Antagonist? Catalyst? Realist? Change agent? It’s time for Dayton to face race.

I had a long conversation with a friend today. Someone inside the system, someone who wins elections. One on one, he stands up for me. In public, he keeps a safe distance. He wants me to change my style- I want him to stand up and take things head on. Somewhere, there is a middle ground- but, in Dayton it’s a no man’s land we don’t want to talk about, we avoid, we ignore and we pretend that it’s not the fundamental flaw- the root of all evil, what’s holding us back.

It’s as simple as this: Dayton is going to stay screwed until we integrate- and I’m not talking just Dayton, city of- I’m talking Dayton- regional.

This article that I quote below- from is the most prescient article I’ve read that sums up what’s holding us back. And it’s not the fault of the black people- it’s a fault of all of us. From Oakwood with its handful of black students- to Wright Patterson Air Force Base which does a crappy job of reaching out into the local community to support small and minority business.

It’s our political parties that play games with elections, and our poor excuse for a Federal Judge Walter Rice- who can’t realize that the “desegregation” process imposed on Dayton Public Schools in the seventies- did nothing to integrate the suburbs – foisting white flight, sprawl and a permanent screwing of the core city.

We now have a group of people who are convinced we can become a “progressive” hip mecca- without realizing that until we find ways to employ our minorities, we’re going to continue to have a class struggle- and a mess on our hands. No amount of “bicycle friendliness” or “complete streets” compares with good schools with opportunity or jobs that pay more than just a hardscrabble wage.

I highly recommend you read the whole thing- not just this excerpt- to find out why the dreams of the “Dayton Development Coalition” and their “Regional Rally” aren’t going to get us there- until we address the fundamental problems:

As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large. Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip? Many of the policies of Portland are not that dissimilar from those of upscale suburbs in their effects. Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable exactly the same as large lot zoning and building codes that mandate brick and other expensive materials do. They both contribute to reducing housing affordability for historically disadvantaged communities. Just like the most exclusive suburbs….

Lack of diversity in culture makes it far easier to implement “progressive” policies that cater to populations with similar values; much the same can be seen in such celebrated urban model cultures in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. Their relative wealth also leads to a natural adoption of the default strategy of the upscale suburb: the nicest stuff for the people with the most money. It is much more difficult when you have more racially and economically diverse populations with different needs, interests, and desires to reconcile.In contrast, the starker part of racial history in America has been one of the defining elements of the history of the cities of the Northeast, Midwest, and South. Slavery and Jim Crow led to the Great Migration to the industrial North, which broke the old ethnic machine urban consensus there. Civil rights struggles, fair housing, affirmative action, school integration and busing, riots, red lining, block busting, public housing, the emergence of black political leaders – especially mayors – prompted white flight and the associated disinvestment, leading to the decline of urban schools and neighborhoods.

via The White City |

The only way we are going to fix ourselves- and to balance things out, is going to take a gigantic community gut check- a deep swallow of humility, and a strong communal spine- one that stands up for what is right – really right. It’s going to take a Dr. King or Gandhi-like leaders- to march us down the path to what we have to do to compete- and survive: regionalize and integrate, whole hog, everything.

One government, one school system, one income tax, one zoning code, one region under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

And not just Montgomery County- we’d include Beavercreek, Fairborn, Springboro- even Xenia, Tipp and Troy if they were smart. Springfield too if they’d like. We’d become big, and we’d learn to share. We’d find the best of the best to lead us- and pay them well. We’d stop thinking small- and think like an Army taking on a battle of international proportions. We’d make sure that we thought about the big picture first- and stopped sweating the small stuff.

Of course, I’m crazy for thinking this- or saying it. In Dayton, we don’t do anything without a collective hug, and the blessing of the poobahs. But, as long as we stay divided, we’ll continue to fail.

The moment our numbers start being looked at as a region, and we start acting as one, we can start addressing the real inequities in Dayton, the ones that are holding us back. We can stop “protecting our turf” and start actually harvesting it and selling it to the world.

I’m not suggesting I can lead the charge, but at least I can call for it. I don’t have to protect myself, my position, or my power base. Call me an antagonist, call me a jerk, but- then look inside and after reading the article quoted above- tell me if there is another way to go. I want to know.

If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed! If you wish to support this blog, please head over and use our services at The Next Wave Printing for all your printing needs. We have 4 Color Business cards starting at just $13.50.

149 Responses

  1. Gene November 25, 2009 / 6:35 pm
    refuse to post comments…………

    I would be 86ed then :) !!!

  2. Jennifer Alexander November 25, 2009 / 7:35 pm
    Why do I feel so strongly against Mr. Javis’ comments, to the point that I would publicly state, that I will not spend $ in Beavercreek while he is still an elected official?  

