Antagonist? Catalyst? Realist? Change agent? It’s time for Dayton to face race.
I had a long conversation with a friend today. Someone inside the system, someone who wins elections. One on one, he stands up for me. In public, he keeps a safe distance. He wants me to change my style- I want him to stand up and take things head on. Somewhere, there is a middle ground- but, in Dayton it’s a no man’s land we don’t want to talk about, we avoid, we ignore and we pretend that it’s not the fundamental flaw- the root of all evil, what’s holding us back.
It’s as simple as this: Dayton is going to stay screwed until we integrate- and I’m not talking just Dayton, city of- I’m talking Dayton- regional.
This article that I quote below- from NewGeography.com is the most prescient article I’ve read that sums up what’s holding us back. And it’s not the fault of the black people- it’s a fault of all of us. From Oakwood with its handful of black students- to Wright Patterson Air Force Base which does a crappy job of reaching out into the local community to support small and minority business.
It’s our political parties that play games with elections, and our poor excuse for a Federal Judge Walter Rice- who can’t realize that the “desegregation” process imposed on Dayton Public Schools in the seventies- did nothing to integrate the suburbs – foisting white flight, sprawl and a permanent screwing of the core city.
We now have a group of people who are convinced we can become a “progressive” hip mecca- without realizing that until we find ways to employ our minorities, we’re going to continue to have a class struggle- and a mess on our hands. No amount of “bicycle friendliness” or “complete streets” compares with good schools with opportunity or jobs that pay more than just a hardscrabble wage.
I highly recommend you read the whole thing- not just this excerpt- to find out why the dreams of the “Dayton Development Coalition” and their “Regional Rally” aren’t going to get us there- until we address the fundamental problems:
As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large. Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip? Many of the policies of Portland are not that dissimilar from those of upscale suburbs in their effects. Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable exactly the same as large lot zoning and building codes that mandate brick and other expensive materials do. They both contribute to reducing housing affordability for historically disadvantaged communities. Just like the most exclusive suburbs….
Lack of diversity in culture makes it far easier to implement “progressive” policies that cater to populations with similar values; much the same can be seen in such celebrated urban model cultures in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. Their relative wealth also leads to a natural adoption of the default strategy of the upscale suburb: the nicest stuff for the people with the most money. It is much more difficult when you have more racially and economically diverse populations with different needs, interests, and desires to reconcile.In contrast, the starker part of racial history in America has been one of the defining elements of the history of the cities of the Northeast, Midwest, and South. Slavery and Jim Crow led to the Great Migration to the industrial North, which broke the old ethnic machine urban consensus there. Civil rights struggles, fair housing, affirmative action, school integration and busing, riots, red lining, block busting, public housing, the emergence of black political leaders – especially mayors – prompted white flight and the associated disinvestment, leading to the decline of urban schools and neighborhoods.
The only way we are going to fix ourselves- and to balance things out, is going to take a gigantic community gut check- a deep swallow of humility, and a strong communal spine- one that stands up for what is right – really right. It’s going to take a Dr. King or Gandhi-like leaders- to march us down the path to what we have to do to compete- and survive: regionalize and integrate, whole hog, everything.
One government, one school system, one income tax, one zoning code, one region under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
And not just Montgomery County- we’d include Beavercreek, Fairborn, Springboro- even Xenia, Tipp and Troy if they were smart. Springfield too if they’d like. We’d become big, and we’d learn to share. We’d find the best of the best to lead us- and pay them well. We’d stop thinking small- and think like an Army taking on a battle of international proportions. We’d make sure that we thought about the big picture first- and stopped sweating the small stuff.
Of course, I’m crazy for thinking this- or saying it. In Dayton, we don’t do anything without a collective hug, and the blessing of the poobahs. But, as long as we stay divided, we’ll continue to fail.
The moment our numbers start being looked at as a region, and we start acting as one, we can start addressing the real inequities in Dayton, the ones that are holding us back. We can stop “protecting our turf” and start actually harvesting it and selling it to the world.
I’m not suggesting I can lead the charge, but at least I can call for it. I don’t have to protect myself, my position, or my power base. Call me an antagonist, call me a jerk, but- then look inside and after reading the article quoted above- tell me if there is another way to go. I want to know.
