A sad day for justice in America

I don’t want to live in a society where guns are considered necessary. The wild west is nice in movies, but, I’ve never considered gunslinging to be an honorable profession. George Zimmerman was a gunslinger, and somehow vigilante justice just got a hall pass- and I don’t like it.

When it comes to most things, I’ve got great disdain for amateurs, wanna be’s and poseurs. I don’t feel safer that a lot more people are packing heat after a 12 hour course and some rudimentary background check. Guns, to me, aren’t a hobby, or a collectible or even a prized possession- they’re made for killing, and quite frankly, killing gets glamorized way too much in this country. There’s noting romantic about killing- and even in wartime, often the people doing the shooting aren’t the people who should be dying.

Trayvon Martin shouldn’t be dead. Wearing a hoodie, being black, shouldn’t be an invitation for anyone, to harass, question, or shoot you. Something is wrong with our justice system when a man with a gun, who was told by the police dispatcher to stay away and to stay in his car, disregards those instructions and starts a tussle. Instigating a fight isn’t a license to “stand your ground”- instigating a fight and then feeling inadequate isn’t an excuse to shoot someone.

I doubt George Zimmerman will live to be old enough to have a son that reaches Trayvon’s final age. It’s cases like this that prove we have a legal system, not a justice system and that there is a big difference between the two. But, I have no doubt that karma will come calling to Mr. Zimmerman- either by his own hand or someone elses, the circle will come around.

If George Zimmerman was half the man he wished he was, he’d do us all a favor and bow out gracefully. He must know that had he listened to the police, Trayvon would still be alive, and he wouldn’t be the poster child for idiot of the century award.

He may have beat the system today, but the system is about to get tested, and it’s not going to be pretty.

It’s a sad day for America. A vigilante just got a gold star for killing an innocent man. I think we need to do better, or this isn’t the America we thought it was.

First Florida gave the world George W. Bush, now they give us George Zimmerman. Maybe we should just make DC or Puerto Rico a state and jettison Florida?

I hope there is an appeal, for all of our sakes. Peace.

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28 Responses

  1. truddick July 13, 2013 / 11:29 pm
    Martin’s parents will now sue Zimmerman, who will lose.
  2. Pat Offenberger July 14, 2013 / 2:21 am
    A vigilante got a gold star for killing an innocent man? So, after a court trial of a couple of weeks, with a jury hearing testimony, and it’s not the end result you wanted, it’s not justice?
    You choose to cite one illogical statement often heard during this case, that Zimmerman “disregarded the instructions of a police dispatcher?” That troubles me, because the “instructions” of a 911 operator carry the same weight as mine would if I told you to quit breathing. And, since you certainly followed the case, based on your judgement that they got it wrong, you surely heard the 911 tape. And if you did, you surely could distinguish that Zimmerman was breathing hard PRIOR to being told that by the 911 operator, and returned to normal breathing after being told that by the dispatcher.
    It’s not illegal to follow someone through a gated community, whether you’re Zimmerman or a 90 year old lady.
    Testimony in the trial tended to support Zimmerman’s version of the events of that evening, based on what witnesses observed. Jurors heard the evidence, and even asked for clarification of what constituted manslaughter. If that was a charge the prosecution wanted on the table from the start, why wasn’t that included on the charge sheet. Nobody forced them to charge for just 2nd degree murder, but then, when the course of the trial showed their case was in serious trouble, after the case had been argued simply on 2nd degree murder, they included the manslaughter charge at the last minute. No wonder the jury couldn’t decide to convict on manslaughter, they didn’t know what elements had to be proven for them to convict of a lesser charge.
    The state’s own witnesses weakened their case, and hurling insulting term to describe Zimmerman makes your argument weak. So, anyone who carries a firearm is now a “gunslinger” and a “wanna be?” I’m willing to bet that George Zimmerman is much like every person I know who has a concealed carry permit, and carries for self defense. They pray that they’ll never see a day they feel they’re forced to defend their life with deadly force.
    This case was brought because of intense pressure from those in our society who wish to further the divide between the races, not unite us. It was a flawed case, trumped up by biased media coverage, even to the point of editing audio of the 911 call to take comments out of context simply to further inflame the debate. Yet, we’re not seeing this same level of concern about the killing of innocents, when both the attacker and the victim share the same race. 
    So, if offering an opinion counter to your biased viewpoint gets you dumped, I reckon I’m booted as well!

