I had a long conversation with a friend today. Someone inside the system, someone who wins elections. One on one, he stands up for me. In public, he keeps a safe distance. He wants me to change my style- I want him to stand up and take things head on. Somewhere, there is a middle ground- but, in Dayton it’s a no man’s land we don’t want to talk about, we avoid, we ignore and we pretend that it’s not the fundamental flaw- the root of all evil, what’s holding us back.
It’s as simple as this: Dayton is going to stay screwed until we integrate- and I’m not talking just Dayton, city of- I’m talking Dayton- regional.
This article that I quote below- from NewGeography.com is the most prescient article I’ve read that sums up what’s holding us back. And it’s not the fault of the black people- it’s a fault of all of us. From Oakwood with its handful of black students- to Wright Patterson Air Force Base which does a crappy job of reaching out into the local community to support small and minority business.
It’s our political parties that play games with elections, and our poor excuse for a Federal Judge Walter Rice- who can’t realize that the “desegregation” process imposed on Dayton Public Schools in the seventies- did nothing to integrate the suburbs – foisting white flight, sprawl and a permanent screwing of the core city.
We now have a group of people who are convinced we can become a “progressive” hip mecca- without realizing that until we find ways to employ our minorities, we’re going to continue to have a class struggle- and a mess on our hands. No amount of “bicycle friendliness” or “complete streets” compares with good schools with opportunity or jobs that pay more than just a hardscrabble wage.
I highly recommend you read the whole thing- not just this excerpt- to find out why the dreams of the “Dayton Development Coalition” and their “Regional Rally” aren’t going to get us there- until we address the fundamental problems:
As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large. Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip? Many of the policies of Portland are not that dissimilar from those of upscale suburbs in their effects. Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable exactly the same as large lot zoning and building codes that mandate brick and other expensive materials do. They both contribute to reducing housing affordability for historically disadvantaged communities. Just like the most exclusive suburbs….
Lack of diversity in culture makes it far easier to implement “progressive” policies that cater to populations with similar values; much the same can be seen in such celebrated urban model cultures in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. Their relative wealth also leads to a natural adoption of the default strategy of the upscale suburb: the nicest stuff for the people with the most money. It is much more difficult when you have more racially and economically diverse populations with different needs, interests, and desires to reconcile.In contrast, the starker part of racial history in America has been one of the defining elements of the history of the cities of the Northeast, Midwest, and South. Slavery and Jim Crow led to the Great Migration to the industrial North, which broke the old ethnic machine urban consensus there. Civil rights struggles, fair housing, affirmative action, school integration and busing, riots, red lining, block busting, public housing, the emergence of black political leaders – especially mayors – prompted white flight and the associated disinvestment, leading to the decline of urban schools and neighborhoods.
The only way we are going to fix ourselves- and to balance things out, is going to take a gigantic community gut check- a deep swallow of humility, and a strong communal spine- one that stands up for what is right – really right. It’s going to take a Dr. King or Gandhi-like leaders- to march us down the path to what we have to do to compete- and survive: regionalize and integrate, whole hog, everything.
One government, one school system, one income tax, one zoning code, one region under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
And not just Montgomery County- we’d include Beavercreek, Fairborn, Springboro- even Xenia, Tipp and Troy if they were smart. Springfield too if they’d like. We’d become big, and we’d learn to share. We’d find the best of the best to lead us- and pay them well. We’d stop thinking small- and think like an Army taking on a battle of international proportions. We’d make sure that we thought about the big picture first- and stopped sweating the small stuff.
Of course, I’m crazy for thinking this- or saying it. In Dayton, we don’t do anything without a collective hug, and the blessing of the poobahs. But, as long as we stay divided, we’ll continue to fail.
The moment our numbers start being looked at as a region, and we start acting as one, we can start addressing the real inequities in Dayton, the ones that are holding us back. We can stop “protecting our turf” and start actually harvesting it and selling it to the world.
I’m not suggesting I can lead the charge, but at least I can call for it. I don’t have to protect myself, my position, or my power base. Call me an antagonist, call me a jerk, but- then look inside and after reading the article quoted above- tell me if there is another way to go. I want to know.
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{ 149 comments… read them below or add one }
I read what you wrote but, I’m not quite sure what you said (or how to respond for that matter). I suppose I should preface my comments by saying that I’m a minority (African-American, Black, however one wants to coin it). And what I think I read you writing (or perhaps, what NewGeography.com wrote) is that as a minority, I am unable to do things for myself; that I’m totally dependent on government hoisting me up (as opposed to simply ensuring that there’s a level playing field and then leaving it up to me to get on that field); or that I’m totally dependent upon the whites who fled to the suburbs to make special accommodations just for me.
I’m not sure I like any of those concepts (or the remedies that correcting them would entail).
Or perhaps, I just completely misunderstood what you wrote. I’ll find and read the whole article so that I can grasp the concept more fully.
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@Brian- the link to the article is right below the indented block quote. The article is controversial. What I’m saying is the model that the powers that be are working on- to “turn the city around” are based on success stories from cities that have less segregation and less minorities- until we face our own demons- we won’t be able to move forward. Here is the link again: The White City | Newgeography.com.
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I read the NewGeography.com article.
Another preface before I comment: When I was selected for City Council earlier this year, a Dayton Daily news reporter wrote: “As the lone African American on the board, Jarvis will bring some cultural diversity to a group now made up of three men and three women.” My response to his comment (as was quoted in the Dayton Daily New) was: “Jarvis said he thinks diversity is important, but not just diversity for diversity’s sake. “I think it’s important, but I think what goes along with that is a person’s character and what they bring to the table.”
What I understand NewGeography.com to be saying is that the “blackness” of a city is the true measure of its progressivness. That’s an awfully patronizing point of view. As is the idea that “progressivism in smaller metros is so often associated with low numbers of African Americans?” I never looked at myself as being a measure of how progressive a city was. Again, an awfully patronizing and insulting point of view. (I can’t wait to read the readers’ comments on that article. I’m certain that it won’t be pretty.)
Living here in Beavercreek (92% white), I haven’t viewed the city’s residents’ choice to live here (in the suburbs) as fleeing away from minorities. (Though, there are of course some exceptions, I see it primarily as fleeing from areas that are impoverished.) If it were (fleeing from minorities), my being selected for city council earlier this year put a partial nail in that thinking; and, my being elected by the residents to city council a couple of weeks ago put it completely to rest.
“the traditional sine qua non of diversity,…” I’m gonna have to think hard on that one.
That article is certain to throw race relations back a few decades.
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@Brian- I would think the divide between the races in Dayton has shown that race relations here haven’t improved in the last three decades. We replaced racial integration in our school system with economic segregation as the people of means bailed out of Dayton. We’ve been living a lie for the last 30 years thinking that busing children was a solution.
We’re not doing a good job of attracting business to our region- with multiple, uncoordinated agencies and departments fighting over every single lead- selling their soul (and all future property tax revenue) out in the name of “economic development.”
We are an uncoordinated mess- in large part, because the “elite” don’t want to deal with the troubles they left behind 30 years ago.
This article is out there- it’s a lightening rod for discussion- about the “new urbanist/creative class” vision and the old community/working class reality.
The fact that the DDN is a racist rag and factors your skin color into an endorsement is yet another indication that we haven’t moved past race issues here.
The discussion on the NewGeography article is as interesting as the article.
I’m trying to get a discussion started here about embracing our diversity- and looking at true systems integration- so that we at least all pay into the same fund- elect the same people- and expect similar results.
I’m tired of people complaining about taxation without representation (I live in Centerville but work or own property in Dayton) or- the fact that other than Dayton and Trotwood- Charter schools and their attendant problems are purely an urban thing.
Never mind the redundancy of leaders- and the lines on the map that no longer make sense (like the Greene being in Beavercreek/Greene County instead of Kettering- when 675 would make a better boundary).
Face it- we’ve got problems of a much larger scale than our current, antiquated systems are built for.
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I think we agree with the facts of each (or most of) your points:
1. “We replaced racial integration in our school system with economic segregation.” Absolutely true. No question about it. (Now it’s how much green, and similar morals, values, ethics, etc., that you bring with you that matters.)
2. “We’re not doing a good job of attracting business to our region.” In certain areas of the region, I agree.
3. “We are an uncoordinated mess.” Possibly true. Is it a requirement, that I (Beavercreek) must coordinate everything I do with Riverside, Kettering, Dayton, etc.? I don’t think so. We each have our strengths; our own visions for our respective cities. That said, it would be interesting to see what resulted if we did coordinate. But, I can’t say that I agree that I MUST coordinate for the region (and/or for my city) to be successful.
4. “This article…. is a lightening rod for discussion.” (As well as your blogs, I should add – and I do appreciate your commentary.) True. However, I’m always cautious when writers (e.g., the NewGeography.com article) throw out numbers and percentages. A phrase we use at my day job is “If you torture numbers long enough, they’ll say anything you want.”
5. “The fact that the DDN is a racist rag and factors your skin color….” (That one is good for a lunchtime discussion to see where exactly you’re coming from – tough to get into specifics in a sentence or two.)
6. “The discussion on the NewGeography article is as interesting as the article.” Again, true. And discussion is the only way for the best ideas to bubble to the surface.
The other comments do bring good discussion, when not taken to extreme. Embracing our diversity is great but, don’t think you have to treat me special. What makes this experiment so interesting is that we don’t all pay into the same fund, we don’t elect the same people, and we certainly don’t expect similar results. (At least, I don’t.) We each take advantage of the opportunities presented to us, utilize them in the way that benefits us, and then (hopefully) guide that to the results that we want. And, we can expect different results. It would be a boring and uninteresting society if everything we did resulted in the same outcome for everyone.
(The Greene comment took me by surprise. Should Beavercreek have lost all property between I-675 and Stroop/County Line Rds when the highway was put in? Whether or not one agrees with The Greene being there — and there was lots of opposition at the time — that is Beavercreek property to be used the way zoning allows. Perhaps they should have tried harder to build the highway along the borders of the municipalities?)
I think that we agree on many of the facts. The ideology and philosophy is just miles apart. But, that’s OK – I can still appreciate the dialogue.
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Is it a requirement, that I (Beavercreek) must coordinate everything I do with Riverside, Kettering, Dayton, etc.?
Perhaps it should be. Does it help Greater Dayton (i.e., the metropolitan area) when the City of Dayton and the City of Kettering compete to move Reynolds+Reynolds jobs back and forth? Does it help Greater Dayton when the City of Riverside and the City of Huber Heights compete to move Meijer jobs? Is it best for Greater Dayton to ever expand outward, leaving a rotting core? Perhaps at some point we can bulldoze the City of Dayton and the first suburbs over and start over again with farmland in the center.
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Black people can move to Oakwood, why would you suggest otherwise?
In the real world, with real people, we just live life. Putting pieces to a puzzle that don’t fit is a tough way to go through life. Let people do what they want to do, live where they want to live. If black people want to live in Oakwood then I suggest they buy a house of rent an apartmentor rent a house. No one is stopping them. Are you suggesting Oakwood should recruit black people?
Making situations more complicated than they need to be confuses people into thinking there is a problem. The problem is making up stuff to write articles and sell books and newspapers.
