So now, they start working on a plan for the local economy?

The fact that they are doing it behind closed doors doesn’t even bother me anymore. I’m used to violations of the “sunshine laws” in Dayton. The real question is, how come they haven’t had a plan- and have been actively working it?

City, county and state officials met Tuesday, June 16, to devise a plan to grow the region’s economy by focusing on aerospace, sensors and composites — areas with potential to produce NCR-caliber companies.

The closed meeting at City Hall was led by Lisa Patt-McDaniel, acting director of the Ohio Department of Development.

via Officials meet about drawing NCR-like companies to Dayton.

And, what exactly is a “NCR caliber company.” Are we talking NCR of old, because if we are looking for the corporation as a benevolent contributor to social causes, those days are over. If we’re looking for the NCR of today- a cutthroat company hell bent on milking the government for tax breaks because it is “big”- who needs them?

Why is there such a focus on jobs? If I ran a restaurant, constantly looking for new customers without concentrating on the quality of my fare or the delivery of service, I might be able to fool enough people to come once (especially if I pay them to come), but I won’t get any repeat business nor turn a profit.

Our government leaders have totally neglected the idea of investing in the quality of product and the delivery of their services, and that’s why they are in the position they find themselves in today.

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Civil Servants are People, TooDavid LauriBradGreg HunterJoe Recent comment authors
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blubber blog
blubber blog

What’s next – – a regional makrketing plan? – 
Something like …
Let’s Get Midwest???????

Nathan Driver


Mike Bock

David, as I wrote, in the advice I give to you and Gary Leitzell here, in my thinking, the idea of democracy should be the idea that frames the question of how Dayton, or any community, can improve.  You make an observation — “Our government leaders have totally neglected the idea of investing in the quality of product and the delivery of their services” — that, brings up the observation that, the reason there is massive incompetence in the running of government at virtually all levels, is, in a monopoly, administrators can pretty much do as they please.  They are accountable to a very small oligarchy.  Our democracy is very weak, and in order to meet the challenges we face, vitalizing our democracy, it seems to me, must be the first step.  I think you could win votes by showing how.


For crying out loud – another CLOSED DOOR MEETING?  Seriously?  Are you kidding me?  Like that has worked sooooo well for us.  Doing the same thing, the same way with the same people and expecting a different outcome is called insanity.  I’m ready to spontaneously combust here. If we could focus on making the region attractive and vibrant on many different fronts, we wouldn’t have to prostitute ourselves to get companies to move here.   I’m tired of seeing my kids and their peers go to Indy, Cinci or Columbus on the weekends and spend their hard earned dollars stimulating their economies instead of ours.  The Greene is too fake and overpriced, the Oregon District is too small and dated, but at least it’s cheaper.   We need to give them more options HERE. And that starts with supporting locally owned businesses of all types.  Marketing 101:  It’s cheaper to grow an existing client than it is to find a new one.  If we have to offer the tax incentive game, then give it to locally owned business first, then companies who have been here for a while but may not be local.  The last on the list should be companies that have no ties to Dayton.  If nothing else, give them a rebate AFTER they’ve been here a while and have actually created the jobs they promised to create.  We have to take a different look at where money is spent and based on a presentation I saw at City Hall last Friday, it appears they are finally starting to understand that using public dollars to make aesthetic improvements provides a positive return on investment with increased property values.   The community however needs to come to terms with this because often you hear “why on earth are they spending money on landscaping when we need more police?” It needs to be both.  We can have the most beautiful city in the world but if it’s not safe, no one will move here.  The same is true if we had the safest city in the world, but it’s butt ugly.  The community… Read more »


“The Greene is too fake”

Yes, the fake buildings with fake people with fake money buying fake clothes and fake food and fake beverages while employing fake people in the fake retail and fake restaurant businesses not to mention the fake developers and fake plumbers and fake drywallers and fake electricians and fake carpenters that built the fake Greene. Fake apartments with fake movie theaters and fake grass have hurt the REAL DAYTON OHIO!

Once you get TF over the fact that NEW is BETTER to MOST PEOPLE then you will start to GD understand how this GD world works. It is this GD attitude that is made Dayton so GD progressive.

Enjoy the Real Dayton Ohio with all it failures. I will enjoy the Fake Greene with REAL SUCCESS!

