Occupy Dayton IS the “Grande Illumination”
Sandy Gudorf is an overpaid tool of corporate America. As the president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership she is paid more than $100K a year to tax property owners and then give tax breaks to new businesses. She also hires cheap contract labor to do the job of cleaning downtown sidewalks as a way to sidestep standard employment practices.
Now, she also wants to limit free speech- because lighting a Christmas tree is now more important than free speech (never mind the separation of church and state). In the Dayton Daily News she claims that because she brings 30K people to the square and it’s a 39-year-old tradition- we shouldn’t be allowed to protest the giant inequities that have developed in our country- thanks to people like her who believe in corporate welfare more than in human welfare and dignity:
Occupy Dayton, the local Wall Street and establishment protest linked with other protests throughout the nation, is being asked to temporarily move from Courthouse Square downtown for the Nov. 25 Grande Illumination.
The request came Thursday from Sandy Gudorf, president of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, the business group that organizes the holiday ceremonial Christmas tree-lighting and festivities. “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
via Occupy Dayton protest must relocate for Grande Illumination.
The question to ask Ms. Gudorf is how exactly she is going to enforce her personal ban on free speech- will people wearing Obama shirts be asked to leave the square? Or if the Klu Klux Klan shows up in their bedsheets? (she’ll quickly learn that arresting the KKK is impossible, it’s already been tested in the courts).
Gudorf is an idiot. By whining a few weeks before the event, she’s already begun to solidify the movement’s resolve to be there. I plan on being there wearing my sandwich board- and I’ll be damned if she, or any police officer is going to tell me I don’t have a right to be there.
The Occupy Movement’s real motivation is to enlighten the 99% of the wholesale illegal transfer of wealth though government-sponsored policies that have made our country a third world debtor nation on the brink of collapse. The Sandy Gudorfs of the world have helped banks take our homes, our jobs and destroy our standard of living.
In fact, one of the main reasons the “Grande Illumination” has grown in scale over the recent years is because it’s a free event- something nice people can do who can’t afford a Christmas tree or as many presents as they used to give thanks to the wizards of Wall Street and our sold-out politicians.
I urge you to join me in protesting with the Occupy movement on Nov. 25th at Courthouse Square.
As a shameless plug: my ad agency, The Next Wave has produced some stickers to show your support of the movement and is donating 20% of each sale to the local movement. Stickers are 99¢ each and available at: www.stickittothe1percent.com
[UPDATE]After a few days- Gudorf is now only asking for the tents to go – not the protesters- at least, that’s what I’m interpreting.
That’s an acceptable position – but- the protest can and should still go on.
@Shortwest Rick added this video to the discussion- well worth watching:
Gotta disagree with you on this one David. I strongly agree with the sentiments of the movement (e.g. addressing income inequality, etc.), but I think Occupy Dayton is making a mistake and they certainly lost my support due to this issue. The video of them “talking” with Sandy Gudorf that was posted on Dayton Informer is an unflattering portrayal of Occupy Dayton, not Gudorf. In the video, the occupiers are rude, insulting, and ignorant – they completely lose any credibility with anyone who sees that video or this kind of behavior in general. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude that Sandy Gudorf wants to ban free speech. Occupy Dayton was offered a pretty reasonable compromise and encouraged to have a presence at the event. Instead of seizing a good opportunity to build good will and connect positively with a wide audience, their childish behavior severely undermines their cause. There is a difference between strengthening your resolve against adverse interests and acting like uncompromising whiny jackasses – one comes from courage, the other from ego. Occupy Dayton’s choice is one of spite, not wisdom. I will not be standing with them.
Occupy Dayton Says It Will Leave Courthouse Square If…
Only time will tell whether the title of this blog post is true, David. If thousands of people show up on November 25th in support of Occupy Dayton, then you’ll have been right that “Occupy Dayton IS the ‘Grande Illumination.'” Occupy Dayton has just under two weeks to get people more excited about protesting corporate greed than people have ever been about seeing a community Christmas tree being lit.
I don’t think that Sandy Gudorf was advocating a ban on free speech though. Or perhaps she’s way more clever than you give her credit for. She wasn’t saying to Occupy Dayton that they could have no presence whatsoever during the Grande Illumination. But perhaps she is so deviously clever that she knows that suggesting any limitation on the Occupation would stir up so much processing that she decided to endure attending a General Assembly in order to set her plan into motion.
As a member of a minority I know that just because the majority of the public vote a certain way it does not mean that they are right. However, numbers do count for something. For decades thousands of Daytonians (in the regional sense — people from the Dayton area who when traveling out of state and asked where they’re from will answer “Dayton, Ohio” if they’re smart and not “Washington Township, Ohio”) have gathered at Courthouse Square for the Grande Illumination. These people are the true 99%, and the Grande Illumination is something they care about.
Occupy Dayton can think of strategies to reach out to the 99% to make them want to join a cause that should be in the interest of the 99%, or Occupy Dayton can let Sandy Gudorf’s devious strategy work and find ways to let the 99% think Occupy Dayton is a fringe group. Time will tell which choice they make.
