Leitzell’s first folly
I like Gary Leitzell. I even liked Rhine McLin- both nice people. I’m sure that Gary isn’t on the take- and has the people’s best interests at heart. But today he announced his “Leadership Council”- and I’m really wondering how this group is going to come up with BIG ideas. Especially after hearing Mr. Leitzell on the campaign trail talking about helping start 1000 small businesses- something that doesn’t seem to be well represented on this “council.”
From today’s DDN:
Mayor Gary Leitzell, today, Jan. 26, announced the founding of his Leadership Council, a diverse 17-member committee of community leaders who are acknowledged experts in their respected fields.
“The Leadership Council marks a bold step in Dayton’s long recovery process. The Council, which is composed of some of Dayton’s best and brightest minds, will meet regularly to discuss ideas and strategies that can help further spur our economic turnaround,” Leitzell said.
The council’s purpose, according to its mission statement, is to foster economic development and growth in the city by undertaking independent initiatives and by providing advice and counsel to the Mayor….
The members of the Dayton Mayor’s Leadership Council
* David H. McDonald (Co-Chair), president, The McDonald Group LLC
* Jeff Samuelson, AIA (Co-Chair), managing member, jz Companies
* Phillip L. Parker, CAE, CCE, president & CEO, Dayton Area Chamber of Commerce
* Gregory M. Gantt, Esq., partner, Allbery Cross Fogarty, chairman Montgomery County Republican Party
* Thomas A. Raga, vice president of advancement Sinclair Community College
* S. Ted Bucaro, government and regional relations director University of Dayton
* Anne Higdon, president, ISUS Corp.
* Larry E. Couchot, partner, Couchot Hogenkamp
* William Duncan, partner, Thorn, Lewis and Duncan Inc.
* Julie Liss-Katz, director of public affairs, Premier Health Partners
* Glenn Alexander, former Dayton Fire Chief
* Stacy M. Thompson, Dayton Public Schools board member, KeyBank Vice President
* Cassandra S. Mitchell, educator, Journalism/Mass Communications Instructor/Community Outreach Specialist/TV Producer & Host
* Steve LaFlame, union liaison
* Col. Tim Donohue, 88th Mission Support Group Commander, Wright-Patterson AFB
* Richard Haas, president, Grandview/Southview Hospital System
* Rev. Wilburt Shanklin, Living Word of Faith Church
In fact- I’m wondering why we’re still expecting government to solve our economic woes. Maybe if the City could actually concentrate on fundamental service delivery- and learn how to get out of the way of people who actually make things happen around here.
I think Anne Higdon and Jeff Samuelson are great choices- but, the load of Republicans- McDonald, Gantt, Raga (the ones I know about) are a mistake.
And because I put my money where my mouth is- I’d recommend either Jan Lepore Jennelson East End Community Services or Amy Radachi Rebuilding Together Dayton, Wesley Center director Dr. Robert Walker, Jim Gagnet of Pacesetter Painting and Coco’s Bistro, Bill Daniels of Pizza Factory and- believe it or not- some of the people who are paid by the City- like the City Manager Tim Riordan, the planning director John Gower, Steve Budd from CityWide.
I’d also look to some of the people from UpDayton, like Theresa Gasper who has helped turn South Park housing around almost by herself.
The key to making this really work- is not picking people who expect to be on it- like Phil Parker- who already are supposed to be part of the system. But to pick people who are self-starters, the type of people who start the small businesses in this city- and mine them on their secrets. MVH, Sinclair, UD- already have the ability to speak with a big stick.
Let’s pass that stick around.
Your thoughts?
It seems a bit of a conflict of interest to have higher ups of two major development companies as the co-chairs of the a ‘Leadership Council’ tasked with advising the mayor on economic (and would assume physical) development of the city.
I understand the need for experience but having a better mix at the top might lend the group more impartiality.
This was an ok discussion. I think Gary’s team here is good in that it brings in a lot of voices that are not accustomed to City Hall but could help leverage the city’s standing in the region.
David, you make a good point when you mention the number of Republicans on the task force for a city that’s 90% Democrat. Maybe 90% Democrat is an exaggeration and I don’t really know how many of the people on the list are Republicans. Raga has a post at Sinclair in advancement (understandable); McDonald doesn’t seem like such a devil from what I can tell (wasn’t he with Leitzell in a DDN article awhile back?); and Gantt is a lawyer active in county-wide GOP politics (not many R’s on county commission last time I checked). Aside from disagreeing on election day with Gantt, I don’t know why the Scarlet Letter “R” has to be emblazoned on the whole group and deemed a “mistake.”