Native Daytonians are losers – get your heads out of your asses and wake up to reality folks. 

5/3 Field is sooooooooooo real while the Greene is soooooooo fake. Get real. 


Enough with the crying over the suburbs. People in Dayton need to go to other cities and see how the handle the same situation rather than crying about it.


Gene – you’re missing the point – this is NOT urban VS suburban.  I recognize that the Greene has been somewhat successful.  I say somewhat because if it was truly successful IMHO it would have brought in much more new retail to the area  instead of just shifting what we already had and creating vacancies elsewhere. I say fake because it does have a Hollywood Movie Set feel to it, it is not a real downtown which is what it strives to mimic.  And I’m using the description I hear from my kids and others.  In fact, I’ve got a couple moving FROM the Greene to South Park because they want a “REAL” urban experience, not a sanitized one.   Some people prefer the national chains of the quasi downtown of the Greene, while some people want the authentic, real thing.  The point is that we if do all the right things – BOTH will thrive and there will be room for more.  But you do make one very good point and that is NEW.  People always rush to the NEW restaurant, store, bar, whatever until something else NEW comes along.   My kids and other recent college grads go to Indy, Columbus & Cincy in part because of the novelty, but mostly because everything is clustered together like at the Greene.    If the bars in the O/D would just close down, remodel, paint and reopen with something that differentiates them from the bar next door – they’d be thriving.  The bars there are as worn and tired as their owners. Downtown has pockets of good things going on, but the space & corridors between is empty.  It gives people the sense that they need to drive from spot to spot and then parking does become an issue.   It’s also a quantity issue – when you feel like you can go to many places and only have to park the car once, you’re more forgiving of the distance you have to walk from your car.  Just like the Greene – I hear people whine all the time about how far it is… Read more »


The Greene is part of the Homogenization of American. There is a “Greene” in every large-ish city now. You can drive across the country and shop and eat in identical establishments where ever you go. You don’t have to ever darken the door of an independent establishment. 

Give me CoCo’s over BD’s Mongolian BBQ any day. 

The idea for a closed door meeting for this kind of topic is ridiculous, not to mention illegal. Sunshine laws only allow for closed door meetings when discussing the performance review of an employee, and then it’s done for the employee’s privacy. If the employee wishes for it to be a public meeting, it must be one. If the DDN wasn’t such a sorry rag, they would have Freedom of Information lawyers (whose services are generally pro-bono) working on this. 

But it’s such a stupid notion anyway, since clearly they need some new ideas in those stuffy rooms. 

Taking it you know where from another company like NCR is not going to save Dayton. This reminds me of someone begging their lover not to leave, losing all dignity and self-respect in the process. 


Why is there such a focus on jobs?

For me, why is there such a focus on jobs, at this time.

Maybe its because its white collar corporate executive jobs that are being lost?

The belated interest in the subject of “jobs” is laughably late in the game. 

This metro area has had zero net job growth in the 00’s.  Jobs lost during the 2001 recession were never recovered.  Living wage employment in the manufacturing sector cratered during this decade…manufacturing employment not only never recovered but continued to decline all through the decade before crashing in 2008.  Construction followed.

About the only sectors in the economy that did see job creation was the profession/scientific and the medical/social services sector, and these were just enough to offset job losses in other parts of the local economy…just enough to create a plateau. 

So, yeah, jobs are an issue, especially if you lost one or are looking for one.  But I don’t think anyone has a clue on how to really address this.


Maybe this site could have a job postings link.

Or let people post jobs on this site directly – and let other post their resumes. 94843 people looking for jobs in Dayton, 17 job openings. Maybe things will get better.


OK, now that I’ve had time to breathe and calm down, I’m thinking of how would I have approached this if I were in charge.  I think I would have started out with an announcement ahead of the meeting that said:

“Many of us were blindsighted by NCR’s announcement and know things have to change.  Each of the participants has heard from many in the community; but, at this point, we need to sit down and discuss what those of us charged with economic development did or did not do.  We know and appreciate that the community has a lot of input and we are welcome to hearing from youdown the line, but we need to take this one step at a time.   First we need to figure out what part of the system failed, then we can take input on how to do things right in the future.”

So you admit there is a problem with the current system, that you are trying to address it in a limited session, and put it out there that ultimately the community will be engaged.  Contrast that with the community finding out about yet another closed door meeting with the same old cast and how many of us responded to that news.

