – is what we need more of? I don’t call any of that “natural”. If you read a bit of economic history, you can see that there have been many times in civilizations past that ruling entities have used hegemonic force to lay claim to the given situation being “natural”.
There is nothing natural about any of the situations we are in. As a matter of fact, our current economic system is entirely unsustainable and unnatural. There are many changes that need to occur in our world. Perhaps you should talk to some of the Occupiers and get a more clear understanding of their perspectives. From my conversations with the folks I met with last night, it is my understanding that most of them fault our government just as much if not more than corporations. It is the collusion of the two that is being protested against.
Here’s a great article on Direct Democracy if any of you are interested:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/15/occupy-anarchism-gift-democracy
As of 4 PM today there where three Sheriff deputy cars, flashers going, at CHS, with the deputies on the square at the camp. A white van was with the cars. Then a fourth police car pulled up.
Then I had to catch my bus, so couldnt see what went down.
The GA was going on with three TV vans parked at around 7:30 when we passed by after City Commission.
^
Yeah, the GA was pretty contentious. Too bad you missed it!
There were three or four “moral blocks” to that proposal that OD temporarily vacate the square in exchange for the city, county and banks to impose a one year foreclosure moratorium. One guy made what sounded like a good counterproposal that they come to formal agreement with the county government (not the DDP) on some of this, the conditions and also about shrinking footprint when events are on the square. Sounded good, but they didn’t vote on that.
So I think that one year moratorium has been withdrawn. Not sure where there that leaves OD vis a vis Sandy Gurdoffs proposal.
…Why is it that people keep pushing the same old misunderstood b.s. when you clearly have not done any research or read anything of value concerning what it is that Occupy Wall Street is actually about. (Dan)
…Due diligence done, Dan. But rather than web sites the Old Bandito wants to know your philosophies. And in the spirit of “you show me yours and I’ll show you mine,” here’s this writer’s credo; government should be minimized, made to follow the rule book known as the constitution and fiscally broke. And that mindset isn’t totally inconsistent to the Tea Party’s. Backstory: the Old Bandito is downtown by vocation and avocation seven days a week and never passes up an opportunity to interact with occupiers. And after all these conversations, the Old Bandito still ain’t got a clue what central philosophy guides this group. And a spirited counter leaves the aforementioned with the same facial characteristics seen right before the deer-strike. Enlighten this old man, Dan…
…If Daytonians want Occupy Dayton to leave Courthouse Square for The Holiday Festival, all they have to do is show up at the Occupy Dayton General Assembly…(David Sparks)
…General Assembly? Who nominated them, voted for them and for how long do they serve? Why not National Congress, Masters of the Universe or Council of the Gods? Between claiming to speak for 99 percent of to issuing unenforceable ultimatums to the city, what this bunch lacks in coherence and direction they more than make up for in ego and chutzpah…
…re-align your anger people… it’s not protestors you should be pissed off at. (Dan)
…Anger? Who’s angry? This spectacle is more fun than a combination train-wreck, bum-fight and freak show. And with these antics causing this movements popularity to go down faster than a stolen Honda in the Great Miami, the Old Bandito hopes this keeps up until at least until the 2012 election…
…Is this to say that “growth” of the sort Monsanto has undertaken – where Monsanto execs take turns running the FDA…(KAK)
…abolish the FDA. Problem solved…
Occupy Dayton’s decision to scale back their “demands” ( electricity and a permit vs. a countywide foreclosure moratorium) indicates the Sociology Department is listening to the the Law School.
I don’t see anyone addressing the issue of consistency here. The same set of laws and procedures ought to apply to everybody.
I have attended several events at the square where I was exposed to an insulting street preacher ranting at passers-by through an amplifier. I wondered at the time if the city had any law regarding the use of sound equipment in public space, and if they were going to enforce it.
Note that the most recent Urban Nights was marked by Christians who partially blocked the sidewalk with displays such as plywood coffins while aggressively witnessing their beliefs.
It seems to me that if the Occupy movement was promoting Christianity–even an offensively vulgar variety–recent history suggests they’d be tolerated rather than removed. Now, not all Christians offend me–the church that sets up a free water concession at Cityfolk, or even the fundies that pay for a space at Yellow Springs Street Fair, are advancing their beliefs in a way consistent with equal treatment. (At least, I think the Cityfolk people are–do they apply for space at the event like the other participants?)
So–regardless of whether you support, oppose, or are just a little bemused at the Occupy movement–don’t you think city commission should clarify the laws and regulations? Downtown Dayton Partnership should not be calling the shots concerning who uses a public space for what.
Courthouse Square is owned by Montgomery County. The DDP has a permit for their function. The campers do not.
@Ice Bandit: “And after all these conversations, the Old Bandito still ain’t got a clue what central philosophy guides this group.”
Here goes: http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/
Check that out for the central philosophy.