    A vigilante just got a gold star for killing an innocent man. – See more at: http://esrati.com/a-sad-day-for-justice-in-america/10153/#sthash.fSil2dnv.dpuf
    A vigilante just got a gold star for killing an innocent man. – See more at: http://esrati.com/a-sad-day-for-justice-in-america/10153/#sthash.fSil2dnv.dpuf

    A vigilante just got a gold star for killing an innocent man. – See more at: http://esrati.com/a-sad-day-for-justice-in-america/10153/#sthash.fSil2dnv.dpuf

  3. Rick Kaczmarek July 14, 2013 / 5:38 am
    David, you are either misinformed or lying.  
    The FACTS are these.  George Zimmerman had already left his car when the public safety dispatcher inquired if he was following the person he had reported.  George had followed the person to find out where they went, so that he could direct the police to that location. This is exactly what every reasonable responsible community member would do.  I have done it, and so have you.  When we have reason to believe someone or some activities pose a threat to our community, we do something about it.  The facts tell us Zimmerman called the non emergency number and reported it, asking for the police to check it out.  The person who aroused Zimmerman’s suspicions left his sight.  In order for it not to be YET ANOTHER case of the police showing up, not being able to find the person and thus not being able to do ANYTHING to help this besieged community, Zimmerman went off in the direction Martin had walked, to see what he could see.  There is no evidence Zimmerman intended to do anything else.  When the operator thought she heard (and she was correct), that Zimmerman had left his vehicle and was on foot in pursuit, she said, “we don’t need you to do that.”   The evidence presented by the Prosecution at trial tells us that Zimmerman, upon hearing this advice, said, “OK,” and he STOPPED pursuit.  Zimmerman didn’t find Martin, either.  Martin jumped Zimmerman, punched him. Broke his nose.  Wrestled him to the ground and began reigning blows down on him.  
    The false facts you are basing your position upon are untruths.  You repeat them here either in an attempt to fool people, or because you are not aware of the facts.  
    You do everyone, most of all yourself, a severe disservice.
    We’d all be better off, if everyone would stop lying and fooling and willfully embracing fantasies when contrary facts are readily available.
  4. Jamie July 14, 2013 / 8:53 am
    My understanding of the law (and I’m no lawyer) is that there cannot be an appeal of a not guilty verdict as that would put him in double jeapardy. However one possibility, like in the O.J. case, is that the Martin family can sue him in civil court so that he never profits from this travesty.
  5. John Ise July 14, 2013 / 9:22 am
    Zimmerman might not be guilty, but the state of Florida certainly is with this crazed”stand your ground” law.  Slate.com put things right noting, “After all, as Adam Weinstein points out, the lesson right now for Floridians is this: “in any altercation, however minor, the easiest way to avoid criminal liability is to kill the counterparty.” But you can see the box the jurors might have felt they were in. Even if they didn’t like George Zimmerman—even if they believed only part of what he told the police—they didn’t have a charge under Florida law that was a clear fit for what he did that night.”
  6. Dave C. July 14, 2013 / 9:41 am
    I think manslaughter would have been an appropriate verdict. Both individuals behaved like morons, but Zimmerman did shoot and kill Martin.
  7. David Esrati July 14, 2013 / 11:11 am

    The legal system failed- in lining up the charges with the evidence. It doesn’t change the fact that justice wasn’t served.

    Had this been in Australia, Germany, Japan- Zimmerman wouldn’t have had a gun to shoot Trayvon.

    I don’t want to live like I’m in a combat zone- where I have to have a gun at my side at all times. People like Zimmerman and the laws in the State of Florida are changing the definition of what it means to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    Brave is not achieved by having superior firepower- bullying is.