    I moved to Sugarcreek 5 yrs ago, after living in Kettering for 33 yrs.  As a liberal democrat, I am a minority here. I may as well have a tattooed a Scarlet “L” on my forehead & a “kick me” sign on my back.  It has been a very eye opening experience. My daughter &  I are slapped in the face by others religious beliefs on a weekly basis… at public community events, at school & in our personal home. Just a few examples…
     My tires were slashed last fall on my suv in a public parking lot, with a nasty note letting me know they didn’t like my Obama bumper sticker & a list of reasons as to why I will rot in hell. 
     My daughter has been harassed at school by not only the staff but by classmates, because she participated in the “Day of Silence” showing her support of the LGBT community to raise awareness of equality issues. She has been told to her face by adult male strangers they’d “like to kick her ass” when she’s worn her Obama tee shirt. I can’t imagine the hell she would go through if she were gay.
     My daughter was denied her request to watch the Presidents Address to students this past fall (on her own, during study hall, in the library, online w/headphones & with a note from her mother) yet, she was required to stay in study hall & play poker. That same day in English class she was given a homework assignment based on the required reading of “Life of Pi”, the homework sheet required her to not only write an essay about her personal religious beliefs, but her parents as well. With questions like: What religion are you? Why?  What religion are your parents? Why?  Do you believe in God? Why? Why Not? Do your parents?  Then a conversation followed with the students going around the classroom being asked similar questions. I imagine next to her senior picture in the yearbook, her name will be omitted & it will just read “That Liberal Atheist”.
     Just 3 weeks ago when she & I waited in line for 5 hrs at the Greene County Fairgrounds to get the H1N1 shot, our line neighbor started yelling at the top of his lungs, that we were “whores” because we were democrats….a 60 yr old man publicly yelling at a 17 yr old girl in tears, that she’s a “whore” because she doesn’t agree with his politics.   Who do you think the security guard gave a hard time to?
     Separation of Church and State does not seem to have the same meaning in Greene County, with the exception of YS.
     Mr. Jarvis’ comments as a community leader evoke & embolden others to treat those in the LGBT community… as people who aren’t equals, who should not be respected or trusted. Just because you may find yourself on the opposite end of the spectrum as someone….does that also mean you loose all empathy & compassion for that human being? 

  3. Jeff November 25, 2009 / 10:16 pm
    Wow.  Just wow.  I’m speechless.
  4. Joe Lacey November 25, 2009 / 10:56 pm
    “Oh no the teh bigots are comfortable, run cause the pitchforks are coming out and their is going to be lynchings tonight, run, run ahhhhhh!.”  Mr. Vigh appears to now be mocking the legitimate concern about bigots murdering gay people, which is something that just happened in this country as recently as last week.  Apparently he thinks he’s entertaining us.
  5. Gene November 25, 2009 / 11:09 pm
    JA – ahhhh, MOVE. you did it at least once, why not again? When do you want me to hold your hand, when you move or when you drop your kid off at The Greene?

    The world is not perfect, YOU THOUGH, as you described above, have choices. I think you should choose something else…… move to San Fran….. exercise your parental rights – MOVE.

  6. Jeff November 25, 2009 / 11:34 pm
    I’m thinking of cutting and pasting Jennifers post on some other forums to show how wonderful suburban Dayton is.  Get Midwest!
  7. Jeff November 25, 2009 / 11:35 pm
    Hey Gene, you said yr from Louisville.  What school did you go to?
  8. Jennifer Alexander November 26, 2009 / 12:05 am
    Why should…I…have to alter my life plans?  I should just up & move & give up ? I shouldn’t demand that my child be treated as an equal & be protected by both State & Federal Laws that uphold the seperation of church & state in a public school district.  Just because the majority of my neighbors have faith in a god & attend church & study the Bible….does not give our school district the right to make their own rules & allow a teacher to inquire about our family’s faith & request students that are already under enough pressure to “fit in” to openly share their personal religious beliefs. 

    The narrow minded parents that didn’t want their children “exposed to the liberal agenda”  got their way with not having the Presidential Address viewed by their children….why isn’t my child just as important?   Because I’m different than them?  A high school girl is old enough legally, in Ohio, to obtain an abortion without parental consent…yet, she’s not able choose to view the President of her nation give a speech?  Why, because of fear & hate in our current political climate.  “Adults” at public meetings not being able to control themselves….. have we lost all civility & respect for one another?

    Gene the world may not be perfect in my eyes, but that doesn’t mean I should lower my expections in others & myself.

  9. Gene November 26, 2009 / 7:46 am
    Sure. Make a community that has been there for a hundred years change because YOU moved into town. JA, get real. YOU MOVED THERE, you can move out. You moved without doing your homework. This world does not revolve around you.

    Did any other parent have a problem with this?

    There is no separation of church and state in school? Public schools are allowed to teach comparative religion, and asking those question can be a part of the lesson plan. You don’t make the rules.

    Why did you not move to Dayton? A liberal, non-worshiping area, well for the most part. Why not Dayton? Would it have to do with your kids education?

    This is real easy. Move. You were in Kettering, why did you move from there? You are a typical liberal. Why not take this to the Ohio Supreme Court?

