How much do 3 stitches cost?
A friend cut his hand (crotch of the thumb and forefinger) with a carpet knife at work a few weeks back. He has no insurance and no workers comp. He also doesn’t have a car or a drivers license. It was a four block walk to Miami Valley Hospital emergency room- and about a mile to the closest “doc in a box/ urgent care” at the corner of Patterson and Stewart (if it’s still there).
He opted to go to MVH. It was a six hour visit. The bill from the doc came yesterday (there may still be one from the hospital).
- Repair simple S to 2.5 cm $258
- Extended exam $277
- Total: $535
The invoice listed a woman as the care provider- yet, the only woman he saw was a billing clerk. The guy who sewed him up- only took 10 minutes to scrub it out, numb it and throw three quick stitches in.
When I was in the Army, our Special Forces medics routinely would take care of issues like this. Total training was completed in under a year and a half (this includes how to jump out of airplanes, shooting exotic weapons while rappelling out of helos and knowing how to camp with the best of them). We even had medics doing vasectomies with a doctors supervision.
Somehow, our medical system has become as broken as our financial system.
There is no reason for three stitches to cost $535 or for treatment to take 6 hours. Even at $250 an hour, with a half hour minimum charge- this shouldn’t be more than $125 plus some silk and supplies costing less than $25.
Can anyone defend these practices? Can anyone tell me why a doctor can’t set a rate before working on a patient? How can we consider ourselves leaders of the free world when in any other industrialized country this would be taken care of by universal health care coverage?
The bad news is- since the bill is so incredibly high, it’s unlikely that my friend will be able to pay (the bill is double his weekly pay), so we’ll all be told that we have to pay higher premiums to cover his lack of coverage. And this is how a “free market system” works?
[UPDATE: Feb 14, 2009]The hospital bill came-
$39.38 for “Medical surgical supplies and devices- General
$249 for Emergency Room- General
$600 for Emergency Room- Other ER
Total, in addition to the $535 above- another $888.38
Total for 3 stitches: $1423.38 or $474.46 per stitch.
It’s time to start talking about taxing MVH for their property. If this is a “public service” I’ll be damned- it’s more like a robbery.
This one you are right on. Over priced. If your friend had insurance they would have charged less – often seen on the network show, but maybe that is for big time surgery.
I think they should list prices, like a restaurant. At least get us in the ball park of what this stuff costs.
One Stitch = $35
Hang Nail = $6
Hang Over = $2
Well Hung = Priceless
I cut my right index finger yesterday with a Hedge Hog while cuting hedges. 3 stitches. 3-hour emergency room visit. The bill right now is $949.20. This does not include the doctor’s bill (which is billed separate from the hospital bill). I don’t yet have an itemized bill (when I get it I’ll post it here). I had health insurance last year, bu dropped it because it became too expensive ($500 a month). I am self-employed. How’s your friend doing?
Hi Tom,
His cut was clean, with a sharp knife. He’s fine. The bill, however, may make him ill for quite some time. Sorry about your finger.
Looking forward to seeing your total- as I’m also waiting to see what Miami Valley Hospital charges on top of the doctors fees.
Well those who opt to not have insurance pay the price…kind of like someones fancy I phone taking a dip in the drink……you live and you learn!
Health Insurance is the biggest fraud/joke in the free world. I think everyone should not have health insurance or all should have it same difference.
I owe $1000+ for an x-ray of my ribs and 45 minutes in an emergency room. So not worth it.
Just came across this after receiving a bill for 4 stitches. $659.00, and my insurance is covering 80% but with the deductible and copay, I owe $181.80 for waiting 4 hours in an emergency room, and having a nurse take maybe 10 minutes to put in 4 stiches. Thank God I took the stitches out myself (very easy for 4 small stitches) I bet that would have cost me another $200.
This is the first time I actually had to use my insurance in 3 years when I’ve paid $3,000 total (which from the looks of it I am very lucky as I am a student on a group plan with my school) but I am totally disgusted and outraged at how such a simple procedure is $659.00…
F**k the American health care system, it is so ass backward and corrupt… We pay the most for health care, but are ranked behind almost every other 1st world country in the topic. Quite simply, I want someone to look me in the eye, and give me a justification for this kind of price for a simple procedure. This is disgusting and just goes to show what happens when GREED and FOR-PROFIT INSTIUTIONS are involved in something like health care, which I believe is a RIGHT for everyone to have when you live in the richest country in the world.
