From a consultant: DPS doesn’t need no stinkin outside consultant

Today, the Dayton Daily put their stamp of approval on the Dayton Public Schools’ funeral. We must not dare risk the precious human services levy for the whole county over the bastard children of the Dayton Public Schools. No, we must put those kids on the back burner, while some lame consultant does a “performance audit” before we start fixing what is wrong with the Dayton Public Schools and why they can’t pass a levy.

To the editorial board: move your lame asses into Dayton and enroll your children in the Dayton Public Schools- and then make that decision. Better yet, make your entire staff move to Dayton with a residency rule. Quite frankly, you’ve totally lost touch with reality. I’m going to try to dissect their editorial position piece-by-piece as follows:

Our view: Dayton schools’ big problems need big thinkers
The Dayton school board’s decision not to come back with another levy request this year was a painful call. But it was the only option in the wake of the overwhelming defeat in May.

There is never only one option. The overwhelming defeat can be analyzed- and a new plan of attack could be established. All good salesmen know there are different ways to approach different customers- and a one size fits all approach is a bad idea. It’s obvious that the purchase of the palace on Ludlow didn’t sit well with the public- how about going back after Reynolds for a rebate- since they obviously were looking sweet for a takeover after dumping their antiquated HQ and Washington Street relics on DPS for a small fortune. Maybe put the HQ up for sale, and move to either Roosevelt or Patterson Career Center? Or cutting staff- or distributing admin people at each school- putting the administrators back in the schools. The bloat downtown is questioned by many citizens I’ve spoken to. Granted running all these government programs requires more bureaucratic overhead- but there has to be a different way to spin it.

Because of how levies work, now the earliest the district can get any new money from local taxpayers is January 2009. That means that there will be two full school years of no relief from the $30 million in cuts that the district is making. That number represents 16 percent of this year’s $182 million budget — it’s a major hit.

When a business needs capital, it focuses on the fastest route to get it. Time doesn’t wait for a competitive business- and like it or not- DPS is in a fight for survival against the charters- and the suburban districts.

Besides the size of the defeat, another thing the board had to consider is that a Montgomery County human services levy will be on the ballot this fall. It’s hard to picture strapped Dayton voters approving two levies. And if people were going to choose one, the human services levy would win. It would cost less, and voters feel better about local human service agencies than they do about the schools.

Lots of civic energy is being spent on drumming up support for the human services levy. The contrast between the muscle that’s going into that campaign and the support that the schools got is stark. Their cheerleaders would barely fill a school bus.

Because Montgomery County’s human services agencies have a good reputation, business and political leaders never have had to be begged to support that levy. A cadre of executives and university leaders have vetted the county commission’s request for more human services money, and now that group is fixated on telling every homeowner what the levy does for them.

Passing levies is never easy, but passing a human services tax hike is nothing like selling a Dayton school levy.

Here is the real reason for the delay. And the sad fact that the DDN doesn’t think our kids’ education is critical to keeping them from needing human services later. We should be ashamed that Ohio currently has more people incarcerated than in in college. As to the “business and political leaders”- I’m really wondering who those people are? I haven’t seen any real leadership or vision out of anyone of late. I have seen excuses and self-serving initiatives.

If no one would disagree with that, how is it that the community has its best and brightest people focused on the easier job? That’s the case even though a troubled school system is a drag on the wider community and the myriad efforts going on to make this a better place to work and live.

Again- name the “best and brightest”- maybe we need to send them back to school- this problem can be solved.

Tough questions need to be asked

Figuring out how to improve Dayton’s schools is not for sissies. It requires asking:

  • What can we do to compensate for the fact that Dayton has to educate the poorest children, and the largest concentration of needy children, in the region?
  • How can we reward teachers who are succeeding in spite of daunting odds and in spite of labor contracts that basically only recognize longevity?
  • What can be done to improve the relationship between Dayton’s traditional public schools and the underfunded charter schools? Or are we going to pay for parallel school systems until one or the other simply collapses?
  • If running and overseeing Dayton’s schools is the hardest work in the community, what are we going to do to keep good people in those jobs?

Quite simply- we have to innovate and learn to teach differently. Dayton Public Schools has been doing that- DECA, Stivers are huge success stories. The Dunbar Basketball program, Horace Mann elementary. We have winners in the DPS- we just don’t have a leader who is able to step forward and communicate that well because he’s so busy doing his job. It’s not all PR, but community pride is the first step to supporting a new levy.

Hiring consultant smart, first step

This week the debate at the school board was whether to bring in a consultant to review the district’s operations and what the scope of an audit should be. That’s an important move because so many leaders and voters are “rightly or wrongly” convinced that Dayton schools don’t need all the money that they have now.

The school board wants the business community to pay for the study, but the business community is skittish.

Maybe it’s because the Dayton Public Schools already have a consultant or two- and they led them down this path. Refunds should be demanded from Steve Avakian and Walter Ohlman for the pathetic job they did on the last levy- and on the image of the Dayton Public Schools. How about an investigative report on how much DPS has spent on these charlatans?