THAT artical is amazing, i agree with almost all of it yexcept, putting up the christmas tree is an example of free speach wheather she know it or not, putting up a christmas tree in a community of christians, athiests, jews, musslims, pegans, and sprirtual people is free speach because, the christams tree is a symbol of one religons symbol. so occupy dayton supports her right to free speach and the thousands of christians who celebrate christmas BRAVO spreak on, We will as well.
David: Is it no longer possible to make substantive points representing different viewpoints without demeaning comments, insults, and name calling?
I encourage anyone who has seen the media representation of Occupy Dayton and Sandy Gudorf’s interaction and came away thinking ill of OD to stay tuned. The GA just approved a counterproposal on the part of OD that puts all of this into perspective. OD agrees to step back from the square, and asks as a gesture of good will in return for the people at DDP to leverage their power to bring to pass a moratorium on foreclosures and evictions in Montgomery County. No one at OD wants to take away from this collective downtown experience (tree lighting) and frighten children or disrupt people’s holiday traditions. However, we wish to call to the DDP’s attention to the fact that a public tree does not replace a warm home in which to celebrate the holidays with your family.
DDP members include many of the lending institutions that are responsible for predatory practices in mortgage lending. These institutions are involved in the process of foreclosing on residents’ homes. It’s time for them to acknowledge that no matter how “generous” they are to sponsor a public tree lighting, there are far more pressing ways in which to exercise their philanthropic power.
This is the letter I emailed over to Sandy Gudorf immediately upon reading the DDN article:
Dear Sandy Gudorf,
I read your quote in the Dayton Daily News this morning at http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/occupy-dayton-protest-must-relocate-for-grande-illumination-1282937.html: “We respect their right to protest,” she said. “The kickoff of the holiday season isn’t the right place to make a political statement.”
I must disagree with you vehemently. This is a far more important and far-reaching issue regarding what is happening in the United States and here in Dayton today. The holidays are not going to change that – in fact, I imagine the few retailers you have downtown will feel the pinch even more so this year.
We have been trying to open a business in downtown Dayton since returning here three years ago, and run into issue after issue just trying to find a proper location that is not full of problems. Perhaps you should be focusing on getting the owners of so many empty buildings in downtown to get a more realistic view of what their property is honestly worth.
What will be your intention if the Occupy protesters do not vacate, as you have requested? Will you ask for riot-geared police to attack and beat them into submission as has been done in other cities? Undoubtably, stains of blood beneath the Christmas tree will amplify the holiday spirit.
Regards,
Thomas M. Nealeigh
As I think we all know, people like her (and the GOP potential candidates, the folks on Wall Street and so on) are willing to let “the little people” have their protests until it gets in the way of something THEY want to do, and then when it becomes inconvenient to THEM they can use their version of the “law” to beat everyone back down. Then they can go on pretending everything is fine. Never mind how much WE have been inconvenienced by lack of jobs, losing our investments, and watching our country (and city) swirl the bowl despite trying to do everything WE can.
Smells of fascism.
Here’s a list of folks on the DDP board:
http://www.downtowndayton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84
CO-CHAIRS:
Mayor Gary Leitzell* – City of Dayton
Dr. Michael Ervin* – Oregon Arts District
Kathy Barenbrugge – Junior League of Dayton
Edward Bentley* – Deloitte
Richard Broock* – Dinsmore & Shohl LLP
Steven Budd – CityWide Development Corporation
Ron Budzik* – Dayton Business Committee
Jim Carpenter – Liberty Savings Bank
Bob Curry* – Thompson Hine LLP
Judy Dodge* – Montgomery County Commission
Mark Donaghy* – Greater Dayton RTA
Diane Ewing – Premier Health Partners
Debbie Feldman* – Montgomery County
Michael Greitzer* – Past Co-Chair
Marinko Gvozdanovic – THMG 10 West Second Street, LLC
Jeff Hoagland – Dayton Development Coalition
Paul Hutchins – Parking Management Inc. (PMI)
Madeline Iseli – Sinclair Community College
William Kramer* – Downtown Dayton Special Improvement District
Jesse Livesay – Dayton Area Board of Realtors
Mike Martin – Kamela & Company Realty
Bob Miller* – Excellence in Motivation
Bear Monita – LWC, Incorporated
Irvin Moscowitz – Burhill Leasing
Ken Neufeld – Victoria Theatre Association
Dan O’Donnell – PNC Bank
Phillip Parker, CAE – Dayton Area Chamber of Commerce
Steven Petitjean – Fifth Third Bank
Ed Reilly – KeyBank
Allan Rinzler – Talbott Tower
Tim Riordan* – City of Dayton
Greg Scott – City Plan Board
Dr. David Smith* – Community Blood Center/Tissue Services
Tony Taylor – Crest Commercial Realty
Dr. Craig Thiele – CareSource
Stacy Thompson – Dayton Public Schools
Sam Warwar* – Coolidge Wall
John Watson* – Brower Insurance Agency
Brian West – Downtown Dayton Holdings, LLC
Nan Whaley – City of Dayton
Edd Wimsatt – Price Stores
Sue Zickefoose – CB Richard Ellis, Inc.