I used to tell my kids and my staff the same thing – if you discover there is a problem or you know you did something wrong, be proactive and tell me or the customer about it before we find out on our own.  You never want to be reactive because you give them the chance to rehearse their speech and stew on things – and then it just gets ugly.

Anyway, I’m not Queen for the Day so none of this probably matters anyway.


David – I’m not ragging on the Oregon District – I’m down there for coffee, drinks or dinner at least once a week if not more.   I’m sharing the perspective of my 22 and 24 year old kids and their friends.    From my perspective, the ones that I go into look pretty much the same – they all have exposed brick, exposed HVAC vents, wood floors.  They mostly offer the same beers.   Some more than others are just looking a little rode hard and put away wet. 

The reorganization and repaving of the parking lot at the end is the best investment made in the O/D in recent history.   It eliminates a lot of the parking issues.  Many of the things you don’ t like were voted on by the people that LIVE there, not all are City ordinances or zoning issues. 

Speaking of prostituting, I just have this visual of different communities lined up like a bunch of skanky ho’s on the corner fighting over the same John.  In the meantime, the gorgeous woman walking is getting all the attention by the well dressed man – and she isn’t charging a thing! 

Dayton needs to stop acting like a skanky ho and doll herself up a bit. It’s time for a make over – the new do and outfit will only take us so far, we still have to have substance underneath it all.   Then we’ll have businesses fighting over the right to call us home.  


OD needs to be taken over by people who are interested in making people happy and making money – like The Greene. Porno shops and local art are hardly the reason why people flock to an area.

Being successful means businesses need to cater to what people want – clean, safe, fun places, that have good food and good drink. Thai 9 is that. Blind Bobs is that. Porno shop and tacky clothing stores and little used bookstores are not that. This is not NYC or CHI. It is Dayton. That means it needs to have a clear vision, not a situation where anything and everything is acceptable. Sorry, some of those store front bring down the rest of the OD. We all know it.

Suburbanites would participate if they felt safe and offered things MOST people want. A few urban dwellers, bums and just plain dirty butts do not make a great client base. Innovative and hip, whatever the hell that is, sells. And some basic stores like a Borders Books and a TGI Fridays could anchor an area and then allow local businesses to shine and show the difference between the two. Go to CBus or CHi – they have a mix, and the mix brings in all types of people – even the people you all hate, suburbanites. Yet suburbanites spend money, add a certain amount of class, and want things safe. God forbid.

Suburbanites also bring the IQ up 25%, and they lead by example. They, for the most part, don’t put up with shit. They don’t put up with bums and urine in alleys and trash on the streets and weeds growing out of every crack and home made signs and used this and that. They like new. Clean. Safe.

It ain’t brain science or rocket surgery. Yet you folks make it out to be. Johnny Merrit Menthol with torn pants and dirty shirt and bummin money is not cool with these folks. Yet you want to succeed. You do the math.


Suburbanites bring the IQ up by 25 percent? LOL.  Someone who likes “new,” “clean,” “safe” sounds like a little girl or an old woman and not at all what most people ascribe to. Every college town in America has a used bookstore, Gene. Every hamlet in Europe has one. You do sometimes wear your midwestern dorki-ness like a crown. 

Why doesn’t Dayton study the examples of other cities that have been leveled by economic despair (Pittsburgh comes to mind) and see what worked for them. 


Laws clearly vary from state to state. No Montanan would ever sit still for meetings having to do with real estate or legal matters being closed. Yikes. Who let that slip by? Heck, even the Chamber of Commerce had to have meetings open to the public. (They didn’t think so, but I did, and the court agreed with me, LOL.) 


Gene – I have friends from out of town that love the O/D’s “eclectic-ness”.  They asked me to take pictures of them in front of the porn shops, were bummed that the rest of the art and “tacky” shops were closed and fell in love with Thai Nine.
YOU are acting like a TYPICAL Daytonian – thinking that if it is “wrong, tacky or classless” to us, that everyone else feels the same.   My family went to Germany in 1996 and one of my favorite pictures is one where it looks like my oldest sister is pulling our Dad into a “Sex Shop”.  Stop assuming that if you don’t like it, it doesn’t appeal to everyone.  Half the fun of the sex shops on 5th Street is dragging in your very prudish friends!