Truthfully, many executives have given up on Dayton’s schools, and, for political reasons, others don’t want to “own” the results. The theory goes that if the district doesn’t pay, it won’t be invested in the recommendations.

This is nuts. The review ought to be funded jointly; it should be expansive, and the consultant needs to be challenged by an “A Team” of people who are ready to dig in. What if some loaned executives went to work at the district’s central office? What if some retired executives were asked — or better yet, offered — to lend their business acumen?

I recommend hiring Pete Forester for the lead position- he knows how to best bilk the public out of their money. The fact that the paper hasn’t done an in-depth investigation on how the entire system looked the other way while DP&L was raped and pillaged at our expense is more pressing than bringing the same old cast of retired “executives” in to do consulting. I’ve seen enough of their handiwork- look at the state Dayton is in now? This wouldn’t have happened if local execs really cared about anything other than their own tax breaks.

For the next two years, every dime Dayton has counts, even more than it used to. If class sizes keep getting bigger, and if test results don’t get better, the exodus of students is not going to stop.

This is exactly why DPS must regroup and come back in November with a new, more modest proposal, and a strategy on how to give Dayton back some bang for its buck.

A study wouldn’t fix everything. But it could help the school board, the administration, the unions and committed community leaders confront what we’re not doing well. And it’s a method for putting bold ideas on the table.

Name the last bold idea that came forward that worked? Bold thinkers are run out of town in our closed door, back room political morass we’ve created and endorsed for years. You want a plan? It involves action now, not later. You want solutions- plan your offense and run the plays- you don’t win on defense, or running out the clock, you win with leadership. If Dr. Percy Mack can’t do it, if the present School Board can’t do it- hire someone who can.

A major event happened when the levy was defeated. We can confront that and figure out how to recover — or we can pretend that ensuring a quality education for 16,000 poor children isn’t important.

And, we can’t listen to the DDN editorial board if we believe that those kids don’t deserve a levy in November.

Give me 4 hours with the board and the Superintendent. I’ll show you the way. $500.

It can be done.

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50 Responses

  1. Mike July 19, 2007 / 11:34 am
    Is this statement true? “We should be ashamed that Ohio currently has more people incarcerated than in in college.” There are some big universities in this state.
  2. David Esrati July 19, 2007 / 1:22 pm

    I’ll try to double check it- but, we also have a lot of prisons and jails. I’d heard it at a forum- and the speaker was credible. Maybe my favorite fact checker, Greg Hunter, will look into it.

  3. gene July 19, 2007 / 1:45 pm
    Soooooo, if you break the law, we should not arrest you?
  4. D. Greene July 19, 2007 / 1:57 pm
    Gene: non-violent drug offenders should not be incarcerated.
  5. Bruce Kettelle July 19, 2007 / 3:58 pm
    http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/07/15/2nd_chance.ART_ART_07-15-07_B1_HE79MCT.html
    from Columbus Dispatch July 15
    “Last week, there were 49,513 inmates in state institutions, slightly less than the all-time record set last month but 12.3 percent higher than just two years ago. The system is built to accommodate about 37,000.”

    That doesn’t count county lock ups and local hoosgows.

    As for student populations I have not found that one but there are about 50 colleges in Ohio and if they averaged about 1,000 students each . . . .

  6. David Esrati July 19, 2007 / 4:04 pm

    Bruce- OSU alone has at least 35K-
    So that statement is false- but- we have a lot of local jails- even one per county- 1000 inmates each- and you add another 88,000- so it could be close.

  7. gene July 19, 2007 / 5:59 pm
    non-violent drug offenders should not be in jail, we should just shoot all of them. Why not, you want to pick and chose, so then will I pick and chose. Oh wait, that would not be in the best interest of everyone. If someone commits a crime, arrest them and process them and if that means jail, so be it. The time when we lower our standards is the same time we need to except Dayton for what it is – just a bunch of losers. Laws are laws my friend, and if you don’t think some are important then you will find a neighbor who thinks killing should be legal and he just may find you – KEEP lowering our standards, it just makes us all look like losers. Pick and chose if you will, but when someone see your property as theirs, don’t come crying here. STANDARDS. BTW, MOST by far MOST drug offenders are thiefs, thugs and others criminal types – they get what they deserve. I still have never met any real productive drug users. Step up and name yourself if you are………..
  8. Mike July 19, 2007 / 6:31 pm
    I found this site:
    http://education-portal.com/articles/Ohio_(OH):_Colleges_and_Universities_Overview.html

    It lists enrollment at top 5 Ohio schools as:
    OSU – 50k
    UC – 27k
    Kent St – 23k
    U Akron – 21k
    OU – 20k

    It seems this is enough to prove the statement wrong. I wanted to believe the statement it was quite impactful.

