Maybe we’re thinking of the wrong kind of unigov?
The recent Kettering Health Network move in Greene County had me thinking of what impact a new health campus might have on Montgomery County. What happens when doctors, who work at Kettering- want to move to Beavercreek- so that they won’t have to pay income taxes? A giant sucking sound? Possibly.
One of the reasons we see both the Greene and the Mall at Fairfield Commons right on the edge of Montgomery County is because RTA doesn’t extend service to either. It’s a racist way of keeping “bus people” away from the malls. That also means RTA, which depends on sales tax revenue, misses out on all that retail sales tax.
Most of the talk of “Unigov” or “Regional Government” has been about merging cities within Montgomery County for efficiencies. However, communities like Oakwood and Kettering just don’t want to play along. We have all these different taxing districts, with so many different tax rates. We have over 20 police chiefs- the whole thing is what happens when evolution is left unchecked- freaks of government emerge.
Maybe we should be considering merging Montgomery and Greene County instead? Expand Five Rivers Metroparks across the two counties, one street maintenance organization, one sheriff, and, maybe even a prosecutor that believes in handing out justice (and no, Mat Heck, I’m sure not talking about you). We have one sales tax that covers RTA, the Arts, and Parks and Rec. We have one income tax über county wide- that is divvied up per capita, with a kicker to any community that buys more services from the county- ie: building inspection, code enforcement, street maintenance, “economic development,” police, fire. As time goes by, we have at least one strong regional leader to project a sense of direction. Plus, our MSA becomes significant.
I don’t think anyone is as connected to County government the way they are to Municipal government- and that could be our ace in the hole. Your thoughts?
I wouldn’t call it racist that the RTA isn’t wanted at The Greene or Fairfield Commons. Look at the “bus people” who literally took over, and in my opinion – destroyed, the Salem Mall; and now the Dayton Mall. They are nearly all teenagers (of all colors), not adults. They aren’t getting a ride to work. They aren’t shopping. They are loitering, running around, screaming, and being assholes. It’s the one and only reason I don’t shop at the Dayton Mall (and why I gave up on the Salem Mall many years before it finally closed).
What could possibly be “in it” for Greene County? Why would they voluntarily merge so that their taxes could go up to help the City of Dayton?
Just like when you talk about Mont. Co. Unigov… sounds great for the City of Dayton, but it is hard to see why the suburbs would want to sign on.
@Roger- what does this have to do with the City of Dayton? I’m talking about merging County governments. We’re looking at huge economies of scale- plus, much better business environment with only one tax rate, one political division that matters- and hopefully- lots of synergy.
I’m with you. I’m personally in favor of UniGov… but from the suburbs, especially Greene County, folks only see the benefit for the City of Dayton.
In addition, as you have established, the current govt. of the city is corrupt and incompetent. The folks in the suburbs see that those people would be part of their government if this went through.
Best post yet, Esrati. About time someone realises the close connection between Greene and Montgomery Counties. Greene isnt a typical suburban county. Also, good call on the racism in Greene County for not wanting to join RTA. However, you’re wrong on one point: the mall locations are due to proximity to I-675 exits, not RTA avoidance. It just so happened that I-675 was aligned just beyond the county line. However, not wanting to extend the service outward to the malls (and Xenia and Fairborn) is racist and classist, sort of like poster Allison, who is now avoiding the Dayton Mall because of “those people”.
Nice spin and twist of my words, Jeff.
@Jeff- damn, it only took like, 1049 posts to get a top rated one!
Beavercreek and Fairborn may as well be part of Montgomery County- but, then again- if we’re going to make this all work, we need to stop looking at lines drawn on a map ages ago- and work with what makes sense.
And, Roger- trust me- corruption runs into Greene and Clark Counties- all the way up to the Congressmen. It’s time for some cleaning up all over.
Are we arguing semantics in re: RTA not going to the Greene? As in, it isn’t “allowed” directly into the Greene? Because I know there is at least one route that goes almost directly up to it, at least to that corner where Wendy’s/China Whatever-before-it-got-dozed (sorry, directionally challenged, can’t remember the street). My friend used to work at Cheesecake Factory, and took the RTA to work every day.
Blame Greene Co, not the malls.
It is not a youth thing – bc there are plenty of young people at the Greene.
RTA also goes to Wright State, but it’s like gingerly touching your toe in the cold water. There could be a considerably more robust service that throughout Greene County, vs their underfunded CATS system, which has more demand than service…..
Beavercreek and Fairborn may as well be part of Montgomery County- but, then again- if we’re going to make this all work, we need to stop looking at lines drawn on a map ages ago- and work with what makes sense.
….Bingo.
You know, the state legislature should think about why Ohio needs 88 counties, 60 of which, according to the 2007 census estimates, have less than 100,000 people each. Talk about duplication of services.
But changing the organization of Ohio’s counties would be a task greater than I’d ever want to tackle. Over 60 county seats worrying about losing their status, over 60 county commissions and the employees thereof also worrying.
In case anyone else wants to look at Ohio population figures by county, they’re at:
http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/tables/CO-EST2007-01-39.xls
Tradition. Not a good reason, but…….
We, in Mont Co, need to understand a lot of country folk want nothing to do with us. I don’t blame them. They have their lives. Their ways. They don’t care about the Daytons of the world.