I’m all for capitalism, but for something like health care it’s just plain wrong and disgusting the way we have it now. Only in America does a person’s health not matter if they cannot pay. I have heard so many stories about the problems with the system, but this is absolutely ridiculous. $659 for a 4 hour wait and 10 minutes of care, give me a f**king break. What a bunch of dirty crooks.. I’m going to appeal the decision for whatever it’s worth..
Our priorities are screwed up. We pay shortstops, musicians and actors way to much. Maybe you should bitch about that nonsense.
UPDATE: AND I THOUGHT $659 WAS BAD!! Just got a separate bill from the physician, another $623.00
Total cost in America for 10 minutes with a physician in an ER and 4 stitches for a minor cut? $1282!!! That is beyond ridiculous and is part of a system that is doomed and will collapse unless something is done about it. We need universal health care, and all you idiots out there that don’t get it, if EVERYONE PAYS, then EVERYONE PAYS LESS. Make a single payer system that is Universal, but keep private options open for people that want coverage on top of that. It’s as simple as that. Then you get the FOR-PROFIT insurance companies out of the mix and make it a single payer system, all the administrative bullsh*t, which costs up to a third of the total cost is taken right out.. You also need to come down hard on those doctors and hospitals who participate in FRAUD and send a message that if you charge for things you didn’t do or way too much for something, you will be seriously punished. $1300 for 4 stitches and 10 minutes of care is AN ABSOLUTE SCAM AND I REALLY WANT SOMEONE IN THE SYSTEM TO LOOK ME IN THE EYE AND JUSTIFY THE COST.
A package of vicryl: One Dollar
A medical education: One Hundred Thousand Dollars.
Not getting gangrene because you tried to do it yourself: Well, I was gonna say “priceless” but apparently it’s only Twelve Hundred and Eighty Two Dollars.
:-)
Those who pay have to make up for those who don’t. Many years ago i had the same type of thing happen; two mior cuts to the hand, six stitches, $220 (making $5.35 an hour, $210.00 was pricey.) Here’s what I learned from that experience – a dab of antiseptic and a tube of superglue cost only a few pennies and saves hours.
Update: The hospital bill came-
$39.38 for “Medical surgical supplies and devices- General
$249 for Emergency Room- General
$600 for Emergency Room- Other ER
Total, in addition to the $535 above- another $888.38
Total for 3 stitches: $1423.38 or $474.46 per stitch.
It’s time to start talking about taxing MVH for their property. If this is a “public service” I’ll be damned- it’s more like a robbery.
Update: My first bill for my emergency room visit was $949.20. I negotiated with the hospital (in person) for a deduction. After several phone calls and 2 visits (in person) to their billing dept., they adjusted my bill to $349.20 (a $600 savings). Here’s how I accomplished this. I calmly — but persistently — informed them that I strongly felt that the treatment they provided me (3 sutures [stitches]; no lab work or x-ray; no complications) was not worth almost a thousand dollars, and (2) I showed them a list I compiled from the Web of comparable charges at other U.S. hospitals (considerably less; they ranged from $265 to $648 for the same service I received for $949.20). I almost calmly informed the hospital billing dept. that if my bill was not reasonably adjusted, I would turn the matter over to “someone who can represent me” and that “the media will probably be very interested to learn about this situation.” The next bill I received was from the emergency room physician: $597.10. After 3 phone calls, this bill was reduced to $194.20 (a $402.90 savings). I accomplished this by informed the doctor’s company in another city that the hospital had significantly reduced my hospital bill; therefore, the physician’s charge should also be reduced. Also, I pointed out that the hospital and the emergency room doctor’s company (located in another city) — had charged me ($178 and $212, respectively) for simply arriving at the emergency room (prior treament); these charges, I informed them, were exorbitant and redundant. My finger has completely healed (no scar). Final Total Cost of 3 Stitches: $543.40.