These elected and appointed development ~wizards….are just a…joke..!
They don`t have the IQ…to look out the windows at the existing businesses that are…sitting in their office trying to decide to close their doors of move.
The loyal people that have live here for 20+ years…need jobs..!  Bring in the ~white collar (few) jobs…don`t create local impact..!
the ~wizards….have to fix what exists…then…a safe and stable community attracts…new business to move here..! 
Everybody….sit back and listen to David.  The closed door meeting was probably about…what ~big kahoona local political  contributor…will get another pile of $$ to put on a..~show…for little to nothing…so…Mr. Kahoona…can ….contribute…more to the local elected…~royalty..! 
Just 3 weeks ago…the elected and appointed ~wizards…laughed at my $100 million in new construction…400 jobs and….then you see all of the ~royalty on TV….playing ass grabbing at Austin Road…~~~  
If people only knew the..~truth…that David writes about…~~~~ 
David…you should write a…~connect-the-dots…flow chart…..showing…~who the ~Kahoonas are and what elected  & ~appointed ~wizards…. are in the ~Kahoonas…….pockets..~~~   OOhh…also show the..~over runs…in projects..~~ 
Then…show how the private development groups get their $$…the salaries they get and how much $$ gets…handed out for development and ~who gets the…$$..! 


You miss the point. Used bookstores are fine. Just not in the heart of the so called entertainment district. The OD is not big enough. And it is not busy, proving Dayton is not well read.
That is great you have friends that love the OD. But you missed the point as well. A couple of people who find it quaint is not the same as thousands of people going to a place everyday spending money and actually having success in an area. 
You folks don’t get it. The OD is unique – great. It is also not successful.

People are better educated in our suburbs compared to our city. It may be different in other parts of the USA, but in Dayton we have a lot of people who are not that smart.


Yes, David…a new chart…as it is today….   from the County Commissioners/Economic Development….and The City of Dayton…/Private development organizations…on down…~flowing the $$ trail. 
Then..Granted…new white collar is great….but…are 80 + % of the ~blues…supposed to move out ..????   Everybody that lives here…are…NOT…high-tech…putor-pushers..! According to history…the ~white collar  company …when their tax abatement is up…they are off to the next stupid city that will give them more…abatements..!  The company leves a big debt…that they won`!  Just like DHL…owing the Dayton Economic Group …trying to get back…approx.   $246 million…~~~~   Somebody…got ~rich off of that..~blunder and…~WE…as a community…lost…big-time…..! 
Loyal people..need ~real jobs…and ~geeze….we clearly needed a new..~Walmart and minimum wage jobs 20/30 hour with no benefits….~~lol…. ..   OOHH….who made $$ the $$  big bonanza from a Walmart…being built…???  (the political $$ ~flow..??)… 
It makes you …wonder…what smaller loyal local business is going to close…because..the big…W…just brought in some new ~China…cheap junk..???  
David…show us the…~$$..and who ghets it..~~~~ 
Also, have somebody poll the economic development ~wizards in every city…….ask them what business they have ~ran out-of-town.. because…A local..~big kahoona…wasn`t involved…???  


OOOHH…I had to…laugh till I cried….on TV…the other night I saw & heard…Miami Twp. boasting…just how great all the elected officials…worked so had together….for the austin Road Development…~~~
I tried 4 weeks to get…1…meeting with Miamisburg/Centerville/Miami Twp/Washington Twp/West Carrollton…at the same time….~what a…joke..!  
They only get at 1 place…if a Kahoona…~yanks their..collar..~~~~   lol…..


OHHOO..~~…I HaD to…. pUke….[[]]…while reading….. your Boston’s type…….. meSSage……….OOhoHOh…


Bonnett’s Books has been in the OD since 1939. They must be doing something right. Die-hard champions of the OD, the Bonnetts also own multiple buildings in the district, putting their money where their mouth is. A “little used bookstore”? Hardly.


In the Heart of the Entertainment District! Add the Porno shop and the bums and you have a successful OD.

You folks just don’t get it.


~Well…Gene….YOU…have missed the…~point….Honest…elected people make a..~smart…community..! 
One thing you are..~right at is…..the ~quaint and..~artsy folks…are 4% of the population…..~~  
The arts… economic IMPACT… ($$) on a strong community..!  The rich…donate to it…!/2 half of the ~artsy ones…barely afford to buy a…book..~~~  
We need…~Destination…type events…that attract business and jobs to the area..!  Events…cause…$IMPACT$..!


Gene…tell all of us…what you do for a job..??   What you do to ~impact your community..??  Tell us…just how ~smart…you..are..????


The Oregon is a great entertainment destination. I personally wish it would expand over to Wayne Ave. across from Coco’s and connect to South Park. Bonnet’s is an absolute treasure. I have found many great items for myself and for my classroom when I was teaching. I planned out several week collage project from about $20 worth of old magazines (National Geographics, Comics, Westerns). Stores like Bonnett’s give Dayton it’s quirky identity and sense of place. The art galleries are fine, though there are quite a few. The art I’m into doesn’t really fit in the gallery setting. But good for them, I hope they all make it. I’ve seen some great work mixed with some mediorce stuff. The porno shops don’t bother me but it may bother suburban types. I think the bars in OD are alright too. I like Trolley Stop’s decor, if it were to change I think it would lose it’s charm. Blind Bob’s is a big step up from Night Owl, thought their sound system is way to loud for that echoy space. Canal Street has the best sound in Dayton. I think part of the problem is folks form the suburbs want a clean, sanitized reality presented to them on a silver, parking friendly platter (i.e. The Greene, Easton, etc..). The world is not clean, and problem free.  Suburban living is to put on a pair of blinders and pretend these problems don’t exist. That’s a major reason we have some of these problems These attitudes are very hard to change. But to completely sacrifice a cities identity to get suburban people to visit is not the answer, in my opinion. That said, I think it’s great to get suburban folks down in the city. They spend money and seem to have a good time. I try and get my friends and family downtown and show them that it’s safe and a hell of a lot of fun. 20 minute walk to a Dragon’s game, grab some beers on the walk home. But to cater exclusively to this crowd is foolhardy. I agree in… Read more »


Chicago, New York, LosAngeles, Miami, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco , Santa Barbara, Houston, Lincoln, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Boston etc. don’t look like The Greene either. It is a typical suburban upscale MALL. It’s wonderful that Gene loves it so, but these kinds of ventures are not at the heart of ANY city, successful or otherwise. 

I would love to see the Arcade bring in a few of the  better chain stores to anchor it, but who knows what those investors have in mind. Maybe a Macy’s or Elder-Beerman downtown. But even if we did, we’d have to change the mindset of all the people who work in downtown Dayton, but jump in their cars to drive to Centerville or Beavercreek to shop. 

Word to JR: Could you please type normally? I’m interested in what you have to say, but your unconventional text structure makes it too much work.

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

The powers that be that brought us this mess are still in charge and they collectively do not want to admit their complicity in creating this problem.  A natural response from guilty individuals, especially the people that we have elected.  Dayton has no natural barriers to growth, nor laws with teeth that make growth smart, because the people elected are beholden to developers.  Developers do not understand how to create sustainable jobs, nor can they understand the hi tech jobs or for that matter manufacturing.  Loose credit and elected officials beholden to the developer/banking interests have led us to this mess, which is not conveyed to the public due to the fact that the DDN is beholden to the same interests.

America and Dayton cannot afford continuing the insanity and as soon as the Chinese stop buying our debt, then the jig will be up.   Once all stimulus money is wasted, the people in the closed door meetings better have enough cash to get out of town, or I think it will get ugly for them.  If it does not, I will be disappointed, but that is not a new feeling!

Now the only other way to save Dayton, is for the next closed door meeting to be scheduled at the Beverly Hills Supper Club.

I know callous, but how much longer can we wait for these stupid over paid people to be eradicated?

Greg Hunter
Greg Hunter

The Greene is perfectly done for the Military people.  There is one of these sterile developments in most locations associated with the Military.  The Greene is just a nice sterile environment where white people can go as a family outing.  Dayton used to be like this when there was enough people in the town to counter act the crazies.  Now it is over, but not quite.  The places in Dayton still hold a certain amount of vibe, that cannot be described but can provided a lure back to these establishments.  I try my best to get people to at least try Downtown, but it is a loosing cause with the people we have in charge.


Joe – I really like your comments.  I agree, we can’t make downtown just like the suburbs – each has their own identity, charm and attraction.  Variety is the spice of life.