  8. Rick Kaczmarek July 14, 2013 / 2:59 pm
    David, again with the distortions and untruths.  Are you an adult, or a child?  Seriously.
    There are people killed by guns in Australia, Germany and Japan.  There are also people killed by all sorts of other methods.
    You continue to pretend.  
    In THIS case, Martin may have been unnecessarily singled out for attention.  The correct and proper response to this was not to attack Zimmerman and start beating the living [email protected] out of him.  For that horrible decision is why Martin is dead.  
    Besides your strange insistence on ignoring the actual facts of this case, you’ve bought into a false alternative hypothesis – if Zimmerman didn’t have a gun, Martin would still be alive.
    There is nothing to support that, for Martin attacked Zimmerman in a deranged fit of rage.  What’s to say the cops wouldn’t have shot and killed them, had he knocked Zimmerman unconcious and continued beating him?
    The facts of this case are that Martin attacked Zimmerman.  That action was against the law.  Zimmerman, on the other hand, defended himself from attack.  Something he is entitled to do in every state in the USA.  Something for which every jury in every state would have found him innocent.
    David, bro, we can disagree on all sorts of stuff.  And you are entitled to whatever opinions you choose.  But when you insist on using this format to propagate untruths, you damage your credibility as a serious adult who has the judgement to lead.  If you can’t get these simple facts of this case correct (perhaps while still clinging to your emotional position about Martin’s death), you are saying to everyone, – I REFUSE to pay attention to the truth.
    Ya gotta stop, man.
  9. Fonzie July 14, 2013 / 3:56 pm
    Esrati has officially jumped the shark!!!  
    You liberals make it sound like Trayvon was a 5 year old riding his bike at the circus.  His loss of life is tragic but his actions carry some of the responsibility, not just Zimmerman.  He also made decisions that night that contributed to his death!  You need to remove your emotions from your thought process and look at the FACTS!
    Zimmerman should have never been charged. In fact, the local Prosecutor’s Office refused charges. Then it became a political/media circus.  Do you recall the media initially identifying Zimmerman as a “white” man? He is as much white as Obama is by the way.  Do you remember NBC “doctoring” the 911 tape, to make Zimmerman look really bad? Then our self proclaimed 1st back president got involved.  Our own government, the DOJ, sent workers down to Florida to set up protests against Zimmerman! I repeat…your tax dollars were spent on organizing protest to drum up support AGAINST a person who, under law, is presumed innocent until proven guilty. All of this by the Department of Justice, sounds like fair and equal justice.  And finally, a “Special Prosecutor” brings charges against Zimmerman WITHOUT going to a Grand Jury.  If she had, the evidence would have been presented then and the Grand Jurors would NOT have indicted Zimmerman because the evidence does not support the charge, manslaughter included.  
    The whole situation is sad. Just because it’s a tragic event, does not mean it’s criminal! 
  10. Dr. Funkenstein July 14, 2013 / 8:47 pm
    This case has been a disgusting racist anti-white set up from the beginning.  The hate machine at NBC edits 911 tapes to make it sound like Zimmerman was following this punk just because he was black to stoke racism and hate into the brainwashed black population in this country.  Zimmerman did what any responsible person would have done in a community victimized by crime and was attacked at night by a thug.  Didn’t you take photos of black kids that stole your bike David?  What if one of those kids was a 17 year old that was bigger that you and he broke your nose and then jumped on top of you and starting beating your ass at night David?  Ending bigotry and ignorance needs to start by ending the racist hate machine the democrat party has started that has obviously ensnared Esrati. 
  11. Gene July 14, 2013 / 9:29 pm
    “Had this been in Australia, Germany, Japan- Zimmerman wouldn’t have had a gun to shoot Trayvon.” – DE
    Right. Well, maybe. But then Zimmerman might be dead from getting his ass kicked. So what is your point? What would you say then DE? Seriously?
    They went for Murder 2. They fucked up with that. This is a much lesser manslaughter situation, 3 to 5 years at best.
    Zimmerman should serve some time, but that shipped sailed in the name of “liberal outrage.” It is the liberal medias fault for pressing this issue and then almost baiting them to bring a charge that was way too harsh – murder 2? Ooooooopppps. You get what you pay for liberal hacks.
  12. Pat Offenberger July 15, 2013 / 12:39 am
    I tend to agree that the media, MSNBC specifically, tried their best to paint this case as a “armed white guy is killing innocent black youth.” When that failed, after it came out that Zimmerman was a “White-Hispanic” (whatever the hell that means), it then morphed into a “concealed carry holder” is out to kill black kids. And, of course, painting Zimmerman as a “wanna-be” cop, implying that simply following Martin made him deserve to be beaten down by Martin.
    The vast majority of folks I know who hold concealed carry permits, have a helluva lot more training than a 12 hour course. I hold one, and carry as often as possible. But like all the folks I know that carry for self defense, I pray that the only shots I fire are at paper targets on a range.
    I just don’t get your blanket indictment of people who opt to carry for self defense, trust me, they’re not a danger to you. But, the folks out there in our society who are carrying illegally, and have their firearms for criminal purposes, are around you much more than you can imagine. You really need to consider that reality.
  13. LostinDayton July 15, 2013 / 3:27 pm
    Dave, you mentioned later on in another post that if Zimmerman had been in such or such a country, Martin would still be alive.  You’re right, he would be, and Zimmerman would would Mai dead.  We in America have a right to defend ourselves, even if we start a conversation with someone.  The facts weren’t there to convict GZ…sorry you can’t accept that.  Martin had absolutely no other injuries on him other the gun shot.  
  14. LostinDayton July 15, 2013 / 3:36 pm
    And just add Dave, if you we’re in a situation where you were being brought up on trial and you learned that a major network altered a phone call to make you look bad AND you the learned the prosecution withheld evidence, you would have the ACLU down in South Park so fast it would look like a tornado hit.  Justice?  
  15. David Esrati July 15, 2013 / 7:12 pm