My son received 3 stitches in January after 3 long hours of waiting in a seemingly empty ER dept in Round Rock TX. My insurance company just informed me that the bill currently stands at a whopping $2550???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a bit of numbing cream, 3 stiches and 10 minutes of Doctor’s attention?? After being left for 3 hours on my own with 2 tired under 5 kids I feel like sending them a bill too. Are they having a laugh? Surely this is an administrative error…right? I feel like taking my bill to my local newspaper to expose this absurd overcharge for a simple treatment
I had a small cut in my knee. I have student health insurance. The student health clinic was closed, but their website gave me a number to call. It was for the emergency room…no other option. After sitting in the e-room for 2 hours, I received 5 stiches. The doc. said “it does’nt look to bad, but I stich it up anyway.” It took him about 5 minutes. I was floored when I got the bill. $1,350. About $1,000 for the emergency room, and $350 for the doctor. Even with insurance I still paid almost $400. They robbed me and the insurance company – thats over $250 per minute. I could have easily just used superglue, butterflies, or even stiched it up myself. My friend had to have an emergency apendectomy, with insurance it will cost her $22,000. They must have charged over $60,000 for a routine procedure. I am planning a protest…fuck the hospitals, they are the problem. Beware of Ivinson memorial Hospital in Laramie Wyoming.
I’m not running for Congress anymore- but, I am running for City Commission- and I’ll be damned if I’m going to continue to funnel tax dollars to an organization that practices this price gouging. I also will refust to recognize their “tax exempt status” which is granted in return for their “public service.” It’s time for this to stop.
Hopefully- this topic will gain steam- and soon, we’ll have enough of these price gouging stories to give the president something to work with to get real health care reform in the works.
America can’t survive this predatory practice for a service that isn’t really optional.
Thanks for your stories- keep them coming.
Miami Valley Urgent care
Back spasm.
The bill for 15 minute exam, a shot (that didn’t help anything), and a scrip for Flexeril is $400. I don’t feel so bad after reading the other horror stories here, but still.
Here’s the breakdown.
145.00 -Office visit (Reasonable for an Urgent care actually)
40.00 – Toradol (the shot)
45.00 – Injection charge (what, was I allowed to get the Toradol “to go”?)
120.00 – Services provided by an urgent care (Funny, I thought that’s what the Office visit charge was)
50.00 – Treatment during extended hours (I was there well before their normal closing time so this irks me)
Now, because I have insurance, some of the rates “exceeded the maximum allowed by my plan”. Brings the total owed down to $336. I am preparing to call them to discuss what I feel are duplicate charges for the shot and the office visit, and the extra charge for ‘after hours’. Will post the results.
Mike in Beavercreek
OK, so after the call, here’s the xplanation I got.
The Office Visit charge makes sense, no problem there.
The “Services provide by …” charge is a facility charge that they are ALLOWED to charge.
The “Extended hours” charge is because I was there after 5pm or on a weekend. That’s the kind of thing ought to be posted on their door, i.e. regular hours and extended hours.
The separate charge for the injection is “to cover the cost of the needles and supplies used”. Them’s some ‘spensive supplies!
So, the bill stands, nothing she could do. $336.00 after my insurance “adjustments”. Guess I’ll pay it and just not work hard enough to stress my back anymore.
What really gripes me about this is that I was there same time last year for the same issue. Back then, they submitted a single charge of $130 to my insurance. The “agreed to pricing” adjusted that down to $100. Since then, they have revised their billing policies and this year they submitted $315 for the same visit (not including the shot I got this time).
It is not the final cost to me that is upsetting, but the fact that they are submitting inflated bills to my insurance. I believe it is the health insurance that is driving up the costs. If the insurance companies will pay, why wouldn’t the health care providers submit the inflated bills? It’s just good business sense. If they were billing people directly, and we had to pay out of pocket, people would complain about the high costs more. It’s the “cusioned blow” that the individual sees that allows this to perpetuate. As someone mentioned above, there ought to be a menu of services so we know ahead of time. Then there might be a little fair competition to keep prices in check.
Thanks for the letting me vent.
Mike
Hi Mike-
That’s my point exactly- the 2 different rates- one for insured, and one for uninsured- is costing us in terms of paperwork overhead- and is inefficient. We need a one-price policy- that has some kind of true cost comparison built in. Other wise- there can never be effective competition.
The insurance companies are playing a game, the hospitals are playing a game- and both are winning? How is that possible? Lack of real regulation.
I say their tax exempt status should be questioned if this is the way they do business.
It’s one of the reasons I’ve run for office.
Sorry about your back- try yoga and pilates. Cheaper- and better.
I cut my thumb six months ago – required 15 stitches. I went to a hospital that is covered by my insurance. I had already met my deductible, so I figured the procedure (which took about 30 minutes) would be complete covered. Three weeks after the hospital visit, I receive a bill for over $8,000. My insurance paid $1,600 and said the remainder was my responsibility. I have been fighting it, and have been successful in getting the balance reduced to an incredibly high $2,500. So, this E.R. doctor is expecting my $2,500 and the insurance $1,600 (Total $4,100) for a procedure that took him 30 minutes. Now I know why so many people give a false name and do not carry I.D. when they enter a hospital. Any suggestion on how to fight this balance?