What I do know is that any city that is 90% one-party is in a dangerous position. What’s the phrase? “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.” That doesn’t mean more people should be Republican, but at least some intellectual curiosity on the Democrat side and more independent thinkers would be nice. Or at the very least, some competition for seats on City Commission (ahem, Dayton Process).
As the urban core and region reconnect because of their shared destiny, expect to see more R’s working in the core. That’s just the way it is when the city is “90% Democrat” and the suburbs are region is not.
Thought provoking as usual, keep it up.
David, even if the city of Dayton might be 90% Democratic, what difference does it make if the local Montgomery County Democratic Party is such an insider clique that it fails to represent the best interest of these Democrats, fails to nurture or develop the best and most thoughtful Democrats for positions of political leadership?
In order to develop leadership for Dayton, and for the whole county, we need to vitalize and reform the local Democratic Party. This is the year that county Democrats have an opportunity to reform their party via election to the Central Commitee at the Democratic Primary on May 4. At the subsequent Reorganization Meeting later in May officers will be selected and a new Constitution approved. It’s a shame that most county Democrats have no knowledge of this opportunity — that comes only once every four years. The deadline to get on the May 4 ballot is February 18. Why are you and Greg not discussing this?
@Seth- there are lots of Republicans who aren’t part of the political machine. Raga is a lobbyist, Gantt is the one who doesn’t run candidates – where are the entrepreneurs, the independent thinkers- hell, even academia or business process consultants?
There is one person on this list who I wouldn’t let ride on a trash truck- as a volunteer.
If these are the “problem solvers” Gary is bringing to the table- more than half of them are connected to organizations that threw money at his opponent.
Not a trace of a “regionalist” amongst them either.
As to Mr Bock- patience- to run for the central committee doesn’t even take signatures- I’ll get to it.
David, to be fair you should call Gary with your questions and suggestions and use that call as part of this story.
@Bruce-
Talked to the Mayor on Sunday- this didn’t come up. I e-mailed him the link. He’s welcome to respond.
David, agreed. Hopefully, something positive and tangible will come from this leadership group. It’s time the people organize to improve Dayton without having to be named to a position on a commission by a political leader. Knowing Gary, he is completely supportive of getting more people involved in the process (he himself is the best example of that concept), so I’m not too worried about this being a “folly.”
I’m glad to read Raga said this: “If we don’t have a mix, then we will look to add a Democrat to the group and we’ll do it pretty fast,” he said. “We don’t want anyone to say this is a Republican group.”
Maybe even more important news than his development group is his outreach to the black community, the West side and the NAACP. I hear he had a very warm welcome from the NAACP after his remarks to them at Westwood elementary.
From the DDN:
Leitzell, pledging to become a lifetime member of the NAACP during a meeting Monday night, Jan. 25, met with 30 or so members of the Dayton Unit and garnered a warm reception from them at Westwood Elementary School.
….
He also pledged to include representatives of the local National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in his economic development discussions.
David,
It is easy to be the critic. I would argue whether or not this is a “folly”. The reality is that I tasked David McDonald and Jeff Samuelson with the goal of putting this group together. This group was not selected because I know the people. The group was not selected by political party affilliation and the group was not selected for their popularity. They were selected for their intelligence and ability within their respective fields. If some do not work out, they will be excused and others will be invited. There will be other teams. I am trying to tap into what already exists versus re-inventing the wheel.
You of all people should know that I think about things differently and I do not necessarily do things for obvious reasons. You were certainly the first person to tell me I couldn’t be mayor without support from a political party and tons of money in my war chest!
Esrati is just jealous of the new Mayor of Dayton. And I love the quote regarding Dayton being mostly Democrates…. True, and this place has been on a decline for 50 years. Connect the dots folks – Democrates take, take, take. All they want is tax money to fund worthless programs.
At least he had the good sense to exclude any Most Metroids, who aren’t even that adept at self-promoting the own financial interests but excell in Richard Ford kant. A mayor’s most valuable asset is the names on her Rolodex. If Dayton wants to paint the soldier statues in front of Memorial Hall, then the current mayor will put the city in good stead. Besides that it’ll be more of the same ol’ okey doke.
@Gary- thanks for contributing- and I wish you the best of luck. There really is no winning in the picking-now that I think about it. It would be nice to be kept in the loop- with regular updates.