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the “blackness” of a city is the true measure of its progressivness…I never looked at myself as being a measure of how progressive a city was
Gay people get in trouble whenever we compare our situation to that of African Americans, but I’ll wander in and say, you know what? I’ve certainly looked at myself as being a measure how progressive a city is. I was absolutely flabbergasted in 2007 when so many people claimed that banning discrimination based on sexual orientation would be Dayton’s downfall. Yes, because cities such as New York, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Boston, Columbus, etc., etc., etc., have become desolate wastelands since banning such discrimination. No, instead the reality is that cities that are attractive to minorities including “teh gayz” tend to do better economically. I’m not black, and perhaps if I were, I’d find it patronizing for cities to want to provide a safe welcoming environment for me, but as a gay man, if it’s patronizing to ban discrimination against me, if it’s patronizing to provide a welcoming space for people like me, go ahead and patronize me.
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Black people can move to Oakwood, why would you suggest otherwise?
Perhaps, Gene, you’ve never heard of the term “Driving While Black.” Who knows whether Brian’s ever been stopped driving down Far Hills for no discernable reason, but having facilitated many, many Dayton Dialogue on Race Relations groups, I’ve heard from many African Americans who have been.
Is it illegal for a black family to buy property in Oakwood? Nope. Are there absolutely no reasons why a black family might feel uncomfortable moving to Oakwood? Please.
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I was stopped in Oakwood by detectives in black suits in an unmarked car while bicycling through a fancy pants neighborhood. Long-haired Appalachians are a suspect class there too!
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People feeling uncomfortable in Oakwood would be ,,,,,, drum roll please.,,,,,,,,,,,, THEIR PROBLEM. Fact, There are black people that live in Oakwood. Fact, there are well over 100 homes for sale plus a lot for rent in Oakwood. My suggestion is that if you are black, and you want to live in Oakwood, go buy a house in Oakwood (or rent). If you do not feel comfortable then that is your problem. WTF do you people know about Oakwood and who lives there? Really. Just like you say people stereotype others, you folks sure are stereotyping people from Oakwood.
People did not roll out the welcome mat when I moved to Dayton. I am white in a mix neighborhood. But somehow someway you expect people to roll out the mat for black folks…….. get over yourselves. This is only a problem in you mind.
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[Interesting how this topic always leads here] –> When you refer to “Gay people”, I assume you’re referring to that person’s activities or actions. So far, this discussion has limited itself to discussing how people are treated based on who they are, not the activities they engage in. When we begin to wrap into the discussion how people are treated and accepted into a community based on activities they engage, we bring it to another level which complicates and distracts from the original discussion.
For example, if this community said that they didn’t want anyone living here who drives red SUVs (which I happen to have), I’d say that that was well within their right to not want anyone to have red SUVs. If they say they don’t want any person to live here who is yellow or red or black or white, etc., that wouldn’t be acceptable. I always differentiate decisions that are made based on who people are vs what people do.
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The reality is there would be no Beavercreek if there was no Dayton. If you tell some one in Istanbul you are from Beavercreek- they have no clue, but say Dayton- and they’ve heard of it (from the Balken Peace Accords- which have meaning around the world- more so than the Wright Brothers for now).
We don’t celebrate our diversity well- except in the diversity of our communities- where each is very different. I’m enjoying Brian’s level of discussion on this subject and am glad to see him here.
Gene is as predictable as the sun coming up in the East- as is David L bringing in his issue and Drexel, excuse me Wesley, bring in his.
We’ve been playing a lot of shell games in the community- moving assets around the region- when we’ve needed to bring new players to the table. We’re not going to do that until we put our petty communities aside and look at how we’re all connected.
Keep talking. I’ve got other things to work on today.
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I just think it is funny that you think Oakwood needs to have more black people living there? Why? And why go to Oakwood leaders, why not go to black people and suggest that they move to Oakwood?
Oakwood is not in the practice of recruiting any one type of person. There is no agenda whatsoever. To prove that, a lot of Jewish people moved into Oakwood….. Do you think the city set out to recruit them? No. Houses were for sale or for rent and BOOM, Jewish people bought them (mainly bc of the proximity to the synagogue, I am guessing.)
Again, well over 100 homes in Oakwood for sale right NOW. Plenty are for rent. Go round up one hundred plus black families and sell them on the virtues of Oakwood. They are more than happy to move there. And if they had 100 plus families do this then all of the sudden you don’t have you little hand holding “we are the only black family in Oakwood” mentality. With 100 families they would feel more than comfortable, because that is what life is all about, making people feel comfortable.
Still waiting for my neighbors to bring over cookies……
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David Lauri,
Just FYI, the Meijer on Harshman that got poached to Huber was in the City of Dayton, not Riverside.
Hopefully the Meijer move at least solidified Kroger’s business up there, and they won’t be fleeing farther north too.
All the posts on here about thinking regionally with regards to decision-making are 100% right. For the guy that just got elected to Beavercreek Council, just remember that the more companies you poach from Dayton to fill in space at the Greene or the Acropolis, the closer we all get to having our area be thought of like Detroit on a national scale. If the core City goes down, you’re all coming with us.
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I was jus’ sayin’, ya’ know. Now, I’ve got an interracial relationship to attend to. Ask questions if you’ve got them.
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The West side of Dayton is really not rolling out the rug to invite us white folk over there…. I am not sure if it is racism, but damn The West Side has never ever reached out to me and I have lived in the Dayton are for 45 plus years…….
The West Side of Dayton has not reached out to me for business purposes either. What is up with that? That needs to change. I think we should put the leaders of the West Side of Dayton in jail for not being more open minded and accepting of white people. This has gone on for years and years.
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East Dayton is the integrated diverse part of Dayton. White/Black/Hispanic/Middle Eastern/Some I’m forgetting. It’s a boulubaise of ethnicities and cultures compared to the west. Nobody seems to want to even acknowledge this. Not sure what it ultimately means, but it is what it is. There are, however, plenty of whites living in West Dayton sporadically, or in small pockets. Right off of Gettysburg Avenue behind Gardendale School is one example, although there are more.
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@Brian:
“I always differentiate decisions that are made based on who people are vs what people do.”
Then under your system it’s ok to for a community to say they don’t want anyone living here that doesn’t worship the same way that they do.
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Actually, because that (i.e., religion) was one of the foundations and underpinnings of the creation of this nation, that is the only exception that I make.
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Although it must be noted that cultural anthropology shows decisively that melanin has absolutely no connection whatsoever to culture. Thus, we witness the ability of anyone with higher or lower levels of melanin to become a part of any other culture (i.e. a black person can be culturally Japaneese, German, British, Kenyan/the same holding true for whites or anyone of any other melanin level).
Therefore, aren’t we talking about a cultural schizm first? It’s common knowledge that there is in certain parts of America a cultural schizm between African-Americans and African immigrants exists. Why? Culture. It’s the same dynamic that exists between cultures all over the world, regardless of melanin, which is inconsequential, but used and abused way too often.
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At least from my vantage, having lots of experience in rural, suburban, and inner-city environs, the cultural aspect of our different communities in America is completely unfathomed by most of the populace. There are as many cultures and sub-cultures within’ the majoritarian culture of the urban African American population as any other. But you would never know it from studying American media, especially local media.
When you realize that the breadth and depth of cultures unlike the one you were raised in are much more similar than different in that they are anything but one dimensional – all cultures are multi-dimensional – then you see how stupid the question of melanin is.
And when you’re ready to peel that culture onion in an honest manner, you see that we’re all just DNA-to-RNA-to-protein primates looking for a decent life. Genetically, there is no such thing as race.
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When you refer to “Gay people”, I assume you’re referring to that person’s activities or actions.
Your assumption is completely wrong. Guess what? I was gay before I ever acted on it. I was gay and called “faggot” before I ever knew what the word “faggot” meant. I have always been gay.
You invited David Esrati to “a lunchtime discussion to see where exactly [he's] coming from,” and I’ll follow that lead and invite you to a lunchtime discussion to see where exactly you’re coming from. It would be foolish of me to assume I know where you’re coming from, although, given what you’ve just said here, I do have some idea.
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“Gay” is like having a propensity similar to an addicit’s to be hooked on crack, alcohol, etc. The genes are already built-in even before the drugs are used (or as you indicated, even before you acted on the feeling). Similarly, it’s simply an unfortunate defect in the genes.
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I think the intention was to say that a person that is gay can not necessarily be spotted across the street, but when you are black you really can’t hide that fact.
Not that anything needs to be hidden…. it is just that somethings, gay or straight, are just better left not talked about in casual company/conversation with you neighborhood. To be blunt, people don’t want talk about sexual relations in public, nor should they. Therefore people really have no idea if a person is gay or straight. But it is generally obvious in any setting what color you are.
I am certain DL will come up with something that disputes this, but to a everyday normal person, someone who is not analysing every little last thing, you neighborhood does not know (unless you tell them) if a person is gay or straight, and often they don’t even think about that subject. Certainly there are exceptions to everything, but for the most part people don’t know if a person is gay but they certainly can tell if a person is black.
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Defect?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDXMI5Y9-k
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“it’s simply an unfortunate defect in the genes”
What? You must be taking this from a biblical standpoint Brian. Otherwise who is to say what a defect is. Heck, God may be the worlds biggest drunk and wants all of us to be drunks but only gave the drunk gene to a few of us. Now I feel special.
Defect is not what it is……..
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@Brian…I’ve been watching & reading this conversation since last night when David first posted this article comparison. I knew it was going to go south fast, yet sure as hell not in this direction. I found your first several reply post somewhat insightful.
Yet, you’ve now sunk to a very low & disrespectful level . To suggest that a gay man is gay, because of
“an unfortunate defect in the genes”. I hope that the citizens who elected you in Beavercreek, who didn’t judge you based on your cover, next time around look even further into your caliber of character.
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The point is, no one gets to hide behind the curtain of ”I was just born that way.” We’re all responsible for our individual actions, we choose our actions and activities we engage in, and people judge us by those actions. That’s the actual storyline behind the NewGeography article and why people choose to live where they do and away from others. It always goes back to one’s individual choices and those choices being different from others’ choices.
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@ Brian….a gay man didn’t choose to be born gay, just like you didn’t choose to be born black.
Yet, as you say “We’re all responsible for our individual actions” as you will be held accoutable for your public statements here today. Enjoy a short term on the Beavercreek City Commission Mr. Jarvis.
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I really wish we did not have to have this conversation. If a white person wants to move to West Dayton go. If a black person wants to move to Oakwood go. A person should be able to live wherever they want. If your neighbors don’t welcome you to the neighborhood go introduce yourself. Sometimes you have to be the first to make a move instead of waiting for somebody else. Don’t feel sorry for yourself because you are making $10 an hour but a CEO of a big corporation is making millions. Create a plan to make your situation better and don’ t stand around with your hand out waiting for someone to help you out. If you don’t know where to start go to the library or learn to network.Somehow and someway the City of Dayton residents need to come together and stop making it a white or black issue. By making changes to attitudes, then Dayton can work on improving the schools, cleaning up the neighborhoods, attracting new businesses and expanding established businesses,and attracting a diverse population of people who want and like to claim Dayton as their home and giving current residents a reason to stay. When things are improving in the city then suggestions and ideas to unite the Dayton region can be identified. I’ve seen plenty of good ideas thrown around on this blog but talk is cheap. Let’s see some action.