  9. Bruce Kettelle July 19, 2007 / 11:08 pm
    Ohio 64,123 incarcerated in all jails and prisons as of June 2005 (from a USA Today article.)
  10. Bruce Kettelle July 19, 2007 / 11:11 pm
    and David, my statement was not false, I said “if” and put it there to make the obvious point that we have significantly more students than prisoiners.
  11. Bruce Kettelle July 19, 2007 / 11:13 pm
    and (DD is right there should be a way to edit posts) I think that speaker that made the initial remark you quoted is due a phone call. Apparently he has it out for Ohio and I have little patience for throwing around untrue statistics just to make an example.
  12. D. Greene July 20, 2007 / 12:42 pm
    Gene, do you have any idea how much it costs to incarcerate people? Do you realize that when you incarcerate non-violent drug offenders you are basically screwing their chances at employment as well as sending them to trade school for crime?

    Do you realize how many no-knock raids SWAT groups conduct that end up targeting innocents and killing innocent people? Do men with automatic weapons really need to kick the doors of potheads down? SWAT teams were designed to deal with terrorism and hostage situations, not stoners, or 90 year old women.

    Oh, and I believe when you said except you meant to say accept.

    As for this amazing statement:
    “I still have never met any real productive drug users.”

    Then obviously you’ve never worked in the food services industry.

  13. gene July 20, 2007 / 1:18 pm
    I have worked in the food service industry, and many of the people are losers who work in that field and many do drugs. They all think it is cool until they have to grow up. Again, most drug users are other types of criminals too. As for cost, well, if someone breaks the law I fully expect them to be arrested. i just have higher standards than you – you must be a loser and drug user, therefore you are breaking the law. Define it how you want, but the law is the law and the minute we start picking and chosing is the minute I decide to clock you in the face because I don’t want to obey that law. There really are not that many SOLO non-violent drug offenders in jail – many are thieves, thugs, or MORE than users, rather dealers, who hurt kids and neiborhoods and property values etc….. grow up pothead – tokers are not the problem, but it is still in violation of the law. I chose to obey the laws, you don’t. If and when I do break a law, I step up to the plate and pay my fine/serve my time. I don’t care if people can’t get jobs becasue they break the law, hell, many law abiding citizens find it hard to get work so screw all the drug users….. they hurt everbody. But you are too high to understand that sort of thing.
  14. D. Greene July 20, 2007 / 3:00 pm
    You talk a big game gene, but you are part of the problem.
  15. D. Greene July 20, 2007 / 3:08 pm
    Oh, and if you want to educate yourself instead of just spouting prejudicial platitutdes, I suggest you read Bad Trip, which chronicles the abuses of the Drug War and the costs it imposes on our society. Heck, you can buy it used for 2 bucks – I’m sure even you can afford that.

    I am not condoning drug use. I am simply saying that it is not always the bogeyman people make it out to be, and that our country’s way of dealing with it is at best counterproductive – from anti-drug ads that actually cause more drug use to the destruction of innocent people’s lives, and so on. I could continue, but I realize that you are not reading for comprehension. I’ll type this next part more slowly for you:

    I am not advocating breaking the law. I am saying that the laws are flawed and that reform is way overdue. I am also suggesting that people who do break the law for drug use or possession should not be put in jail. Other methods from community service to drug rehab would be a preferable first course of action. It makes no sense to put non-violent drug users in the same prisons as rapists and murderers. The fiscal and social costs are enormous.

  16. gene July 20, 2007 / 3:45 pm
    Hey loser/drug user, if talkin a big game involves inforcing our laws than I suppose I am talking a big game. Go smoke your weed and break the law. Let me know where you live so I can send over the cops. Drug users are losers. DO YOU USE DRUGS? i bet you do. I don’t care about the drug war – if I were in charge I would send all of you to a remote island to rob each other of drugs. again MOST DRUG USERS COMMIT OTHER CRIMES – slow enough for you pot-laced brain. THAT IS A FACT, it can not be disputed. If 100 people smoke weed, 82 would commit other crimes, and it get worse for harder drugs. Read it – live it – OK, maybe you dont think stealing $50 from you mom to buy drugs is a crime but guess what, IT IS! Stop breaking the law. Where have the standards gone in the good old USA. Before all the liberal “free life” crap, people stayed away from drugs and those who did them were made to feel like they had done something wrong. But we dont want to hurt anyones feelings for breaking the law. You are a drug user, you break the law, you make your home life worse, you make you neiborhood more violent, more prone to crime, you help small kids get drugs by having drugs around, you are a poor influence on kids, you de-value everything where you live, other houses, businesses, etc. YOU ARE RIGHT by saying “the fiscal and social costs are enormous.” Yeah, stop doing drugs loser, and if everyone would stop then there really would not be any cost. And destruction of innocent people lives would END if you could stop using drugs. It is that easy, but you want to feel “good” and “free.” Move to Amsterdam, pothead.
  17. D. Greene July 20, 2007 / 4:11 pm
    Gene – your statistic on weed smokers committing crimes is interesting. Where did you get it? Do you know what percentage of the population does drugs?

    “Before all the liberal “free life” crap, people stayed away from drugs and those who did them were made to feel like they had done something wrong.”