*Executive Committee
David, next time, don’t include a link to the DDN article lest people might read it and see more than the parts you selectively include in your article.
And like Bill Love says, it seems like lately you’ve gotten a lot worse about personal attacks. You’ll say it’s “factual” though, therefore it’s okay, right ?
That list reads like a who’s who of Dayton’s 1 percent.
I’m sorry, but after watching OD’s childish actions when presented a perfectly logical solution for all shows clearly OD feels they’re entitled to do as they damned well wish. DDP has permission from the county to set up the tree, and have the grand illumination. Nothing that I’ve seen shows OD having permission to “occupy” public property. They claim to represent the “99%” of America, the “99%” of America I’m part of deals with addressing their issues through the process that our country has had in place for well over 230 years. Standing there throwing a hissy fit ain’t the way. The Tea Party was vilified as “terrorists” and “racists.” Called “monochromatic” by the left, because there wasn’t a representative body of all races in out country as part of the crowd. Kinda looks to me like OD seems pretty segregated as well. But my question is, if the people feel so sure of their message, so proud to be out there, what’s with the masks and using bandanas to cover their faces? I’ve read their FaceBook page, where they complain about electric power being cut to outlets in the square. Why should someone be carrying them, providing their power for any and all electrical devices they have there? I saw one comment about the ease of cutting into light strings to steal power after the tree is decorated. Oh, so if someone doesn’t carry the load for them to run their devices, it’s cool to destroy property and steal power? Gee, that’s real American. Freedom of speech does not give you the right to break the laws all Americans are expected to follow. When the Tea Party held events, they were required to obtain permission to use public spaces, up to and including putting down cash bonds to cover any damage to public property during their events. Why is this movement allowed to do as they wish without following the same rules? What of the drain on public services being used to provide security for them? The more of this I see, the more… Read more »
@Bill Love- I assume you were talking to me and not David Lauri. The Downtown Dayton Partnership has been a complete failure since it’s beginnings under Turner. We’ve seen a massive exodus out of downtown- both because income tax can be cut by 1/2 to 2.25% by moving to other areas- and because the DDP is funded by additional property taxes raising the cost of space downtown.
They throw 2 parties a year that are successful. They’ve not managed to change the perception or revitalize downtown- and now, they want to tell people what to say and think while they light their Christmas tree?
The “Occupy spokesman” in the DDN clip wasn’t exactly the best choice- but, then again- would Dean Lovelace have made a better impression- probably not.
As someone who has been arrested for making a legal protest- I full well know what happens when you mess with the first amendment- and neither City Hall nor the DDP can afford to go through the courts on this.
It’s a public meeting space- when you start dictating what can and can’t be said in public- that’s not an America I want to live in- and quite frankly, I’ve sworn an oath to defend and protect the document that makes free speech possible.
She’ll have to arrest me- or shoot me to get me off that square during her little party, and for those of you who don’t think that I have the right to say it- it’s time for you to take a citizenship test.
The occupy “spokesman” wasn’t as ignorant acting as many in the crowd. It just seems to me you build more goodwill with the people if you’re willing to work within the system. But suit yourself, make sure you’re right there and act as childish as these people did to a simple request.
Nobody said anything about limiting anyone’s right to free speech, or is Dave Hall Plaza way out in the country away from everything? It wasn’t the last time I ventured through downtown. I’d think sleeping on the grass would be a lot more comfortable than concrete. And now they’re discussing bringing straw or hay down to the square to provide insulation? Fine, then arrest them all for littering.
See, the argument, as I see it anyway, is that OD (and you clearly) feel the DDP, DPD, and any and everybody needs to cater to your wishes above the wishes of the rest of society. You and others have complained about the DPD officer asking the occupy people to return from the square, and off the sidewalk across the street from the square. Don’t the owners of businesses have the right to have their customers enter their businesses without being harassed by the demonstrators? Do their rights somehow trump the rights of a business owner?
You’re allowed your right to free speech, you’re not allowed the right to be assholes.
@ Pat: They would argue that the First Amendment trumps all local attempts to curb speech or require permits to assemble and air grievances.
And I think the Tea Party folk earned the terrorist moniker from bringing guns to Obama speeches, and various other “my penis is so small, I need to carry around this gun,” type of actions.