@tylor,
The only thing I know at this point is public shaming of hospitals and organizing people in your area that have also been robbed blind. Set up a free blog at http://www.wordpress.com, tell your story- include the hospitals name, the doctors name, the insurance companies name, and start doing research on tax breaks they’ve received- etc. Our local hospitals don’t pay property taxes- claiming they provide so much “community service”- I say those days are over- http://esrati.com/?p=2107
it’s time that this fraudulent system be ended. There is no excuse for the insurance company only paying $1,600, or the $8,000 bill.
The government regulates who can practice medicine- and who can insure us- thereby protecting this bad behavior, we supposedly regulate our government through elections- so you can also start holding every politician accountable.
The best answer is some kind of single payer system right now- look into helping out an organization that probably already exists where you live that supports this.
Your friend…. got out of MVH in just six hours?
Who did you bribe?
I didn’t see an express lane.
And he got help!
Must be nice.
Its nice to see someone finally fighting back against the corrupt health care system. :)
“” In the ‘burg 11.03.08 at 7:13 pm
A package of vicryl: One Dollar
A medical education: One Hundred Thousand Dollars.
Not getting gangrene because you tried to do it yourself: Well, I was gonna say “priceless” but apparently it’s only Twelve Hundred and Eighty Two Dollars.
“”
You’re not too bright. First of all, it does NOT cost $100,000 to receive training to give stiches. A nurse in training can give you them easily. We are also talking about basically the most simple procedure that they can give you at the ER. Sure, you go there in the middle of the night and someone provides you with medical service. But to cost $1200+ is absolutely absurd. Also, you would NOT get gangrene from doing it yourself. Like the comment about superglue that method actually does work, just might leave a little worse scar… Luckily I fought it out with the hospital and they let go of the their end of the bill so now I just need the physician to back off because there’s no way in hell I’m going to pay them a penny for this grossly overcharged “service” Give me a f**king break.
Maybe a little stitching education and other relatively simple medical procedures should be taught at the high school level……….oh wait, most students have trouble adding so maybe that is not such a good idea.
Insurance companies are a middle man for cash and cash only, nothing that actually helps or contributes to actual health care.
Gene 05.15.09 at 5:56 pm “” Maybe a little stitching education and other relatively simple medical procedures should be taught at the high school level……….oh wait, most students have trouble adding so maybe that is not such a good idea. Insurance companies are a middle man for cash and cash only, nothing that actually helps or contributes to actual health care.”” First of all, it’s quite laughable that you would make a statement saying that most high school students have trouble adding. Give me one example that shows that 51% or more of high school students have trouble with basic arithmetic in its simplest form, addition. Second of all, the point is not that stitches should be taught to high school students, it’s that the procedure does NOT require $100,000 worth of a medical education. In fact, it requires very minimal medical education that any nurse can do, and just about any nurse in-training should be able to do. If you honestly want to come on here and justify $1200+, and it looks like in some cases up to $2,500 for a 10 minute ridiculously simple procedure, then I welcome you to make that statement, because only a fool would try to argue that such a charge is justifiable. This is nothing short of highway robbery, especially when you try to ask about cost, even for a ballpark estimate, and no one there can give you any number. Wtf is that, it’s like going to a grocery store because you are starving and need to buy some bread, and then then when you ask about the price, no one can tell you what it will be, but since you are dying of starvation and have no other choice but to get the break, you consent to seeing the price when you get the bill, and when the bill does come you find that instead of a reasonable $2-3, you were charged $35…. I GUARANTEE you that in countries with universal healthcare, the bill does NOT come anywhere near $1200 for 3 stiches (and yes even in universal healthcare they still… Read more »
In the Army- a medic would do this- and I guarantee they didn’t spend $100K on the education.
We have to do better.
Any doctors office could have stitched this for $250- if they were open.
I agree it is too much & overpriced, but you know what I would like to know what idiot told Americans that doctors & nurses enjoy working for free. NO! They have to get paid someway or another.
Okay listen. being a medical biller myself I’ll tell you all that the prices have to be set high because when claims are summited to the insurance company they will only pay a portion of it. NEVER has and never will an insurance company pay for a full modality.