    If Zimmerman hadn’t gone after Martin- he wouldn’t be getting his ass kicked- and had to shoot to survive.

    I’m not sure why no one thinks that maybe Zimmerman got out with a gun- pointing it at Martin- who rushed him- and his only mistake wasn’t killing Zimmerman so he wouldn’t get shot. But, then he’d be up for murder and found guilty.

    Reality- we should go back to 1776 technology in firearms- if we are going to keep talking about the 2nd Amendment.

    A flintlock pistol and I bet Martin would still be here.

  16. Gene July 15, 2013 / 7:57 pm
    “This “mugging” – or more properly, armed robbery with felonious assault, is seriously damaging the confidence of a lot of neighbors. Tonight, we’ll be out patrolling our streets (again, the last time was after a rash of burglaries- of which I was a victim on more than one occasion about a year ago). There is talk about offering a bounty for information leading to an arrest. And, I’m sure there will be a few single women and young families reconsidering our neighborhood.”
    Those were your words Mr. Esrati. SO … you were “patrolling” your streets but Zimmerman was an asshole for patroling his. This is the reason why no one takes you seriously. You talk out of your ass (sorry to be “graphic” but it is sooooooo true in this case) and just change your GD mind when ever you want to support your liberal agenda or hatred of conservatives. Keep typing – you are so easy to pick apart.
    Defend this Mr. Esrati…..
  17. David Esrati July 15, 2013 / 9:06 pm

    Gene- there is a difference. I don’t judge people in my neighborhood for being black or wearing a hoodie. We know most of our neighbors here. We talk. We also call police- and expect them to respond and do the right thing.

    Zimmerman was an asshat. He started it. Listen to the 911 tapes.