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What I don’t do, is to say that because I’m black, that I have to act a certain way. That would violate basic principles of being responsible for ones actions. The same rules apply to me as apply to anyone else — it’s consistent and not hypocritical.
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Brian, does that mean you are refusing to have lunch with me?
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Gene, straight people flaunt their heterosexuality all the time, as you well know and would admit if you weren’t trying to provoke a response. They flaunt their heterosexuality when they get married, when they walk about pregnant, when they rent apartments or buy houses together, when they wear wedding rings, when they put pictures of their boyfriends or girlfriends or spouses on their desks, all without ever saying one word about what they do sexually.
Similarly, gay people don’t have to say a word about sex. If two men and their kids move into the house next door, the neighbors get that the men are gay. In Beavercreek, where Brian is on council, if the person selling that house meets the men and doesn’t want to sell to to them just because they’re gay, that’s perfectly legal. I think that’s wrong.
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One last thing, and then I’m done responding to this thread (Brian has my phone number sent in a private e-mail if he cares to be Christian and dialogue with the other, something Jesus set out as an example for him to do) — when I first got called “faggot” I sure as hell hadn’t done any “talk[ing] about sexual relations in public.” Years after that first time, in high school I desperately tried to hide who I was for all the good it did me and still called called “faggot” and worse.
Strangely enough, now that I’m comfortable with who I am, now that my being gay, if it’s a problem is the other person’s problem and not mine, I don’t get called “faggot” very often.
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My point was that most people do not sit around all day thinking about their neighbors sexual preference. Hell, you can hardly get a hello out of people today. Let’s not overstate our worth.
I said nothing about flaunting. Most people don’t care all the way around.
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Yet, as you say “We’re all responsible for our individual actions” as you will be held accoutable for your public statements here today. Enjoy a short term on the Beavercreek City Commission Mr. Jarvis.
Hah! His views on the subject are probably probably will get him more votes considering how conservative Beavercreek is.
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Anyway, back on topic. The author of the New Geography piece, Aaron Renn, and I have a long on-&-off interaction on the net, since we both posted on the old Louisville.com forum (Aaron was from Southern Indiana with family ties in Louisville and as y’all know I am a former Louisvillian).
Aaron went on to host a website on Chicago transit and is now running the very respected Urbanophile blog, one of the better urban affairs blogs with a Midwest focus (Aaron is now based in Indianapolis). Here is an Urbanophile post elaborating on the New Geography article:
http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/10/20/the-white-city/
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Is it ok for us “unfortunate defects” to go shopping at the Green?
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Jeff, thanks for the links to the Urbanologist and to his link to an American Prospect article [ http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=refugees_of_diversity ] on the concept of “Whitopia”. Two very interesting viewpoints on “diversity”.
Note in particular the comments about Indianapolis and Columbus programs/plans on this issue and think about whether there is an I-70 connection that can be exploited,copied or otherwise be useful to Dayton.
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@Joe Lacey…..understand the rules, of “unfortunate defects” shopping @ the Greene
1) spend lots of $ & then complete 2&3 as fast as possible, before you might
flaunt your crack addict like behaviors for anyone to see
2) go to a certain infamous watering hole & be over over overserved & then kicked out
for being so overserved
3) then get yourself killed…or as damn close to it as possible
4) don’t worry we’ll cover up the whole chain of events & the media will have to dig
for over a week to find even a 1/2 of the story
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Okay. Back on topic.
The White City does not talk about handouts or special treatment. Renn is discussing the issues that make Portland and Denver different from Atlanta and Houston- all four cities are succeeding, but for possibly very different reasons.
When Dayton, and Rustbelt leaders- civic and thought leaders- discuss how to make a city better, they look at Portland. They talk about Denver. Why? These cities do not share the amazing diversity of most Rustbelt cities. Renn’s suggestion is that Rustbelt cities, with their great diversity of income and ethnicities- more diverse than Portland and Denver- would do better to consider the cities of Houston and Atlanta as examples of how to succeed in the post-industrialized world.
We know that turf wars, territorialism, and male display behavior once used by Rustbelt city leaders to help create industrial jobs and woo companies is no longer effective. It’s now obvious that this hoarding behavior is not conducive to growth and is offensive. While Houston, Portland, Denver, and Atlanta have all successfully created an atmosphere of creativity and growth, Houston and Atlanta have done so in part because of, not despite, the extraordinary diversity (all types of diversity) of their residents, by actively looking for ways to share resources and pull together to lift up the entire region. Dayton isn’t there yet, but personally, I think that Dayton has all the pieces to put this puzzle together, I believe going forward Dayton’s great strength will ultimately lie in its diversity, we just need the proper leadership, or, maybe we just need the current leadership to get out of the way…
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btw- Teri was the one who forwarded the article to me.
Thank you Teri for putting this conversation back on track.
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I don’t care what the original post was. A public official posted that gay people are “unfortunate defects” and a lot of “progressive” and “liberal” folks seem pretty anxious to ignore it. Refusing to confront this kind of garbage in whatever medium is a big mistake.
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@Joe- I think David L has addressed it quite well- and is setting up a meeting.
I think Mr. Jarvis (Brian) is deeply mistaken with his position on what equality means. I’m still of the belief that “all men (and women) are create equal” leaves no questions. When I’m asked to fill in the box on race- my answer is always the same: “human.”
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I still don’t get your comment regarding Oakwood David. What are you suggesting?
Dayton is much smaller than these cities. All of these cities discussed have huge differences as well. The common thing among them is that they are cities, other than that these cities are all very different. By evening having a discussion on these cities is stereotyping them in a way that they all have to be similar. Well they are if the similarities are Downtown’s and people and business and parks and schools, etc. But each city is very different, and each city had different section within. So why lump them all together? Dayton is not Atlanta or Portland or Houston or Austin or Denver. And all of those cities are different in a lot of way.
Why compare to other cities? It is pointless. I have a friend that always say something like this : In Chicago…………. That is where I stop him. This is Dayton. Not Chicago. We don’t have the Bulls and the Bears and the Sear Tower (now renamed) or Lake Michigan. We have the Flyers and Dragons and Kettering Tower and small rivers.
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I’m with Joe on this…David, I went “off topic”, yet I have to say I was fuming all day long yesterday about Mr. Javis comments & it wasn’t just one…he just kept on digging his ditch deeper with insults after insults. More importantly to me….you didn’t pipe in at all, which you normally do, and when you finally did it was only in praise of getting back on track.
I was more than disappointed to think this public official was given an open platform to continue to foam at the mouth with hate & ignorance.
As far as my comments w/ the Greene…I’m fuming over the most recent accident there, if the same thing had happened at a Dayton bar/shopping center, it would have been top news for days…Beavercreek covers up & hides very serious safety & security issues that occur at these locations…..the public has no idea what really goes on there.
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@David E
David L gave Mr. Jarvis his phone number and then addressed comments by Gene, not Brian. Most of your posters don’t seem to have a problem with a local public official posting a dehumanizing comment about gay people on your blog.
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Joe….my comments don’t seem to be getting posted for some reason
I’m so furious as a straight LGBT rights supporter…I have shared Mr. Javis comments with many today in the Greene County area, since I live in Sugarcreek. As I will also be personally contacting other elected officials in the Beavercreek community to share with them the words that were publicly posted….and that I will stop spending any $ in their community as long as he is on council.
not everyone that follows this blog is an insensitive ass
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@Joe L and Jen- I’m sorry- I thought I’d allow my readers to take care of this- and, I feel they did quite well.
@Gene- Why was Dayton forced to integrate under court order- and no suburban communities were? Do you understand?
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A guy fell off the banister…. hardly news worthy. Stupid people + Alcohol = Injury to Stupid person.
It passed the safety regulations……. thousands of people have managed to go up and down those stairs, both drunk and sober, black and white, male and female, and they seem to negotiate the terms of the stairs and stairwell/railing. BTW, they have an elevator. Next time Stupid person, if tempted, should take elevator.
“the public has no idea what really goes on there.” What does that mean. What goes on there is the same at the Dayton Mall and most every other place that is designed like that… and the public goes there, all the time. That is who they want there. It is open to everyone.
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Dayton was forced……… it was wrong. So you propose to do wrong things in the suburbs now.
Answer the question. You state that Oakwood does not have enough black people. Why don’t they move there then? Is Oakwood discouraging black people from moving there? If so, where is the proof. Black people do live in Oakwood, there are over 100 house for sale and many for rent. Round them up and tell them they are able to get into Oakwood. Will they? Ask the black folk…. most don’t want to move, and don’t want to have anything to do with Oakwood. Why? Again, ask them
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I guess Oakwood could half forced half the Smith kids to go to Harman and half the Harman kids go to Smith. Would that have made a difference though?
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I’m with Joe on this…David, I went “off topic”, yet I have to say I was fuming all day long yesterday about Mr. Javis comments & it wasn’t just one…he just kept on digging his ditch deeper with insults after insults. More importantly to me….you didn’t pipe in at all, which you normally do, and when you finally did it was only in praise of getting back on track.
Me too. The entire point of Jarvs’ discourse was about disrespect. And perhaps a bit about trolling. Maybe it means the gay issue is what’s salient here, not so much the racial one. No one is going to seriously going to cop to racist attitudes or stereotypes, but it’s still OK for guys like Jarvis to make comments like he did about lesbians and gays, and essentially say that they need to quit whining for being discriminated against if they are out of the closet, to take personal responsibility for the consequences of others prejudices.
Then there is the genetic defect comment, which has a whif of eugenics to it.
Lacey’s comment was right in relation to me because I did take a pass on discussing this, but I just get tired of dealing with the homophobia over and over again online.
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@ Gene, There is more to this story at the Greene than just another stupid drunk falling over a banister. There is more to this story than just the “reported ” 30 plus 911 calls to the police/fire in Beavercreek to this particular bar since just May. Yet, many can’t or won’t comment because there is still pending litigation from the first accident/death. There is some responsibility in the hands of an establishment with a liquer permit….
(ORC 4301.22 (B)) DON”T sell any alcoholic beverages to an intoxicated person.
It should be common sense when enough is enough & you stop serving & when you seek help.
If the media were to dig deeper & interview more people…it would be news worthy, employees are the ones who tipped them off in the first place.
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It is a meat market. That ain’t news. What do you want to know about the place? It is a bar. Alcohol rules, and drugs exist. Again, it is a meat market with meat heads. Go see for yourself.
They did report it, and they would report it if it were to happen DT Dayton, but no one ever goes to those bars anymore. So now those bars are pretty safe.
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@ Gene, I know more than enough about this place & I know what goes on there first hand & you don’t need to describe the place to me, I’ve held temp independent contracts with the company….I also know what a young mans brain looks like outside of it’s skull & I know when you stop playing games & encouraging drunks to drink more. I can also read board of health reports & police public records. Enough said.