Then, if free speech trumps attempts to curb the actions of those wishing to address their grievances, someone owes people who were required to get permits and pay bonds some money. There were no Tea Party “folk” who brought guns to Obama speeches. The most famous picture depicting guns at any event was one of a young man carrying a rifle, slung over his shoulder, as a soldier does in a parade. Hardly any show of force, unless you consider the presence of a firearm as some sort of a threat. I contend any firearm is a tool, and whether they’re a threat or not depends on the mindset of the person who has it. The media tried to portray the person as a Tea Party member, and the event was a Town Hall meeting on the Health Care. I might add the person was outside, likely 1,000 feet or more from the BUILDING Obama was speaking at. Had it been any sort of problem, I’m sure the Secret Service would have disarmed the man, and arrested him. The media tried to make it appear the young man was white as well, through skillful editing of video. The young man was Black, and was a “9-11 Truther.” But thanks for bringing insults against people who would choose to carry a firearm into the fray. There were no reports of violence at Tea party events, save for a single incident where a SEIU member assaulted a Black Tea Party member. Just like there is a First Amendment, there is also a Second Amendment, which assures any law-abiding citizen to possess, use, and (gasp), even CARRY firearms. Anyone can do it in Ohio if they are not legally barred from owning a firearm. Open carry is completely legal in Ohio, just as it is in Arizona, the site of the only incident of a firearm openly carried at an event where Obama was present. I’d defend to the death your right to freedom of speech, and actually served in the military to assure you that right. But, I’ll… Read more »
If you honestly believe that it’s within the DDP’s rights to use the color of law to influence the OD group, and the OD group not to get upset, then maybe you do not understand human nature. The fact that DDP came to the GA and proposed we leave for no other good reason but “it wasn’t a place to make a political statement,” is ridiculous. Using language insinuating that OD was “allowed to occupy the square,” knowing full well that it is a public place, thus under the first amendment, OD has the “rights of the people to peaceably assemble” wherever they choose. Just because you, or anyone you know, does not exercise their rights, except on the Internet from the comfort of your own home, does not mean that OD should have to do anything but stay. Leaving would be giving up their right, thus, since they seem to be the only ones exercising this right in the public at the moment, you would as well be giving up your right, now or in the future, by endorsing such a blasphemous attack on the rights we reserve as citizens.
Make your own conclusions, obviously no one can change anyone’s mind, but the DDP, even though have a permit, does not trump us, OD, utilizing the rights we already have as citizens. Great, they have a permit, then I guess we shall see them there. If you would like to give up your rights by endorsing such a thing, please, by all means, but know there is nothing more American than enforcing the rights given to us under the Constitution. To believe otherwise is foolish, cowardly, and a fainthearted move as a supposed American.
Your side continues to insist you have the right to “occupy” a space, wherever you wish, simply because that’s your desire. But, should a group you disagree with, such as the KKK were to do the same, you’d be protesting them being allowed to do so. Actually, the older gentleman at the meeting between Ms. Gudorf had the most logical place to “occupy”, if you really want to appear relevant. That would be Oakwood, Centerville, or neighborhoods in Washington Township. THAT is where those evil bastard “1%” folks live. If you would like to give up your rights by endorsing such a thing, please, by all means, but know there is nothing more American than enforcing the rights given to us under the Constitution. To believe otherwise is foolish, cowardly, and a fainthearted move as a supposed American. So, I’ll expect to see you there at the next Second Amendment Day over in Columbus, since you’re so intent on supporting our rights? Clearly, as evidenced by the comments I saw last evening on the OD FaceBook page for OD in reply to statements by David Williams, you folks don’t care much for gun owners. But you proclaim you are the representatives of the “99%”? You do realize that likely 99% of gun owners also make up the “99%”? You’re so inclusive of all, yet you choose to insult those who don’t agree with you? Huh, imagine that! I just question what end-game you envision your efforts will bring about. You’re not going to get a end to foreclosures, people who signed contracts to buy houses did so willingly, nobody forced them to sign the mortgage papers. Nobody forced people to take out college loans. Believe it or not, in the real world, your actions do have consequences. If you take out loans, you’re expected to pay back what you owe, or give up the property you bought, or see your wages garnisheed (or income tax returns seized) to pay off your debts. Pretty much what I see advocated by the occupy movement is a change from… Read more »
Pat writes falsely: “Your side continues to insist you have the right to “occupy” a space, wherever you wish, simply because that’s your desire.”
No, they choose to Occupy a space because it is their constitutional right for citizens to peaceably assemble to air grievances. And they only “occupy” public spaces.
You are either dishonest, or you haven’t read up Pat.
Pat also writes: “Nobody forced people to take out college loans. Believe it or not, in the real world, your actions do have consequences. If you take out loans, you’re expected to pay back what you owe, or give up the property you bought, or see your wages garnisheed (or income tax returns seized) to pay off your debts.”
Nobody forced banks to deal in toxic derivatives either. You have to pay off your debts, unless of course, you are a bank or other large institution. Then the government bails you out because you paid for all of the politicians.
Sorry bud, you bought the Kool-Aid. Your vision is one of a slave who bought into what his slave masters taught him, and can only think within’ the confines of a slave.
The American economy is crashing big time, and a new world will emerge from the corporate shit pit of empty strip malls and dreams the Baby Boom has left us to deal with.
It’s simply nature. Roll with it.
Personally, yes I am a multiple gun owner. Bad assumption. And what a poor example to use the KKK as your illustration of supporting peoples Constitutional rights..
Actually, the ACLU has defended the right of the KKK to peaceably assemble and air grievances, just as the ACLU has defended the right of many other groups (liberal and conservative) to peaceably assemble and air grievances.
Also, guns are for sissies. They offer no protection in a world whose only guarantee is death.
I think OD should have squatting rights at Dave Hall Plaza, but have a presence on the Square if so desired, as could anyone else. I do take issue with Ms. Gudorf’s statement that the Old Courthouse and its square is “not the place for political statement.” Dayton has a Lincoln Society based almost solely on the fact that Lincoln was a cool guy who happened to address the Dayton-area community on the steps of the Old Courthouse during his presidential campaign in 1859. Other presidents who have visited the spot are Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard M. Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. I doubt these fellows came here to do anything BUT make political statements. That tidbit aside, it seems DDP and OD should be able to come to an amicable agreement on this one.