    I am not trying to be mean about this – I agree with you on everything. But the fact still remains that you lived in Kettering for 33 years then moved 5 years ago and want an entire community to change because you showed up. I think it would be a lot easier for you to move rather than that community change. You have choices, exercise your right to chose. Don’t make this more complicated that it needs to be.
    Lived in Louisville til I was 9. I really don’t know that much about Louisville. Happy Sappy Turkey Gravy

  10. Robert Vigh November 26, 2009 / 12:45 pm
    Joe Lacey,
    DL said: Why if you let teh gayz marry, pretty soon all the kidz will be turnin’ gay and then the human race will go extinct.
    I was using the same exaggerated flair. I assumed you had read all the posts or had the memory to put that together. You are flying your gay pride flag and elevating your personal concerns. A gay man was killed last week. How many people have been killed between now and then?
    To JA: There is no doubt there are plenty of people insensitive to your needs in your neighborhood. But, what is your complaint other than people pick on me and I dont like it? Tip #1, Dont put your daughter in a t-shirt that says: “I support a man that is going to forcibly take away your freedom”, unless you are looking for a reaction. Tip #2. If you want your daughter to watch something during a school day that is not being shown………try using a DVR or skipping school. You also Assume many things, like.presidential addresses are relevant, pertinent and belong in the classroom. In the same breath you complain you admit you would force your own views upon them if you could.
  11. Rusty Shackleford November 26, 2009 / 12:53 pm
    So, Gene, if a black or Jewish family moved into a Dayton suburb and their house was firebombed, I assume that you’d say that they shouldn’t expect the community to change just for them.

    Cro-magnons like you make Dayton the hateful place that it is.

  12. Robert Vigh November 26, 2009 / 1:10 pm
    Actually Rusty, Firebombing is against the law. Whereas What JA complains about is not (except for tire slashing). Good job exaggerating something that Gene did not say and using that to toss him a personal insult. Which by the way was basically what JA was complaining about. ……this is where I would insert some nasty statement about you personally if I chose to follow your example.
  13. Rusty Shackleford November 26, 2009 / 1:22 pm
    Absolutely unbelievable that you’re defending “Gene” against this. How Daytonian, how insular, how “just go to hell if you don’t fit in.” You and Gene are as much idiots as the welfare clowns braying during the run up to the last presidential election that Obama was going to buy their groceries and pay their rent.
  14. Gary Staiger November 26, 2009 / 1:39 pm
    @Robert Vigh//I thought I was done with this thread but reading your stupid and ignorant comments brings me back, to add you to my Troll list. You are a worse ‘agent provocateur’ than Gene, which is hard to fathom.
    Your comments to JA are so insensitive as to beg the question of your humanity.  You think it is ok for “citizens” to curse a high school kid for wearing a t-shirt that has a slogan they don’t like? Why? Whatever happened to tolerance? AND  There IS a separation between church and state. Thomas Jefferson saw this, why don’t you? [ ]
    Have you ever read the 1st Amendment to the constitution???.
    One last note, Rusty, I think characterizing Gene and Robert Vigh as Cro Magonn;s is an insult to the intelligence of  the Cro-Man.
  15. Gene November 26, 2009 / 9:10 pm
    Well Gary, if you are going to insult me I may as well insult you. At least I don’t live off the government.  JA has the choice to abort, which you folks support. She also has the right to move. Grow TF up.
    She is exaggerating anyway. She want The Greene to change for her. Typical liberals crying at every moment.
    She has choices. I suggest she exercises those choice. AND BTW dumb asses, I agreed with her on everything up to the point where I know she has the opportunity to leave. She chooses not to.

    Gary you re-started it – I fired back. YOU ARE ON MY TROLL LIST.

  16. Jennifer Alexander November 26, 2009 / 10:19 pm
    Well, Gene since you want to take this to a personal level & on Thanksgiving & accuse me of exaggerating… invitation to my home anytime you would like.  I’m not pulling my child out of school in the middle of her senior year, nor could I sell my $250,000 home overnight & even if I could find a buyer, I’m too damn sick from my chemo meds & extended release morphine at the moment to hardly even get through the grocery store without vomitting…so I don’t think I’ll be house hunting anytime soon

  17. Gene November 26, 2009 / 10:27 pm
    Rusty, to clarify, since you have not read all of the posts, I think the JA had options and should have moved to a more liberal area. Gary said these people are not tolerant, well I think liberals are not tolerant of conservative thought. Gary throws out insults, as did you Rusty. Not very tolerant there are you boyz……

    I do not advocate teaching religion in school, but they do this to some degree. Would not be my choice, but they do have comparative religion classes, among others. History classes can often tie in religion as well. JA really was not specific on the situation, and for the record I am against it. I am for a separation of church and state, however it is not law, or at least 100% law. Therefore I TOLERATE teaching of religion bc I think a community has the right to teach what they believe is important. Heck, there is so much liberal teachings anymore it is a wonder why you folks don’t look in the mirror. It is a two way street.

    I think people making fun of you is just a part of life. It has happened to all of us. And if it is not violent then it is not illegal. I certainly don’t not advocate firebombing in any form.

    Most of you voted for a president that said he would end the war, now he is planning on extending it. I am against that ( a liberal view.) Wake up and smell the coffee.

    JA wanted The Greene to change for her and Bellbrook to change for her. I suggest dropping your daughter off at a safer place, boycott The Greene, move to Dayton ( a more liberal place, a place where I live and tolerate crime and liberal thought and all sorts of religions.)

    People always want to change the world but never want to change themselves. This is easy – if a criminal act was committed report it as a crime. If people are just making fun of you, fire back. If that is too much avoid them. If that is too hard to do then move. If the school system went beyond a “normal” lesson plan I suggest JA go to the school board and the state to deliver her disapproval.
    I would really love to know what happened in the classroom. But she could be exaggerating because she is against religion. Who knows?

    Rusty, I don’t think you have a clue to who I am. I am just sick of cry babies though. We are adults, we have choices. I suggest exercising your right to choose.