I’d like to pose a question to everyone here that might take this a bit off track, but it appears the dialogue is winding down anyway.   Everyone talks about our leadership void, some go so far as to mock Mayor McLin in particular.    What change would you need to see in Dayton’s leadership to change your feelings about the City of Dayton? 


Get rid of the drug user and elect people who give a shit – like David Esrati.

I may disagree with DE, and even pick fights just for the hell of it, but at least he cares.

The rule of thumb on things like this is that the people who care most should be in charge. Again, a rule of thumb, not always 100%.

Elect leaders on merit, not skin color. Heck, even BO was elected on white guilt. The Rock Star mislead most of you, he’s got a silver tongue just like the rest of those mofos.


With all due respect to her position, Rhine McLin is a horrible representative for the City of Dayton.  I have no doubt that she loves Dayton and wants us to be as great as we can be… but put yourself in the shoes of a legit business leader having a meeting with her.  Gigantic hat, infamous square/circle glasses, and just generally wierd way of acting… how can anyone take that seriously??

I’m not just one of those random “commenters” over at DDN that blah blah blah about “Mayor McHat”… I mean this with all sincerity… The City of Dayton, and the entire metro region, can no longer afford for her to be our figurehead… Black, white, rich, poor, Centerville, west side…. we’re all DAYTON… and we need some new leadership.  And we need it like NOW!!  Hell, I’ve almost even decided I’m voting for David, even though that partially scares the hell out of me… ;-)


The Greene is perfectly done for the Military people.  There is one of these sterile developments in most locations associated with the Military.

A bit upscale for the enlisted man but you are correct.  There was an entire book written about the military bias towards suburban urban form:  America Town.

But then, as the counterexample, there’s Colleen Ryan.   And I’d suggest she would be a good mayor since she has pr0ven leadership credentials as she was a miltiary commander (answering tg’s question on leadership), as well as being a bridge between the urban community of Dayton city and the suburban military-contractor culture of the regions growing Defense sector.

But then who am I, a confirmed suburbanite, to tell Daytonians who should be mayor?   Seriously, not my issue.

David Lauri

@Jeff: only not your issue if you think that having a strong and vibrant core isn’t important to the overall success of the region

@j.r. erwin: I usually disagree with Gene (for example, when he says that the Oregon District isn’t successful) but I agree with him and with Larkin that your writing style is extremely difficult to read

Civil Servants are People, Too
Civil Servants are People, Too

The article is very misleading.   The meeting probably had nothing to do with NCR and the plans to go after aerospace is old news.   The DDN is either spinning this for headlines or simply misinformed.   The fact that everyone here jumped on the DDN rumor mill is unfortunate and accomplished nothing.

Also, out of curiosity, I read the open meeting laws:
” a  “meeting” is (a) a prearranged gathering of (b) a majority of members of a public body (c) for the purpose  of discussing public business.”

So it seems to me that if there were less than 3 City Commissioners and only 1 County Commissioner at the meeting, it would not qualify as a true “public meeting”…. technically.

blubber blog

Let’s Bring Back Valerie Lemmie – and work With Col. Ryan AND the DDC!
David and Valerie — now there’s a Pair that can get things done!
Somebody needs to take ACTION!


<i>@Jeff: only not your issue if you think that having a strong and vibrant core isn’t important to the overall success of the region</i>

Not my issue becuase I neither live, work, or own property in Dayton proper, so who the city voters select as mayor and commission is not something I should have a voice in.  I am not a stakeholder in those politics.

As to your second point, this has been often stated but never clearly proven.

<i>Our leadership by backroom committee is what has gotten us into this mess. Developers, big business, power brokers, have had carte blanche access for years- where they have told our legislators how to vote.</i>

The system was actually intended to operate this way at first.  It was intended to diffuse democracy and have government run as a business (indirectly by businessmen).   And I wouldn’t have a problem with that if it was effective.   It is effective elsewhere (these types of business sector driven political regimes are sometimes called “growth coalitions”).

Given the economic and population stagnation for the <b>past 40 years</b>, it’s pretty clear the behind-the-scenes movers and shakers here havn’t got their act together either.


Closed door meeting are fine with the mix of different representation in the room. It may have been closed to the public, but there were a lot of different people in that room, not dominated by just the city commission.

I am sure the accomplished nothing. They are good at that.