As for the process, please consult any writer on direct democracy and/or anarchism. The GA model is one that comes from these sources. To quote Graeber on this:
“about creating spaces that can stand outside of power, autonomous zones in which one can begin experimenting with things like direct democracy. It’s about a vision for what a truly free society might look like. But in order to do this, one must transgress the law. At least, this is what we discovered as soon as anyone applied for a permit. The moment you start submitting to the logic of the state, everything changes.” http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/08/feature3.shtml
Thanks for the clarification Bobby. It doesn’t alter my opinion; Downtown Dayton Partnership ought not to be in charge, Montgomery County commission might be responsible. At any rate, Dayton Police are the ones who patrol the area, so maybe the county should cede control.
I’m not saying I have the answers here, just trying to raise relevant questions about fairness and responsibility.
truddick, From the Montgomery County website: “Courthouse Square, operated by the Board of County Commissioners,…is open to any organization or individual who wishes to organize an event. For more information and policies contact the Courthouse Square office at 937-477-5268.”
The responsibility for removing the tents will ultimately fall upon the County Commissioners. You may rest assured they are keeping their head down hoping for a resolution that doesn’t include them or isn’t controversial. They are conspicuous by their silence.
Here is a bit of irony. The Dayton Holiday festival is presented (sponsored) by Time Warner, parent company of Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers owns the rights to the Guy Fawkes mask and receives a royalty on each mask sold.
It doesn’t matter what the public place is…there are rules to follow…
In Dayton, and other places, there are laws concerning loud music or noise, impeding traffic on a public roadway, jaywalking, impeding pedestrian traffic on sidewalks, etc….enforce them.
Obviously much of this doesn’t apply to Dayton. But in NYC…when they decide to disturb public roadways…arrest their asses on the spot. You have a right to demonstrate and protest. You don’t have a right to violate city and state laws.
Just got this. Interesting 9 “demands” (I really don’t like using that word; it’s one of those cogs that can break down communication and cooperation) but here’s the link. You are to come up with the 9th. I like the way this is worded: “. . . common-sense policies that would restore the balance for the 99%.” (my bolding) What 9th suggestion (or “demand”) would you add?
http://ninedemands.com/petitions/working-america
It looks like they went with the “reduce-the-footprint-for-events proposal” at the GA (I left as it was getting too cold for me), so the DDN reports.
This was actually pretty close to the DDP request that they reduce the size of the presence during the event.
The additional items (power..which Occupy Dayton would pay for…and a permit), would put the presence on the Square on a more sustainable legal and operational footing. The proposalt would also accomodate other groups using the square. Courthouse Square is so big that I think that a reduced footprint of an info-tent and maybe one smaller pup-tent (for symbolic purposes), would easily co-exist with the tree lighting, Gay Pride, or any of the other events held on the Square.
It would be similar to the arrangements the Occupiers have in some of the places I visited, particularly in Upstate NY.
Seems reasonable, so lets see how the County Commission responds.
…Dan and KAK. It’s overtime on road ice and the faceoff is in your end. Please tell the Old Bandito, in your own words and without reverting to a web site, your motivations, sympathies and philosophies concerning the Occupy movement. An old man in the twilight of his years really would like to know. And you may want to reply quickly, since the Old Bandito is currently experiencing chest tightness, heart palpitations and is seeing a brilliant white light ahead…
Oh now Ice Bandit, I’m sure you’ll make a few more days…it’s icy outside now so you should be in your element! It is interesting you ask this of me this morning…I’ve done some soul searching the past few days as the drama with the DDP/CHS/OD went down. I think I can say that for me, I must continue to return to the process of direct democracy and consensus building as my driving impetus. I am dissatisfied (as are others involved with OD as well as The Tea Party) with the current state of affairs in our society. I’d like to see things change. But I am a ponderer by nature and I have been spinning thoughts of the possibility of human societies both personally and professionally for all of my life. I want to believe that it is possible for humans to live, relatively peacefully, without corrupt, hierarchical governmental systems controlling their lives. For me, OWS/OD is a test case to see how people at the end of a civilization (I am not going to choose to discuss why I believe that our civilization as we know it is coming to an end but read some Taibbi or Chomsky or Diamond or any myriad of folks on this subject) can choose to organize their societies in a manner that attempts to eliminate these structures. On a practical level, it is my hope that in conducting this “experiment” in human organization we can alleviate suffering on the part of some who have lost the game/season/tournament. I’d like to see direct actions undertaken by the committed and dedicated folks participating in OD that tangibly change the lives of some of the folks here in Dayton. Our focus has been on foreclosure and eviction as the cold season is upon us and we live in a city where there are ample abandoned and vacant homes and a surge in homelessness. Does this make any kind of practical sense? Would any other species entertain this possibility for even 10 minutes? Again, I’ll return to the process. OWS is an… Read more »
…sorry, when I said “structures” above I was making reference to our current governmental system…
I think many of the OD protesters are content to attempt to foster change within this existing system. I’m fine with that and have no grand goals of overthrowing our government. However, I have a deep understanding that the very nature of our system – a representative democracy – is corrupt and that we cannot ever find a way to remedy this within this given system. I do not speak for everyone involved with OWS. This is my own, somewhat dark, perspective…But I am a single mother of three children and, dammit, I want to see things change for their sake!