  18. Gene November 26, 2009 / 10:31 pm
    OK, JA, you MAY have been exaggerating. That is not the worst thing in the world. People do it all the time, especially if you are polar opposite to something. Even so, besides the tire, ignore these people. Call the police. Well, did you call the police? BC if it was so bad you should have call the police.

    I am not insulting you JA, just saying you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. But then again I have seen some big old moles this past year, so you never know…..

  19. Jennifer Alexander November 26, 2009 / 11:01 pm
    I’m a pretty tough woman, that can hold her own, my partner (male) is a very conservative republican …my complaints are not about “teasing” & my list of complaints was only brought up as a comparison. If simply being a member of the minority political party in Greene County has caused such grief for my myself & my daughter & I’m not a very vocal cheerleader for my party in most public settings….I can only have hearfelt concern for someone within the LGBT community here & when I read that a community leader suggested & compared a gay man to nothing better than a drug addict…I will cry foul…and as loud as I can!

    Next time you go hang out at your favorite “meat market” & drink, walk over to Books& Co & pick up the “Life of Pi”  the cover states it all…”you will believe in God after reading this book”…I am a firm supporter of giving students a well rounded education that includes the history of religion & the role that religion  has had on history…..but this education should not include an exploration of a students faith or their familys faith.  Even though I consider myself an atheist, I take my daughter to visit many different church communities & of different faiths…as I want her to find her own personal beliefs, rather than just being told as a young child…”this is what faith our family is & so you will be also”

    I did make a formal complaint with the school administration & they didn’t even respond…I dropped the issue at that point…as I figured it would only hurt my daughter to go any further with the conversation. 

  20. David Lauri November 26, 2009 / 11:23 pm
    @Robert Vigh: My comment about the human race going extinct if gay marriage were allowed was meant in part to mock your attempt to defend Brian Jarvis’s calling homosexuality a defect and in part an ironic allusion to actual arguments made by some opponents of same sex marriage.
    The opponents of same sex marriage who used that line of argument were oblivious to the fact that gay people do in fact have children, either through heterosexual sex or, in modern times, through in vitro fertilization.
    Your contention that the continuation of the human race required heterosexuality and that homosexuality must then be a defect is flawed reasoning.  Perhaps one reason the human race was able to flourish was that homosexual relatives brought additional resources to ensure the continuation of the human race.  For example, in hunting/gathering times, if daddy dies but mommy has a gay brother who can go out and hunt, then the kids would be less likely to starve. Homosexuality, given its prevalence and long history, could be part of the Divine plan if you’re into omnipotent Creators planning every detail or it could be part of evolution if you’re into the idea that genes that help the next generation survive tend to stick around.
    Defend Brian Jarvis’s calling homosexuality a genetic defect if you want, but do try to do a better job of it.
  21. Joe Lacey November 26, 2009 / 11:53 pm
    “A gay man was killed last week. How many people have been killed between now and then?”  Only one was killed because of attitudes toward gay people like Mr. Jarvis’, that gay people are somehow less than human.  Defending that notion contributes to the problem.  Mr. Vigh’s question suggests that the murder of gay people because of their orientation is of little concern because it doesn’t happen often enough.  The fact that more people are murdered for money than are murdered in hate crimes does not justify attempts to dehumanize gay people.
  22. Robert Vigh November 27, 2009 / 4:55 am
    Gary Staiger,
    I do not know what a troll list is, please enlighten me. Here is the 1st amendment:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.V
    So, pertinent to JA’s situation, how does this apply?

    Getting picked on is a part of life, period. If I lived in a liberal neighborhood, I would expect heightened friction if I wore an “Obama Sucks” t-shirt. Gary, please indicate to me where I say I condone people yelling at high schoolers. That is not my thing, but I am not going to pretend the world is perfect and wearing a controversial garment is not going to attract attention. You are also very clever with your cro-magnum man comment, I really felt that one. Please let me know if you have anything to post with substance.

    @DL, I was well aware that you were mocking me. It was exaggerated flair used as sarcasm and I understood it and thought it was funny. I adopted the same style, but in a view held in opposition.

    @DL and JL. The point of all the posts, taken as a whole was a path. I wish I did not have to point it out. Jarvis is a jerk for saying that a community should be able to deprive the sovereignty of the individual. That possibly a simple majority gets to force its beliefs on the minority. The defense of his homophobia was not the strongest defense, but it got Joe to arrive at the removal of freedom for Homosexuals. But go back and read it. It is the removal of freedom for anyone………………My point if you completely missed it, is that I think Jarvis is dead wrong. I simply do so on the basis of his entire underlying philosophy as opposed to just picking on gays. Furthermore, every time a law is passed that says killing anyone other than straight whitey is worse than killing straight whitey………..well, that is society at large saying killing straight whitey is not as bad. So…………..holding your hands again, MURDER is wrong. Kill Gay David, Kill Straight Robert…………either way, you ass is in the sling. Why would I encourage a law that dehumanizes the murdering of my demographic by elevating the importance of all surrounding demographics?

    @ Rusty: You read something out of context, embellished the negative on something you dont understand, threw in an insult and decided you had substance. You and Gary must share a computer. <— That is so much better than …..huh huh uh, dont insult cro-man huh huh.  

  23. Gary Staiger November 27, 2009 / 11:54 am

    If people are just making fun of you, fire back. If that is too much avoid them. If that is too hard to do then move.