  18. Rick Kaczmarek July 15, 2013 / 9:47 pm
    David, you not only are acting extremely immature in this thread, you also refuse to acknowledge the truth.  You obviously did not watch the trial and have not examined many of the You Tube videos of real trial testimony.  
    What Zimmerman did is not only nearly identical to what you have actively advocated in the past, it is also exactly what we all want in our neighborhoods.
    There is zero evidence, David, that Zimmerman judged this kid for being black or wearing a hoodie.  Anyone who listens to the call Zimmerman made to the police can hear his calm mixed with frustration that people who looked EXACTLY like this person had previously vicitmized his neighbors.  We ALL want people to call the police when they see suspicious people who aren’t acting normal.  Zimmerman saw other people walking in the rain that night.  They were all moving quickly through the pouring rain.  They were also all moving on the paved areas of the community.  What they were not doing, but Martin was, was walking unnaturally slow in the grassy area immediately adjacent to a vacant residence that had previously been broken into.
    David, you are very determined to ignore any and all evidence that contradicts the narrative you really, really want to believe.  That is your personal failing.
    But to the extent that you publis this blog in part to aid your community, be an advocate for causes you believe in, and bolster your efforts to win elected office – you are demonstrating an uncommon resistance to examine available evidence and moderate your reactions based on actual facts, as well as reasonably differing interpretation of facts.
    You are convinced that a concerned neighbor who was not motivated even a little bit by race should rightfully be assaulted and threatened with death, because you hate that he was carrying a gun.  You’ve convinced yourself that Zimmerman was motivated by things that ABSOLUTELY NO evidence shows motivated him.  You are engaged in an active campaign to remove and silence all who tell you the simple truth – that you are buying into fantasies that are contrary to proven facts.  
    Seriously, pal, you and your neighbors would be better served if you took a few deep breaths and examined the actual facts here, instead of repeatedly hammering non facts.  It makes it nearly impossible for anyone to take you serious.
  19. Rick Kaczmarek July 15, 2013 / 9:50 pm
    Quickly, David.  You asked (above)  
    I’m not sure why no one thinks that maybe Zimmerman got out with a gun- pointing it at Martin- who rushed him- and his only mistake wasn’t killing Zimmerman so he wouldn’t get shot. But, then he’d be up for murder and found guilty.”
    My reply:  I am sure some people (including some reasonable people) do speculate that this is what happened.  But it is far removed from the facts that were presented at trial and decided by the court., 
    Would you really, honestly have a jury supplant your fantasy of what MIGHT have happened with that which was established in Court?
  20. Gene July 15, 2013 / 10:07 pm
    “He started it.”
    Started what? Patroling his neighborhood just like you? He was following TM and then, most likely, TM felt threatened and hit/jumps GZ. At this point both are at fault. Just bc you are followed does not give you the right to hit/jump somebody. And that is what most likley happened – so who started what?
    TM could have stopped and asked “may I help you?” – But, most likley, he felt GZ was a “bad guy” just like GZ thought TM was a “bad guy.”
    The facts are the facts  –  and the main fact is that we just don’t know who started what.
  21. Bubba Jones July 16, 2013 / 7:30 am
    “I don’t judge people in my neighborhood for being black or wearing a hoodie. We know most of our neighbors here. We talk. We also call police – and expect them to respond…” – DE
    Gosh, David – isn’t that the exact same thing that GZ did?  He knew his neighbors.  He talked to them. He knew that TM wasn’t a regular in the neighborhood.  So, TM was suspicious to him.  So he called the police and expected them to respond – JUST LIKE YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBORS!  And, as far as GZ wearing a gun – I seem to remember in one of your posts where you talked (bragged???) about openly wearing your 9mm on your hip.  So, who’s the asshat???
    But, most likely, he felt GZ was a “bad guy” just like GZ thought TM was a “bad guy” ” – Gene
    Actually, Gene – if my memory is correct, the sworn testimony was that TM thought that GZ was a “creepy ass cracker” that was following him.  This from the girl that he was on the phone with while GZ was trailing him.  hmmm, “cracker”?  Isn’t that a racially derogatory term used by young urban youths to describe Caucasians?  So, who introduced race into the conflict?  
    As has been pointed out several times, David, you just refuse to acknowledge any of the facts in this case and you’re letting your emotions control what you’re writing.  I first met you about 25 years ago and over those years I’ve seen you do and say some pretty stupid things, but all of this is really at the top of that list.  You are only correct that it was a tragedy that a young man was killed.  But, all of the evidence supports the fact that the young man made it to his house, but then decided to double back and attack GZ from behind.  And, despite all that the media would have you believe, this young man wasn’t exactly the cherubic angel that the published pictures of him would lead you to believe that he was.  If so, he would have gotten off the phone with his female friend and he would have called 911 to report that he was being followed by a suspicious man.  But, instead this young man, who’d been smoking pot (the autopsy found it in his system) and who had a history of street fighting (testimony that the jury wasn’t allowed to hear) and who had been trying to buy a gun himself (more evidence that was withheld by the prosecution until a “whistle blower” – now fired from the prosecutor’s office – presented it) decided to ambush someone else.  Unfortunately for the young thug, his intended victim was armed.
  22. David Esrati July 16, 2013 / 8:38 am


    a few relevant things about Zimmerman.

    In July 2005, he was arrested for “resisting officer with violence.” The neighborhood watch volunteer who wanted to be a cop got into a scuffle with cops who were questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking. The charges were reduced and then waived after he entered an alcohol education program. Then in August 2005, Zimmerman’s former fiance sought a restraining order against him because of domestic violence. Zimmerman sought a restraining order against her in return. Both were granted. Meanwhile, over the course of eight years, Zimmerman made at least 46 calls to the Sanford (Fla.) Police Department reporting suspicious activity involving black males.