@Pat- I used the KKK as an example, because my mask case with the city of Dayton has been used as precedent for the KKK- despite the fact that the ACLU wouldn’t lift a finger to help me (and they were asked)- btw- I won all 5 court cases on that.
Limiting political speech is a very slippery slope- and one which the DDP is way out of their place in requesting. What will the damage be if someone shows up wearing an American flag? Or dressed up as a Nazi? Who makes the decision on what is appropriate? You don’t want to go down this rabbit hole.
The #OD movement has as much right to be there as any of us- and making a political statement is fine. As long as they don’t try to chant over the event- or stick flyers in everyone’s hands- have at it. Silent protest- symbolic speech is the most powerful tool of all. When you know your message needs to be heard- saying it quietly can have the biggest reverberations.
I have always questioned the need for the DDP- another “quasi government” slush fund- that is allowed to use tax dollars without voter oversight. Now that they believe they are above the constitution seals the deal- it’s time for them to go.
@ David Esrati – Your original post and your followup responses are mirroring the exact same mistake the members of the Occupy Dayton group are making: you are making this personal and not about issues that are central to the agenda of the overall Occupy movement. This is a poor strategy and a disingenuous attempt to try to prove a point, supposedly about free speech. It is an emotional response to an otherwise reasonable and relatively minor request related to a community event. This response is wrecking the public image of OD and quickly turning the community off to their message. This is the wrong battle to fight and a poor way to fight it.
I say let the OD people remain at the square during the “Grande Illumination” and see what kind of reaction they get from the people who attend. If they don’t show support, the crowd will be proclaimed part of the 1%; if they do support the OD people, they’ll be the 99%.
As for the KKK example, you can’t pick and choose who is allowed to “occupy” or protest or assemble. If OD is allowed, but say that the KKK isn’t, they’re hypocrites.
“The reason I talk to myself is that I’m the only one whose answers I accept.” George Carlin
George Carlin is the Plato of the modern age!
Pat, you wrote: “I just question what end-game you envision your efforts will bring about. You’re not going to get a end to foreclosures, people who signed contracts to buy houses did so willingly, nobody forced them to sign the mortgage papers. Nobody forced people to take out college loans. Believe it or not, in the real world, your actions do have consequences. If you take out loans, you’re expected to pay back what you owe, or give up the property you bought, or see your wages garnisheed (or income tax returns seized) to pay off your debts.” Read the book “Debt: The First 5000 Years” by David Graeber. It outlines very clearly how humans have always had systems of debt and credit – even prior to any sort of currency. I’m an anthropologist, and I think that when one makes statements of the nature you do here, one must ground one’s understanding in empirical facts. Throughout the world we see invented strategies of debtor and creditor. From the IMF and the World Bank holding formerly colonized nations hostage all over Africa to the most recent plunder of our economic base by a collusion between government agencies and big finance. Our economic world is restructuring itself at the moment. We don’t all agree on how this should happen, but nevertheless, it continues to take place around us. Who says that it is fair for one group of people to get a break while others cannot? Is it really too much to ask of a financial institution to restructure loans on property such that the residents can remain living there? Morality is at the heart of all economic matters. If you don’t believe me, look at all of the rhetoric and the word choice in conversations about Occupy Dayton. I’m not certain whose morality will win out in the end, but I hope it is a morality that emphasizes compassion and fairness and is rooted in mutual aid. If in the real world, actions have consequences, I hope we start to see some of these consequences soon. Occupy Dayton’s request for… Read more »
Greetings from Upstate NY, (downtown Rochester, to be exact) I’ve been traveling the Northeast visiting various Occupations, and I am seeing a mix of support and opposition and limitations on these events. In Worcester, Mass, the Occupiers have been arrested when they tried o Occupy a green or square in the center of town. In Scranton, PA they are directly on their courthouse square, and are receiving support from the local public safety folks, particulary the Firefighters. In Albany the mayor supports and it appears they are trying for a voted resolution of support from their “county legistlature” (which is I think their county government…one of these was at their GA this Sunday). The Albany occupiers even have patio heaters on site, possibly donated by local nightclubs. In I think in Providence they actually have a permit to Occupy. As an indication of local support, the Occupy Syracuse group is handing out a walking tour of their downtown published by, I think, the local BID. In Bethlhem, however, one of the Occupiers think they are going to be evicted soon due to Christmas coming and that Bethlehem has a big tourist season as it’s the Christmas City and the Occupiers are near the Moravain Quarter, which draws a lot of tourists. Yet, more oftne than not, accomodations being made. So I think some sort of accomodation could be made in Dayton Seems like the Dayton Occupiers are looking for a statment of support from the DDP for a major local issue–the foreclosure crisis– that is directly related to the financial crisis and to the urban tailspin the City of Dayton is in, in return for their temporarily vacating the space. Seems like a resonable thing. And the Foreclosure issue is animating a number of local Occupations. The Occupy Boston group is networking with a pre-existing community group to work on this issue, and the Albany group is taking it on, too. I also saw it surface at Zuccotti Park when i was down there. Occupy Dayton. Since 1 out of every 4 structures in Dayton is vacant I think it would be a great idea… Read more »