    By this argument a racist taunt could be construed to be “just making fun of you”  The person doing the taunting is a  physically larger Male than you so you can’t fire back or you risk a beating. Since “firing back” is not an option your other option is to  move.
    That’s wrong.
    These are exactly the kinds of situations the 1965 Civil Right set out to correct. Discrimination by race is intolerable. Discrimination by gender has been added as has age discrimination. Sexual orientation is on the agenda but a far from settled question, although I personally fully support equal social rights fo the LGTB community.
    Discrimination is a natural part of life, we make discriminating choices everyday, over what to wear, what to eat, what we will do that day. Discrimination becomes negative is when it infringes  on the rights of others. I believe that is the heart of JA’s complaint about Beavercreek. And she is correct in demanding that those attitudes change because it is those attitudes that are intolerant, not her liberal leanings. Tolerance has to work both sides of the fence.
    According to your own statement Gene, you exhibit tolerance, which is not the same as acceptance, by living in Dayton amongst us sorry “liberal irreligious tree huggers”. Bravo for you, but guess what? I live next door to an old preacher and even tho I’m not religious,  Dick and I get along just fine, as I do with the large Catholic family across the street and the Baptists on the corner.
    Tolerance working both sides of the fence.
    I don’t think JA is asking for much more than that despite the straw dogs set on fire about forcing all the racist, sexist and homophobic citizens of Beavercreek  being forced to change PERSONAL beliefs. That was never on the table.

  24. Gene November 27, 2009 / 12:47 pm
    Political differences and racial slurs are two different things. Most adults understand this. There are TWO major political parties, and a lot of people side with one or another. Therefore you will always have some of disagreement. Just like if one Steelers fan moved into a neighborhood with a bunch of Browns fans, we can expect some friction. She is discriminated by Political affiliations, if you call taunting discrimination. She was not denied a home or work bc of this.

    She could fire back. And if a crime were committed then I would suggest that those criminals be prosecuted. But taunting is not really a crime, now is it.
    I tolerate a lot. I accept a lot, if not most things in life. I do not accept crime, but I tolerate it. JA moved to Bellbrook (or Beavercreek, can’t remember at this point) and has had a run in with “neighbors” and “the school.” But how often does this happen? Not all people are going to get along, and friction once in a while is par for the course with anyone living anywhere. That is a part of life. I have never, though, had any problems with any of my neighbors, or well maybe when I was a kid. I just ignore and accept. If the did something criminal then I would have a problem, especially if it was targeted at me.
    Comparing this to the Civil Rights Issues of the 1960s really diminishes what was accomplished then. This is nothing but a few people not getting along. That happens everywhere. People (liberals) love to make Mountains (like the Rockies) out of mole hills.

    She has a male partner, why does he not stick up for her? Maybe bc she is setting her own fires….

  25. Gary Staiger November 27, 2009 / 1:13 pm

    But taunting is not really a crime, now is it.

    No, it isn’t, except when those taunts rise to the level of negative discrimination through the use of  racial/sexist/homophobic language/slurs. All of which I will grant ahead of time presents a slippery slope between determining what is discrimination resulting in harm to the person discriminated against and what is merely offensive behavior. There is a LOT of case law on this…

  26. Gary Staiger November 27, 2009 / 1:16 pm
    and, BTW, Gene,

    She has a male partner, why does he not stick up for her? Maybe bc she is setting her own fires….

    many people would consider that  a very sexist comment. Intolerant as it were.

  27. Gene November 27, 2009 / 1:19 pm
    You are the one that said:

      The person doing the taunting is a  physically larger Male than you so you can’t fire back or you risk a beating. Since “firing back” is not an option your other option is to  move.

    I was going where you were taking it…….. maybe she did Set her own fire.

  28. Robert Vigh November 27, 2009 / 1:21 pm
    Your substance is better, your reading still needs some improvement. Ill take it from your silence, you could not figure out how the first amendment was violated in JA’s circumstances.
    Gene’s full quote: This is easy – if a criminal act was committed report it as a crime. If people are just making fun of you, fire back. If that is too much avoid them. If that is too hard to do then move.
    Meaning the larger male cannot attack without breaking the law. You cut/pasted what you wanted instead of the entire context.
    Per your post Gary, what rights of hers were violated? By what right does she to demand others change their attitudes? How is tolerance both sides of the fence if you declare her as correct, period? You contradict yourself.
  29. Gary Staiger November 27, 2009 / 2:53 pm
    There is no disagreement about reporting an act that is a crime to the proper authorities. There are many times when  that is simply not  enough. An extreme case is that of the city of Grenada Mississippi, where racial discrimination was so pervasive that it took Freedom Marchers and Dr Marlin Luther King’s involvement to bring about  and end to segregation in the late 60’s.

    Grenada county has always been a segregation stronghold. Over the previous century there have been a number of lynchings — four in one day in 1885. Few Negroes are registered to vote, and fewer still dare cast ballots. None get “uppity,” not if they want to stay. There has never been any significant Civil Rights Movement activity in the County, it was considered too tough a nut to crack. In May of 1966, Grenada still lived as if it were 1886.  [ ]

    Unfortunately,  American history is replete with examples like this. I wonder, Gene & Robert, what you would have said to Rosa Parks when she refused to give up her seat on that bus in Montgomery,Alabama…”if you don’t like the way people are treating you on this bus, you should  walk??”
    Definitely not the right answer

  30. Gene November 27, 2009 / 3:45 pm
    That was raced based. Our situation here is a person getting verbally taunted for being a liberal. That is not that bad – you people elected a liar. He said he would end the war, he is extending it. He wants to tax us to death. He wants to take away people’s choices. The Republicans are not any better, btw.