Example: say your stitches were set to cost $342.00
say you had insurance based on whatever the policy is they will never pay the full 342.00
So whatever they decide to pay, they then apply your copayment & dedutible benifits to what they decided to pay. Blame the insurance. Not the hospitals or facilities that provide the care itself.
@medical biller- that’s the problem- if we paid for health care, instead of insurance, the doc’s would get paid. One price for all.
This idea of the middle man is nothing more than paying the mob (insurance companies) for protection.
It’s time to stop paying the mob.
I am a Canadian currently going through the payment process for several stictches my wife received while we were travelling in the US. She had a straight, clean 6cm laceration on the top of her thigh and it required a cleaning and about 10 stiches. She received Lido, they used some betadine, she got a tetnus shot. All good and appropriate care.
We paid $682 when leaving the hospital – I thought this was the whole bill and while high, was not that bad either. Well, we just received the remaining bills – It turns out the 682 was a deposit to the hospital, we owe them an additional $588. Also the doctors bill arrived (I didn’t know he was separate!) and that is an additional $1133 ($655 for 6cm of stiches, $433 for seeing her, plus taxes). About 2400 bucks! This is more than a cardiac surgeon here bills for doing open heart surgery (I work in the operating room).
I am guessing there are a lot of people on the gravy train to pad this bill up to such an obscene amount.
Just had 20 stitches in my leg. I cut myself pretty bad by tripping over some sheet metal. My ambulance ride was only $00 dollars since I pay 6.00 a month for our local volenter fire and rescue service. I was charged by the doctor 275.00 emg visit. -46.75 not allowed.
repair superficial wnd $412.00 20 stitches.
The Doctor washed out the wound with a half gallon os solution then injected me with excrutiating pain a numbing injection, then after 15 min 5 stitches inside and 15 outside 5 of the outside I could feel excruciating pain as the doctor stabbed my leg with the needle and felt the thread pull through my skin for at least 5 threads of 20. I am going to send a bill to the doctor for 1000.00 for pain and suffering. We shall see if she still wants her 19.00 that were not covered by my insurance.
I have not even included the Hospital bill. I am working on how to deal with it. I do pay 17,000 a year for insurance and 500.00 out of pocket per year and during this Hospital visit I paid over 150.00 when I left.
Well I searched for “cost of 3 stitches” and this site came up in google.
A family member fell and cut her lip requiring an emergency room visit and 3 stitches – no other treatment was given unless you count the fluids used to clean the cut before administering the stitches.
Time spent in care area – 15 minutes.
Cost: $1700
Roughly $1100 for the “Hospital fees” and $600 for “physicians fees”.
We are disputing this robbery but no have resolution yet.
Next time we’ll just stitch it ourselves.
I cut my lower leg about an inch deep and 5 inches long. It took 5 stitches inside and 12 stiches outside. My doctor did not numb the external tissue very well and I undured excrutiating pain for about 5 external stitches. I could feel the needle penetrate my skin and feel the thread pulled through. I was charged $1987.00 from the hospital for (?) I asked for a detailed invoice and I am still waiting. $956.00 from the doctor. After the deductions and agreed upon prices to the insurance company I have to pay $390.00. The ambulance ride was free thank god or I would be looking at another $1000.00 easy. I have figured out a way to save soooooooo much on medical bills. LISTEN TO THIS! When you go to the doctor or emergency room or whatever medical center. ASK FOR A CASH DISCOUNT! YOU WILL GET 30 TO 70% DISCOUNT FOR CASH! THEN SUBMIT THE BILL TO YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY! IF I WOULD HAVE DONE THIS THEN I WOULD HAVE PAID $2060.00 ON MY CREDIT CARD AND SUBMITTED THE ENTIRE BILL TO MY INSURANCE. MY INSURANCE WOULD HAVE PAID $1800.00 AND IT WOULD HAVE COST ME ONLY $260.00. The sad part about all of this is my employer pays about $1400.00 per month for my insurance at $16,800.00 a year and our family only uses about $6000.00 per year. Of that $6000.00 we pay $600.00 to $3000.00 Where does the rest of the money go? Also I went to get a perscription filled and the copay was 10.00 but the medication was only 4.00 so I asked them to not used my insurance and it only cost 4.00 not 10.00. What a rip off.. And they sent a bill to my insurance company after I paid the 10.00 for a 4.00 perscription. What a rip off. Before I had insurance I used to see my doctor for 35.00 Now it cost me 120.00 per visit and I pay only 20.0o co pay. I would rather my company pay $500.00 per year for medical insurance over $20,000 and… Read more »
4/09: I go to the UCLA Medical Centers Emergency room in Santa Monica for a laceration across my forehead. I receive 10 stitches. I was billed $150 at the time of service.