When the KKK wanted to have a demonstration in downtown Dayton, authorities had them jumping through every hoop they could find to discourage them. They required they obtain permission to use public space in downtown. How is it your side feels they’re better than anyone else. Because, if any of you were politically active at that time, you were likely in the counter-protest held directly across from the KKK demonstration. That said, I most certainly disagree with the KKK’s message, however, no matter how vile I feel their message to be, I’d be forced to support their right to express their point of view. Nobody forced banks to deal in toxic derivatives either. You have to pay off your debts, unless of course, you are a bank or other large institution. Then the government bails you out because you paid for all of the politicians. Not really true: http://spectator.org/archives/2009/02/06/the-true-origins-of-this-finan But I’m sure you’ll claim this article is incorrect because it isn’t from a source that parrots the talking points of the left. Both side of the political divide caused our economy to fall to where it is today, yet I’m not seeing the occupy movement condemn the left, just those mean nasty Republicans. You’re quick to condemn people who worked, and risked their own money to build their wealth, but seemingly love the left-leaning entertainers who voice your agenda. Aren’t they part of the “1%” as well? Yes, banks and financial entities were bailed out, reportedly, even from the Obama team, those bailouts have been payed back in full, and even resulted in a profit to the government. The same can’t be said of the auto bailout, they may have repaid some of the money, but they flat raped investors who owned stock in the companies, and held capital improvement bonds on their properties. They just wrote off that debt. There’s a lot wrong with the way Washington works, judging from the political stance the occupy movement seems to endorse, the very people you worked to elect in 2008 not only didn’t… Read more »
Assuming from your interpretation on the movement, you obviously only want to believe certain things about it. Media outlets of the Left? lolz. Who honestly watches the news anymore? Well obviously you do sir. “Those nasty Republicans” are fitting the bill for themselves. It’s not Left, not Right, but forward. Once you understand that this “two-party” system that your mind seems to inhabit, the faster you will move away from the finger-pointing, and actually move towards a solution.
We’re not “Left,” here is a good source to prove that. http://wepartypatriots.com/wp/2011/11/09/get-a-what-a-job-70-of-occupy-wall-streeters-are-employed-compared-to-56-of-tea-partiers/
My generation finds it’s own information, versus being spoon-fed loads of Left/Right bias info.
Oh God, you’re hilarious! So, business has no right to influence how politicians are elected, and should not be allowed to contribute to political races? But unions have every right to do so?
And since your own graphs show occupy movement people are younger, and Tea Party members are older, how much of a surprise is it that Tea Party members would have more wealth? They’ve worked a helluva lot longer to acquire it.
The last I knew, you didn’t start working at the top pay grade for any job. Over the years, after demonstrating your abilities, you get raises. You save money, and invest it.
But thanks for the link, showing your political heroes with the usual lies about the Tea Party (and I’m hardly a member of that movement either). Somehow, it was patriotic to criticize Bush, yet to criticize Obama is racist? Way to build support!
I used it only for the demographics on our political party preference. Nice job taking things out of context. I could care less if the 300,000 tea-partyist have more wealth. Does it really make a difference? Because they certainly did not.
Then why does the one graph state 56% are “wealthier?” About the only thing the graphs prove is the obvious fact an older person who has worked for years quite likely make more money than a person who hasn’t been in the work force nearly as long. Oh, and that since “those” people don’t agree with you, they’re somehow “bad.” That younger people in America just might be more educated as a whole than an older generation? Thank You Mr. Obvious! And guess what, my generation is better educated than our parents were. In my family’s case, my father was forced to quit school after the 8th grade to work on the farm. In my case, the only college fund I had available was to join the military and get the GI Bill education benefits. And trust me, you couldn’t attend school and exist on those checks, it paid mainly my books and tuition. Living expenses required getting a job.
I suppose you actually believe education gives your generation more insight, and makes you better equipped to make sound decisions. Nope, it means you learned how to look up answers to questions, and what book to look for the answer in (or computer file, since books are so “old school”, and dated sources of information). Just knowing how to “Google” doesn’t make you superior either.
Myself, I use on-line sources for my news, reading the same stories slanted through either political point-of-view, and independent sources. Mainly to see the lies embedded by the politically biased sources into any story.
I would agree with your last paragraph to a degree. Other than that, like I said, I posted that article for the political reasons, not to show the “wealth” of either side. That was your prerogative to decide how to use that information. Solidarity.
@Jeff: I’m not surprised there’s LGBTQ involvement in Occupations around the country. We queers are indeed everywhere, and there are queers involved in Occupy Dayton (Parris Hobbs and John Gantt are two I know of).