    Heck, from Glenn Beck to Sean Hannity to Billo -*-*-*- to Keith Olberman to Bill Maher to Gary Staiger :)  you have an on going Right vs Left throwing verbal punches. It is all over TV and the Internet. She acted as if she has never heard of one side belittle and criticize the other side. Well, it is all over TV and the Internet. It is nothing new.

    The problem here is that people (especially liberals) are always “outraged.” Well, fine, if it pertained to actual discrimination. But this situation is the same in every sports bar over any given weekend, but it politics and not sports. I think being a democrat is certainly enough to be made fun of. As long as it does not go over the line (ie criminal.) Gary, comparing this to real discrimination is setting that movement back 50 years. According to you every time someone does something that you don’t like it can be viewed as discrimination. Well, some of us act like adults and move on. I would not give this situation the time of day if it happened to me. I would laugh it off. But she was “offended.” Oh dear, where does that end? 

    Rosa did the right thing, basically saying “kiss my ass I will sit where I want.” JA situation is in no way comparable. This is not apples and oranges, rather apples and snowflakes.

  31. Robert Vigh November 27, 2009 / 3:50 pm
    I would have sided with her. I would have sided in the prosecution of the murderers enacting lynchings. I find it hard to believe I would have lived at that time without being really pissed off at the lack of liberty for people.
    Gary, have you not read my posts. Everything I say revolves around freedom. Freedom for gays, freedom for blacks and freedom for jerk off’s who want to believe what they want to. You cannot FORCE someone to think differently. You cannot enact thought police.
    Furthermore, what are you comparing to Rosa Parks? JA’s being called a whore by a white republican .vs mandated civil law which persecuted and jailed black people for wanting equal status? Seriously, get a grip. Just because I choose to point out what looks like embellishment and has the opportunity to go to far and take rights away from another group does not make me a racist. Which, you seem intent on trying to submit. What historical scenario would you like to type out and assume which way I would respond to next?
    I am on the side of freedom. I am not on the side of lets make laws and tell people how to live because somebody’s feelings got hurt.
  32. Jennifer Alexander November 27, 2009 / 4:38 pm
    I enjoy a great political debate & hold more respect for someone that can communicate their beliefs & holds them firm vs. the apathetic without a clue or care. Like I stated before, I’ve gone to sleep every night for over 10 yrs with someone on the opposite end of the political spectrum….do we fight like hell sometimes over politics in the privacy of our own  home, yes. Would either of us take that intense level of debate outside of our home & into the face of a stranger with hateful angry words or actions, no. So, I think I’m well equipped & experienced with being able to have a healthy relationship with someone, I just don’t agree with politically & still have respect for them.
     I can drive by citizens on a corner, holding support signs for a candidate or issue that are in opposition of my own & while I might be aggravated…I am also very respectful of their beliefs & the effort they are putting forth with excising their rights. I would never roll down my window or stop to insult them. I would never go find their cars with thoughts of vandalism. I would never, absolutely never approach their children & curse at them. Yet, I have found myself & my daughter being confronted for our differences, with obscene & hateful words & actions…in situations & conversations where we have nothing more than mentioned that we were democrats. 
    I was raised with grace & with respect & try my very best to conduct myself in respectable manner. While living the majority of my life in Montgomery County, I obviously interacted with those of opposing political beliefs & and of many different faiths. As we all do, rather it be in the work place or even in our own families. I was also much more active with the democratic party & much more vocal with my beliefs in Montgomery County than I am in Greene County. So I was much more on the radar & taunting my liberal pride flag back then. I sincerely do not ever remember being in a situation where a political debate or difference in opinion, in either public or private, ever escalated beyond raised voices. Nothing in comparison to what I feel I encounter now that I live in Greene County.
     Might I possibly be more sensitive & aware that I am the minority here & I’m more observant & aware of how those around me are reacting to me? Maybe, yet ever so slightly.
    Might the difference be that as a whole, our national political climate itself seems to have escalated with heightened emotions?
     Or are members of the conservative right in Greene County much more aggressive with a mob mentality?  Has it always been so aggressive & in-your-face with intolerance to outsiders of the club?
    Or is this something new?  Does having a black man in the White House have anything to do with the heightened emotions out here in the rural suburbs?  Are the kids out here being groomed, because of the lack of diversity in their lives & the adults heightened political anger….to not be able to think outside of the box?

    Or,have I just experienced the perfect storm of all of the above combined?

  33. Gary Staiger November 27, 2009 / 4:40 pm
    my intent with the example of Grenada using it  as an extreme case, was to illustrate  how there are times when a mere complaint to authorities is not enough, that it can take  larger response to solve the problem.
    In JA’s situation I would first want to determine that this wasn’t just happening to one person, JA, and if it was wider spread and vested authority was not willing to address the problem then other remedies might be sought. In the situation at hand with  JA it is the people who were taunting her were the intolerant ones. Why should she have to tolerate intolerance just because someone  says it in a “sports” bar.
    And Gene, please note that I was very clear about the “slippery slope” that is attached to any charge of discrimination.