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Well there you go then. What is the problem if you know so much? Every bar I go to, or ever have gone to, over serves. Only a few people go beyond the point of no return, a lot end up just really drunk. This place is not that different from a lot of other places. That is my point.
My question is what is your beef with this place? You seem to know a lot about it. Is it the media coverage, or lack thereof? The management? Other employees? Please tell.
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I have a problem with a police department, that time after time, only gives verbal “warnings” for the same severe offenses …to keep the spotlight off their community & new prized shopping center…so that the $ keeps flowing in. The offenders wrongful actions get worse, because they know whatever happens, it will get swept under the rug. Do you not question why it took almost 2 weeks for the media to pick this story up? This shopping center is close to my home & my teenager spends lots of time there with friends…..it is marketed as a family towne center….to drive through on a weekend night, it sure isn’t a place I would refer to as family friendly. I think that the community has a right to know what all is really going on at the place where they drop their kids off to shop & go to the movies.
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Brian Jarvis’ view echo those of religious & cultural leaders like Raleigh Trammell and Rev. Shanklin in leading opposition to the Dayton anti discrimination ordinance. Homophobia exists in many forms and it seems to me that that religious opposition is among the most venomous and intolerant.
Race and sexual identity are inextricably linked and cannot be separated. Why people like Brian think the way they do is not a local, Beavercreek issue. I did some quick research into homophobia among a African Americans and came came up with the following articles.
Are Blacks More Homophobic?
By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2003/09/10/are_blacks_more
The failure to transform: Homophobia in the Black community
Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church
… of religious affiliation, service attendance, and other factors to homophobic attitudes among …
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Thank you Gary for the sharing the links. I’ve always felt as if there seemed to be more homophobia within the African American community, yet I’m rather startled now to the extent. Here’s a link about the violent homophobia in Jamaica & how prevelant it is within the reggae music community.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/03/violent-homophobia-in-jamaica.htm
I know that homophobia exists in every neck of the woods. I also feel that voters should be aware of those elected officials that make such comments publicly.
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Speaking of “defects” has anyone checked out Jarvis’ website? I was visitor #59 according to his counter. That would be today– weeks after his election–meaning all of a couple dozen voters in Beavercreek bothered to check him out before electing him. That explains a lot.
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Based on what I know of the gay rights struggle in Kentucky, in Lexington and Louisville, I can’t make a broad brush statment that African Americans or African American politicians are going to oppose gay rights. , even if the religous leaders are hostile.
In Lexington a black minister and community leader refused to be co-opted by the anti-gay forces, perhaps partly because the gay and black communities both shared a history of police harrassment. This helped ensure passage of Lexingtons antidiscrimination ordnance. In Louisville & Jefferson County there was a decade-long politcal struggle to pass antidiscrimation protection, for both the city and county. The black adermen split on the issue, but enough supported the law so that it would pass, including one, Reginald Meeks, who would later go on to be a state represantive. So no political cost to him, at least.. In the county, the black county commissioner also supported anti-discrimination protetcion.
One of the things that made this work is there was that a case was made that there was, indeed, discrimination, and there was lot of grass roots organizing. The Fairness Campaign (the Louisville movement) was doing a lot of work buidling coalitions, including with activists within the black community itself.
So I’d be a bit leery about painting with a broad brush. Especially since one of the strategies of the right is to use this as a wedge issue to divide potential political allies. It serves the rights’ purpose well to have the GLBT and black community attacking each other and opposed to each other. Some people fall for this. Others do not. In the case of Lexington & Louisville it ultimately didn’t work.
A brief history of the gay rights struggle down in the Bluegrass State (a tough row to hoe), reprinted from LEO, the Louisville version of the Dayton City Paper:
http://www.fairness.org/NewsEvents/IntheNews/TenYearsLeoCover/tabid/703/Default.aspx
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Homophobia is not more prevelant in Dayton’s AA community. The 39th house district, dominated by west Dayton, voted no on issue 1, the anti-gay marriage amendment, in 2004.
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@ JA – let me get this right. You want the media to report on areas where YOU drop your kid off? Should I hold your hand?
You know about it so I suggest you stop dropping off your kid there. The media has reported on The Greene. I know about it, as do you.
If you have a beef with the police I suggest you take it up with them. Life is not perfect, nor is The Greene. It is a meat market (AG) and anyone with half a brain knows this…… Again, most if not close to all bars over serve. Open up your eyes.
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66 comments, and not one has addressed the disproportionately high crime rate in the Black community, especially as it relates to Dayton. If we’re going to “face race,” we need to do it honestly.
Yes, I acknowledge that there’s an economic factor in play…yet, east Dayton is not exactly rolling in money and jobs at the moment, and yet a quick glance at DDN’s homicide maps makes it obvious that the vast majority of violent crime is occuring in Dayton’s predominantly Black neighborhoods.
It’s hard to attract business when your city’s crime rate is something to the effect of three times the national average. It’s hard to feel sympathetic for a community where every other story involving a shooting or a homicide ends with “witnesses refused to cooperate with police.” Social programs, “reaching out”, et cetera, clearly only goes so far; at some point, change must come from within the affected community. And until that happens, I can’t blame those on the other side of the river, or in other communities, for not wanting to be a part of it.
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For fun I am going to defend Jarvis. If males and females had zero attraction to one another, do you think that the human race would have continued long? I think that heterosexual is the norm for humans. So, having sexual tendencies outside the norm, could be considered a defect. However, I have read that most dimples are the cause of a birth defect. So, while Jarvis’ comment may be inflammatory, in a science lab was he really that wrong?
I think where Jarvis went wrong is that he called it an unfortunate defect, which would imply he associates gays with lack of fortune, whereas I consider my defect of dimples quite fortunate. If I were his PR guy, I would suggest he say something like “I only mean unfortunate in the manner in which I imagine you are treated”. Good luck with that. Besides what he thinks, it remains to be seen if he would act in a manner which would be discriminating to gays. Maybe he thinks that way and maybe that makes him feel all sensitive to defective people and donate lots of time and money to their charities. Point being, his thoughts are not discriminating.
For the most part I am with Gene. Dont amplify and let people live. David’s suggestion that the city reach out to small and minority business………….well why? Why should a minority be given advantage over the majority? Why should not the best competitor win? Jarvis was very correct when he stated their should be a level playing field and that is all. Hopefully his well received rhetoric is not completely lost. What David implies is not a level playing field.
As far as your regionalism, it is quite simple. People dislike being taken advantage of. For example, why would Oakwood want to share their revenue with someone else in the region that had less money? Why would people willingly give away benefits to their childrens school system? Regionalism only makes sense if you do away with the underlying socialism. Efficient government is an oxymoron. Less government is the only efficient government and that would be regionalism. But to get there, you would have to do away with public owned property and systems, otherwise you are simply forcing charity to Dayton. I am not sure what economic sense this call to action makes and thus (hopefully on topic), I give reasons why the government simply has no place in these decisions.
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If males and females had zero attraction to one another, do you think that the human race would have continued long?
Yes, that’s a brilliant canard to trot out when explaining why gay men and lesbians shouldn’t have equal rights. Why if you let teh gayz marry, pretty soon all the kidz will be turnin’ gay and then the human race will go extinct.
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The term “unfortunate defect” is dehumanizing. The more people read and hear dehumanizing comments about gays, the more people believe that gay people are to some degree less human, especially when those comments go unchallenged. The more people believe that gay people are less human, the more people are willing to participate in gay bashing. I trust Mr. Vigh had fun reading about last week’s murder and decapitation of Jorge Steven Lopez, a gay teen in Puerto Rico.
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DL and JL, very emotional. I simply laid out the only possible logical remnant that could be attached to that statement by Jarvis. So take a big deep breath and try reading it again.
@DL: In no way did I mention that homosexuals should have less rights. I did bring to light how someone thinks of you is not discrimination until they act in a manner which negatively impacts you. The part that you quoted is out of context and I am at the mercy of your emotions. Read it again when you are done over reacting.
@JL: As I pointed out, it is the unfortunate part that made it sound so bad. If he would have left it at “defect”, I think he could go scientific and get away with it. Did I not draw special attention to the unfortunate part? Why would I enjoy reading about a murder? Dehumanizing, is that a grandiose word for insulting? Your reaction seems way over the top.
In relation to the article, you have a chance to turn this around: Do you consider homosexuals a minority? Do you feel they should garner special treatment from government agencies and communities as a whole because of this minority status?
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This is not emotional. It is fact. Defect means lacking something necessary for completeness, so I ‘m not completely human. Defect does not mean “outside the norm”. Defect doesn’t qualify for the population, normal or abnormal. Someone sincerely believes gay people are defective. He’s not simply tossing off an insult to make a particular person angry or hurt. And he isn’t keeping this belief to himself, he is actively preaching it on a blog and possibly elsewhere. Such language gives comfort to those committing all sorts of hateful acts against gay people. Don’t you think that his city manager might now stop to think about it before hiring an openly gay person at the city, an “unfortunate defect”, who might come into contact with the councilor? Maybe a Beavercreek policeman or other employee who hates gay people will be more emboldened to act on that hatred knowing that they may now have a friend on council.
How can Mr. Vigh think that defending this is “fun”?
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How come you did not answer the questions that are related to the article?
Why do I think it is fun: Because it is an extremely difficult position to defend. It requires articulation, patience and thought to correctly convey any type of defense. Furthermore, without some form of logical opposition, you never really get to elaborate on the reason why you find it so disheartening and you look emotional. Such as opposition gets response of “You must enjoy reading about the death of others” (this is why I my emotions thought you were being emotional). So, it is a difficult task for my brain and I find those fun.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/defect
The comment was made on a gene. Not on gay people. Where does he advocate anything negative against the gay community. If you are born gay, if the choice was never yours to make, if you have pre-disposed genetic fondness for the same sex, someone calling that gene a defect does not fall into the hate category in my opinion.
I disagree with your position that the city manager will now change his hiring methods. While I see his comment as insensitive, I do not see it as discriminating. When read in context, I think it was extremely over reacted too.
I am interested in your answers to the questions you skipped.
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Who cares? Brian has a defect, and it is unfortunate, that he believes what he believes. It is one man’s opinion. He lives in Beavercreek, so vote him out if you live there.
We have become too sensitive to this. He did not beat anyone up or not rent them an apartment, etc… he made a stupid statement. Stupid people do this from time to time.
Happy Thanksgiving, thanks for the “fumble” Brian………..
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@ Joe Lacey…the only comfort I have at this point in the conversation is that I know my call to action & others request to Greene County voters & friends has at least put Mr.Jarvis & his comments on the radar…the hits on his campaign website have jumped from #59 on Monday to #514 today
Happy Thanksgiving JL & DL
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The irony of it all is that Mr. Jarvis was accused of “foam[ing] at the mouth with hate & ignorance”, yet the reaction to his opinion has been wildly, disproportionately hostile. Really – boycotting all the businesses in a city because you don’t like one remark by an elected official?
Keeping in mind that any traditional understanding of the teachings of the major monotheistic religions absolutely forbid homosexual activity, do the posters here believe that the world at large should give up their faith to accomodate the minority, or should the religious just “keep it in the closet”? Who are you to say that one worldview or lifestyle should be accepted and celebrated but not another?
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Mr. Jarvis said that the building blocks that make us human are defective in gay people. I never said that he hates anyone but his words do give comfort to those who do hate gay people. Defending those words as accurate gives comfort to the same.
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Earlier in this thread, Mr. Staiger stated that religious opposition to homosexuality is “venomous and intolerant”. Would a religious person have a right to be offended by his choice of words? Could they give comfort to those who hate religion? Could it, however indirectly, contribute to church burnings? I’m guessing he’s the same Gary Staiger that owns Omega Music… would it be sensible to boycott his business? If he were an elected official, would it be an appropriate reaction to his anti-religious bigotry to boycott all business in his city?
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Actually Joe, you over reacted from your very first post. Taking Jarvis’ words out of context. You and Jennifer elevated the meaning of those words considerably.
So, do you feel gays are a minority and should receive special consideration? Still waiting.
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Pseudo, I like your posts btw.
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Liberals generally overreact. And often they get violent with their words. I have been threatened by two people on this blog.
Pseudo is on the money, and notice how DE avoided his questions. DE avoids my questions as well. I still have yet to get an explanation on why he cares if black people live in Oakwood.
Liberals often pound their fist but rarely ever give clear explanations on their opinions. They are based on emotion. We all know this.
I stated Brian is a defected person. I would not vote for him if I lived in Beavercreek. That is all that needs to be done.
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Putting Mr. Jarvis’ statement in the context of his discussion doesn’t make it any less dehumanizing. Mr. Jarvis’ discussion is that gay people don’t deserve the same protections afforded to other minorities because their minority status is due to an “unfortunate defect” in their genetic makeup. He also compares being gay to being a crack addict. In context such statements give comfort to bigots.
“Venomous and intolerant” are very human reactions so I don’t see anything comparably dehumanizing in Mr. Staiger’s statement. Hate crimes against gay people happen regularly in this country. Church burnings by liberals upset by religious homophobia is not a problem I’m aware of.
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Joe, I think you are over reacting and out of context… … still. Also, where does Jarvis strip your rights? I dont see where you engaged him enough to make that determination before you and JA began threatening his job.
However, you did indicate that you believe homosexuals are a minority. Does this mean you should be afforded special treatment by the government and other communities because of this status? Still waiting. Should you get business perks from WPAFB for being gay?
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@psuedo: Not ALL religious opposition is Venomous and Intolerant , BUT a significant amount of mainstream church doctrine most definitely falls into those categories. My original comment was based on first hand reactions I have heard from people I know who are of religious persuasion. Further, you don’t know me well enough to be characterizing me as a “anti-religious bigot”. If someone chooses to believe in God and religion that is their right, just as Pagans, Witches and astrologists have a right to their beliefs. Keep in mind the definitions of those two words when reviewing information on the links I have provided on this question.
1 : full of venom: as a : poisonous, envenomed b : noxious, pernicious
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters
Roman Catholicism & Homosexuality
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm
The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Baptist denomination in the United States, has issued several resolutions in which it rejects homosexuality as a lifestyle and refers to it as a “manifestation of a depraved nature”, “a perversion of divine standards and as a violation of nature and natural affections” and “an abomination in the eyes of God.”[5] It opposes same-sex marriages and equivalent unions.[6] The Convention has urged churches not to show any approval of homosexuality.[7] The Convention however also holds that “while the Bible condemns such practice as sin, it also teaches forgiveness and transformation, upon repentance, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”[8] It also forbids gays and lesbians to become members, and often members who come out are excommunicated.
excerpted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Baptist_churches
Split among American Baptists over homosexuality is final
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23275
Mormons and Homosexuality
“Homosexuality Is Sin: Next to the crime of murder comes the sin of sexual impurity.” Excerpt from a 2002 Mormon pamphlet.
bullet ”We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly…. We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence.” Ernest Wilkinson, president of Brigham Young University, in a 1965 lecture to the BYU student body, titled: “Make Honor your Standard.” excerpted from :::http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_lds.htm
Those statements clearly fall well within the meaning of Venomous and Intolerant…
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He also compares being gay to being a crack addict. In context such statements give comfort to bigots.
Exactley.
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…and yet a quick glance at DDN’s homicide maps makes it obvious that the vast majority of violent crime is occuring in Dayton’s predominantly Black neighborhoods.
I think this is a phenomenon of recent history. Looking at the crime rates during the early 1930s, the early years of the Depression, there were a lot of felonies on the West Side, but the numbers were balanced by concentrations on the near east side (the Oregon and old Haymarket areas). So felony crime was in both black and poorer white neighborhoods at fairly equal rates (though the highest concetration was in what is todays Wright-Dunbar area). Similar pattern for juvenile deliquency. Maps documenting this can be found here:
http://daytonology.blogspot.com/2009/01/crime-poverty-in-early-depression.html
The rise in crime within the black community really began during the later 1960s, and there is a lot of debate on why this happened within criminology circles. Needless to say this is still a serious social problem.
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Yes, pile on your misinterpretation. Does anyone read? People have a genetic pre-disposition to addiction, and also to same sex attraction, and to dimples. Or is it your contention that people are not born gay, that it is fully by choice. In which case you then make Jarvis’ argument for him.
To take some flair from David Lauri: Oh no the teh bigots are comfortable, run cause the pitchforks are coming out and their is going to be lynchings tonight, run, run ahhhhhh!.
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Mr. Jarvis gives an example of the kinds of people that it is acceptable for his community to not allow to live in that community. He then includes gay people in that group that his community can prohibit from living there because their actions stem from genetic defects. That’s exactly the context and it is dehumanizing to gay people.
When I say that gay people are a minority, I’m saying that they make up less than 50% of the population. Gay people should have the same civil protections that other minorities have that allow them to live in Beavercreek if they choose to even if Beavercreek tries to keep them out (as Mr. Jarvis says is the community’s right). That’s equal treatment not special treatment.
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The comparison of the genetic pre-disposition of gay people to that of crack addicts is only another attempt to demonize gay people. Same sex attraction is not at the root of the numerous social ills that crack addiction is.
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This was Jarvis’ statement
Gay” is like having a propensity similar to an addicit’s to be hooked on crack, alcohol, etc. The genes are already built-in even before the drugs are used (or as you indicated, even before you acted on the feeling).
He was deliberately using negative examples put lesbians and gays at the same level of alcholics and crack addicts, and, by implication, all the social problems addiction leads to. This was negative spin on his part, he was not saying or implying that this genetic variation is something innocuous like being left-handed or having dimples. And this is a fairly common discourse from anti-gay movement, quite familiar to anyone who’s been on-line long enough discussing this issue.
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Oops….Looks like Joe Lacey and I cross-posted.
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Further, you don’t know me well enough to be characterizing me as a “anti-religious bigot”.
No worse than anyone else knew Mr. Jarvis before piling on him for one quote.
I’m glad you picked out the Catholics and the Southern Baptists – the two largest Christian groups in the US. It is true that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is “gravely disordered” and acting on it is a mortal sin, and your quote regarding Baptists is likewise accurate. In light of this, do you (I ask Mr. Staiger, Mr. Lacey, and Ms. Alexander, especially) believe that a person who follows the precepts of the Catholic or Baptist churches can be qualified to hold office- and if not, how can you claim to be anything built guilty of anti-Christian bias and bigotry?
Joe, should I infer by your silence that you stand by your libelous insult of Mr. Vigh?
@ Jeff: interesting find, those maps. Just out of curiousity, do you know what the racial composition of the city was, east versus west, at that time? Also, I’m not certain than forty years constitutes “recent history.”
Again, I’m not denying that socioeconomic factors are to some degree at play here. And yet, that doesn’t excuse the behavior, nor solve it. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be a viable solution other than the Black community itself disapproving of the drug/gang subculture where most of this violence originates, and working with rather than against the police.
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Very simple,
applied to your question means yes, Catholics and Baptist are qualified, so long as they do not operate as if this were a religious Taliban style government.
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I guess I don’t really cut it as an antagonist- Mr. Jarvis has me beat by a long shot.
I really wish you could have your fight on his site-
What was meant to be a post about the misguided focus of the local views of best practices in urban repositioning- have all turned into a “gay” thing. Happy Thanksgiving.
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Happy Thanksgiving to all…I’m done with this discussion.
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@ Joe: He actually gave an example of a Red SUV, but the same principle applies. I actually think he sounds terrible here, but he basically gave empowerment to a community to deprive the rights and choices of the individual without justification. Including, but not limited to gay people. I think most over reacted to the gay aspect of the commentary and the only conclusion they have arrived at is that Brian probably does not have a gay best friend. The fact that his statement jeopardizes freedom should be a little more concerning, but flying the gay pride flag took precedence.
Regarding the context, I still think it is not in sync. Reference Gene’s post on identifying race .vs identifying sexual preference.
@ Jeff: Yes, Brian’s glass would appear to be half empty with drug addicts, while mine is half full with dimples.
I am done too, it came full circle to the freedom part.
Happy TG to all.
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Ok, then DE, why don’t you answer my question that do pertain to this topic, questions regarding “handful of black people in Oakwood.” Why do you care, why does it matter, why don’t they move there, etc. You are the one refusing to answer my questions. Others have proposed questions and comments regarding this topic but you are too busy drinking coffee in front of cameras
Also, why is our President, the liar that most of you folks voted for, taxing us for a war he told us we were done with if elected? Liar liar pants on fire. Your President! Barry, you told us we would pull out. All men say they will pull out – and all men lie
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@Gene- I’ll reply again on “Oakwood”- “Why was Dayton forced to integrate under court order- and no suburban communities were?” Why was it so important for Dayton to integrate- and no one else? Why did the courts get involved? If people want to live in a White City (the title of the article this post started with) or a Black City- why not? I’m actually agreeing with you- in some ways….
I believe diversity is the key to innovation and growth- but apparently, I’m in a minority, esp. here- where the only thing that matters is sexual orientation and your biases towards it.
If there has ever been a thread where I wanted to stop the comments by closing them- this has been it.
Cheers to all.
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Dayton should have never had forced integration. It does not make sense, it never did. You want a walk to work tax credit, meaning people would live somewhat close to where they work. Same should go with schools. You should attend the school in your neighborhood. Oakwood allows all sorts of people to live and go to school in Oakwood. If blacks want that school system then I suggest they move to Oakwood. I think we should keep it simple. Forcing anything, for the most part, is just a bad idea.
Comparing Dayton to these other cities is pointless. We need jobs, better neighborhoods, better schools. Government get in the way of this – allow people to do what they do and stop over taxing and giving free hand outs. Again, making it complicated makes it most unfair. Keep this thread alive! Go Gays!
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I really wish you could have your fight on his site
LOL, I don’t believe that. I think you enjoy the traffic debates bring to your site. Of course you could always go to moderated comments and refuse to post comments that aren’t pertinent to the topic at hand.
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refuse to post comments…………
I would be 86ed then
!!!
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Why do I feel so strongly against Mr. Javis’ comments, to the point that I would publicly state, that I will not spend $ in Beavercreek while he is still an elected official?