I work downtown, and am frankly tired of seeing the “occupy dayton” people lounging around all day yelling at passing cars while I’m working to provide their welfare checks. They must be on some form of assistance, because they obviously arent working while “hanging out on the square”. As for the Grande Illumination, it is a holiday tradition that many families look forward to every year, and your selfishness in trying to ruin what has become a family tradition for generations is revolting. If I ever had any inkling to support your cause, it is gone with this recent demonstration of your ignorance.
@Crystal Johnson – HA! How ignorant a person can be! You are the epitome of ignorance. I work, go to school over full time for a double major, all the while collecting no support. Maybe if you went & talked to anyone down there you would know that. But, of course you would rather make dumbass remarks like, “collect their welfare checks that I pay for.” Derp.
If I ever had any inkling to support your cause,
Lulz
Ugh… can’t resist. Too… many… inaccurate… generalizations… and… misinformation. @Pat “I just question what end-game you envision your efforts will bring about. You’re not going to get a end to foreclosures, people who signed contracts to buy houses did so willingly, nobody forced them to sign the mortgage papers.” You’re right no one forced them to sign, but as a former notary who was present for over 100 signings on home loan documents I can definitely tell you that it made me uneasy seeing the process by which these papers were signed, and I had little to no knowledge of what it was these people were signing (I’m not a lawyer). To call the banks predatory and ruthless in their lending practices would be fairly mild in terminology in my opinion. They should be held accountable, and that’s what this movement would like to see happen, as well the creation of laws to make this despicable behavior from taking place in the future. Why can’t it succeed in ending the awful practice of banks foreclosing instead of refinancing? Many judges around the country have already placed moratoriums on foreclosures, and as J. Dziwulski stated it’s already being offered as a bargaining chip by Occupiers. Watch this news video on protestors in Atlanta coming to the aid of a police officer whose home was foreclosed on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrhGNl4UX4&feature=related “Pretty much what I see advocated by the occupy movement is a change from our capitalistic society to one more socialist in nature.” Not so. We want capitalism that doesn’t marginalize the many to enrich the few. We want capitalism that is responsible to the people, not the current system that exploits them. “I might point out the fact that Dayton has fallen from it’s former glory under mostly all liberal leadership, though it seems your side tends to ignore the effect of such leaders to our city and country.” Dayton fell when the rest of the country did, it had nothing to do with local liberal leadership (if you really want to call it that). There was, however, a federal conservative government… Read more »
Serioulsy, we could be looking at a mass arrest pretty soon.
On my travels to the different Occupy groups I picked up a flyer on how to address this, how to set up affinity groups, contact numbers, legal teams, etc, in preperation for being arrested during civil disobedience (might even need a bail fund, if the legal system decides to hold them pending bail).
So maybe a “Freinds of Occupy Dayton” support group needs to be set up, so we get the Occupiers out of custody ASAP, so there are people on the outside waiting to help out when the police come.
If
Had an idea today as I visited Occupy LSX (that’s London England) outside St. Paul’s Cathedral.
It’s getting cold- camping isn’t the object here- it’s to have a protest round the clock. Since Dayton is also cold- and it’s the Downtown Dayton Partnership’s job to fill up vacant space downtown- and bring commerce back- why doesn’t Ms. Gudorf (who besides not understanding the Constitution isn’t a total idiot- I guess I was a bit harsh) arrange for the Occupy group to take up space in the empty storefronts downtown- like the one that used to have CVS in it below Citywide development (another Quasi-governmental tax supported slush fund with no voting oversight).
She would actually be “activating space” downtown and even helping commerce- since the Occupation needs to eat- buy supplies etc.
Just a suggestion.
But- I stand firm- there will be no banning of political speech on Courthouse Square during her Soiree- not unless we get the banks to stop throwing people out of homes without mortgage adjustments- or some other compromise.
I did notice the Occupy Wall Street certainly avoided going around Obama’s appearance in NYC, while going to the homes of people they consider the “1%.” The only occupy presence I’ve even heard of around Obama is the Hawaiian singer over the weekend.
In that case, then it’s clear public service unions NEVER worked for the people, they worked for their members only. If not, there wouldn’t be video out there of union officials throwing out the threat in negotiations with government officials “we put you into office, and we’ll put you out of office.” We had a great example locally after Idotha “Bootsie” Neal refused to support the trade unions in regard to the building of Fifth Third Field and their push to have preferred labor agreements for all construction at the stadium. The very next election, the Democrats refused to endorse her (Tom Ritchie, head of the city unions was head of the board of elections), and all unions threw their support behind the party choice of candidate, Matt Joseph.
Then we shouldn’t allow single-issue groups to be involved in campaigns as well. Planned Parenthood shouldn’t have the clout to have an entire evening at the Democratic Party Convention. Funny, as much power as some claim the NRA has, there’s never been an NRA Night at the Republican Party Convention.
It doesn’t matter what happens with OccupyDayton and the Grand Illumination. Just the fact that the sponsors of the Grand Illumination had to publically request “permission” from “OccupyDayton” – whoever or whatever that is – is going to convince people who were otherwise considering going downtown to attend that they should not attend.
OccupyDayton is just another part of the “don’t come downtown” message that was reinforced for years by mobs of school kids innundating Main Street because that was the only “practical” transportation system for Dayton Public Schools.