    All of which I will grant ahead of time presents a slippery slope between determining what is discrimination resulting in harm to the person discriminated against and what is merely offensive behavior.


  34. Lisa November 27, 2009 / 6:48 pm
    Ok this is getting silly.  JA is not the only democrat in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek.  There were many Obama signs in my neighborhood in Bellbrook and they were not stolen, vandalized, or otherwise messed with.  My daughter is in the same graduating class as JA’s daughter, so I asked her if her daughter was getting harassed at school.  She told me that some football players has made some comments to her during the Day of Silence, but not any other students or teachers.  She added that she and her friends thought that the football players were acting like idiots.  As for the Obama speech, she said that study hall teacher doesn’t let the kids out of class to do anything and that she didn’t think that it was political.   I can’t really comment on the book read in her English class because my daughter isn’t in that class and had a different reading list.  I’m curious – how did the man in the line for the flu shot know that JA and her daughter were Democrats?
    Btw my car was also vandalized (keyed)  in Sugarcreek Twp for conservative stickers that were on it during the 2004 elections.
    Just had to stick up fo Bellbrook and Sugarcreek.  We’re not all a bunch of intolerant thugs!
  35. Jennifer Alexander November 27, 2009 / 8:07 pm
    Lisa, I never stated that I was the only dem in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek, just a member of the minority. Nor did I ever use the word “thug”. Nor, have I stated that EVERY republican, is insensitive & abrasive to those with opposing views. Political signs of all parties are stolen on a regular basis,unfortunate, yet no big deal.

     What may be “silly” to you, isn’t to me or my family. As I would never claim to understand what affects your child’s emotional & educational well being.
    Nor, have I even posted the worst of my concerns, since this is a public forum, with a child involved. For you to question your daughter about how MY daughter is treated, really adds nothing to the conversation, in my opinion. Unless, your daughter walks in my child’s shoes & is privy to every aspect of her daily school experience. Your daughter has no inside information to every conversation that my child has with classmates or teachers. As you also don’t have any idea of what conversations & interactions, that I, as her parent, have had with teachers, administration & other parents.
    Therefore, you can only make comment on your own daughter’s experience within this school district & your own as a parent. With that, I am very interested & open to conversing how parents of different political beliefs look at the same school district
    Study hall & the Presidential Address…your daughter is wrong with that, the kids are allowed to leave every day, for a variety of reasons, tuturing, clubs, make-up test, whatever, as long as they have note from another teacher, giving them permission to leave…& she did have a note from the school librarian. 
    H1N1 line neighbor, how did he know we were democrats…..because he told us that it was “President Obama’s fault that we were having to wait in line for 5 hours to get a shot & that the President himself should be shot” (and he didn’t mean with a vaccine) I told the man, in as a polite & mild mannered as I could, “well, I disagree with you, I support the President & would prefer you not talking about shooting anyone in front of my child”.
    May I ask you, when your car was “keyed” how do you know that it was because of conservative bumper stickers? Were you left a note? Did it include a “Top Ten Reasons Your GOP Ass Will Rot In Hell List”?
    May I also ask your last name, since you didn’t post using it. Not that, I, would open this adult conversation/debate to my daughter.


  36. Joe Lacey November 27, 2009 / 11:03 pm
    Mr. Vigh says “Furthermore, every time a law is passed that says killing anyone other than straight whitey is worse than killing straight whitey………..well, that is society at large saying killing straight whitey is not as bad.”

    Hate crime statutes are written to add penalties to bias motivated crimes against people because of their race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.  If someone kills “straight whitey” because he is white or because he is heterosexual then that triggers the increased penalties of the hate crime statute.   Hate crimes laws are not written to give harsher punishment to the murder of minorities as Mr. Vigh says.

  37. Robert Vigh November 27, 2009 / 11:36 pm
    Joe, you are correct.
    I guess I see the hate part as redundant to murder. So, your correction stands and I will think on the redundancy into the future. Lets agree to disagree at this point. There was alot of posts and really all I wanted to get at was I thought Jarvis was wrong, for reasons that included Gays, but was not limited to them. Sorry for the initial misdirection.
  38. Lisa November 28, 2009 / 6:18 am
    I used the word thug because people who key cars/ slash tires/ confront teenage girls are thugs, and if that man in line keeps running his mouth like that he is going to get a visit  from the Secret Service.  My point is that most people in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek aren’t like that.  I do apologize for using the word silly though.
  39. Lisa November 28, 2009 / 6:54 am
    BTW the reason I did not and will not use my last name is that I didn’t want to post about my daughter in a personally identifiable way.  I actually ran across your post and a link to this thread on citydata which is read by people from all over the country.
  40. Gene November 28, 2009 / 8:58 am
    Thank you Lisa. I knew I was right the whole time. JA exaggerated and was “outraged” over minor stuff. You see folks it is my years of diligent study of liberals that allows me to know when the complaints have merit or when the complaints are just a little too sensitive. It is this insight that I provide to all of you. You can all thank me later. These “stories” were a little  too convenient for liberals to rally around. And yes, after Lisa brought this up, I now remember a LOT of Obama signs in “Republican” areas…… In fact, I stated that I saw so many Obama signs  in conservative areas that I knew Obama would win (that was my reason, signs in the likes of Oakwood.) That was never the case in past years. You rarely would see Clinton or Gore or Kerry signs. JA was just too sensitive. Thank you again Lisa. And yes, liberal readers, I was stereotyping a liberal. A liberal is one who often blows up or makes things up to make the world seem bad and hateful. My experience is that most liberals are simply “outraged” for the sake of being dramatic. If you need my insight again, please ask. Thank you.
  41. Gary Staiger November 28, 2009 / 12:34 pm

    ” [my] years of diligent study of liberals that allows me to know when the complaints have merit or when the complaints are just a little too sensitive.