I really did mean it that I was done with this thread in my previous post, these back and forths do little for me and little to alter anyone else’s perspectives (even if they’re fun sometimes). But since you asked nicely, and twice, I’ll give in. I’m an optimist, I believe that government can work in the best interest of the people, but right now I don’t believe it is. We need to find ways to once again make it responsible TO US. In brief here’s what I believe: •EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION (you want the economy to move forward? you want to end our culture of apathy? you want to see fewer people on welfare? you want to breed ethical and moral behaviors and dissuade greed, selfishness and ignorance? this is your solution right here. and sorry no child left behind is a terrible law that solves none of the endemic problems as to why a child does or doesn’t succeed in school. there’s a reason you can match the statistics of free lunch kids to kids who can’t pass the tests. see below.) •More welfare to the poor (See above. Yes, welfare programs need to be re-evaluated and made better and more accountable. But if you invest in the poor, and lift them up, you end the cycle of poor begets poor, and soon you have tax paying citizens and not welfare recipients. Poor people do not want to be poor, even if Herman Cain would love for everyone to believe that. Why do you think so many of them try so hard not to look poor? See first bullet again to understand why eventually these services would come to not be used by those who didn’t NEED them) •All men are NOT created equal (yet those who want to withdraw the social safety nets we currently have in place continue to believe this myth and want to punish those who really cannot function effectively in our society. Whether they’re mentally handicapped, disabled, too old, ignorant due to lack of education or were just simply… Read more »
Love it Dan! I hope you can convince everyone of the sense and logic of your ideas.
The one point you make that excites me the most is this:
•The people’s right to vote on ALL measures (ie a return to direct democracy, no more SB5s or big bank bailouts, or even healthcare, without the consent of the majority of the people)
This is my sticking point with anyone who wants to reform what we already have in place…until we STOP electing individual people with egos and drives to do our bidding on issues that effect us, we won’t find peace, justice, or fairness. All of your other points are important and valid…but if the people don’t get to actually vote on specific referendums and issues, eventually corruption will seep in.
Nice answer!
“Unfortunately, the movement is coming dangerously close to being about the right to camp anywhere anyone wishes to. And that’s not really a big deal at all.
The time to mature and change and adapt is now. I’d be happy to help, but you have to decide what you want. And if all you want is the right to camp wherever you want, then, you are going to watch your accomplishments fade into dust.”
—–From: http://politicalprof.tumblr.com/post/13015607510/a-brief-note-to-the-occupy-movement
Agree with Dan on most points, or the general thrust of his points.
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Anyhoo….greetings from Louisville, specfically Occupy Louisville, which has been using their more-or-less stable relationship with the local officials to do outreach and education. They have had a weeklong series of events and workshops, and today is one partly prensented by Kentuckians for the Commonwealth.
See this articles on “Seven Days of Solidarity” from their website, and from a local media outlet
http://occupylouisville.org/
http://www.wfpl.org/2011/11/13/occupy-louisville-demonstrators-organize-seven-days-of-events/
This is a good practical use of the visibility and physical presence that is the Occupy movement, saying to folks “y’all come on down” for teach-ins and speechifying and music and such. Using the Occupation as an education and organization and networking opportunity.
Also, talking to the Occupyiers they have a good relationship with local officials. They even have the police chiefs cell phone number for them to call him if there are issues. The mayor of Louisville has even come out with a statement of support….which is a big difference from our timid local officials.
However, Occupy Louisville is also accomodating things like Xmas Tree lightings…they relocated to a new site downtown to make way for the Light Up Louisville event.
Shortwest Rick November 15, 2011 at 12:30 am
@Pat – would you or would you not agree with this assessment ?
http://youtu.be/eAdsdlq42nE
Except he didn’t point out all who are “owned” in DC, Obama is just as “owned” as any member of Congress. For a Presidency that promised open government, he and his cronies sure cover up a lot of shit.
There is no way in hell the loan to Solendra was not a payback to one of his money people. There is no way in hell Henry Chu wasn’t informed by his staff that the company would most likely fail. And the excuse that they failed because the market changed is laughable, they were producing a solar panel that cost much more than the model produced in China. Which one do you think any consumer is going to buy/?
Direct open democracy? No, more of a mob rule judging from your videos, if the “message” isn’t favorable to those with the loudest voices, it’s shouted down.
I spend the week in a truck, out of Dayton usually all week. So, I’m hardly going to spend what little time I have home with my family running down to the square. Sure, they’re treating you OK, you’re shooting videos that show their “message”. And considering the re-edit of the interaction with Ms. Gudorf, with “commentary” supporting the cause, I’m sure they greet you like a long lost friend.
But thanks for showing me you haven’t changed much, throwing insults at those who disagree with you. It’s just like the old days.
What 9th suggestion (or “demand”) would you add? (Cathy Mong)
…Cable television is a fundamental human right. Especially sports and entertainment channels, with the exception of chick channels Oxygen and We…
Bandit, I’d hold out for ice cream & cake as well. And a pony!
Occupy Dayton’s facebook page indicates they are moving their camp from Courthouse Square.
Does anyone know what time the back patter committee is meeting? Will it be in the UD sociology department or the coffee shop?