I moved to Sugarcreek 5 yrs ago, after living in Kettering for 33 yrs. As a liberal democrat, I am a minority here. I may as well have a tattooed a Scarlet “L” on my forehead & a “kick me” sign on my back. It has been a very eye opening experience. My daughter & I are slapped in the face by others religious beliefs on a weekly basis… at public community events, at school & in our personal home. Just a few examples…
My tires were slashed last fall on my suv in a public parking lot, with a nasty note letting me know they didn’t like my Obama bumper sticker & a list of reasons as to why I will rot in hell.
My daughter has been harassed at school by not only the staff but by classmates, because she participated in the “Day of Silence” showing her support of the LGBT community to raise awareness of equality issues. She has been told to her face by adult male strangers they’d “like to kick her ass” when she’s worn her Obama tee shirt. I can’t imagine the hell she would go through if she were gay.
My daughter was denied her request to watch the Presidents Address to students this past fall (on her own, during study hall, in the library, online w/headphones & with a note from her mother) yet, she was required to stay in study hall & play poker. That same day in English class she was given a homework assignment based on the required reading of “Life of Pi”, the homework sheet required her to not only write an essay about her personal religious beliefs, but her parents as well. With questions like: What religion are you? Why? What religion are your parents? Why? Do you believe in God? Why? Why Not? Do your parents? Then a conversation followed with the students going around the classroom being asked similar questions. I imagine next to her senior picture in the yearbook, her name will be omitted & it will just read “That Liberal Atheist”.
Just 3 weeks ago when she & I waited in line for 5 hrs at the Greene County Fairgrounds to get the H1N1 shot, our line neighbor started yelling at the top of his lungs, that we were “whores” because we were democrats….a 60 yr old man publicly yelling at a 17 yr old girl in tears, that she’s a “whore” because she doesn’t agree with his politics. Who do you think the security guard gave a hard time to?
Separation of Church and State does not seem to have the same meaning in Greene County, with the exception of YS.
Mr. Jarvis’ comments as a community leader evoke & embolden others to treat those in the LGBT community… as people who aren’t equals, who should not be respected or trusted. Just because you may find yourself on the opposite end of the spectrum as someone….does that also mean you loose all empathy & compassion for that human being?
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^
Wow. Just wow. I’m speechless.
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“Oh no the teh bigots are comfortable, run cause the pitchforks are coming out and their is going to be lynchings tonight, run, run ahhhhhh!.” Mr. Vigh appears to now be mocking the legitimate concern about bigots murdering gay people, which is something that just happened in this country as recently as last week. Apparently he thinks he’s entertaining us.
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JA – ahhhh, MOVE. you did it at least once, why not again? When do you want me to hold your hand, when you move or when you drop your kid off at The Greene?
The world is not perfect, YOU THOUGH, as you described above, have choices. I think you should choose something else…… move to San Fran….. exercise your parental rights – MOVE.
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^
I’m thinking of cutting and pasting Jennifers post on some other forums to show how wonderful suburban Dayton is. Get Midwest!
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Hey Gene, you said yr from Louisville. What school did you go to?
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Why should…I…have to alter my life plans? I should just up & move & give up ? I shouldn’t demand that my child be treated as an equal & be protected by both State & Federal Laws that uphold the seperation of church & state in a public school district. Just because the majority of my neighbors have faith in a god & attend church & study the Bible….does not give our school district the right to make their own rules & allow a teacher to inquire about our family’s faith & request students that are already under enough pressure to “fit in” to openly share their personal religious beliefs.
The narrow minded parents that didn’t want their children “exposed to the liberal agenda” got their way with not having the Presidential Address viewed by their children….why isn’t my child just as important? Because I’m different than them? A high school girl is old enough legally, in Ohio, to obtain an abortion without parental consent…yet, she’s not able choose to view the President of her nation give a speech? Why, because of fear & hate in our current political climate. “Adults” at public meetings not being able to control themselves….. have we lost all civility & respect for one another?
Gene the world may not be perfect in my eyes, but that doesn’t mean I should lower my expections in others & myself.
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Sure. Make a community that has been there for a hundred years change because YOU moved into town. JA, get real. YOU MOVED THERE, you can move out. You moved without doing your homework. This world does not revolve around you.
Did any other parent have a problem with this?
There is no separation of church and state in school? Public schools are allowed to teach comparative religion, and asking those question can be a part of the lesson plan. You don’t make the rules.
Why did you not move to Dayton? A liberal, non-worshiping area, well for the most part. Why not Dayton? Would it have to do with your kids education?
This is real easy. Move. You were in Kettering, why did you move from there? You are a typical liberal. Why not take this to the Ohio Supreme Court?
I am not trying to be mean about this – I agree with you on everything. But the fact still remains that you lived in Kettering for 33 years then moved 5 years ago and want an entire community to change because you showed up. I think it would be a lot easier for you to move rather than that community change. You have choices, exercise your right to chose. Don’t make this more complicated that it needs to be.
Lived in Louisville til I was 9. I really don’t know that much about Louisville. Happy Sappy Turkey Gravy
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Joe Lacey,
DL said: Why if you let teh gayz marry, pretty soon all the kidz will be turnin’ gay and then the human race will go extinct.
I was using the same exaggerated flair. I assumed you had read all the posts or had the memory to put that together. You are flying your gay pride flag and elevating your personal concerns. A gay man was killed last week. How many people have been killed between now and then?
To JA: There is no doubt there are plenty of people insensitive to your needs in your neighborhood. But, what is your complaint other than people pick on me and I dont like it? Tip #1, Dont put your daughter in a t-shirt that says: “I support a man that is going to forcibly take away your freedom”, unless you are looking for a reaction. Tip #2. If you want your daughter to watch something during a school day that is not being shown………try using a DVR or skipping school. You also Assume many things, like.presidential addresses are relevant, pertinent and belong in the classroom. In the same breath you complain you admit you would force your own views upon them if you could.
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So, Gene, if a black or Jewish family moved into a Dayton suburb and their house was firebombed, I assume that you’d say that they shouldn’t expect the community to change just for them.
Cro-magnons like you make Dayton the hateful place that it is.
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Actually Rusty, Firebombing is against the law. Whereas What JA complains about is not (except for tire slashing). Good job exaggerating something that Gene did not say and using that to toss him a personal insult. Which by the way was basically what JA was complaining about. ……this is where I would insert some nasty statement about you personally if I chose to follow your example.
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Absolutely unbelievable that you’re defending “Gene” against this. How Daytonian, how insular, how “just go to hell if you don’t fit in.” You and Gene are as much idiots as the welfare clowns braying during the run up to the last presidential election that Obama was going to buy their groceries and pay their rent.
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@Robert Vigh//I thought I was done with this thread but reading your stupid and ignorant comments brings me back, to add you to my Troll list. You are a worse ‘agent provocateur’ than Gene, which is hard to fathom.
Your comments to JA are so insensitive as to beg the question of your humanity. You think it is ok for “citizens” to curse a high school kid for wearing a t-shirt that has a slogan they don’t like? Why? Whatever happened to tolerance? AND There IS a separation between church and state. Thomas Jefferson saw this, why don’t you? [http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html ]
Have you ever read the 1st Amendment to the constitution???.
One last note, Rusty, I think characterizing Gene and Robert Vigh as Cro Magonn;s is an insult to the intelligence of the Cro-Man.
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Well Gary, if you are going to insult me I may as well insult you. At least I don’t live off the government. JA has the choice to abort, which you folks support. She also has the right to move. Grow TF up.
She is exaggerating anyway. She want The Greene to change for her. Typical liberals crying at every moment.
She has choices. I suggest she exercises those choice. AND BTW dumb asses, I agreed with her on everything up to the point where I know she has the opportunity to leave. She chooses not to.
Gary you re-started it – I fired back. YOU ARE ON MY TROLL LIST.
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Well, Gene since you want to take this to a personal level & on Thanksgiving & accuse me of exaggerating…..open invitation to my home anytime you would like. I’m not pulling my child out of school in the middle of her senior year, nor could I sell my $250,000 home overnight & even if I could find a buyer, I’m too damn sick from my chemo meds & extended release morphine at the moment to hardly even get through the grocery store without vomitting…so I don’t think I’ll be house hunting anytime soon
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Rusty, to clarify, since you have not read all of the posts, I think the JA had options and should have moved to a more liberal area. Gary said these people are not tolerant, well I think liberals are not tolerant of conservative thought. Gary throws out insults, as did you Rusty. Not very tolerant there are you boyz……
I do not advocate teaching religion in school, but they do this to some degree. Would not be my choice, but they do have comparative religion classes, among others. History classes can often tie in religion as well. JA really was not specific on the situation, and for the record I am against it. I am for a separation of church and state, however it is not law, or at least 100% law. Therefore I TOLERATE teaching of religion bc I think a community has the right to teach what they believe is important. Heck, there is so much liberal teachings anymore it is a wonder why you folks don’t look in the mirror. It is a two way street.
I think people making fun of you is just a part of life. It has happened to all of us. And if it is not violent then it is not illegal. I certainly don’t not advocate firebombing in any form.
Most of you voted for a president that said he would end the war, now he is planning on extending it. I am against that ( a liberal view.) Wake up and smell the coffee.
JA wanted The Greene to change for her and Bellbrook to change for her. I suggest dropping your daughter off at a safer place, boycott The Greene, move to Dayton ( a more liberal place, a place where I live and tolerate crime and liberal thought and all sorts of religions.)
People always want to change the world but never want to change themselves. This is easy – if a criminal act was committed report it as a crime. If people are just making fun of you, fire back. If that is too much avoid them. If that is too hard to do then move. If the school system went beyond a “normal” lesson plan I suggest JA go to the school board and the state to deliver her disapproval.
I would really love to know what happened in the classroom. But she could be exaggerating because she is against religion. Who knows?
Rusty, I don’t think you have a clue to who I am. I am just sick of cry babies though. We are adults, we have choices. I suggest exercising your right to choose.
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OK, JA, you MAY have been exaggerating. That is not the worst thing in the world. People do it all the time, especially if you are polar opposite to something. Even so, besides the tire, ignore these people. Call the police. Well, did you call the police? BC if it was so bad you should have call the police.
I am not insulting you JA, just saying you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. But then again I have seen some big old moles this past year, so you never know…..
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I’m a pretty tough woman, that can hold her own, my partner (male) is a very conservative republican …my complaints are not about “teasing” & my list of complaints was only brought up as a comparison. If simply being a member of the minority political party in Greene County has caused such grief for my myself & my daughter & I’m not a very vocal cheerleader for my party in most public settings….I can only have hearfelt concern for someone within the LGBT community here & when I read that a community leader suggested & compared a gay man to nothing better than a drug addict…I will cry foul…and as loud as I can!
Next time you go hang out at your favorite “meat market” & drink, walk over to Books& Co & pick up the “Life of Pi” the cover states it all…”you will believe in God after reading this book”…I am a firm supporter of giving students a well rounded education that includes the history of religion & the role that religion has had on history…..but this education should not include an exploration of a students faith or their familys faith. Even though I consider myself an atheist, I take my daughter to visit many different church communities & of different faiths…as I want her to find her own personal beliefs, rather than just being told as a young child…”this is what faith our family is & so you will be also”
I did make a formal complaint with the school administration & they didn’t even respond…I dropped the issue at that point…as I figured it would only hurt my daughter to go any further with the conversation.