    That is an interesting claim. So you’re saying before the 60s nobody did any drugs? Care to back that claim up? Start here.

  18. gene July 20, 2007 / 4:35 pm
    Noooooooo……Before 1960, a lot LESS people did drugs. Now, drugs are easy to find because people like you use drugs and break the law. Turn yourself in or stop using drugs. Stop harming your home, your family, your friends, your co-workers. STOP. But you are soooooo important than your mistakes in life dont affect others. Well they do, and you use drugs and therofore you are a loser.
  19. D. Greene July 20, 2007 / 5:06 pm
    Gene, I hope I didn’t confuse you. Just because one argues for legalizing something does not mean that one participates in said activity. For example, I support conceal carry laws, but do not personally own a hand gun. You need to be careful to conflate the two, otherwise you may run the risk of looking mis-informed. Regardless, what I do in my personal time is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. However, since it does seem to matter to you, for your information I am an Eagle Scout and have been gainfully employed in one capacity or another since I was 14. As a volunteer in my church’s outreach program I have seen the damage that drug abuse can do. I do not condone the use of drugs, but I think the cure is worse than the disease.

    I think the violence that the law does to certain segments of our society is unwarranted, and am merely trying to persuade you to that viewpoint. If you email me your home address, I will ship my copy of Bad Trip to you, if you want.

    My email address is [email protected].

  20. Bruce Kettelle July 20, 2007 / 5:17 pm
    FDA 1996
    U.S. Drug Use (among the 200 million people over age 12)
    caffeine 178 million 89%
    alcohol 106 million 53%
    nicotine 57 million 28%
    marijuana 12 million 6%
    cocaine 3 million 1.5%
    heroin 2 million 1%

    U.S. Drug Deaths (per year)

    nicotine 320,000 to 500,000
    alcohol 100,000 to 200,000
    illicit drugs 6,000 to 30,000

  21. gene July 20, 2007 / 5:25 pm
    Then you would be the very first person I have ever known who does not do drugs but defends not criminalizing them. Seriously, people who take you stand are 99% likley to do drugs or used to do drugs on a regular basis. It is a crime. I don’t care if drug raids hurt innocent people when drug users hurt innocent people a thousand fold.

    I cant believe you are an eagle scout and involved in your church. I guess I have to believe it. Keep up the good work. Bad Trip can be found via the internet, thanks anyhow.

  22. David Esrati July 20, 2007 / 9:24 pm

    Gene-
    I have never taken an illicit drug. I don’t drink alcohol. I avoid caffeine at all costs- and (as you all know, abhor cigarettes). I am 100% for the decriminalization of drugs- and believe we should sell them and tax them.
    I have a bigger problem with drunk drivers and cell phone using drivers- than potheads.
    I have an even bigger problem with paying CEO’s half a billion a year- while they lay off people and send jobs overseas. Those are the people we really need to put in prison- they are true, dangerous, sociopaths.
    You, on the other hand, are just a miserable hater with an internet connection. But, I fully support your participation on this site.

  23. gene July 21, 2007 / 9:49 am
    I dont hate anything, I just want to see our laws enforced. Cafeteria Americans should move to countries that allow the bullshit we will not allow. You fall into the 1%. Drugs hurt people, go look at the population of the jails. 90% of people in jail do drugs. Any connection?

    CEO’s who earn a lot of money have nothing to do with drugs – are they dangerous? no. We move jobs b/c of cheap labor, which by definition does lay some responsibility on the workers. It is hard to pay someone $35 per hour to smoke cigarettes and turn a lever which a monkey could do. I do believe CEO’s are overpaid, but i think American workers are spoiled wimps who cant spell their own name and who want to smoke all of the time.

    BTW, I am happier than you. :) !!!

  24. kiran July 21, 2007 / 11:09 am
    Gene,

    I have never done an illegal drug in my life. (I have partaken of caffeine, and alcohol, both drugs that hurt some people but didn’t hurt me).

    Illegal drugs can hurt people, but not as much as enforcing laws against them hurts.

    When a dirt bag does drugs, he hurts only himself and his close friends. When the law goes after him, it hurts everyone.

    Busy bodies like you who try to get the government to enforce their rules and morality on others are the problem with this country. This is why we are not as free a country as we are supposed to be. If you want to live under a fascist state why don’t you move? There are plenty of fascists states to choose from. This is the only almost free state.

  25. D. Greene July 21, 2007 / 2:57 pm
    Gene – Ron Paul opposes the Drug War and counts himself a Christian, btw. Like I said, just because I think something should be legal does not mean I do it myself.
  26. gene July 22, 2007 / 12:53 am
    Users are losers – It is the law – Cafeteria style for the social pricks. IT IS LAW. this is why we are weak. I am right, you are wrong. LAW. When it benefits people you argue for it, the minute it goes against your little pussy feelings it hurts. GROW UP. LAW. Learn it, obey it. Stop the excuses. My brother was killed by a DRUG user, loser. Not alcohol, but, yes, WEED! Losers. Support it and you are a loser. Tread. Spin. No matter what, still against the law. LOSERS. To anyone,anyhow and anyway who supports drug losers/ users is beyond what is right. It is bad. Kids are hurt. People are hurt. Keep making excuses. You people have zero standards. Smoke what you have – losers. Tell me where you live so I can turn you in – Losers. Drug users are shit. Now you can smoke your bowl. losers. losers. druggies. you people just dont really care about you communities. Keep somkin’. dopin; and fly high……. what a joke.