I’d also set targets for deliverables- so we see some real progress.
Granted I do not know all of the people but I have talked too and studied Phil Parker and neither of those qualifications can be applied to his performance, tenure or prognostications about Dayton or the Economy at Large. He is a partisan hack and would never consider any solution except those that fit his world view, so I would expect no “new solutions” only excuses.
Please note that I do agree that Daytonians will have to work together as we go forward, but do not make the mistakes of Obama by not addressing the needs of the people in order to maintain Business As Usual (BAU). You have selected a team that NEEDS BAU, so I expect no new ideas from this team, nor from you. I had hope for Obama, but when he selected Timothy Geithner as Treasury Secretary it was no change so I think we can apply the same issue to you.
Obama is to Leitzell as Geithner is to Parker.
@Greg H. and David E. – You guys judge this down on face value and what you know of the participants. Perhaps it would be better if you guys were able to interview Gary L, or some of the participants to get a better scoop on what they are up to and what to expect. So tell me this…if the council has a positive impact, and proves to be a building block in improving Dayton will you guys change your tune?
I have watched the City erode for 47 years and I have participated in plenty of these committees. They are all the same. Lipstick on a Pig. Until one discusses the implications of racism, the decline of cheap energy and emphasis on working together as a community; then there is no reason to make the deal. I was at the chamber and tried to get some of these issues discussed. Nothing, Nada only denigration. Phil Parker has not been correct about any economic forecast; however, he did help Reynolds & Reynolds move from Dayton to Kettering on the back of Dayton Public with the help of Gail (Foreclosure) Littlejohn. It is pathetic as I listened to this type of talk all the time. For instance the Gang of Preachers were denigrating Bill Nuti about his comment that NCR could not attract and maintain “top quality talent” to stay in Dayton and pointed out the presence of WSU, UD and WPAFB where talent could easily be recruited. Again, they do not get it. I TALK to these people, the people that create, the people that work at NCR, go to UD and come to the BASE. THEY hate Dayton because it is BORING. These people come here to UD or WPAFB because they cannot get into a more prestigious Catholic School and it has elements that people like. It is a self contained walkable community where you can drink eat and be merry without driving or much fear from the getting busted for underage drinking. The UD kids rarely leave the bubble and if they do it is out to the sanitized Greene. I could give you hundreds of examples of people leaving Dayton because they hate the lack of vibrancy the town offers. God I wish one time the alphabet soup of development groups would do an anonymous survey of “Why they came to this town.” And Why they are leaving. The reason they do not do it is because they would have to confront the idea that BAU is not working for the City of Dayton, nor its… Read more »
@Will and Gary- Gary has had a standing invite to appear- and- I’ve opened this up to many people. People are still gun shy to appear.
@ David – Then I hope Gary can find the time and make the point to be here. It would go a long way.
@ Greg – I understand your point of view better with the experiences you shared. Thanks. It does have a chance at failure, no doubt. Especially if this committee is all there is. It should lead to more efforts that will hopefully at some point begin to reverse the tide of people and businesses and possibly bring more of those to Dayton. Time will tell. But I would disagree with the “absolute” tone you have. There is a chance something successful could come out of it. It’s ok to be cynical but that feeling and perspective doesn’t doom it to follow all the other failures. Especially if some of the key players on the council understand the history.
Both GH and DE are just negative people, always dooms day, ahhhh!!! That is just the way they are. It would be fun to talk about postive things, but neither are capable of that. And it is not just Dayton, Greg. People want out of Pittsburgh and Cincy and Clev and Indy and St Louis, and cities smaller than these (Dayton sized) so get off the “people hate Dayton” thought. Some people do hate Dayton, some people hate life. People are just negative about places, unless it is DC or Boston or NYC or Chi or LA and a few other places. You could not pay me to live in any of those boring cities.
What Dayton needs, PLAIN AND SIMPLE, if businesses to located here, start here, relocate here, in all sorts of industy. Gary – that is all it needs. Nothing else. With new and existing business people will follow. Good people, not criminals. Working people, not sponges. Get the businesses here and all is solved.
Phil Parker has not been correct about any economic forecast; however, he did help Reynolds & Reynolds move from Dayton to Kettering on the back of Dayton Public with the help of Gail (Foreclosure) Littlejohn.