@Joe L and Jen- I’m sorry- I thought I’d allow my readers to take care of this- and, I feel they did quite well.
@Gene- Why was Dayton forced to integrate under court order- and no suburban communities were? Do you understand?
A guy fell off the banister…. hardly news worthy. Stupid people + Alcohol = Injury to Stupid person.
It passed the safety regulations……. thousands of people have managed to go up and down those stairs, both drunk and sober, black and white, male and female, and they seem to negotiate the terms of the stairs and stairwell/railing. BTW, they have an elevator. Next time Stupid person, if tempted, should take elevator.
“the public has no idea what really goes on there.” What does that mean. What goes on there is the same at the Dayton Mall and most every other place that is designed like that… and the public goes there, all the time. That is who they want there. It is open to everyone.
Dayton was forced……… it was wrong. So you propose to do wrong things in the suburbs now.
Answer the question. You state that Oakwood does not have enough black people. Why don’t they move there then? Is Oakwood discouraging black people from moving there? If so, where is the proof. Black people do live in Oakwood, there are over 100 house for sale and many for rent. Round them up and tell them they are able to get into Oakwood. Will they? Ask the black folk…. most don’t want to move, and don’t want to have anything to do with Oakwood. Why? Again, ask them
I guess Oakwood could half forced half the Smith kids to go to Harman and half the Harman kids go to Smith. Would that have made a difference though?
I’m with Joe on this…David, I went “off topic”, yet I have to say I was fuming all day long yesterday about Mr. Javis comments & it wasn’t just one…he just kept on digging his ditch deeper with insults after insults. More importantly to me….you didn’t pipe in at all, which you normally do, and when you finally did it was only in praise of getting back on track.
Me too. The entire point of Jarvs’ discourse was about disrespect. And perhaps a bit about trolling. Maybe it means the gay issue is what’s salient here, not so much the racial one. No one is going to seriously going to cop to racist attitudes or stereotypes, but it’s still OK for guys like Jarvis to make comments like he did about lesbians and gays, and essentially say that they need to quit whining for being discriminated against if they are out of the closet, to take personal responsibility for the consequences of others prejudices.
Then there is the genetic defect comment, which has a whif of eugenics to it.
Lacey’s comment was right in relation to me because I did take a pass on discussing this, but I just get tired of dealing with the homophobia over and over again online.
@ Gene, There is more to this story at the Greene than just another stupid drunk falling over a banister. There is more to this story than just the “reported ” 30 plus 911 calls to the police/fire in Beavercreek to this particular bar since just May. Yet, many can’t or won’t comment because there is still pending litigation from the first accident/death. There is some responsibility in the hands of an establishment with a liquer permit….
(ORC 4301.22 (B)) DON”T sell any alcoholic beverages to an intoxicated person.
It should be common sense when enough is enough & you stop serving & when you seek help.
If the media were to dig deeper & interview more people…it would be news worthy, employees are the ones who tipped them off in the first place.
It is a meat market. That ain’t news. What do you want to know about the place? It is a bar. Alcohol rules, and drugs exist. Again, it is a meat market with meat heads. Go see for yourself.
They did report it, and they would report it if it were to happen DT Dayton, but no one ever goes to those bars anymore. So now those bars are pretty safe.
@ Gene, I know more than enough about this place & I know what goes on there first hand & you don’t need to describe the place to me, I’ve held temp independent contracts with the company….I also know what a young mans brain looks like outside of it’s skull & I know when you stop playing games & encouraging drunks to drink more. I can also read board of health reports & police public records. Enough said.
Well there you go then. What is the problem if you know so much? Every bar I go to, or ever have gone to, over serves. Only a few people go beyond the point of no return, a lot end up just really drunk. This place is not that different from a lot of other places. That is my point.
My question is what is your beef with this place? You seem to know a lot about it. Is it the media coverage, or lack thereof? The management? Other employees? Please tell.
I have a problem with a police department, that time after time, only gives verbal “warnings” for the same severe offenses …to keep the spotlight off their community & new prized shopping center…so that the $ keeps flowing in. The offenders wrongful actions get worse, because they know whatever happens, it will get swept under the rug. Do you not question why it took almost 2 weeks for the media to pick this story up? This shopping center is close to my home & my teenager spends lots of time there with friends…..it is marketed as a family towne center….to drive through on a weekend night, it sure isn’t a place I would refer to as family friendly. I think that the community has a right to know what all is really going on at the place where they drop their kids off to shop & go to the movies.
Brian Jarvis’ view echo those of religious & cultural leaders like Raleigh Trammell and Rev. Shanklin in leading opposition to the Dayton anti discrimination ordinance. Homophobia exists in many forms and it seems to me that that religious opposition is among the most venomous and intolerant.
Race and sexual identity are inextricably linked and cannot be separated. Why people like Brian think the way they do is not a local, Beavercreek issue. I did some quick research into homophobia among a African Americans and came came up with the following articles.
Are Blacks More Homophobic?
By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2003/09/10/are_blacks_more
The failure to transform: Homophobia in the Black community
Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church
… of religious affiliation, service attendance, and other factors to homophobic attitudes among …
Thank you Gary for the sharing the links. I’ve always felt as if there seemed to be more homophobia within the African American community, yet I’m rather startled now to the extent. Here’s a link about the violent homophobia in Jamaica & how prevelant it is within the reggae music community.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/03/violent-homophobia-in-jamaica.htm
I know that homophobia exists in every neck of the woods. I also feel that voters should be aware of those elected officials that make such comments publicly.
Speaking of “defects” has anyone checked out Jarvis’ website? I was visitor #59 according to his counter. That would be today– weeks after his election–meaning all of a couple dozen voters in Beavercreek bothered to check him out before electing him. That explains a lot.
Based on what I know of the gay rights struggle in Kentucky, in Lexington and Louisville, I can’t make a broad brush statment that African Americans or African American politicians are going to oppose gay rights. , even if the religous leaders are hostile.
In Lexington a black minister and community leader refused to be co-opted by the anti-gay forces, perhaps partly because the gay and black communities both shared a history of police harrassment. This helped ensure passage of Lexingtons antidiscrimination ordnance. In Louisville & Jefferson County there was a decade-long politcal struggle to pass antidiscrimation protection, for both the city and county. The black adermen split on the issue, but enough supported the law so that it would pass, including one, Reginald Meeks, who would later go on to be a state represantive. So no political cost to him, at least.. In the county, the black county commissioner also supported anti-discrimination protetcion.
One of the things that made this work is there was that a case was made that there was, indeed, discrimination, and there was lot of grass roots organizing. The Fairness Campaign (the Louisville movement) was doing a lot of work buidling coalitions, including with activists within the black community itself.
So I’d be a bit leery about painting with a broad brush. Especially since one of the strategies of the right is to use this as a wedge issue to divide potential political allies. It serves the rights’ purpose well to have the GLBT and black community attacking each other and opposed to each other. Some people fall for this. Others do not. In the case of Lexington & Louisville it ultimately didn’t work.
A brief history of the gay rights struggle down in the Bluegrass State (a tough row to hoe), reprinted from LEO, the Louisville version of the Dayton City Paper:
http://www.fairness.org/NewsEvents/IntheNews/TenYearsLeoCover/tabid/703/Default.aspx
Homophobia is not more prevelant in Dayton’s AA community. The 39th house district, dominated by west Dayton, voted no on issue 1, the anti-gay marriage amendment, in 2004.
@ JA – let me get this right. You want the media to report on areas where YOU drop your kid off? Should I hold your hand?
You know about it so I suggest you stop dropping off your kid there. The media has reported on The Greene. I know about it, as do you.
If you have a beef with the police I suggest you take it up with them. Life is not perfect, nor is The Greene. It is a meat market (AG) and anyone with half a brain knows this…… Again, most if not close to all bars over serve. Open up your eyes.
66 comments, and not one has addressed the disproportionately high crime rate in the Black community, especially as it relates to Dayton. If we’re going to “face race,” we need to do it honestly.
Yes, I acknowledge that there’s an economic factor in play…yet, east Dayton is not exactly rolling in money and jobs at the moment, and yet a quick glance at DDN’s homicide maps makes it obvious that the vast majority of violent crime is occuring in Dayton’s predominantly Black neighborhoods.
It’s hard to attract business when your city’s crime rate is something to the effect of three times the national average. It’s hard to feel sympathetic for a community where every other story involving a shooting or a homicide ends with “witnesses refused to cooperate with police.” Social programs, “reaching out”, et cetera, clearly only goes so far; at some point, change must come from within the affected community. And until that happens, I can’t blame those on the other side of the river, or in other communities, for not wanting to be a part of it.
For fun I am going to defend Jarvis. If males and females had zero attraction to one another, do you think that the human race would have continued long? I think that heterosexual is the norm for humans. So, having sexual tendencies outside the norm, could be considered a defect. However, I have read that most dimples are the cause of a birth defect. So, while Jarvis’ comment may be inflammatory, in a science lab was he really that wrong? I think where Jarvis went wrong is that he called it an unfortunate defect, which would imply he associates gays with lack of fortune, whereas I consider my defect of dimples quite fortunate. If I were his PR guy, I would suggest he say something like “I only mean unfortunate in the manner in which I imagine you are treated”. Good luck with that. Besides what he thinks, it remains to be seen if he would act in a manner which would be discriminating to gays. Maybe he thinks that way and maybe that makes him feel all sensitive to defective people and donate lots of time and money to their charities. Point being, his thoughts are not discriminating. For the most part I am with Gene. Dont amplify and let people live. David’s suggestion that the city reach out to small and minority business………….well why? Why should a minority be given advantage over the majority? Why should not the best competitor win? Jarvis was very correct when he stated their should be a level playing field and that is all. Hopefully his well received rhetoric is not completely lost. What David implies is not a level playing field. As far as your regionalism, it is quite simple. People dislike being taken advantage of. For example, why would Oakwood want to share their revenue with someone else in the region that had less money? Why would people willingly give away benefits to their childrens school system? Regionalism only makes sense if you do away with the underlying socialism. Efficient government is an oxymoron. Less government is the only efficient government… Read more »
If males and females had zero attraction to one another, do you think that the human race would have continued long?
Yes, that’s a brilliant canard to trot out when explaining why gay men and lesbians shouldn’t have equal rights. Why if you let teh gayz marry, pretty soon all the kidz will be turnin’ gay and then the human race will go extinct.
The term “unfortunate defect” is dehumanizing. The more people read and hear dehumanizing comments about gays, the more people believe that gay people are to some degree less human, especially when those comments go unchallenged. The more people believe that gay people are less human, the more people are willing to participate in gay bashing. I trust Mr. Vigh had fun reading about last week’s murder and decapitation of Jorge Steven Lopez, a gay teen in Puerto Rico.
DL and JL, very emotional. I simply laid out the only possible logical remnant that could be attached to that statement by Jarvis. So take a big deep breath and try reading it again.
@DL: In no way did I mention that homosexuals should have less rights. I did bring to light how someone thinks of you is not discrimination until they act in a manner which negatively impacts you. The part that you quoted is out of context and I am at the mercy of your emotions. Read it again when you are done over reacting.
@JL: As I pointed out, it is the unfortunate part that made it sound so bad. If he would have left it at “defect”, I think he could go scientific and get away with it. Did I not draw special attention to the unfortunate part? Why would I enjoy reading about a murder? Dehumanizing, is that a grandiose word for insulting? Your reaction seems way over the top.
In relation to the article, you have a chance to turn this around: Do you consider homosexuals a minority? Do you feel they should garner special treatment from government agencies and communities as a whole because of this minority status?
This is not emotional. It is fact. Defect means lacking something necessary for completeness, so I ‘m not completely human. Defect does not mean “outside the norm”. Defect doesn’t qualify for the population, normal or abnormal. Someone sincerely believes gay people are defective. He’s not simply tossing off an insult to make a particular person angry or hurt. And he isn’t keeping this belief to himself, he is actively preaching it on a blog and possibly elsewhere. Such language gives comfort to those committing all sorts of hateful acts against gay people. Don’t you think that his city manager might now stop to think about it before hiring an openly gay person at the city, an “unfortunate defect”, who might come into contact with the councilor? Maybe a Beavercreek policeman or other employee who hates gay people will be more emboldened to act on that hatred knowing that they may now have a friend on council.
How can Mr. Vigh think that defending this is “fun”?
How come you did not answer the questions that are related to the article?
Why do I think it is fun: Because it is an extremely difficult position to defend. It requires articulation, patience and thought to correctly convey any type of defense. Furthermore, without some form of logical opposition, you never really get to elaborate on the reason why you find it so disheartening and you look emotional. Such as opposition gets response of “You must enjoy reading about the death of others” (this is why I my emotions thought you were being emotional). So, it is a difficult task for my brain and I find those fun.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/defect
The comment was made on a gene. Not on gay people. Where does he advocate anything negative against the gay community. If you are born gay, if the choice was never yours to make, if you have pre-disposed genetic fondness for the same sex, someone calling that gene a defect does not fall into the hate category in my opinion.
I disagree with your position that the city manager will now change his hiring methods. While I see his comment as insensitive, I do not see it as discriminating. When read in context, I think it was extremely over reacted too.
I am interested in your answers to the questions you skipped.
Who cares? Brian has a defect, and it is unfortunate, that he believes what he believes. It is one man’s opinion. He lives in Beavercreek, so vote him out if you live there.
We have become too sensitive to this. He did not beat anyone up or not rent them an apartment, etc… he made a stupid statement. Stupid people do this from time to time.
Happy Thanksgiving, thanks for the “fumble” Brian………..
@ Joe Lacey…the only comfort I have at this point in the conversation is that I know my call to action & others request to Greene County voters & friends has at least put Mr.Jarvis & his comments on the radar…the hits on his campaign website have jumped from #59 on Monday to #514 today
Happy Thanksgiving JL & DL
The irony of it all is that Mr. Jarvis was accused of “foam[ing] at the mouth with hate & ignorance”, yet the reaction to his opinion has been wildly, disproportionately hostile. Really – boycotting all the businesses in a city because you don’t like one remark by an elected official?
Keeping in mind that any traditional understanding of the teachings of the major monotheistic religions absolutely forbid homosexual activity, do the posters here believe that the world at large should give up their faith to accomodate the minority, or should the religious just “keep it in the closet”? Who are you to say that one worldview or lifestyle should be accepted and celebrated but not another?
Mr. Jarvis said that the building blocks that make us human are defective in gay people. I never said that he hates anyone but his words do give comfort to those who do hate gay people. Defending those words as accurate gives comfort to the same.
Earlier in this thread, Mr. Staiger stated that religious opposition to homosexuality is “venomous and intolerant”. Would a religious person have a right to be offended by his choice of words? Could they give comfort to those who hate religion? Could it, however indirectly, contribute to church burnings? I’m guessing he’s the same Gary Staiger that owns Omega Music… would it be sensible to boycott his business? If he were an elected official, would it be an appropriate reaction to his anti-religious bigotry to boycott all business in his city?
Actually Joe, you over reacted from your very first post. Taking Jarvis’ words out of context. You and Jennifer elevated the meaning of those words considerably.
So, do you feel gays are a minority and should receive special consideration? Still waiting.
Pseudo, I like your posts btw.
Liberals generally overreact. And often they get violent with their words. I have been threatened by two people on this blog.
Pseudo is on the money, and notice how DE avoided his questions. DE avoids my questions as well. I still have yet to get an explanation on why he cares if black people live in Oakwood.
Liberals often pound their fist but rarely ever give clear explanations on their opinions. They are based on emotion. We all know this.
I stated Brian is a defected person. I would not vote for him if I lived in Beavercreek. That is all that needs to be done.
Putting Mr. Jarvis’ statement in the context of his discussion doesn’t make it any less dehumanizing. Mr. Jarvis’ discussion is that gay people don’t deserve the same protections afforded to other minorities because their minority status is due to an “unfortunate defect” in their genetic makeup. He also compares being gay to being a crack addict. In context such statements give comfort to bigots.
“Venomous and intolerant” are very human reactions so I don’t see anything comparably dehumanizing in Mr. Staiger’s statement. Hate crimes against gay people happen regularly in this country. Church burnings by liberals upset by religious homophobia is not a problem I’m aware of.
Joe, I think you are over reacting and out of context… … still. Also, where does Jarvis strip your rights? I dont see where you engaged him enough to make that determination before you and JA began threatening his job.
However, you did indicate that you believe homosexuals are a minority. Does this mean you should be afforded special treatment by the government and other communities because of this status? Still waiting. Should you get business perks from WPAFB for being gay?
@psuedo: Not ALL religious opposition is Venomous and Intolerant , BUT a significant amount of mainstream church doctrine most definitely falls into those categories. My original comment was based on first hand reactions I have heard from people I know who are of religious persuasion. Further, you don’t know me well enough to be characterizing me as a “anti-religious bigot”. If someone chooses to believe in God and religion that is their right, just as Pagans, Witches and astrologists have a right to their beliefs. Keep in mind the definitions of those two words when reviewing information on the links I have provided on this question. 1 : full of venom: as a : poisonous, envenomed b : noxious, pernicious 2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters Roman Catholicism & Homosexuality http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Baptist denomination in the United States, has issued several resolutions in which it rejects homosexuality as a lifestyle and refers to it as a “manifestation of a depraved nature”, “a perversion of divine standards and as a violation of nature and natural affections” and “an abomination in the eyes of God.”[5] It opposes same-sex marriages and equivalent unions.[6] The Convention has urged churches not to show any approval of homosexuality.[7] The Convention however also holds that “while the Bible condemns such practice as sin, it also teaches forgiveness and transformation, upon repentance, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”[8] It also forbids gays and lesbians to become members, and often members who come out are excommunicated. excerpted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Baptist_churches Split among American Baptists over homosexuality is final http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23275 Mormons and Homosexuality “Homosexuality Is Sin: Next to the crime of murder comes the sin of sexual impurity.” Excerpt from a 2002 Mormon pamphlet. bullet “We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly…. We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence.” Ernest Wilkinson, president of… Read more »
He also compares being gay to being a crack addict. In context such statements give comfort to bigots.
Exactley.
…and yet a quick glance at DDN’s homicide maps makes it obvious that the vast majority of violent crime is occuring in Dayton’s predominantly Black neighborhoods.
I think this is a phenomenon of recent history. Looking at the crime rates during the early 1930s, the early years of the Depression, there were a lot of felonies on the West Side, but the numbers were balanced by concentrations on the near east side (the Oregon and old Haymarket areas). So felony crime was in both black and poorer white neighborhoods at fairly equal rates (though the highest concetration was in what is todays Wright-Dunbar area). Similar pattern for juvenile deliquency. Maps documenting this can be found here:
http://daytonology.blogspot.com/2009/01/crime-poverty-in-early-depression.html
The rise in crime within the black community really began during the later 1960s, and there is a lot of debate on why this happened within criminology circles. Needless to say this is still a serious social problem.
Yes, pile on your misinterpretation. Does anyone read? People have a genetic pre-disposition to addiction, and also to same sex attraction, and to dimples. Or is it your contention that people are not born gay, that it is fully by choice. In which case you then make Jarvis’ argument for him.
To take some flair from David Lauri: Oh no the teh bigots are comfortable, run cause the pitchforks are coming out and their is going to be lynchings tonight, run, run ahhhhhh!.
Mr. Jarvis gives an example of the kinds of people that it is acceptable for his community to not allow to live in that community. He then includes gay people in that group that his community can prohibit from living there because their actions stem from genetic defects. That’s exactly the context and it is dehumanizing to gay people.
When I say that gay people are a minority, I’m saying that they make up less than 50% of the population. Gay people should have the same civil protections that other minorities have that allow them to live in Beavercreek if they choose to even if Beavercreek tries to keep them out (as Mr. Jarvis says is the community’s right). That’s equal treatment not special treatment.
The comparison of the genetic pre-disposition of gay people to that of crack addicts is only another attempt to demonize gay people. Same sex attraction is not at the root of the numerous social ills that crack addiction is.
This was Jarvis’ statement
Gay” is like having a propensity similar to an addicit’s to be hooked on crack, alcohol, etc. The genes are already built-in even before the drugs are used (or as you indicated, even before you acted on the feeling).
He was deliberately using negative examples put lesbians and gays at the same level of alcholics and crack addicts, and, by implication, all the social problems addiction leads to. This was negative spin on his part, he was not saying or implying that this genetic variation is something innocuous like being left-handed or having dimples. And this is a fairly common discourse from anti-gay movement, quite familiar to anyone who’s been on-line long enough discussing this issue.
Oops….Looks like Joe Lacey and I cross-posted.
Further, you don’t know me well enough to be characterizing me as a “anti-religious bigot”.
No worse than anyone else knew Mr. Jarvis before piling on him for one quote.
I’m glad you picked out the Catholics and the Southern Baptists – the two largest Christian groups in the US. It is true that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is “gravely disordered” and acting on it is a mortal sin, and your quote regarding Baptists is likewise accurate. In light of this, do you (I ask Mr. Staiger, Mr. Lacey, and Ms. Alexander, especially) believe that a person who follows the precepts of the Catholic or Baptist churches can be qualified to hold office- and if not, how can you claim to be anything built guilty of anti-Christian bias and bigotry?
Joe, should I infer by your silence that you stand by your libelous insult of Mr. Vigh?
@ Jeff: interesting find, those maps. Just out of curiousity, do you know what the racial composition of the city was, east versus west, at that time? Also, I’m not certain than forty years constitutes “recent history.”
Again, I’m not denying that socioeconomic factors are to some degree at play here. And yet, that doesn’t excuse the behavior, nor solve it. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be a viable solution other than the Black community itself disapproving of the drug/gang subculture where most of this violence originates, and working with rather than against the police.
Very simple,
applied to your question means yes, Catholics and Baptist are qualified, so long as they do not operate as if this were a religious Taliban style government.
I guess I don’t really cut it as an antagonist- Mr. Jarvis has me beat by a long shot.
I really wish you could have your fight on his site-
What was meant to be a post about the misguided focus of the local views of best practices in urban repositioning- have all turned into a “gay” thing. Happy Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving to all…I’m done with this discussion.
@ Joe: He actually gave an example of a Red SUV, but the same principle applies. I actually think he sounds terrible here, but he basically gave empowerment to a community to deprive the rights and choices of the individual without justification. Including, but not limited to gay people. I think most over reacted to the gay aspect of the commentary and the only conclusion they have arrived at is that Brian probably does not have a gay best friend. The fact that his statement jeopardizes freedom should be a little more concerning, but flying the gay pride flag took precedence.
Regarding the context, I still think it is not in sync. Reference Gene’s post on identifying race .vs identifying sexual preference.
@ Jeff: Yes, Brian’s glass would appear to be half empty with drug addicts, while mine is half full with dimples.
I am done too, it came full circle to the freedom part.
Happy TG to all.
Ok, then DE, why don’t you answer my question that do pertain to this topic, questions regarding “handful of black people in Oakwood.” Why do you care, why does it matter, why don’t they move there, etc. You are the one refusing to answer my questions. Others have proposed questions and comments regarding this topic but you are too busy drinking coffee in front of cameras :)
Also, why is our President, the liar that most of you folks voted for, taxing us for a war he told us we were done with if elected? Liar liar pants on fire. Your President! Barry, you told us we would pull out. All men say they will pull out – and all men lie :)
@Gene- I’ll reply again on “Oakwood”- “Why was Dayton forced to integrate under court order- and no suburban communities were?” Why was it so important for Dayton to integrate- and no one else? Why did the courts get involved? If people want to live in a White City (the title of the article this post started with) or a Black City- why not? I’m actually agreeing with you- in some ways….
I believe diversity is the key to innovation and growth- but apparently, I’m in a minority, esp. here- where the only thing that matters is sexual orientation and your biases towards it.
If there has ever been a thread where I wanted to stop the comments by closing them- this has been it.
Cheers to all.
Dayton should have never had forced integration. It does not make sense, it never did. You want a walk to work tax credit, meaning people would live somewhat close to where they work. Same should go with schools. You should attend the school in your neighborhood. Oakwood allows all sorts of people to live and go to school in Oakwood. If blacks want that school system then I suggest they move to Oakwood. I think we should keep it simple. Forcing anything, for the most part, is just a bad idea.
Comparing Dayton to these other cities is pointless. We need jobs, better neighborhoods, better schools. Government get in the way of this – allow people to do what they do and stop over taxing and giving free hand outs. Again, making it complicated makes it most unfair. Keep this thread alive! Go Gays!
I really wish you could have your fight on his site
LOL, I don’t believe that. I think you enjoy the traffic debates bring to your site. Of course you could always go to moderated comments and refuse to post comments that aren’t pertinent to the topic at hand.