    Laws – please enforce. If you want to really debate, meet me at the drug “O” bars… people hate drugs, well at least those who dont read this blog…….. Tax ’em is to encourage ’em………. you are ALL losers. this is why you always lose.

  27. D. Greene July 22, 2007 / 8:36 am
    Why do you have such a hardon for the law, gene? You know in this country slavery used to be legal, workers had no rights, and in World War II we shipped entire populations of japanese Americans to internment camps. Those were all perfectly legal. They were supported by the law. The LAW was being followed. Sometimes the LAW is wrong gene, sometimes the LAW is stupid. The LAW is supposed to safeguard our personal liberties, not the other way around. Law is not in and of itself good or bad, it is simply an instrument of the people.

    Some laws should be disobeyed – like jailing NON-VIOLENT drug offenders. Your notion that all drug users are violent sociopaths is a little off base. Indeed, many drug users are violent sociopaths: alcoholics for example. But gene, you seem to operate entirely in stereotypes, and thus you seem in capable of carrying out a rational argument, instead resorting to canards and ad hominem attacks on some invisible bogeyman.

    And you know what, given your argument pattern and the way you comment on this blog, I think you’re lying about a family member getting killed by a stoner, I really do. Why didn’t you bring this up earlier gene? I think you’re making it up.

  28. gene July 22, 2007 / 11:15 am
    Go to the west side of Dayton and ask them if drugs have improved their lives. Accept the truth. Seriouly, go to the west side of Dayton and ask them if drugs have helped their economic situation. See if drugs have played a role in why many people can not get jobs. Ask the people if drugs makes other lazy, not really wanting a job. Ask them why immigrants coming to this country can find labor on a daily basis all over the Miami Valley. It hurts everyone. We need to get rid of drugs.

    It is against the law. Plain and simple. Again, MOST DRUG USERS ARE OTHER TYPES OF CRIMINALS AS WELL. it goes hand in hand.

    btw, kiran, what did you mean by “When the law goes after him, it hurts everyone. ”
    you are not too smart. When people break the law they need to be put in jail. A bunch of hand holding does not work – most rehabs FAIL so lock ’em up for good.

    I did not mention my brother b/c it is still very hard to accept. Also, I want to state that drugs are bad for people, even before that event. I have always hated drugs. Drugs hurt everyone. Thanks for calling my late brother out. I should pound you like a nail.

  29. Drexel Dave July 22, 2007 / 11:36 am
    Gene should move to China. He would like it there. It’s totalitarian market driven communism with a penchant for light-speed trials and executions. As a political system it seems about as much in tune with what he’s into as any other at this moment in history. But considering that the USA has the most incarcerated population percentage wide in the entire world, it’s pretty plain to see that our military/industrial/police state system is the most totalitarian right now, but China is working hard to beat us, so do not fret readers.

    Gene is a fascist who disguises his love for “law and order” from what it really is: busybody moral policing of everyone who does not conform to his corporately controlled mind that is filled to the rim with bogeyman fear. Gene calls others “pussy’s” here, but he’s too scared to even venture into Dayton’s neighborhoods, preferring the secluded enclave of cowards.

    A willing transaction between two adults, be it for sexual favors, consciousness altering substances, etc… that results in no direct threat to my personal liberty or security, is none of my damn business. I’ve always got bigger fish to fry than that. Transactions like these should be treated as other products that mankind has shown his affinity for, not like some freak-ass stormtrooper evengelical cowardice based “law and order” approach that Gene advocates.

    If the United States and its blind right-wing fascists ever own up to the fact that our government MUST stop attempting to be the moral policeman of our country, let alone the world, only then, will things begin to change for the better. You will see all of the incarceration-based subcultures of the prison population that are spreading like a disease across the country begin to disappear. The United States, through the federal government’s war on drugs, treats its citizens like hog shit, and the culture responds.

    Let’s face it, the United States is a corporately controlled fascist country where the concept of individual liberties is a total fucking joke.

    Drugs have been around since the days of Rome and long before. And in the wisdom of Dave Chappelle, “Drugs is Drugs.” The whole drug war mentality that Gene exhibits is one of a reactionary coward. Hell, our elderly population is probably the most hopped up on mind-altering substances of any other American demographic.

    Laws that are immoral should be broken, and moral citizens have the obligation to break them.

    “All of these old tricks who have fought for its criminalization and the fascist military/industrial/police state will be banished from the land.” – Tenacious D.

  30. gene July 22, 2007 / 1:35 pm
    Still against thw law, drug user/loser.
  31. Drexel Dave July 22, 2007 / 1:46 pm
    Of course folks, using Gene’s logic, he would have been protesting against civil rights marchers who broke the law by sitting at “whites only” counters 40 some years ago.

    Notice the feeble attempt at any any kind of intellectualizing of his argument other than resorting to kindergarten tactics of name calling.

  32. Greg Hunter July 22, 2007 / 2:04 pm
    Praising the law is the sign of a Pharisee and Jesus was quick to dispel this blind faith in the laws of man! I am praying for you gene.
  33. gene July 22, 2007 / 3:43 pm
    OK then. if you legalize drugs, how will this help kids? Millions of kid have been harmed by drugs. YOUR logic is that if we legalize drugs then kids using drugs is just collateral damage that happens to secure our freedoms. Please. You think the tax money can help re-hab people – why not just cut it off from the start rather than a use/abuse/rehab/failure/use again/abuse again system.

    Answer these question, geniuses of drugs:

    Would legalizing drugs help kids?
    Poor people?
    Who would it directly help?
    When have drugs made people more productive, better citizens (other than musicians :) ) ???
    How has crack helped west dayton?

    I am not opposed to challenging laws, but I am opposed to allowing stuff that hurt People, Kids, Families. You want to tax the hell out of everyone to help the poor, but most poor people fall into a life of DRUGS and CRIME, and stopping drug use would help them. You oppose guns use b/c they kills – well so do drugs. They kill people. People on drugs kill people, and commit most of the crimes. Again, 82% of criminals do some type of drug, that being weed to crack to coke to meth. Ahhhhhh, don’t you want LESS crime? There would then be LESS people in jail if we cracked down harder. But your freedoms are more important than keeping kids and poor people off drugs. You folks are the shelfish ones. Give it up to help the REST of the community.

    Drexel Dave, I live in Dayton. I don’t go to the west side often bc I dont have any reason to, just like I dont go to Oakwood or Beavercreek. I walk throughout east Dayton to see people throwing their lives away with drug use. You libs chalk it up to “culture” but it is the decay of those neiborhoods. YOU are a loser for doing drugs and you are breaking the law. So if all of you are so smart then why do many of you break the law? If you get caught you will go to jail, hopefully. Stupid people put themselves in these positions. I dont b/c I abide by the laws and I dont want to spend time in jail or pay a fine. i’m funny that way.

  34. D. Greene July 22, 2007 / 5:43 pm
    I should pound you like a nail.

    Reason #73 to be annoyed by gene: he’s the quintessential Internet Tough Guy – threatening people who disagree with him instead of making rational claims.

    Now gene, while I understand that your ability to form arguments is, shall we say, limited; Here in the big scary city we “America Haters” like to call civilization, there are rules that govern behavior and, to put a finer point on it, internet discourse. And, although one could argue that, having missed out on the more elegant points in life such as color television or refrigeration, you should be exempted from said governances – I find it best to point out that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

    This fact, dear gene, combined with your abhorrent desire to jail everyone, only leads one to conclude that your mental stature, while irrefutably suited towards a more custodial vocation, does not serve you well here on the fifth-gear world of the “information superhighway.” Indeed, I would be remiss if I did not instead point you to a more, shall we say, rewarding hobby, such as admiring your reflection in the murky waters of the local “crick” or, if you fancy, arguing with trees.

    Have a nice day.

  35. gene July 22, 2007 / 6:55 pm
    The “pounding” you like a the nail is b/c you have no manners when talking to someone who has lost their brother due to drugs. You show real compassion. I just have higher standard than you, and with out question you use drugs.

    But show a little guts big guy and answer my question. You know drugs are bad for kids, communites, familes, etc. You just are not man enough to admit it. At least tell me you recognize the dangers but are willing to roll the dice when it come to kids and other people who make poor decisions. None of you drug using libs can answer my questions: Who benefits from legalazation of drugs? How does this not hurt the poor? Kids? How would west Dayton benefit from legalized drugs? etc. etc.

    I don’t want to jail everyone, just those who break the law. Don’t you want to punish those who break the law? Have YOU ever been robbed by people who are HIGH? I have not but I have three friends who have been robbed, but of course that is OK b/c drugs only hurt the user. Right. Ask my friends who have had guns held to their head. Come on, don’t you want these people in jail. BTW, the drugs did not really help the situation, rather they provoked evil actions by someone who is not smart enough to know any better. But according to you “drugs are ok.”

  36. Greg Hunter July 22, 2007 / 9:16 pm
    Gene – Prohibition did not work and when they relaxed the law, most people used less concentrated forms of alcohol as time passed. This would be the same for drugs as the legalization would be for poppies and coca leaves. People can make their own choice whether to process it into opium, heroin or just use the poppies. The same with coca leaves, not everyone would use the concentrated form of the product. Just like you have whiskey drinkers and wine drinkers, some would chew coca leaves and some would snort coke.