This is what’s damning about Dayton compared to Louisville. Louisvilles big white-collar element isn’t IT (which is Daytons), it’s insurance and a few corporate HQs. The insurance companies all stayed downtown. It was part of the corporate culture of Humana, one of the big employers, to remain committed to a downtown location, which is why, when their new skyscraper wasn’t big enough they moved into a renovated “Mendelsons” style loft factory on the riverfront (renovated into offices). Which is why Providian built a new skyscraper instead of relocating to a suburban campus. And why LG&E (now owned by the Germans) also built a new skyscraper downtown. Louisville has a 5% vacancy rate in downtown class A space. Dayton is..what..20-30%?
This is because the local buisness community…the Reynolds & Reynolds, Woolperts, and others, chose suburban locations rather than commit to the center city. I think there is one health care company that has filled up the old Miami Valley Tower. So good for them. And it took an outside corporation, Caresource, relocating from Richmond VA, to locate downtown.
I guess the response is to tear down more of downtown since this is what a recent DDN op-ed implied. But be clear why this is going to happen, because decisions made at the top of the local economic food chain over the past years was to reject the city as a business location vs comitting to it.
Jeff:
Then if Dayton wants to reverse that we really need to understand the reasons it looked like a good business decision to abandon the core.
Agreed, but it will circle back to the argument of “Why these are not the right people” The person I pointed out refuses to consider discussing any other reason for the decline of Dayton and ultimately the surrounding community. I think the community needs to understand the history and in order to do that all of the history should be put on the table and discussed. Phil has continued to deny this history and based on his “success” at maintaining his job, he is doing exactly what he is paid to do. So the only conclusion that one can draw is that the people paying his salary are making more money on “land deals” and gorging at the public trough of public infrastructure money than they are running successful businesses.
Hey Geno Is Dayton better off now than 10 years ago? If you can honestly say YES, then this is the right crew for you. But I have been saying that the decisions made 10 years ago were wrong and should not have been implemented. If my life and future would not be impacted by the collective stupidity of those involved, while enriching themselves, then I would not say a thing. I am glad that you have thrived as well as those around you during this time. Good For You.
Hollowed out urban cores are not specific to Dayton. It’s a nationwide trend that has been under way for decades. Suburban development drew residents while shopping malls and other developments sucked retail out of downtown USA. With suburban development came office plazas and others in vicinity to these developments.
Gene is right about something though: “What Dayton needs, PLAIN AND SIMPLE, if businesses to located here, start here, relocate here, in all sorts of industry.”
WB is right – this is a problem in many cities, bigger and smaller than Dayton. So blaming the “bigs” of Dayton is somewhat silly. They dropped the ball a bit, but that ball was a two hundred pound concrete ball. You can blame suburbia for the drain on the core, but where does it state that the core deserves to win? Why can’t Centerville grow? BC it hurts the core? Yes, so what. Some lose while others win. Downtown and Dayton were winning for many years over the farm lands. Times have changed.
Suburbia hurt the core, such is life. Many have a romantic notion of a downtown, but many DO NOT. Many like suburbuia, many hate downtowns. DTs don’t get to win by being first.
Dayton needs to fix Dayton, and ignore, for now, what the frick other places are doing. This pointing the finger and crybabying needs to be checked at the door. Move forward. And if Gary The Mayor wants a helpful hint, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT MAKING THINGS PERFECT, just move forward, towards a goal. Trying to make things “just so” takes too long, is a waste of money and resources, and kills spirit. 1000 small businesses? Do it and you will be king.
You are correct; however, there are less hollowed out urban cores than there should be. A hallowed out urban core occurs based on this formula
Growth of people is less than the Stupidity of the Developers/Elected.
Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Detroit are examples while this formula
Growth of people is Greater than the Stupidity of the Developers/Elected.
applies to NYC, Boston, Chicago, Louisville, Atlanta
Greg:
That’s too general to be useful. I doubt people were actually being stupid, more likely they were acting with rational self-interest. So what things about Dayton made a bunch of business owners acting with rational self-interest leave? Which of those things can we actually change?
Gene:
Exactly, so what tiny, incremental and pragmatic things can this crowd come up with? Dayton has a mayor now that says he’ll listen, so speak! Or the only ideas he’ll hear are the ones from the Leadership Council that folks (or at least Greg) seem to think is just the Business as Usual Crowd with a shiny new clubhouse.
I don’t think waiting for a charismatic leader to deliver vision from on high is a productive thing for the people of Dayton to do (I guess this is more of a response to the Steve Jobs fanboiing on the iPad thread).