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@Robert Vigh: My comment about the human race going extinct if gay marriage were allowed was meant in part to mock your attempt to defend Brian Jarvis’s calling homosexuality a defect and in part an ironic allusion to actual arguments made by some opponents of same sex marriage.
The opponents of same sex marriage who used that line of argument were oblivious to the fact that gay people do in fact have children, either through heterosexual sex or, in modern times, through in vitro fertilization.
Your contention that the continuation of the human race required heterosexuality and that homosexuality must then be a defect is flawed reasoning. Perhaps one reason the human race was able to flourish was that homosexual relatives brought additional resources to ensure the continuation of the human race. For example, in hunting/gathering times, if daddy dies but mommy has a gay brother who can go out and hunt, then the kids would be less likely to starve. Homosexuality, given its prevalence and long history, could be part of the Divine plan if you’re into omnipotent Creators planning every detail or it could be part of evolution if you’re into the idea that genes that help the next generation survive tend to stick around.
Defend Brian Jarvis’s calling homosexuality a genetic defect if you want, but do try to do a better job of it.
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“A gay man was killed last week. How many people have been killed between now and then?” Only one was killed because of attitudes toward gay people like Mr. Jarvis’, that gay people are somehow less than human. Defending that notion contributes to the problem. Mr. Vigh’s question suggests that the murder of gay people because of their orientation is of little concern because it doesn’t happen often enough. The fact that more people are murdered for money than are murdered in hate crimes does not justify attempts to dehumanize gay people.
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Gary Staiger,
I do not know what a troll list is, please enlighten me. Here is the 1st amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.V
So, pertinent to JA’s situation, how does this apply?
Getting picked on is a part of life, period. If I lived in a liberal neighborhood, I would expect heightened friction if I wore an “Obama Sucks” t-shirt. Gary, please indicate to me where I say I condone people yelling at high schoolers. That is not my thing, but I am not going to pretend the world is perfect and wearing a controversial garment is not going to attract attention. You are also very clever with your cro-magnum man comment, I really felt that one. Please let me know if you have anything to post with substance.
@DL, I was well aware that you were mocking me. It was exaggerated flair used as sarcasm and I understood it and thought it was funny. I adopted the same style, but in a view held in opposition.
@DL and JL. The point of all the posts, taken as a whole was a path. I wish I did not have to point it out. Jarvis is a jerk for saying that a community should be able to deprive the sovereignty of the individual. That possibly a simple majority gets to force its beliefs on the minority. The defense of his homophobia was not the strongest defense, but it got Joe to arrive at the removal of freedom for Homosexuals. But go back and read it. It is the removal of freedom for anyone………………My point if you completely missed it, is that I think Jarvis is dead wrong. I simply do so on the basis of his entire underlying philosophy as opposed to just picking on gays. Furthermore, every time a law is passed that says killing anyone other than straight whitey is worse than killing straight whitey………..well, that is society at large saying killing straight whitey is not as bad. So…………..holding your hands again, MURDER is wrong. Kill Gay David, Kill Straight Robert…………either way, you ass is in the sling. Why would I encourage a law that dehumanizes the murdering of my demographic by elevating the importance of all surrounding demographics?
@ Rusty: You read something out of context, embellished the negative on something you dont understand, threw in an insult and decided you had substance. You and Gary must share a computer. <— That is so much better than …..huh huh uh, dont insult cro-man huh huh.
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By this argument a racist taunt could be construed to be “just making fun of you” The person doing the taunting is a physically larger Male than you so you can’t fire back or you risk a beating. Since “firing back” is not an option your other option is to move.
That’s wrong.
These are exactly the kinds of situations the 1965 Civil Right set out to correct. Discrimination by race is intolerable. Discrimination by gender has been added as has age discrimination. Sexual orientation is on the agenda but a far from settled question, although I personally fully support equal social rights fo the LGTB community.
Discrimination is a natural part of life, we make discriminating choices everyday, over what to wear, what to eat, what we will do that day. Discrimination becomes negative is when it infringes on the rights of others. I believe that is the heart of JA’s complaint about Beavercreek. And she is correct in demanding that those attitudes change because it is those attitudes that are intolerant, not her liberal leanings. Tolerance has to work both sides of the fence.
According to your own statement Gene, you exhibit tolerance, which is not the same as acceptance, by living in Dayton amongst us sorry “liberal irreligious tree huggers”. Bravo for you, but guess what? I live next door to an old preacher and even tho I’m not religious, Dick and I get along just fine, as I do with the large Catholic family across the street and the Baptists on the corner.
Tolerance working both sides of the fence.
I don’t think JA is asking for much more than that despite the straw dogs set on fire about forcing all the racist, sexist and homophobic citizens of Beavercreek being forced to change PERSONAL beliefs. That was never on the table.
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Political differences and racial slurs are two different things. Most adults understand this. There are TWO major political parties, and a lot of people side with one or another. Therefore you will always have some of disagreement. Just like if one Steelers fan moved into a neighborhood with a bunch of Browns fans, we can expect some friction. She is discriminated by Political affiliations, if you call taunting discrimination. She was not denied a home or work bc of this.
She could fire back. And if a crime were committed then I would suggest that those criminals be prosecuted. But taunting is not really a crime, now is it.
I tolerate a lot. I accept a lot, if not most things in life. I do not accept crime, but I tolerate it. JA moved to Bellbrook (or Beavercreek, can’t remember at this point) and has had a run in with “neighbors” and “the school.” But how often does this happen? Not all people are going to get along, and friction once in a while is par for the course with anyone living anywhere. That is a part of life. I have never, though, had any problems with any of my neighbors, or well maybe when I was a kid. I just ignore and accept. If the did something criminal then I would have a problem, especially if it was targeted at me.
Comparing this to the Civil Rights Issues of the 1960s really diminishes what was accomplished then. This is nothing but a few people not getting along. That happens everywhere. People (liberals) love to make Mountains (like the Rockies) out of mole hills.
She has a male partner, why does he not stick up for her? Maybe bc she is setting her own fires….
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No, it isn’t, except when those taunts rise to the level of negative discrimination through the use of racial/sexist/homophobic language/slurs. All of which I will grant ahead of time presents a slippery slope between determining what is discrimination resulting in harm to the person discriminated against and what is merely offensive behavior. There is a LOT of case law on this…
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and, BTW, Gene,
many people would consider that a very sexist comment. Intolerant as it were.
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GARY,
You are the one that said:
The person doing the taunting is a physically larger Male than you so you can’t fire back or you risk a beating. Since “firing back” is not an option your other option is to move.
I was going where you were taking it…….. maybe she did Set her own fire.
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Gary,
Your substance is better, your reading still needs some improvement. Ill take it from your silence, you could not figure out how the first amendment was violated in JA’s circumstances.
Gene’s full quote: This is easy – if a criminal act was committed report it as a crime. If people are just making fun of you, fire back. If that is too much avoid them. If that is too hard to do then move.
Meaning the larger male cannot attack without breaking the law. You cut/pasted what you wanted instead of the entire context.
Per your post Gary, what rights of hers were violated? By what right does she to demand others change their attitudes? How is tolerance both sides of the fence if you declare her as correct, period? You contradict yourself.
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There is no disagreement about reporting an act that is a crime to the proper authorities. There are many times when that is simply not enough. An extreme case is that of the city of Grenada Mississippi, where racial discrimination was so pervasive that it took Freedom Marchers and Dr Marlin Luther King’s involvement to bring about and end to segregation in the late 60’s.
Unfortunately, American history is replete with examples like this. I wonder, Gene & Robert, what you would have said to Rosa Parks when she refused to give up her seat on that bus in Montgomery,Alabama…”if you don’t like the way people are treating you on this bus, you should walk??”
Definitely not the right answer
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That was raced based. Our situation here is a person getting verbally taunted for being a liberal. That is not that bad – you people elected a liar. He said he would end the war, he is extending it. He wants to tax us to death. He wants to take away people’s choices. The Republicans are not any better, btw.
Heck, from Glenn Beck to Sean Hannity to Billo -*-*-*- to Keith Olberman to Bill Maher to Gary Staiger
you have an on going Right vs Left throwing verbal punches. It is all over TV and the Internet. She acted as if she has never heard of one side belittle and criticize the other side. Well, it is all over TV and the Internet. It is nothing new.
The problem here is that people (especially liberals) are always “outraged.” Well, fine, if it pertained to actual discrimination. But this situation is the same in every sports bar over any given weekend, but it politics and not sports. I think being a democrat is certainly enough to be made fun of. As long as it does not go over the line (ie criminal.) Gary, comparing this to real discrimination is setting that movement back 50 years. According to you every time someone does something that you don’t like it can be viewed as discrimination. Well, some of us act like adults and move on. I would not give this situation the time of day if it happened to me. I would laugh it off. But she was “offended.” Oh dear, where does that end?
Rosa did the right thing, basically saying “kiss my ass I will sit where I want.” JA situation is in no way comparable. This is not apples and oranges, rather apples and snowflakes.
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I would have sided with her. I would have sided in the prosecution of the murderers enacting lynchings. I find it hard to believe I would have lived at that time without being really pissed off at the lack of liberty for people.
Gary, have you not read my posts. Everything I say revolves around freedom. Freedom for gays, freedom for blacks and freedom for jerk off’s who want to believe what they want to. You cannot FORCE someone to think differently. You cannot enact thought police.
Furthermore, what are you comparing to Rosa Parks? JA’s being called a whore by a white republican .vs mandated civil law which persecuted and jailed black people for wanting equal status? Seriously, get a grip. Just because I choose to point out what looks like embellishment and has the opportunity to go to far and take rights away from another group does not make me a racist. Which, you seem intent on trying to submit. What historical scenario would you like to type out and assume which way I would respond to next?
I am on the side of freedom. I am not on the side of lets make laws and tell people how to live because somebody’s feelings got hurt.
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I enjoy a great political debate & hold more respect for someone that can communicate their beliefs & holds them firm vs. the apathetic without a clue or care. Like I stated before, I’ve gone to sleep every night for over 10 yrs with someone on the opposite end of the political spectrum….do we fight like hell sometimes over politics in the privacy of our own home, yes. Would either of us take that intense level of debate outside of our home & into the face of a stranger with hateful angry words or actions, no. So, I think I’m well equipped & experienced with being able to have a healthy relationship with someone, I just don’t agree with politically & still have respect for them.
I can drive by citizens on a corner, holding support signs for a candidate or issue that are in opposition of my own & while I might be aggravated…I am also very respectful of their beliefs & the effort they are putting forth with excising their rights. I would never roll down my window or stop to insult them. I would never go find their cars with thoughts of vandalism. I would never, absolutely never approach their children & curse at them. Yet, I have found myself & my daughter being confronted for our differences, with obscene & hateful words & actions…in situations & conversations where we have nothing more than mentioned that we were democrats.
I was raised with grace & with respect & try my very best to conduct myself in respectable manner. While living the majority of my life in Montgomery County, I obviously interacted with those of opposing political beliefs & and of many different faiths. As we all do, rather it be in the work place or even in our own families. I was also much more active with the democratic party & much more vocal with my beliefs in Montgomery County than I am in Greene County. So I was much more on the radar & taunting my liberal pride flag back then. I sincerely do not ever remember being in a situation where a political debate or difference in opinion, in either public or private, ever escalated beyond raised voices. Nothing in comparison to what I feel I encounter now that I live in Greene County.
Might I possibly be more sensitive & aware that I am the minority here & I’m more observant & aware of how those around me are reacting to me? Maybe, yet ever so slightly.
Might the difference be that as a whole, our national political climate itself seems to have escalated with heightened emotions?
Or are members of the conservative right in Greene County much more aggressive with a mob mentality? Has it always been so aggressive & in-your-face with intolerance to outsiders of the club?
Or is this something new? Does having a black man in the White House have anything to do with the heightened emotions out here in the rural suburbs? Are the kids out here being groomed, because of the lack of diversity in their lives & the adults heightened political anger….to not be able to think outside of the box?
Or,have I just experienced the perfect storm of all of the above combined?
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my intent with the example of Grenada Miss.in using it as an extreme case, was to illustrate how there are times when a mere complaint to authorities is not enough, that it can take larger response to solve the problem.
In JA’s situation I would first want to determine that this wasn’t just happening to one person, JA, and if it was wider spread and vested authority was not willing to address the problem then other remedies might be sought. In the situation at hand with JA it is the people who were taunting her were the intolerant ones. Why should she have to tolerate intolerance just because someone says it in a “sports” bar.
And Gene, please note that I was very clear about the “slippery slope” that is attached to any charge of discrimination.
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Ok this is getting silly. JA is not the only democrat in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek. There were many Obama signs in my neighborhood in Bellbrook and they were not stolen, vandalized, or otherwise messed with. My daughter is in the same graduating class as JA’s daughter, so I asked her if her daughter was getting harassed at school. She told me that some football players has made some comments to her during the Day of Silence, but not any other students or teachers. She added that she and her friends thought that the football players were acting like idiots. As for the Obama speech, she said that study hall teacher doesn’t let the kids out of class to do anything and that she didn’t think that it was political. I can’t really comment on the book read in her English class because my daughter isn’t in that class and had a different reading list. I’m curious – how did the man in the line for the flu shot know that JA and her daughter were Democrats?
Btw my car was also vandalized (keyed) in Sugarcreek Twp for conservative stickers that were on it during the 2004 elections.
Just had to stick up fo Bellbrook and Sugarcreek. We’re not all a bunch of intolerant thugs!
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Lisa, I never stated that I was the only dem in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek, just a member of the minority. Nor did I ever use the word “thug”. Nor, have I stated that EVERY republican, is insensitive & abrasive to those with opposing views. Political signs of all parties are stolen on a regular basis,unfortunate, yet no big deal.
What may be “silly” to you, isn’t to me or my family. As I would never claim to understand what affects your child’s emotional & educational well being.
Nor, have I even posted the worst of my concerns, since this is a public forum, with a child involved. For you to question your daughter about how MY daughter is treated, really adds nothing to the conversation, in my opinion. Unless, your daughter walks in my child’s shoes & is privy to every aspect of her daily school experience. Your daughter has no inside information to every conversation that my child has with classmates or teachers. As you also don’t have any idea of what conversations & interactions, that I, as her parent, have had with teachers, administration & other parents.
Therefore, you can only make comment on your own daughter’s experience within this school district & your own as a parent. With that, I am very interested & open to conversing how parents of different political beliefs look at the same school district
Study hall & the Presidential Address…your daughter is wrong with that, the kids are allowed to leave every day, for a variety of reasons, tuturing, clubs, make-up test, whatever, as long as they have note from another teacher, giving them permission to leave…& she did have a note from the school librarian.
H1N1 line neighbor, how did he know we were democrats…..because he told us that it was ”President Obama’s fault that we were having to wait in line for 5 hours to get a shot & that the President himself should be shot” (and he didn’t mean with a vaccine) I told the man, in as a polite & mild mannered as I could, “well, I disagree with you, I support the President & would prefer you not talking about shooting anyone in front of my child”.
May I ask you, when your car was “keyed” how do you know that it was because of conservative bumper stickers? Were you left a note? Did it include a “Top Ten Reasons Your GOP Ass Will Rot In Hell List”?
May I also ask your last name, since you didn’t post using it. Not that, I, would open this adult conversation/debate to my daughter.
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Mr. Vigh says “Furthermore, every time a law is passed that says killing anyone other than straight whitey is worse than killing straight whitey………..well, that is society at large saying killing straight whitey is not as bad.”
Hate crime statutes are written to add penalties to bias motivated crimes against people because of their race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. If someone kills “straight whitey” because he is white or because he is heterosexual then that triggers the increased penalties of the hate crime statute. Hate crimes laws are not written to give harsher punishment to the murder of minorities as Mr. Vigh says.
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Joe, you are correct.
I guess I see the hate part as redundant to murder. So, your correction stands and I will think on the redundancy into the future. Lets agree to disagree at this point. There was alot of posts and really all I wanted to get at was I thought Jarvis was wrong, for reasons that included Gays, but was not limited to them. Sorry for the initial misdirection.
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I used the word thug because people who key cars/ slash tires/ confront teenage girls are thugs, and if that man in line keeps running his mouth like that he is going to get a visit from the Secret Service. My point is that most people in Bellbrook/Sugarcreek aren’t like that. I do apologize for using the word silly though.
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BTW the reason I did not and will not use my last name is that I didn’t want to post about my daughter in a personally identifiable way. I actually ran across your post and a link to this thread on citydata which is read by people from all over the country.
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Thank you Lisa. I knew I was right the whole time. JA exaggerated and was “outraged” over minor stuff. You see folks it is my years of diligent study of liberals that allows me to know when the complaints have merit or when the complaints are just a little too sensitive. It is this insight that I provide to all of you. You can all thank me later. These “stories” were a little too convenient for liberals to rally around. And yes, after Lisa brought this up, I now remember a LOT of Obama signs in “Republican” areas…… In fact, I stated that I saw so many Obama signs in conservative areas that I knew Obama would win (that was my reason, signs in the likes of Oakwood.) That was never the case in past years. You rarely would see Clinton or Gore or Kerry signs. JA was just too sensitive. Thank you again Lisa. And yes, liberal readers, I was stereotyping a liberal. A liberal is one who often blows up or makes things up to make the world seem bad and hateful. My experience is that most liberals are simply “outraged” for the sake of being dramatic. If you need my insight again, please ask. Thank you.
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@Gene,
I gotta admire someone who has as much hubris as you do. You are truly “special”.
LOL
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Gene your so wrong. I don’t even think this “Lisa” exist & even if she does & if her daughter is as all knowing about MY daughter as Lisa thinks she is…….she would know why my daughter left her regular lunch table this past week. She would know which regular teacher sub is friends w/ most of the students on FaceBook & post remarks (harassing) about the students “religion” & told my daughter “she didn’t like her religion” & has fought w/ several other students about religion.
She would know the name of the math teacher my daughter had that during my parent teacher conference with her, that couldn’t give her any extra help during study hall, yet offered me to have my daughter join her Prayer Group & and we could all pray for a better grade.
Even if Lisa is real & lives here & her daughter was MY daughter’s best friend….she still wouldn’t know half of what we’ve put up with here & have just dealt with & kept our mouths shut about to avoid anymore conflict for her…..I know that my biggest regret as a parent will always be having moved here. I tell my family I moved 4 miles down the road & 40 yrs back to Appalachia. We never the first time, ever encountered a situation in the Kettering schools that we felt as if religion was ever more than a personal family issue.
Would also imagine if we had stayed in the Kettering schools my daughter would have been taught about the Civil War…as her teacher skipped over those chapters here in Bellbrook, when I asked the teacher why “because the Civil War isn’t hardly touched on in the Ohio Graduation Test”.
@Gene & Robert
http://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/joint-statement-current-law-religion-public-schools
“teachers may not require students to modify, include or excise religious views in their assignments”
Let us also not forget how Sugarcreek & the loving nonjudgemental Christians here made national news, not to long ago http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/10/dayton-islamophobic-hate-crime-hoax-police-report-victim-blamed-black-males.html
”The answer may be that the Islamic Society of Greater Dayton is moving its mosque to the distant and white suburbs of Sugarcreek Township — a plan approved just days before the alleged incident, as this pre-incident Dayton Daily News article records. Whoever was behind this hate crime hoax may have calculated that any resistance to the mosque in Sugarcreek Township might be weakened by the proposition that Muslims were being threatened by black males in the mosque’s present location. ”
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=45798
“We just feel that Christianity is right and that Islam is wrong,” Jude told the Daily News. “Therefore, we take a stand to see (a mosque) not in our community.”
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Thank you Gary. It is hard work keeping up with a group that complains all the time. A typical liberal, although well intentioned, brings up minor and little known stories to make their points. That is certainly fine, but they almost always are exaggerated stories. A typical liberal, who generally means well, is “outraged” over situations that are not important, minor or just are not worth bringing up.
Over there years I have study the liberal thought process, a process that involves huge assumptions and leaping to conclusions. All this time I knew JA was making a mountain out of a mole hill, a liberal specialty. Liberals love to play the victim card, I called her out on it and Lisa backed up my assumptions. Again, my assumptions were based on years and years of studying the “outraged” liberal.
I love to stereotype liberals. It is easier that way. You can mock me, but I am 100% right. Thank you. Where should I send the bill Gary? You have learned so much from me I might as well charge you.
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2001 N main st
Dayton, Oh, 45405
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I have to thank Brian Jarvis for being a man of conviction, willing to meet me for lunch to talk about his words. Unfortunately, I also have to say that I came away from our conversation with less understanding than I’d hoped for: http://www.davidlauri.com/blog/2009-11#2009-11-28
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thanks for backing me up. She was not taught religion, rather about religion maybe. You are making this easy for me JA. Gary, what is a fair price for my advise. $100.00? Let me know and I will send you an invoice.
Teaching About Religion
5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said, “[i]t might well be said that one’s education is not complete without a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization.” It would be difficult to teach art, music, literature and most social studies without considering religious influences.
The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature (either as a separate course or within some other existing course), are all permissible public school subjects.
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@david L.
Your blog post is a great send up of Brian Jarvis.
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@Gene….again….the Final Grade Essay for the entire 9 weeks after reading this book…required students to reflect not on the book but on their own personal & family religious beliefs…if they have in God? Do your parents have faith in God? What faith are you & your parents? It is against the law to require a student to share their own beliefs.
You or Robert earlier asked why I don’t remove her from the school district if I don’t like them questioning my or my child’s faith….shouldn’t it be the other way around…if a parent wants their child to taught about faith…that they remove their child & send them to Alter or Xenia Christian…private schools not public that are state & federally funded
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Actually, JA, you are wrong. They had a final essay and only one person had a problem with it – you. I guess I should just come out and say it – you are making stuff up.
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