6/09: I receive a bill for the stitches totaling $700
This bill appears to be from UCLA, but I later find out it is from the doctor that gave me the stitches.
9/09: I receive a bill from UCLA for $520.
I am told this is the “room cost”, the room which I was in for only 15min.
$1220 for 10 stitches or $120 per stitch. I was never told I would be charged above the initial $150, it was never explained to me that I would have a room fee of $520, and to add insult to injury UCLA has no person or system for disputing charges or claims. This is robbery plain and simple. The practice of medical billing should be transparent. A PA could have performed my procedure and for arguments sake say they make $250 an hour. With supplies add $100 (Im being gracious), add rental of the room, another $100 (for 15min), so max it should have cost $450.
I have an excellent PPO, so the fact that the insurance company would only pay a portion of that shows they don’t agree with the amount either (My deductible is low and had been met prior to this incident). The remaining amount which I was never told about should not be charged to me- they should not be making exorbitant (+20%) profits from sickness.
Im so stressed out right now. I had 6 stiches done in my chin. Long story short its because I was drinking and I got a drugtest from teh doctor and failed. My med isnt covering it now. Im so stressed. Im 16 hah. I have $300 now, and of cource my moms making me pay for it all, which i dont blame her for. i messed upp bad. But anyways. wish me luck haha.
My wife cut her hand and the cut is about 3/4 of an in. We have no insurance yet I just got a job so I dont medical yet. I want to take her so bad but she keeps telling me we cant afford it. But I’m worried. So I was just trying to find out what it would cost for stitches, and I cant believe what I’ve read so far. We have enough bills to try and catch up on. I just dont know what to do. If it was under $800 for everything no problem but over $1200 there’s no way. I’m just very concerned. I guess I’ll look around for free clinincs and see what they can do.
Hi Richard-
Please go to any general practitioner – who will probably do it for under $200. Just DON’T GO TO THE ER.
i just got off the phone with my local ERs claims department. $2430 for three (3!) stitches. I had gashed my pinky on a broken wine bottle (i had not been drinking). The whole time i was in the ER the 4 nurses on staff were gossiping about my claim. I was one of two people in the medical room and still had to wait over 45 minutes. The nicest person there was the women who took my insurance information….not that it helped at all. The doctor herself was rude and had very little sympothy for me. I overheard the doctor that had checked my finger in the patient information ward, clainimg that i may be lying and making everyone there assume i was expecting painkillers. It is not a far cry to say that i was profiled. i am caucasian, my hair was unkempt, and i was wearing very laid back attire, not to mention i had a 1\2 inch wide hole in my pinky. Injustice is an absolute understatment. I have been wronged……we have been wronged. These physicians and doctors loose sight of what they(i hope) are there for, the hospitals brainwash them into focusing only on the cost and how much money they can get from this “victim”. I was not a patient in that ER ward, i was an animal, i was something miniscule and not worthy of human sympothy. Even after watching the doctor sew me up and mess up twice (once rupturing a blood vessel and trying to cover it up before i noticed, and another time when she was impatient and snipped the suture off on accident….which is the only time she smiled) It took every bit of my descency not to get up and yell “If I am an inconvenience to any of you, please raise your hand!” and if i didn’t expect all of them to lift there hands, i would have done it. Its just sad that there is so little i can do about this, im young, im 23. These are the types of things that people die over…its not the injury that kills us,… Read more »
I got 2 stitches in my thumb last week and it cost me 718.00!!! And like this story, the doc scrubbed it for 3 seconds stitched it up in less than 5 mins. Now I have this outrageous bill for something I could have probably done myself. Our country has gonedown the drain, time for a complete government overhaul.
I never read this post, but since someone revived it: This is not a fault of the free market. This is a fault of government intervention. In a free market, there would be someone open 24hrs charging cheap amounts for stitches. Hell, its just needle and thread, next time someone cuts themselves, just come over to my place and I will sew you up. You have to sign a form saying you will not sue me………………wait a minute, thats AGAINST THE LAW. So, yeah, dont go bashing free markets, get to bashing the government interference.
Want to fix healthcare? Get the government out of the way.