I agree Mr. Stultz and I would not do any incremental steps that do not address the ultimate goal of bringing jobs and residents to the Dayton core. I would be glad to volunteer to March forward but I will not March without a clear goal and common sacrifice.
@Greg H. –
This sums up the way I feel as well. I need to see something tangible and transparent with a “buy in point” that allows me to quantify my contribution. So with things in the “infancy” stages with Mayor Leitzell and this economic developmental council, I am taking a somewhat skeptical wait and see approach, although I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.
The impact of their actions needs to translate into measurable results. Even if those results are something as menial as working with existing businesses and getting them to stay in Dayton – whatever – it just needs to be tangible. It also needs to do more than benefit a bunch of businessmen and developers. I would expect development companies to ply their trade, and profit, but the end results needs to be more business and more people. I ramble.
I own a business in Dayton. Started it, grew it, maintain it. I paid absolutely no attention to the surrounding government except for when I pay my taxes. I have been paying Dayton income taxes for 8 years now. Because of our growth, we will have to move soon. The tax rate difference is not alot, but .5% at this point is about enough to cover 10% of a new lease. Meaning, all things being equal between Dayton and a suburb at %1.75, I am moving to a suburb. Advertising, Engineering, IT, just about every field has the means to work from home offices anymore. Meaning, if you live in a suburb with a nicer tax rate, why would you locate your company to the core? (all but one employee lives in suburbs with lower tax rates).
So, I am curious what incentives a city has to offer that does not appropriate money from small businesses off the radar (like mine), to create financial incentives for other companies?
But, if the mayor wants a bunch of established professionals to get together once a month to chat about what could make Dayton a more competitive entity, whats the harm? Well, as long as I am not pitching in on their donuts anyway, otherwise I am going to show up and eat one. Or start a donut shop and demand I get equal consideration for all city purchased donuts. Or maybe start a cooking grease supply company and demand all city donuts be cooked in my grease, because it is environmentally friendly grease. I digress.
Summary point being, most small business owners only care about being compliant and their costs. Find a way to streamline or lower compliant/zoning costs along with tax cost and Dayton will become a more competitive entity. Stop land banking to keep values up and let them fall to market for interested buyers. Maybe create an internal Dayton group that will go to bat against the county for adjusting property taxes at a more expedient pace. That is where this business owner would start.
Lower tax rates… NO. That has never ever ever been a way to get business to locate to another place. NEVER.
The Core, Downtown Dayton, Downtowns in general, suffer bc work can be done almost anywhere. Why bother to commute to downtown when you could go 4 blocks out in the ‘burbs. Liberals don’t/can’t understand that the counties population could not all live in the city limits of Dayton, so the ‘burbs are needed. Besides, they are safer and have better schools. Dayton is filled with crime and crappy schools, for the most part. Most people don’t want that in their lives. But let’s blame the ‘burbs. They should not be able to thrive or grow, according to the liberal agenda.
Then if Dayton wants to reverse that we really need to understand the reasons it looked like a good business decision to abandon the core.
….and I think this is a task for Gary and his team of advisors . Or maybe this is a question for historians since we are really looking at something that is now in the past (the collective decisions that led to vacant and semi-abandoned office buildings)
To some degree this is what downtown planning effort that Ervin funded is already doing, but it seems the conclusion is they should start demolishing more stuff downtown since they don’t need the space anymore.
This accepts the verdict of the local business community, the local office center that Dayton as a business or office center, as currently constituted, needs to be reduced and maybe the land repositioned for a more suburban-style office use (low rise and large floorplate with on-site parking), or left as open space. A lot of is open space of various types.
You are correct; however, there are less hollowed out urban cores than there should be.
Bingo. That was my point. This is a cultural thing as much as an economic thing.
The Core, Downtown Dayton, Downtowns in general, suffer bc work can be done almost anywhere. Why bother to commute to downtown when you could go 4 blocks out in the ‘burbs. Liberals don’t/can’t understand that the counties population could not all live in the city limits of Dayton, so the ‘burbs are needed. Besides, they are safer and have better schools. Dayton is filled with crime and crappy schools, for the most part. Most people don’t want that in their lives. But let’s blame the ‘burbs. They should not be able to thrive or grow, according to the liberal agenda.
Excellent point, Gene. Louisville is certainly more liberal than Dayton in various ways, which might be why the movers and shakers make these efforts and investments to keep the city alive, and the city hasn’t become a near-total bantustan the way Dayton has….
Yep, you definetly have a point there….always interested in why Dayton sucks like it does and maybe because it’s so not-liberal. Excellent as always….
Well, Gene and Jeff. To have a proper debate, I guess you would have to define liberal. Regarding Louisville though. What is their tax rate? From what I read it looks to be 1.25% of a businesses net profits. In addition it is withheld as a payroll tax and citizens do not have to file. This sounds like a competitive advantage to me. Correct me if I am wrong, only had about 5 minutes to cruise around the city’s website.
Liberal has a broad brush here. Dayton can support only 250k people. Dayton has 155k people. Dayton needs to grow towards that 250k mark again – maybe even aim for a higher population. But this growth should come from outside the county, for the most part, and get the county for 560k to grow to650-675k people. Do this by attracting new business.
Louisville is not as liberal as you think. Lousiville has a strong sense of family, like Omaha NE, that makes it work. Not such a liberal thing, rather a pride thing. And Louisville is the largest city in their state, as is Omaha NE, while Dayton is the 5th or 6th largest in the state. BIG DIFFERENCE Mr. Lousiville. Remember, I used to live there for a while…..
Robert is right – they have lower taxes and are more business friendly. DO THAT and you have something.
Yes, it is technically called an occupational license fee and it was levied by both the county and city prior to their merger. An interim step toward merger was revenue sharing agreement between the city and county for this.
But I’m not really interested in a proper debate, just doing a little trolling, riffing off of Gene’s liberal this and liberal that comments to point out what great town Louisville is, even if it does have sort of liberal stuff going on…ie the city working with buisness to do economic development downtown, facilitating things. The other liberal thing is there are some local developers and wealthy individuals who are willing to invest in the city, which you don’t see here. In Ohio, particulary Dayton, “liberal”= “city” . In Lousiville its’ not so cut and dried.
But we are getting way off topic from Gary Leitzell and his advisors. I think it sounds good that he is brining in some advisors. I have no idea if they are good or bad, but I guess we’ll see. That he has the head of ISUS on board, is a good sign, actually. I’m leery of Leitzell based on that stuff David Lauri got on record, but thats just a personal issue regarding LGBT issues, not about the bigger picture of what Lietzell could mean for Dayton, which is something a lot different than we’ve seen.
How, or why, would outsiders move into Dayton when the housing is poor (for the most part) the schools are in shambles, the crime rate is high, etc. This is why the ‘burbs are appealing.
Attract developers to demo the crap and dated housing ( not historic) and redevelop neiborhoods with a green agenda. Re-define neiborhoods and build new, and polish the old that is worth saving. Most successful cities have both re-habs with new. This city have very little of either, so people chose to move to Centerville or Springboro.
I don’t rag on liberals too much :). They just dream without any real thought. They are too romantic, never realizing it takes money and co-ordinated effort, not just a painted picture and discussions over coffee. Enough of the. “What this city needs….” from everyone, including me. As Nike said – Just do it. Or as I will say – Just do something.
Not such a liberal thing, rather a pride thing.
Bingo….you won! :-)
The thing is that almost all of the things mentioned here are being done in some form. Short of slashing taxes or funding some specific project, everything is on the table and there are lots of people investing in places and things.
Yes, there are new houses. Yes, there are new businesses. Yes, there is new infrastructure. Yes, there are new amenities. Look around – they’re out there.
The real gripe seems to be that we (meaning the community) can’t do it all at once.
Yes, people are doing some things, but it feels a bit nickel and dimed. And where, in the city of Dayton, are there NEW houses, done on a large scale, not one here and there? New businesses? A few small ones, but nothing big. Small is fine, we just need a lot more of them then.
It is not an all at once thing – it is a reality that we are losing more people and businesses and housing than we are gaining.
Interesting input everyone, the first folly in my imagination is we have this downtown area we need to fill with business tennants, mostly hundred year old buildings some older. Don’t misunderstand me, my house was built in 1879 and I have an appreciation for history but restoration, maintainance and utilities come at a cost that most businesess couldn’t factor into a bottom line and be competetive when the alternatives are more attractive, the ‘we have it we have to use it’ mentality is not going to work for downtown Dayton unfortunately. Comparing Dayton and Louisville (I also lived in Louisville years ago) when downtown Louisville started expanding during prosperous times it moved west along the river taking out old residential areas (and projects) and maintained it’s second tier of supporting small business immediately south of downtown, Dayton at the same time was obsessed with creating residential historic districts surrounding it’s downtown and in effect landlocked it to deteriorate . Downtown Dayton has honestly become a hindrance to anyone trying to get to the other side of town. It’s all water down the river now but in my opinion the only way downtown Dayton can catch a second wind is selectively bulldozing, landbanking and moving east toward Findlay Street along the river. As Jeff points out Louisville and Jefferson County working together on one tax rate stopped the infighting of municipalities to bring business to their intersection.
Dayton is filled with crime and crappy schools
the schools are in shambles
Dayton’s schools have the same quality teaching staff and instruction as the districts surrounding them have on average. People move to the burbs because they don’t want their kid sitting next to a kid with the problems associated with bad parenting. I don’t judge any parent for making that choice. I do however take issue with people who claim that the quality of instruction is bad in Dayton. They generally make that claim like Gene without citing specifics such as inadequate teaching practices. You can site test scores all you want and they don’t mean anything. Ask a group of Centerville teachers if they really think they could make a difference in those scores if they taught a Dayton classroom. I think that most would know better than to claim that they have a golden ticket. A lot of charter school people thought they had that golden ticket and found out that they didn’t.
Oh, Oh, Oh…. I don’t blame teachers, however, the parents are …….. everything (or most everything.)
Teachers are close in quality, but the students are not even close…. sorry folks, it is reality.
when downtown Louisville started expanding during prosperous times it moved west along the river taking out old residential areas
It also expanded east, creating the medical center and the community college area around I-65. Dayton did his too to a lesser extent via the urban renewal beteen Wilkinson Street and the river, and on the east side.
The exception is that the Oregon was spared the bulldozer (as was McPherson Town), so Dayton has what Louisville does not, which are two old neighborhoods directly next to downtown.
The schools issue in Dayton is probably the toughest nut to crack, but is indirectly a good thing from a regional perspective, since it means Montgomery County suburban schools remain viable options for people who dont want to pay private tuition. This is where Louisville has it worse than Dayton in that they bus for socioeconomic integration countywide, which means countywide white flight to the counties surrounding Louisville, mainly Bullitt and Oldham, but also Spencer, Shelby, and the southern Indiana counties across the river. It means Louisville/Jefferson County, the merged city/county, is losing population, even while the metro area is seein both a net growth in population and in-migration. This is because middle and upper-middle income families with school kids are moving to these surrounding counties (or are going private)
The Dayton area has the different problem of regional population loss and outmigration, across the board, due to the weak local economy, but Montgomery County suburbia still is a viable place for middle income families. So maybe DPS is what it is, a place where teachers need to be social workers too, due to nature of socioeconomic segregation of the underclass and working poor in Dayton City.
@Jeff of L (the original Jeff)-
Wow- you mean somewhere they got it right? And there was still “economic flight”- I didn’t think with such a dilution this would happen. But, then again- there is no excuse for the growth in either Springboro or Beavercreek. The expansion of those districts have cost the region a lot of money- building new schools when the regional inventory was enough for all.
Moving to a single, lower, regional income tax- that is distributed per capita would be a bold economic move- and start to level the playing field. When you start funding schools the same way- maybe we’ll stop having so many levy’s and game playing- and the real costs will become evident.
First, how could one stop the growth of Springboro and Beavercreek? Limiting places like these would limit a lot of places around Ohio and infringe on the rights of the people that live there. They have a right to build, to grow. Why do the bigger towns get to “win?”
Sure, places around the US have limited growth here and there, in the name of a “forrest” or “lake” or some other absolute bs reason. But most of the growth areas around here were farm land, and we have so much farm land in this country that we don’t use half of it. Sure, Ohio could have gone “farm,” but again you infringe on the rights of the people.
Lexington did it in the name of horse farms, by the rich folk. And poor people who owned farms that were not so rich fought to develop, afterall it is their property. We had no “horse farm” or “forrest” to save us from growth, nor should we have made up a reason. Growth to these areas help a lot of people. It may have been better to not grow, but Dayton or any other city does not get to win by default bc of a few people romantic notion of a city and downtown. People have rights to build.
Anywho, that is said and done. Dayton needs to focus on getting jobs (ie attracting business) and gaining population. Saying Beavercreek and Springboro screwed Dayton is wrong and a waste of time. It also reveals the real reason people moved out there – to get away from crime, crime, more crime, bad schools, crappy schools, and really poor schools, along with crime and bad schools, as well as the overall perception of the loser mentality that exist throughout the city of Dayton the many of it residence exibit. The trash in yards and non-cut lawns get old after a while. Civil people like laws enforced, clean neiborhoods and good schools. Dayton has a problem with this.
bad schools, crappy schools, and really poor schools, along with crime and bad schools
People are not leaving because of bad schools. People are leaving to get away from disadvantaged children. There’s a big difference there as Gene points out in a previous post.
Splitting hairs. You are right, the schools themselves may be fine. The faculty may be great. I do believe there is a lot of politics that get in the way of Dayton Schools, but JL is right. People LEFT bc they did not want their kid(s) to be in the same classroom as kids who are disruptive and dont want to learn. This is most often the fault of the parent(s), generally PARENT, who thinks that schools are a baby sitting service.
These are more often than not the same kids the contribute to the huge crime problem in certain areas. So BANG, the kids who drive people out of schools grow up to be the same kids who drive people out of cities for crime problems. Why do we let such people have this much power in the development and destiny of urban areas, specifically Dayton? We let bad kids dictate our schools and then they grow up to be our least productive/most criminal prone citizens. Ship ’em to L.A.
Yes and they win by spending your tax dollars to finance that growth. They pack the local municipalities with Realtors and developers or those that are financed by that pack. So Gene your elected officials are using your tax money to finance that growth, which lowers the value of your house. Keep focusing Gene, 99 million dollars in Tax Money to invest in the infrastructure around the DHL Hub. What if the gov spent 99 million dollars in your neighborhood. Using my tax money to enrich the few is that your idea of good government? Montgomery County Water gets sent to Warren County to enrich whom? You or South of Town Developers?
I agree with that. I am not in favor of tax dollars being spent on most everything. I think they should not bother to collect most of the taxes in the first place. But they also spend a lot of tax dollars in Dayton that NEVER work.
So what is the difference? At the very least the Springboros of the world provide areas that are safe with good schools with those tax dollars. People there have jobs and are productive, making the economy work. They have kids that will do the same. The tax dollars we spend in Dayton do not, can not, will not produce even close to the same results. I hate tax dollars being spent on most things, but at least the Springboros of the world produce positive results.
BTW, whose tax dollars? Mont Co. has 550k people, only 155k live in Dayton. And of the 155k in Dayton, they don’t pay that much in taxes bc they don’t make a lot of money. It seems to me that most tax dollars collected from individuals are from the suburbs to begin with. These people want Springboro and Centerville. Ask them to chose between Springboro and Dayton and 98% will say Springboro. Heck, ask Dayton people to chose to live in Dayton or Springboro (if they could afford it) and 85% would say Springboro.
Again, Dayton has room for only 250-275K people. Where do the other people in this county live if and when Dayton fills up? They are called the suburbs, the places where productive people live and raise families. What is so bad about that? This ain’t Chicago or NYC. People want a little land, a little space. They don’t want to sniff their neiborhoods trash all the time.
The easy credit “ownership” society promoted by the Federal Government on down since George W. Bush and even to some extent Clinton, with easy loans and artificially low interest rates made much of this suburban sprawl possible – with all the obscene new home construction we see, even today, in the midst of a recession. Like the new development in Oakwood at Schantz and Far Hills. I mean, we NEED more brand new homes, right? The market will decide! (as if that’s a way to make moral choices) So actually, suburban sprawl is an unfortunate negative consequence of loose, irresponsible credit and lending policies. The same policies that caused the financial collapse. Appropriate, no?
But remember, if you are a blind apologist for the market, remember your mantra: There is but one market, and Friedman is it’s prophet! (insert appropriate economist as needed). Yes, the market, it’s the decider. Just like our last brilliant POTUS.
D. Greene taking the conversation to a whole new level! You may be right about easy credit lending itself to sprawl. However, since that is a federal level argument it is difficult for the city to do much to affect that. You should leave it at that.
Your inference about Market’s, who is responsible, what is moral, and that Friedman does not contest the FED to begin with, puts you on the wrong track.
Actually, we do need more new homes. Maybe not in Oakwood, but we can let them decide their own fate. In Dayton we need to de-construct homes that are in poor shape and replace neiborhoods with new homes with fresh floor plans that people actually want to live in. They don’t need to be huge or expensive homes, rather well designed and affordable. Redefine neiborhoods – make new neiborhoods. We need to re-invent Dayton in some parts, so if we knock out blocks and blocks or homes that no one wants and start over, maybe we can attract productive people to this city rather than attract more welfare recipiants. Dayton needs better houses, better people. Continuing to sell homes to drug users and government sponges does not advance our city.