    We also know that Witness No. 9 accused Zimmerman of molesting her when they were children. The relative’s revelation is appalling but irrelevant. What most folks don’t know is that Witness No. 9 made an explosive allegation against her cousin. “I know George. And I know that he does not like black people,” she told a Sanford police officer during a telephone call in which she pleaded for anonymity. “He would start something. He’s a very confrontational person. It’s in his blood. Let’s just say that. I don’t want this poor kid and his family to just be overlooked.” At the end of the call, Witness No. 9 urged the officer to “get character reports from other people and see if he’s ever said anything about black people, about being racist or anything like that because I guarantee you there’s somebody out there who will say it.”

    That phone call was significant because it was placed two days after Zimmerman killed Trayvon and a couple of weeks before the case drew national attention. Witness No. 9 wasn’t seeking attention. “I’m a mom,” she told police. “I can’t stand seeing that some kid got shot and killed over a stupid fight, especially one that my [redacted] … because I know who he is.”

    George Zimmerman is the one who stands accused of second-degree murder. He, not Trayvon Martin, is the one on trial starting June 10. And who Zimmerman is more relevant to the proceedings than who Trayvon was.

    via George Zimmerman’s relevant past.

    There is a difference between open carry and concealed carry- and, there is also a difference between someone walking- looking for actual crimes in progress- compared to cruising in a car and creating a crime by introducing your own racial bias.

    There is also a difference between actual military training- on my part, and Zimmerman’s get a gun and assume he can take care of himself.

    And- last I checked- most people who smoke pot- generally get the munchies and chill- as opposed to go postal on people.

    The jury did what they had to- based on the constraints imposed. although at first it was a 3-3 split. I said we have a legal system, not a justice system. No one elected or appointed George Zimmerman to be judge, jury and executioner, but that’s what he was. He’s a victim of his own stupidity- yet, Martin died. That’s not Justice- unless we’ve resigned ourselves to live  in the wild west.

  23. Gene July 16, 2013 / 5:51 pm
    According to th FBI GZ is not a “racist.” The FBI certainly investigated this man, don’t you think? So how do you know he is a racist? Or is this just a typical liberal phrase you hacks use when you can’t make a real argument?
    What “contraints” did the jury have imposed on them? Again, you are just making shit up. Why would we elect you when you just make shit up?
  24. David Esrati July 16, 2013 / 6:58 pm

    Gee, Gene, you elected Nan Whaley, not once, but twice- and you talk about just making sh1t up?

    The FBI- really? How were the Feds involved in the trial- you making things up?
    And- the constraints of all juries- are the guidelines- and what was allowed to be entered into the trial.

  25. Gene July 16, 2013 / 8:03 pm
    page 2
    “So far, however, the FBI has found no evidence that racial bias was a motivating factor in the Feb. 26, 2012, shooting. Agents investigating the case last July determined that Zimmerman had not expressed racial animus at any time before the confrontation with Trayvon in a Sanford housing complex.”
    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/15/3501867_p2/zimmerman-juror-to-write-book.html#storylink=cpy
    Please read DE, then weep. You are such a liberal cry baby hack. This is almost too easy DE. You are showing your age. This also proves you have not been reading up on the trial.
    If they find a racial bias then maybe someone will listen to you. So far none has been found. Well maybe TM was racist with that cracker comment. Go protest will Al Sharpton – lord knows it will be a bunch of out-of-work, hand out accepting thugs……
  26. Dave C. July 16, 2013 / 9:50 pm
    @Gene: How about dialing back the Ad Hominem attacks? 
  27. Ice Bandit July 16, 2013 / 11:38 pm
    …nossir dear David, George Zimmerman wasn’t the only dude to receive a UFC quality ground and pound. For guys like Gene, Pat Offenberger, Bubba Jones and Rick Kaczmarek have been giving you such a beat-down on this post they’re probably all wearing hoodies and eating Skittles. Each of your detractors dear David brings reason, facts. logic and knowledge of the law to their posts to illustrate the folly of your emotionally driven arguments. Alas, it may their misfortune to realize you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into…

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