    I gotta admire someone who has as much hubris as you do. You are truly “special”.

  42. Jennifer Alexander November 28, 2009 / 12:42 pm

    Gene your so wrong. I don’t even think this “Lisa”  exist & even if she does & if her daughter is as all knowing about MY daughter as Lisa thinks she is…….she would know why my daughter  left her regular lunch table this past week.  She would know which regular teacher sub  is friends w/ most of the students on FaceBook & post remarks (harassing) about the students “religion” & told my daughter “she didn’t like her religion” & has fought w/ several other students about religion.

    She would know the name of the math teacher my daughter had that during my parent teacher conference with her, that couldn’t give her any extra help during study hall, yet offered me to have my daughter join her Prayer Group & and we could all pray for a better grade.

    Even if Lisa is real & lives here & her daughter was MY daughter’s best friend….she still wouldn’t know half of what we’ve put up with here & have just dealt with & kept our mouths shut about to avoid anymore conflict for her…..I know that my biggest regret as a parent will always be having moved here. I tell my family I moved 4 miles down the road & 40 yrs back to Appalachia.  We never the first time, ever encountered a situation in the Kettering schools that we felt as if religion was ever more than a personal family issue. 

    Would also imagine if we had stayed in the Kettering schools my daughter would have been taught about the Civil War…as her teacher skipped over those chapters here in Bellbrook, when I asked the teacher why “because the Civil War isn’t hardly touched on in the Ohio Graduation Test”.

    @Gene & Robert
    “teachers may not require students to modify, include or excise religious views in their assignments”

    Let us also not forget how Sugarcreek & the loving nonjudgemental Christians here made national news, not to long ago
     “The answer may be that the Islamic Society of Greater Dayton is moving its mosque to the distant and white suburbs of Sugarcreek Township — a plan approved just days before the alleged incident, as this pre-incident Dayton Daily News article records. Whoever was behind this hate crime hoax may have calculated that any resistance to the mosque in Sugarcreek Township might be weakened by the proposition that Muslims were being threatened by black males in the mosque’s present location. ”
    “We just feel that Christianity is right and that Islam is wrong,” Jude told the Daily News. “Therefore, we take a stand to see (a mosque) not in our community.”

  43. Gene November 28, 2009 / 12:55 pm
    Thank you Gary. It is hard work keeping up with a group that complains all the time. A typical liberal, although well intentioned, brings up minor and little known stories to make their points. That is certainly fine, but they almost always are exaggerated stories. A typical liberal, who generally means well, is “outraged” over situations that are not important, minor or just are not worth bringing up.

    Over there years I have study the liberal thought process, a process that involves huge assumptions and leaping to conclusions. All this time I knew JA was making a mountain out of a mole hill, a liberal specialty. Liberals love to play the victim card, I called her out on it and Lisa backed up my assumptions. Again, my assumptions were based on years and years of studying the “outraged” liberal.

    I love to stereotype liberals. It is easier that way. You can mock me, but I am 100% right. Thank you. Where should I send the bill Gary? You have learned so much from me I might as well charge you.

  44. Gary Staiger November 28, 2009 / 1:06 pm
    2001 N main st
    Dayton, Oh, 45405
  45. David Lauri November 28, 2009 / 5:02 pm
    I have to thank Brian Jarvis for being a man of conviction, willing to meet me for lunch to talk about his words.  Unfortunately, I also have to say that I came away from our conversation with less understanding than I’d hoped for:
  46. Gene November 28, 2009 / 5:37 pm
    thanks for backing me up. She was not taught religion, rather about religion maybe. You are making this easy for me JA. Gary, what is a fair price for my advise. $100.00? Let me know and I will send you an invoice.

    Teaching About Religion
    5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said, “[i]t might well be said that one’s education is not complete without a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization.” It would be difficult to teach art, music, literature and most social studies without considering religious influences.  
    The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature (either as a separate course or within some other existing course), are all permissible public school subjects.

  47. Gary Staiger November 28, 2009 / 6:23 pm
    @david L.
    Your blog post is a great send up of Brian Jarvis.
  48. Jennifer Alexander November 28, 2009 / 6:38 pm

    @Gene….again….the Final Grade Essay for the entire 9 weeks after reading this book…required students to reflect not on the book but on their own personal & family religious beliefs…if they have in God? Do your parents have faith in God? What faith are you & your parents? It is against the law to require a student to share their own beliefs.

    You or Robert earlier asked why I don’t remove her from the school district if I don’t like them questioning my or my child’s faith….shouldn’t it  be the other way around…if a parent wants their child to taught about faith…that they remove their child & send them to Alter or Xenia Christian…private schools not public that are state & federally funded


  49. Gene November 29, 2009 / 8:01 am
    Actually, JA, you are wrong. They had a final essay and only one person had a problem with it – you. I guess I should just come out and say it – you are making stuff up.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *