Kettering police Chief Chip Protsman tried to justify a murder by suggesting that Officer Jonathon McCoy was ok in spending 69 seconds telling a passenger in a car what to do at gunpoint.
It was Philando Castile all over, without the facebook live video from the driver of the car.
Kettering police officer Jonathon McCoy gave nearly 30 commands to the occupants of a gray Ford van last Sunday once he saw the front-seat passenger had a gun in his right front pocket.
What started as a traffic stop of the woman driver for not signaling while changing lanes and malfunctioning brake lights escalated into an officer firing nine shots at Jason Hoops.
Source: Officer warned suspect before fatal shooting
I watched the video, and wonder where the “to serve and protect” part comes in.
Officer McCoy was on a traffic stop. He approached the car on the passenger side and started asking for license and registration. He also started asking who everyone in the vehicle is- on a traffic stop. Last I checked, police don’t have the right to start asking people why they are in a neighborhood, or what they are doing.
(added 3 Sept) Ohio is a stop and identify state, however, even in this case, the cop was beyond his rights:
“Stop and identify” statutes are statutory laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect of having committed a crime. If there is no reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed, an individual is not required to provide identification, even in “Stop and ID” states. (end addition)
We have a fourth amendment that protects us from this kind of harassment- well, maybe not in Kettering. If you need a refresher:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Then when McCoy saw the butt of a gun sticking out of the passengers pocket he panicked and pulled his gun, pointed it at the passengers head and said “You reach for that gun, I will blow your brains out, do you (expletive) understand me?”
My question is if it is legal to carry a concealed weapon in Ohio, what gives an officer the right to pull a weapon out, point it at someones head and threaten to blow their brains out?
Police apologists will say, he was an ex-felon and didn’t have a right to have a weapon. How did Officer McCoy know Jason Hoops was a felon?
They will say that Jason didn’t comply with the orders. I can tell you from experience that when guns are pointed at you, people are screaming at you, not everyone reacts rationally or normally.
They will say they had “a signed statement from someone who said Hoops said was not going to go back to prison and “was willing to take out any cop that he had to.”” Yet, McCoy couldn’t have known that either.
And of course, the kicker, “Protsman said that what called “pipe bomb” making materials found at Hoops’ residence were still being investigated.”
So, according to Chief Protsman, “What I’ve seen in this video, I’m pretty confident in saying that this officer did a very good job on this stop,”
Excuse me? A man is dead, without judge, jury or anything but the judgement of one cop who over-reacted. If this is a “good job” he needs to find a new job.
“Stand your ground” is not for cops.
The moment Officer McCoy saw the gun, he should have said, to the driver, “can you please shut the car off, and put the keys on the roof for me” as he backed away from the vehicle, “I’m going to check something and I’ll be right back.” Going back to his cruiser, he should have asked for assistance. At no point, should he have felt threatened by a gun in the vehicle, or in the pocket of a passenger. At no time, should he have pulled his weapon and pointed it at someone, it was a traffic stop. Mr. Hoops didn’t have a warrant, wasn’t suspected of committing a violent crime, he was a passenger in the car of a bad driver.
How big a threat was Hoops? Watch the woman walk into her house from the car with her dog. Did she seem scared? The driver pleads to Officer McCoy “please don’t do that” after McCoy says he’ll blow Hoops brains out. She wants to get out of the car- before he goes full Sgt. York on Hoops. Can you blame her? Obviously she understands she’s in danger with a rabid cop- and that bullets go through bodies.
Instead, because Officer McCoy was poorly trained, scared and over-reacted, we have a dead citizen. Even if Hoops had the gun in his hands, if he hadn’t pointed it at anyone, he wasn’t a threat when the officer came to the car. Hell, McCoy has to ask the rear seat passenger after unloading his weapon on Hoops- if the gun was real. So, toy guns in your pocket is a threat too? Did anyone study the Tamir Rice shooting? Another case where the cops could have stayed out of harms way and deescalated the situation.
““We know there was a physical confrontation where the officer reached in and grabbed hold of Mr. Hoops’ right arm, trying to stop him from reaching down towards the gun,” Protsman said. “This continues for a little bit.” Did Protsman, or McCoy learn anything from the Samuel Dubose murder in Cincinnati- that officers don’t reach into vehicles? Experts testified that this is a dangerous move by an officer. Why didn’t McCoy back away, and seek cover?
Because McCoy shouldn’t be a police officer.
Chief Protsman shouldn’t be defending McCoy’s actions. And, the investigation of officer shootings should no longer be trusted to local authorities. It’s time for a federal investigation team, similar to what happens when a plane crashes. Bring professional, unbiased, detectives to discern the facts from the fiction. This is the proposal being made by the parents of man killed by a cop in Kenosha Wisconsin.
When a plane crashes, experts pick through the wreckage to determine the cause and make recommendations to prevent the next accident. The process is so effective that for the last several years, the death rate from crashes of American commercial planes has been zero. But no comparable system exists in policing — and that may help explain why you are far more likely to die at the hands of a cop than to perish in an plane crash. Police officers in the United States now kill about 1,000 people and wound more than 50,000 every year.
Of course, no independent team arrived to perform a forensic analysis of the younger Mr. Bell’s death. Instead, the Kenosha police department spent two days investigating its own officers before ruling that the shooting was justified.
Source: Why Are Police Officers More Dangerous Than Airplanes? – The New York Times
Even the way the Dayton Daily news frames this story, it’s as if the cop had a right to pull his weapon on a traffic stop. Have we forgotten the shooting of Walter Scott in North Charleston N.C. where Officer Michael Slager might have gotten away with murder if not for a passerby video taping him shoot Scott in the back.
If you don’t think this pattern is getting out of hand, you aren’t paying attention.
If McCoy is the kind of cop Kettering and Protsman want to defend, I retract all my statements about Kettering being the best run community in the region.
If this is “to serve and protect” we’re safer without police.
Somebod’s going to say it, so I’ll get us started. Mary Beall.
You are out of your mind to think this scumbag was Assassinated. This is another example of career criminal who should not have had a gun but as all typical scum convicts, he thought he needed a gun to continue his life of crime. Good riddance and shame he didn’t clean the van out while he had a chance. You are a typical liberal apologist for the criminal but yet you call the police because your neighbors are too loud. Your comments are just plain shameful and out of touch. But then again so are majority of democrats when it comes to law and order.
You are a total effing moron if you think he was assassinated. He was a convicted felon who tried to pull a gun on an officer. Was the officer supposed to let the shitbag shoot him first? For nearly 2 minutes, the officer told him not to reach for the gun. If you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. This article is a rag at best. You should be ashamed to even publish such garbage.
Esrati is a simpleton. A useless liberal jackass. Period.
You are full of shit. Somebody panics when a gun is pointed at them do they? Well if somebody, a cop or not, is screaming at me to put my hands and the dash and don’t go for the gun in my pocket, guess what going to do? You dipshit…
I’m glad the police officers who are commenting are actually signing their names. I’ve updated the post with the “Stop and Identify” info.
I’m wondering if the vitriol headed my way is because I call for an unbiased outsider to investigate police shootings- instead of letting the locals whitewash their impending lawsuits?
Or is it because cops can’t possibly make mistakes and fail to try to deescalate confrontations- as opposed to threatening and then shooting?
I’ve been threatened for years, so the words of cops threatening me here and on Facebook don’t really phase me.
What scares me most- is that good cops will be at greater risk thanks to the McCoy’s shooting the proverbial Hatfields- because, well- they have a gun and a badge.
As to Mary Beall- there is difference where she came up to a man brandishing a weapon- after already firing it- compared to a gun in a pocket during a traffic stop. Beall tried to deescalate a situation- but, handled it poorly.
She is an outlier in the pool of police shootings- not the norm.
David, its not the vitriol pointed at you, it is common sense. I had to chuckle when you compared this to Castille shooting. Big differences and I didn’t agree with that shooting even though the courts did. This derelict deserved to get blasted and by all accounts, thats what he was pushing for. Listen to what the nice policeman says and he would have walked away, in handcuffs and back to the big house where he belonged. But instead and like most career criminals, he chose to be a pussy and died, suicide by cop. No reason to inflame this shooting because there’s nothing there. I see the DDN is trying its best to start a fire. Cops make a lot of mistakes every day and with cameras, they are held accountable. Nobody is immune to mistake including Dayton’s chief which in my mind was more of a cover up than this shooting in Kettering. All I am trying to say is not to let your bias pre-judge your opinion like it did on the Kettering shooting. I have no idea where the Mary Beall comment came from or why it was even brought up (RIP). Just another idiot trying to start shit they know nothing about. I still owe you coffee and hope you meet with me. Nothing personal, we just have different political views but aligned on some.
Your article clearly proved you have less than zero of a clue. I’ve always thought you were an idiot, now you’ve proved it. The mere fact that you admit he gave 30 commands to the dead guy is proof the cop was trying as hard ass possible not to have to shoot the guy. That you think you’re a 4th amendment expert is sad. The cop can ask whatever he wants, names, baby daddy name, where you live? Where you stay, were you born here, were you born elsewhere. You are too stupid to explain the rest to, but for anyone else reading and believing your bullshit, understand this guy speaks out of his ass
Just a question on your comment of the situation. I am not going to go into the right or wrong at the time as I do not live there and do not know enough of all the story, however you ,Mr. Esrati, said ” before he goes full Sgt. York on on Hoops” . I hope that is just some kind of odd turn of phrase and that you are referring to a problem with Sgt. Yorks service and the hard job he did in WWI.
I am always sorry to see some one die like Mr. Hoops did as it is a no win situation for all…one man dead, the officer and family / friends have to live with that. I have had my share of seeing “bad” people and I know at times there comes a point when action must be taken, it is just sad that such happens.
Let me make things perfectly clear, this officer shot five times, point blank, then 4 more at a distance of 2 yards.
That’s 9 rounds. No return fire. Thankfully- the driver didn’t listen to him – and got out- possibly saving her own life.
Had there been anyone else in the car with a weapon, McCoy would have been totally exposed- and be in a reload situation.
He should have called for backup the moment he saw the gun.
He shouldn’t have reached into the car.
He shouldn’t have focused on the one person with the gun- there were possible other threats.
I wouldn’t want this jackass on my team, I’m sorry if you cop apologists think he’s managing this well.
There are times that moving yourself to a safer position is the right move- and this was one of them.
And, no one deserves to get blasted- until they are a danger to others.
Having a gun on you isn’t the same as pointing it at someone.
Remember who pointed the gun first?
Let me correct one word, ….”and that you are not referring to a problem”… I am having a little trouble with my keyboard, sorry
@michael- Sgt. York charged a machine gun nest, emptying his weapon, then drawing another- hard charging without thought of risk to himself.
That’s sort of what happens here- when you stop thinking logically and empty your clip on a guy confined in a car- before he shoots at you….
No disrespect to Sgt. Alvin York at all.
David,
The problem with people like you is you sit here behind the computer and judge others, drum up fear with false narratives and grossly overstated titles. You and your kind never have solutions based on logic.
Please give me a step by step process On how you would have handled it. Keep in my be you have to gurentee that you are the one alive at the end!
You are a dumb [email protected] if oh think this guy was assasinated. At least we can all be thankful he wasn’t black or we would get wall to wall coverage of how racist cops shoot black men for no reason. Since this guy was white it is a non issue. The media and journalist like yourself are disgusting people.
All the training in the world will not change police attitudes.
Community policing in this situation would not have been worthwhile seeing that the victims were not from the area.
Bottom line is, police will only change their ways when they themselves start losing things.
This contentious atmosphere is caused by the Trump/GOP/Republican party.
They along with the Fraternal Order of Police normalizes this type of behavior by lobbying for militarization of our police departments and lobbying against our civil rights.
I support our law enforcement but I have zero tolerance for behavior that is embolden upon our police departments causing disconnect between citizens and law enforcement.
I believe a better outcome would have transpired had the officer drove alongside them and verbally said,”be sure to signal on lane changes and check your brake lights.”
Then both the officer and the occupants of the van could have continued on their merry way.
Too much like right and or common sense. That man’s life was taken over a simple infraction that had nothing to do with a crime. Wow!
#YourVoteMattersItReallyDoes
Mr. Hoops was armed with a concealed weapon, apparently non-compliant with 30 or so verbal instructions, and apparently reached for his gun. That’s a pretty good way to get shot.
Was Officer McCoy’s behavior perfect? Nope. He asked questions that I would have found to be intrusive, and simply none of his business.
McCoy made a perfectly legal traffic stop, encountered an armed and uncooperative person who reached for a gun, so he shot him.
It’s sad Hoops was shot, but I think Officer McCoy behaved reasonably, even if he did not behave perfectly.
How is this OK if the police officer has no right to ask the passenger of a vehicle to identify himself? He started harassing him… until he lost his shit and murdered him. He wasn’t even sure if the gun was real!! I hope this guy is fired and charged immediately.
Although I do support law enforcement when they are engaged in serving and protecting the public, I also do not understand why the passenger was questioned during a traffic stop. What I saw in the video was an incident that escalated into a highly charged situation fed by the actions and words of the officer. What could the officer have done to effect a different outcome? Law enforcement professionals need to be supported through policy changes and more education and training.
There are a number of things I would like to point out. Yes Jason made a mistake when he was younger and did his time for that. He was not wanted and committed no crimes since he was released from prison. Second is about the “pipe bomb” the material was in the upstairs apartment that Jason did not have access to and the people that live there was not arrested and are coming and going as usual. So no pipe bomb making material. And 3rd if Jason wanted to take out the cop as they keep saying he had plenty of time to pull the gun and chamber a round, which he did not do. There was no round in the chamber and he never went for his gun. The officer couldn’t have known that the gun did not even shoot. It was broken but I bet the police department will not release that information. Yes Jason made a poor decision to carry a gun working or not, but he didn’t deserve to loose his life for that.
You’re completely wrong on this one David
I challenge you to take a couple or all three of these.
A. DPD’s scenario-based training, offered on Saturday mornings, about one a month. I went through the scenarios as part of the next item. In one of the scenarios, I would have been blown away by the person on the other end. A real eye opener!!. It is on a Saturday in the morning.
B. DPD offers a course Citizens Police Academy. A real eye opener to various facets of police work.
C, Finally, there is the MCSO Citizen Academy. Another real eye opener.
During each one of these, there are opportunities for ‘ride alongs’.
Finally, I was stopped a few years back, by OSP on I75. The officer came to the passenger window!
> Finally, I was stopped a few years back, by OSP on I75. The officer came to the passenger window!
They do that so they don’t get hit by passing traffic. It’s very “normal”.
My personal take on this shooting is that we can’t know for sure. Did the passenger have a hand on the gun, or is this another case of a cop shooting first and explaining it later?
If Kettering would spring for body cams, it might be more cut and dried.
Meanwhile, can anyone honestly deny that police too often shoot before they look? New York police killed Amadou Diallo as he tried to produce his i.d.–waiting one second to look closely and see that it’s a wallet, not a gun, would have spared his life. And please spare me the “cops can’t wait”–if they have the drop on a suspect, they can shoot first 100% of the time.
Is the shooting in this story justified? I say we need to train police in a different way: shoot only if you see a gun being held like a weapon (meaning fingers near the trigger) or if it’s needed to fight off an attacker.
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/09/05/news-organization-says-photographer-shot-sheriffs-deputy/632083001/
I guess the photographer in New Carlisle that was shot last night for setting up a tripod and camera should have just complied and he must of had it coming to him.
They were out looking for trouble period, that was motive, either drugs, robbery or something of that nature, he was refusing to offer his identification or name to the officer, if he was a ccw holder at that time he should have told the officer his name and he has a weapon , violation of 2923.16 ORC.. either way this circus spins the wheel it will always run flat on bent rims.
The Washington Post still maintains its “Fatal Force” database—started in 2015–of people shot and killed by police in the United States. In 2017 police have shot and killed 663 people so far:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
But Americans really don’t care about gun violence. We’re inured to it. Another school shooting? Our prayers are with the victims. Another law enforcement officer killed in the line of duty? Our prayers are with him or her. Another person shot by a cop? Maybe “Our prayers are with the victim” but more likely, “Good riddance to the scum.”
I’d think that people working in law enforcement would be desperate for some way to reduce gun violence. I know law enforcement is a tough and dangerous job. I know the vast majority of people in law enforcement are good people. But who wants to work in an environment where you’re so scared that you’d feel it necessary to fire off 9 rounds at a traffic stop? One bullet wouldn’t have been enough?
Of course it’s un-American to ask such questions. There’s nothing to be done about gun violence in America because our civil bible—the Constitution—has enshrined the right to bear arms as sacrosanct above anything else. At least the first amendment guarantees our right to pray about this issue.
“Even if Hoops had the gun in his hands, if he hadn’t pointed it at anyone, he wasn’t a threat when the officer came to the car.” Are you kidding me?!? Even with a conceal and carry permit, you should not only let the officer know immediately that you have a weapon but you should keep your hands visible at all times so that the police officer does not feel threatened because they have no idea what you might do with it. 95% of people won’t do anything but why should they have to take the chance. They have families and loved ones at home too.
The officer performed his duties in a lawful manor. A criminal was killed because he committed more than one crime; more than one felony. Even this person was not a previously convicted individual, he still committed criminal acts that resulted his death. Let’s just say that he legally had a CCW, and was legally carrying the handgun. Under ORC 2923.16 ( the Ohio law that covers concealed weapons) the individual, by law, must inform any law enforcement officer, without being asked, that they have a CCW, and that they are armed. Failure to do so is a first degree misdemeanor. Let’s say that if this individual had a CCW, was armed, and had informed the police officer of this, and then proceeded to reach for the handgun, against the orders of the police officer, he would be committing a felony; not to mention that the officer should already have drawn his weapon to defend himself, or others, should the individual attempt to use the handgun in a deadly or dangerous manor…this is just common sense, but SOP (standard operating procedure) for any and all law enforcement agencies. Now please explain how this is murder in any form or fashion. What if that was your daughter who was driving the van, that individual had used the gun to kidnap/car jack her. Would you not be glad that the police officer followed the law and did his job? If he had done what you said, go back to his car there would be a good chance that the driver, and passenger would be dead, if the situation was a kidnapping or car jacking. If you don’t like the laws of this country then you are free to leave. Please do not try to pervert the Bill of Rights to justify the unlawful acts of others, or to write things that are not true to incite civil unrest. The 4th Amendment does not protect anyone from a lawful search, and this was a case of the weapon being in plain sight. At that point the individual, if he had a CCW, could have… Read more »
@Scott
There is a problem with this if you have a CCW you must inform the officer – and if you don’t you are committing a crime being used in this case.
It’s called the Fifth amendment- the right against self incrimination.
So- saying- “He didn’t inform the cop” was a crime- and the cop had the right to shoot him- doesn’t fly.
And, since the cop has no body cam, we’re dealing with hearsay on if the gun was out- etc.
Even when out- because Ohio is an open carry state- that doesn’t give the cop a right to point a gun at anyone’s head and to threaten to blow your brains out.
Your car-jacking scenario is great fiction. When’s the book coming out?
Tamir Rice had a gun too- and wasn’t pointing it the cop- when shot.
Police have to take an extra measure of effort to determine the threat- a gun butt in a pocket isn’t the same as having the weapon pointed at him.
We can go around and around- but- there was a path to deescalation- including- if it was a carjacking- of getting the other passengers out of the car…. safely.
David – you are mistaken about a couple of things in your assessment of this case. First, the “victim” was carrying illegally – concealed or open. Yes, Ohio is an open carry state, BUT, the only way you can legally carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle is if you have a CCW. It doesn’t matter if the weapon is concealed or open, you MUST have a CCW to be in possession of a loaded handgun in a vehicle. And loaded long guns are never permitted. As far as the 5th Amendment is concerned, it is irrelevant in this case. There is no self incrimination when you comply with the cop’s lawful order. The man refused to comply and is now dead as a result of it. You are correct that the Tamir Rice shooting was a tragedy. Again, that is irrelevant in this case as the circumstances are completely different. Tamir was never given a chance. Hoops was given plenty of opportunity to comply and refused. And, now he’s dead. Yes, it’s sad, but he was given a chance to save himself. Your sarcastic comments directed at Scott’s potential car jacking scenario were uncalled for. It’s entirely reasonable to consider that a young female driver that has an armed male passenger sitting next to her could be the victim of a crime in progress. What would have happened if the officer did what you suggested and walked away from the car to call from backup and then Hoops shot someone in the car or ordered her to haul ass out of there? Then you’d be screaming that the cops in Kettering are doing a piss-poor job when they can’t even recognize a car jacking in progress. Did the officer do everything right? Maybe, maybe not. I might question the wisdom of shooting at a target when there’s an innocent person basically on the other side of the target. Stressful situations are not conducive to good aim, so I’m glad that the driver wasn’t injured by a stray bullet. You’re all wrong with this one, David. Wrong about your understanding… Read more »
Live like a thug die like a thug. He can thank his democrat training for teaching him how to die like that.
And this is why you’ll never hold public office and the rest of civilized, educated society is thankful for that.
You are a complete fucking moron! I am a die hard constitutionalist, flex my rights on the regular, record the police any chance I get and I refuse to comply with illegal orders, always! That said, this officer warned this fucking retard 30 times! 30! I counted! There was absolutely no doubt that his ass was going to get shot if he fucking moved! That cop can ask whom ever he likes for an ID! Anyone in the car except for the driver can refuse and invoke their rights. What you can’t do is refuse to fucking comply while you have a gun in your pocket and attempt to pull it even though a gun is pointed at your head while being warned many numerous times not to fucking do it!! Now he’s dead and frankly the world is probably better off!! I don’t know who should get the #darwinaward, him or you ?