Ironic that a guy who moans vacancies downtown is right in the middle of it. This is called “pissing in your own soup”, Mr. Esrati.
Austin Interchange anyone?
It doesn’t matter what happens with OccupyDayton and the Grand Illumination. Just the fact that the sponsors of the Grand Illumination had to publically request “permission” from “OccupyDayton” – whoever or whatever that is – is going to convince people who were otherwise considering going downtown to attend that they should not attend. I don’t believe I’d consider it the DDP requesting permission from Occupy Dayton so much as trying to deal with what stands to be a major issue if they don’t leave the square for that time period. I saw it more as a willingness to deal with the protestors, assuming they’d act like adults. Gee, that wasn’t a great idea, was it? I disagree with government officials kissing the asses of people who refuse to act like something other than a really spoiled 3 year old. Ironic that a guy who moans vacancies downtown is right in the middle of it. Even more ironic when you consider this idea from David: It’s getting cold- camping isn’t the object here- it’s to have a protest round the clock. Since Dayton is also cold- and it’s the Downtown Dayton Partnership’s job to fill up vacant space downtown- and bring commerce back- why doesn’t Ms. Gudorf (who besides not understanding the Constitution isn’t a total idiot- I guess I was a bit harsh) arrange for the Occupy group to take up space in the empty storefronts downtown- like the one that used to have CVS in it below Citywide development (another Quasi-governmental tax supported slush fund with no voting oversight). I’d rather see the city use their convict contractor to demolish the building than to see that happen. I do plan to talk to every homeless person I see though and encourage them to “occupy” part of the square, setting up tents (wonder if we can get some donations of tents, camping stoves, etc.), and tell people they’re protesting not having any home (or money to buy one). If squatting is cool for the occupy folks, it sure as hell ought to be for… Read more »
If Daytonians want Occupy Dayton to leave Courthouse Square for The Holiday Festival, all they have to do is show up at the Occupy Dayton General Assembly with enough people and vote for Occupy Dayton to move.
They hold an open democracy vote and forum that anyone in the community can participate in. Following the democratic will of the people is one of the main tenants of the movement, from what I understand. Why is everyone arguing about this, when all it would take is about 50 people to win a landslide election for Occupy Dayton to leave for the Holiday Festival.
…I think the Tea Party folk earned the terrorist moniker from bringing guns to Obama speeches…(Yowza)
…though Tea Party types tend not to use them on other demonstrators, such as the late Kayode Ola Foster who was shot dead at Occupy Oakland, or themselves, such as Joshua Pfenning who killed himself at Occupy Vermont. But who needs firearms when one can set fire to another demonstrator, or crack a cranium with a tent pole, as was the case over the weekend at Occupy LA. And the late urban outdoorsman Michael Manhard, who did understand the dangers of putting a propane heater in a tent at Occupy Salt Lake. And that’s the beauty of the Occupy movement, Yowza, you not only get an incoherent list of grievances that only behemoth government can solve, but a body-count as well. But concerning your other allegation, Yowza, research fails to produce any findings on the size of Pfenning’s dick…
…just how arrogant, self-important and patronizing does one have to be to claim to speak for 99 percent of the population? Disagreement and contrariness are in the DNA of Americans who debate the vices and virtues of everything from boxers versus briefs to General Tsao’ chicken with and absent MSG. The ultimate aim of the occupiers is taking something from somebody else who they, in their wisdom worthy of Mount Olympus, doesn’t think is deserved with the blackjack of big and confiscatory government doing the dirty work. Methinks that in the competition of ideas, the occupiers will find their message of more government with the power to grab everything one has on the whim of the self-appointed will be a hard sell…
@Pat – would you or would you not agree with this assessment ?
http://youtu.be/eAdsdlq42nE
Dayton Citizen Mike Perkins interest in the occupy movement has convinced him to start working on actual local projects to benefit his neighborhood. Perkins, who has started his own occupy protest on Edwin C. Moses Blvd., wants to help small, locally owned businesses fill the empty buildings of his Wright-Dunbar neighborhood.
@Ice Bandit
“The ultimate aim of the occupiers is taking something from somebody else who they, in their wisdom worthy of Mount Olympus, doesn’t think is deserved with the blackjack of big and confiscatory government doing the dirty work.”
Actually that’s not it at all. Why is it that people keep pushing the same old misunderstood b.s. when you clearly have not done any research or read anything of value concerning what it is that Occupy Wall Street is actually about. It’s like you saw some biased youtube video and said “Oh now I’ve got it all figured out… they’re obviously a bunch of teenage socialist / anarchists.” Leading once again to blanket statements and completely untrue generalizations. Yes, there are some socialists and anarchists among the demonstrators, however, I would be very surprised if they came even one iota close to representing the movement as a whole.
Maybe it’s time to move away from your Fox News comfort zone and actually visit some sites or read some news that you know isn’t already going to reinforce the opinions you already have. It’s why I watch Fox News, so I have a fact based understanding of an issue from both sides and know for sure what it is that I disagree with… and shockingly, sometimes I even see myself finding common ground with them. You are aware there a numerous overlaps between what Occupy wants and what the Tea Party wants don’t you? (Many differences too of course).