@RV: I fear the government is “in the way” because the health care companies and other lobbies have bought and paid for their Senators and Representatives, who have passed the anti-trust exemptions and many other barriers to entry. The result is a near-monopoly. So how do you get a free market when the free market has paid Congress off to create an unfair monopoly?
We need health care reform, but it should only be about 10 pages of easy to read language. Unfortunately the Republicans wouldn’t be able to write with that kind of clarity and simplicity either.
In a free market, there would be someone open 24hrs charging cheap amounts for stitches. Hell, its just needle and thread, next time someone cuts themselves, just come over to my place and I will sew you up. You have to sign a form saying you will not sue me
Yeah, who needs government regulation? Let’s just let anyone set up shop and do surgery. So what if a few people die because some charlatans without proper training get some business cause they’re willing to work on the cheap. After a few people die, no one else will go to them. Caveat emptor and all.
Hell people could probably do a better job of developing drugs if there weren’t any government interference. Who needs an FDA and all these tests and hoops to jump through? Just let anyone sell anything and claim anything about whatever they sell. The free market’ll sort it all out. If some quacks sell some pills that don’t work as claimed and some people die because of it, other people will learn not to buy those pills. Again, caveat emptor.
Oh, wait, we tried that already.
I think Robert Vigh was born about 150 years too late- he belongs back in the Wild West. Go watch the HBO series Deadwood- and you’ll see a doc like he describes.
Thanks, but I think I’ll pass.
@Brian: Government created the problem. We allowed them to exceed their constitutional boundaries and because of this they are for sale. I think you are right, but I want the removal of government so the problem is gone permanently, not more government to fix the government.
@DL and DE. Your standard concept of the free market is of course skewed. I think David should have been born in Russia and seen what starvation looks like due to socialistic stupidity.
DL, if stitches cost $2400.00, that means alot of people cannot afford stitches so they do not get them. More people will be serviced if you lower the price. How do you change the price? Increase supply or decrease demand. How do you increase supply? Well, you remove barriers to market entry on simple procedures. This would increase supply and price would drop. Consequently, it would also create jobs. Furthermore, passing a law that says you have to properly advertise your medicine or represent your medicine is actually good. Because they were frauding people. Free Markets still have laws against fraud and theft. I will keep trying to evoke a well thought response from either David.
I will keep trying to evoke a well thought response from either David.
I suppose by even posting this I’m doing the same but I can’t promise that I’ll keep trying indefinitely (though I have to admit I get roped into doing so).
What I would call a well thought-out response from you, Robert, is one that has any chance of being implemented in the real world.
For example, in the real world, your idea that all the streets be owned privately really has no chance of ever happening. It’s true that there are some examples of turnpikes (but even most of them are owned publicly even if operated by private companies) but is there one single instance, apart from gated communities, of streets such as Main Street through downtown Dayton being owned privately? Do you seriously expect that Dayton might sell Main Street to private investors?
I bet you can’t even write a description of a city all of whose streets are privately owned that explains just how charging for use of those privately owned streets would work, much less write a description of how such a scenario might come to pass in any city in the United States.
Similarly, saying that the way to reduce healthcare costs is to let anyone who cares to open up shop and start doing simple procedures is u- (or dys-) topian. Do you seriously think that in the United States the laws will be changed so that you can start doing simple procedures for a fee without any licensing?
If you’d said something along the lines of “Why do we need doctors to do simple procedures? Why can’t properly licensed nurse practitioners be allowed to do them?”, then I might think that your idea was well thought out. Saying that Robert Vigh non-M.D. or Joe the Stitcher should be allowed to set up shop to do stitches doesn’t strike me as any more realistic than your idea about privately owned streets.
Perhaps I’m socialisticly stupid, but you’re blinded by your free market utopia.
Dave, stop and take a deep breath. Done? Now explain to us again how taxing hospitals is going to bring down health care costs. There is a cornucopia of fixes for fixing medical bills, and you even tap-danced around a few of them. You mentioned the skill of Army medics, and our medic in Vietnam (a hick from Oklahoma with barely a high school educati0n) once performed an emergency appendectomy in the Boi Loi Woods north of Tay Ninh. Once, when El Bandito accidentally stepped in front of a slapshot, a trainer threw two stiches into yours truly’s face so quickly he never missed a shift, and there is barely a scar 30 years later. The problem, which you did not address David, are those who use the ER as their primary medical resource. Illegal aliens have bankrupted hospital after hospital on the west coast, yet our government, intoxicated by the twin lures of cheap labor and potential Democrat Party voters, looks the other way. Practicioners, like the former medics and trainers who could have performed the rather simple procedure of stitching, are denied the opportunity to practice under the threat of law. This pseudo-monopoly of the college educated leave minor injuries untreated. Furthermore, as anyone who has walked into an ER on the first week of the month can testify, the problem is exacerbated by the various shootings, stabbings and drug overdoses (making our medical care system a de facto enabler and subsidizer of crime) and cases that are clearly not emergencies. There is not problem in our health care system that a shot of free market, libertarian serum couldn’t cure, yet our mindless solons seek the force a Bolshevized system on an unwilling and skeptical public. And David Esrati wants to impose even more taxes………….
DL,
There is always a chance that freedom could be implemented. I also realize that I argue extremes, and while my extreme my not be an immediate shift from our current position, by creating and validating the extreme creates the opportunity and the willingness to migrate that direction. I believe that every step in the libertarian direction will be a positive one for society. It is also a method for people to see what is going on. In our 2 party political system, it is often about who is right and who is wrong and many forget to ask…………should they even be allowed?
You hit on an idea that I like. License people to do lessor procedures. I am not a huge fan of licensing, but this is at least more free then the previous scenario and creates greater supply to the market. This benefits society. However, what is the original impediment that we are removing for society’s benefit: Licensing restrictions imposed by the government.
If you feel that the FDA and streets are primary reasons why the libertarian viewpoint is not capable, then maybe Mr. Esrati would be kind enough to open a thread on the topic in which we could discuss the real economic/philosophic pros and cons. I would recommend the format be of the nature of how do we make it work since it has not been seen. Then at the end of the thread, people could draw their own conclusions.
@Ice Bandit, good post. I had not considered the crime subsidy, but I agree with you.
>Go watch the HBO series Deadwood- and you’ll see a doc like he describes.
That doc saved lives, cured ills, gave good solid advice, was an intelligent, well-spoken, kind and gentle man with an excellent bedside manner, AND that was 150 years ago. I’d take a doc like that today, any day of the week.
>Can anyone defend these practices? Can anyone tell me why a doctor can’t set a rate before working on a patient?
Yes, David. Since April, I’ve spent over nine weeks (some of that being 2 & 3 week stretches) in a hospital with health care professionals working to keep my daughter healthy. Doctors know that every patient is unique. Because every illness is unique. Because every patient’s response to each treatment is unique. There is no way for a doctor to know ahead of time what something is going to cost, because there are always exceptions, reactions, circumstances that doctors cannot foresee.
Health care is not broken, it’s keeping my daughter alive, that’s its function. But abuse of the healthcare system by many parties is rampant.
@Teri L- the doc in Deadwood was self-taught- and offered no guarantees.
The reality- a lot of procedures should be able to be done by “technicians” after diagnosis – like superficial stitches- etc. And prices could be posted- or a meter running that’s visible.
It’s funny- selling creativity- I still have to give a quote and perform.
Why can’t docs do the same?
>the doc in Deadwood was self-taught- and offered no guarantees. I’m very glad to hear you’ve lived a very healthy life, David, that you have so little experience with the health care system. My experience, personal and as a parent of a child with a chronic disease, is that no doctor gives guarantees. None. They don’t get paid to give guarantees. They get paid to offer the best advice they can, with the equipment at hand, give you probabilities. If this, then that, based on their experience, and their capacity to learn. Residents have no life. They spend all their working time in a hospital learning, then go home to self-teach. They are under guidance, but their abilities are based on their own capacity to teach themselves. Doctors are constantly checking results of studies, researching alternatives, teaching each other, consulting with other experts. It’s complex thinking skills. Then we add an entire team of people at work here, nurses, admin assit, various staff, all working together for the same goal. But wait, there’s more! Then doctors get to sit down with patients and loved ones and try to convey this complex information to people who may or may not understand everything they are being told. Who may or may not be able to follow instructions and doctors orders for any multitude of reasons. The complexity is extraordinary. The variables that cannot be controlled are numerous. What guarantees can be given under these circumstances? If you want quotes and specific performance, then every single patient is going to have to be exactly the same, and be in a position to take the exact same responsibility for their own health. I know. I know. That’s crazy talk. Anyway, David, that’s why you can’t post prices, run a meter. Too many variables. Medicine is an extraordinary combination of science, art, diplomacy, and uncommon sense, (and the doc in Deadwood had all that, btw. Truly one of the best depictions of a student of medicine in any fictional form). … Read more »