    I have had a close friend die of a heroin overdose, but he was not an addicted, it was just a mistake because there is no quality control over the process. I have relatives that have problems with cocaine and alcohol, but making them illegal has only exacerbated their problem due to the stress of the legal system and the increase in cost to obtain the product. Gene – THEY WOULD NOT BE ROBBING YOU IF THE FIX WAS CHEAP ENOUGH! Doh!

    Gene, the lack of legalization is killing more people and putting money into the wrong hands than the problems generated by allowing drugs, especially the plants that derive the drugs from becoming legal.

    The US and A is extremely backward on this issue and many others but what does one expect; we are in Ohio, which is the new Alabama – backward and ignorant. Pride goeth before the Fall!

  37. gene July 23, 2007 / 3:37 pm
    Sorry Greg – people who have NO money, zero, none, will still rob you. People still behave like criminals, and making drugs cheap would only help a few people but continue to screw the poor and kids, hurting families and neiborhoods. Men still rape woman, has nothing to do with money, rather everything to do with poor decisions, being high and/or drunk, and just being a “bad person.” As you say “if the fix was cheap enough” is the single most stupid comment I have ever heard. Criminals will still be criminals, no matter if drugs are legal or illegal. Don’t let the animals run the zoo.

    Again, nobody can or will answer my questions?

    How will legalizing drugs help the West Side of Dayton?
    How will it help Kids, Families?
    How will it make it better for all neiborhoods?

    There is a reason this stuff will not be legalized – becasue it HURTS too many people. It does not HELP anyone.

  38. Pam July 23, 2007 / 5:38 pm
    Um…are you ALL on drugs??

    What does any of the above have to do with David’s original post?

    Come on, haven’t we all come to expect tangential ranting from Gene? He does it to deflect attention from things that matter. Why bother engaging him? It just diverts energy from the real issues.

    You shouldn’t pay any mind to someone who can’t give you change. You’ll get ripped off every time.

  39. Jeff July 23, 2007 / 5:50 pm
    Another way the Dayton school levy failure will drag the city down: No more money for RTA to act as a de-facto school bus system, meaning its back to the bad old days at Third & Main.
  40. Greg Hunter July 23, 2007 / 6:05 pm
    Gene – Prohibition did not work and neither do drug laws, pure and simple.

    Legalizing drugs will help west dayton, because more of the west side will be out of jail and able to support their families in legal professions. And pray tell how can the neighborhoods get worse? The drugs are illegal and people still do them and we are not getting rid of laws against theft, are we?

  41. David Esrati July 23, 2007 / 6:16 pm

    The funny thing is- no one from DPS has bothered to ask what they would get for $500- or even think it’s worthwhile.
    Someone from the Human Services Levy must have DPS and the School Board running scared.
    I can get a levy passed- and give Daytonians a solution that will make DPS the schools of first choice instead of Schools of last resort.
    Watch for more this week-

  42. gene July 24, 2007 / 1:47 am
    Pam – I do want change – NO MORE DRUGS. As of now there are a lot of drugs. Getting rid of drugs is change, something I think you should be able to understand. And if you don’t think drugs are a REAL issue, well, then you are now the single most stupid person I know. Drugs are a problem. Do you want you kids or neiborhood to engage in illegal drugs? Oh wait, too late.

    Ahhh, Greg, the west Dayton folk in jail don’t bother to make a commitment to their kids and girlfriends before jail time, having them out of jail would not change that fact. BTW, most of your West Side guys are in jail for OTHER crimes as well (as well as most ALL criminals.) They can’t step up to the plate to begin with, letting them out will lead to MORE CRIME. Ask anyone with half a brain.

    Again, you can’t answer how it will HELP people with legalization of drugs. I doesn’t help, it hurts.

  43. Drexel Dave July 24, 2007 / 8:06 am
    I don’t think folks want to engage Gene because he argues exclusively from emotion. It’s a waste of time when you lay out reasons why based upon free market principles, and they are denied on the basis of nothing but emotion.

    Gene and those of his ilk, with their moralistic anti-human nature agenda, will, and are, getting a world filled with drugs beyond their wildest dreams.

    Can you say “the donut hole of urban blight is spreading farther, and wider”?

    Absolutists will get what they want, or the opposite of it.

  44. gene July 24, 2007 / 9:24 am
    Again, like the rest of you, he can not answer my questions?

    HOW WILL IT HELP?

  45. Pam July 24, 2007 / 10:29 am
    Pay mind/make change was a pun, Gene.
    But thanks for proving my point by being too obtuse to get it.

    We’re all going to ignore you, now.
    Take the hint and go away.

  46. D. Greene July 24, 2007 / 10:59 am
    gene, it will help by lowering the cost of government, by preventing the deaths of innocent people killed in no knock raids.

    violent drug gangs will lose their funding source because they will be put out of business.

    people that are addicted to drugs will get rehab and treatment instead of jail time and abuse (TRADE SCHOOL for crime). They won’t have their lives ruined permanently even after they’ve served their time. Our Constitution has a clause against cruel and unusual punishment, but then, you probably support torture and Guantanamo too.

    Innocent people won’t go to jail because of the word of a drug informant, as just happened in CLEVELAND. Maybe I’ll narc you out gene and see how you like it when SWAT knocks down your door and doubletaps you because you were holding something in your hand that looked threatening.

    it will help children because they will be able to walk the streets without living in fear of violent drug gangs. You know what alcohol prohibition did gene? It put Al Capone and the mafia in power.

    What about the children? It will help the children because their innocent parents won’t be jailed or murdered.

  47. gene July 24, 2007 / 11:56 am
    Pam – sorry you cant come up with any answers so therefore you tell me to “go away.” That just proves you are unwilling and unable to present a realistic argument how legalization of drugs would help people. You are just a typical band wagon lib who can’t make her own decisions – welcome, again, to 1950.

    Look, we all care about poor people and children, among other things. I just think drug use hurts the poor, most of you are willing to go full circle where I just want to cut it off from the start. No child has ever obtain any benefit from doing drugs at 8 years old to 12 years old to 17 years old. More drugs will get into kids hands, don’t you care about that situation?

    You want to lower the cost of government but provide more service? No knock raid are few at best. As for violent gangs, notice the “violent” part. The association with drugs is their culture, their “violence” is their essence. These gangs do harm, with or without drugs, and should be put in jail for theft and violence, among other crimes. Why do drug rehab when we should not do drugs to begin with. It seems to me that we would not spend any money if people would follow the law. And I am not for torture, so get over it.

    Ahhhhh, cops won’t knock on my door because I obey the law. Pure and simple. I will open my home to them – I, unlike drug users, have nothing to hide. And most certainly drug use won’t make kids safer. You know that more drugs will lead to more crime, something I am concerned with, something you don’t care about.

    Again, what innocent people are being jailed? It does happen time to time, but drug users are in violation of the law, and MOST don’t give a rat’s ass about their kids. Look at their family structure and commitments to girlfriends. Look at the commitment they have to get jobs and educate their children. Most of those folks don’t care, because drug use, among other thing, ruins their prospects.

  48. gene July 24, 2007 / 11:59 am
    To D Greene – thanks for a least trying to answer my questions. You do make good points while many of your buddies won’t answer becasue they simply can’t answer.
  49. Bruce Kettelle July 24, 2007 / 12:13 pm
    Gene, The exerpt below from a CATO Institue report may help you understand the corrlation between drugs and crime. Please read the entire report at
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa121.html
    Any legalization effort must also include strict laws surrounding legal use like those imposed on alcohol use. Yes laws don’t stop all children from trying drugs but at least fewer will die bacause of it.

    By: James Ostrowski, an associate policy analyst of the Cato Institute, was vice chairman of the New York County Lawyers Association Committee on Law Reform
    “It is often thought that illegal drugs cause crime through their biochemical effects on the mind. In fact, marijuana laws were originally justified on that basis. Today, the notion that marijuana causes crime “is no longer taken seriously by even the most ardent [anti-]marijuana propagandists.”[43] Regarding heroin:

    There is no doubt that heroin use in and of itself. . . is a neutral act in terms of its potential criminogenic effect upon an individual’s behavior.. . . There is nothing in the pharmacology, or physical or psychological impact, of the drug that propels a user to crime.[44]
    Cocaine, like other stimulants such as nicotine and caffeine, can stimulate aggressive behavior. However,

    personality and setting as usual make all the difference. . . . Jared Tinkelberg, commenting on a DEA study and in general on the relation between cocaine and violence, expresses some surprise that it seems to produce “amphetamine-like paranoid assaultiveness” so seldom and concludes that at present it is not a serious crime problem. . . . Most violence in the illicit cocaine trade, like the violence in the illicit heroin traffic today and in the alcohol business during Prohibition, is of course not necessarily related to the psycho-pharmacological properties of the drug. Al Capone did not order murders because he was drunk, and the cocaine dealer “Jimmy” does not threaten his debtors or fear the police because of cocaine-induced paranoia.[45]
    When the New York City Police Department announced that 38 percent of murders in the city in 1987 were “drug-related,” Deputy Chief Raymond W. Kelly explained:
    When we say drug-related, we’re essentially talking about territorial disputes or disputes over possession. . . . We’re not talking about where somebody is deranged because they’re on a drug. It’s very difficult to measure that.[46]”

  50. Eleni August 23, 2007 / 10:21 pm
    Gene, if marijuana was legal, people would not have to consort with criminals to buy it, thereby reducing exposure of juvenile potsmokers to other more dangerous drugs. Last I checked, there was not an overwhelming body of evidence that it was any worse for people than alcohol, nor, if legal would it have a particularly negative impact on our society – look at the Netherlands. Personally, I would imagine that it could be a decent source of income with people paying the government exhorbitant taxes similar to those levied on cigarettes and alcohol. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. The government would then have a source of income to pay for outside consultants because apparently the people we hire in the public sector who are supposed to be experts in running the school system are not really competent to do their jobs. Perhaps the consultants could just bring in more consultants…….btw – I am not advocating nor promoting drug use in the non-adult population.

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