Maybe we should leave them along and improve ourselves. Why change other counties when we need to change ourselves.
Yes, it may be overdone. But these are the same folks that don’t want crime or gay marriage or abortion. They have rights too.
BTW, I dont want crime. I just deal with it.
The only good example of metro governance that extends over multiple counties is Portland’s “Trimet”. That would probably be a better model than Indy or Louisville, since Portland is in a very similar situation as Dayton, having substantial portions of the metro area in multiple counties.
Portland ain’t that great….. inflated housing market, fake environmental folk, still big drug use.
Not comparable to the Big D, don’t mean Denver. Or Dallas.
“We’re not here to shop. We’re not here to work. We’re just here.” From the Kevin Smith movie “Mallrats.”
“Allison, you’re aim is true.” (apologies to Elvis Costello, who make look me up with malice aforethought before his performance this week at the Fraze.}
Yes, Dave, Allison hit the nail on the head. Kids kill malls. It’s that simple. And as of this year, more malls will close than will open. Blaming racism is the knee jerk reaction to the inconvenient truth that folks without money (you know, the ones that ride the RTA) get in the way of folks with the big bucks. Fact is, the new strategy is find a cornfield on the way to a big attraction and drop a mall there. Think Jeffersonville (30 miles or so from Dayton, Cincy and Columbus) or that new super outlet mall near Mason. When the Dayton Mall announced their age limit after 6 pm policy, those same screams of racism rang loud and long, especially from that shrill, annoying bunch from the Dayton Daily News editorial board. But does the Dayton Mall sport a better atmosphere without an army of adolescents making out, fighting and shoplifting? You betcha. And another thing Dave. The cry and charge of racism over just about everything is ringing kinda’ hollow with a black dude in the Oval Office………..
The word “racist” is a liberal way of calling you mean, or rich, or productive. Or white.
When I lived in Mercer Co, yes, it was a different world. A world that needs to be it own.
Uni Gov is another dream. In our county no one likes Dayton, and we are the butt of all jokes 50 to 100 miles away.
You fill a city of 150K and only half, maybe half, work……. and we wonder why we are 3rd rate. or 7th rate at this point. Our CBus took form Day, Tol, Cle, Cin, Akr, etc….. blame the big C-Bus
When the Dayton Mall announced their age limit after 6 pm policy, those same screams of racism rang loud and long,
This is actually a good policy, bus service or no bus service. But it doesnt have anything to do with Greene County avoiding participating in a reigonal transit system. And it doesnt have anything to do with Allison not wanting to shop at the DaytonMall now. Since the situation she describes no longer exists. The issue now is that the Dayton Mall is percieved as “ghetto” (this was mentioned elsewhere), which means too many black people for some white folk. The racist white folk. Lack of snob appeal has something to do with it, too.
The word “racist” is a liberal way of calling you mean, or rich, or productive. Or white.
Or generalizing off negative stereotypes of black folk.. People are in such denial about this it’s laughable if it were not so pathetic. Racism is one of the many things that has killed Dayton.
When I lived in Mercer Co, yes, it was a different world.
….another problem with the Dayton area is too many country people.
The 3rd shopping area that developed in Greene County was along Wilmington Pike, and is directly on the county line. This development is more strip centers and big boxes so not as high-viz as Fairfield Commons and The Greene, but it’s pretty active (and has sucked some business out of Dayton proper, like The Blind Spot that used to be on Wimington near Tanks). I think this is another good example of I-675 induced commercial development who’s tax benefit is lost to Montgomery County., especially since the market is southern Kettering and western Centerville/Washington Township as much as Bellbrook/Sugarcreek Twp.
Since this development is right on the county line it does have RTA service as the buses run right on Wilmington (and services that new hospital across the street from the shopping). But its not a very pedestrian-freindly set-up.
Also, when I-675 was being proposed in the 1970s it was foreseen that office and retail development would spring up along the interchanges. It was proposed to set up a revenue sharing arrangement where some of the tax benefits of this developement would be shared between the suburbs (Beavercreek, Fairborn, etc) and Dayton city as a way to mitigate the loss of tax actvity as commercial activity reoriented itself around the freeway.
This form of regional cooperation and fairness was opposed by Greene County and local governement officials there, and was never implemented. So all the economic benefits of the eastern leg of I-675, a regional highway, was lost to a sizeable portion of the region (Dayton and Montgomery County)
Mercer County is not “Dayton Area.” You say Dayton is racist, then you say we have too many country people. What, you are not tolerant of country folk? To say Dayton is dead because of race relations goes a bit far. Other cities of similar size have had a similar history. We do not take any pride in our city. Why would you with the leadership? It is business unfriendly and does little to prevent crime. Why do we associate racism with safety? People want to be safe, regardless if the criminal element is white, black, Latino, etc. We have a lot of white people in Dayton who commit crime, that is why people want to go to the suburbs. And the schools stink in Dayton. Racism is a part of all cities – and maybe Dayton is worse than most cities, but it is hardly the main reason. Think safety, think schools. If Dayton works on these two issues, as well as opens the flood gates for new and existing business, it can turn around. But we have too many people with their hands in the cookie jar. If anything it may be poor white/black/Latino hate productive people and are bitter that their parents (if they had two parent, or even one) treated them like dirt. Hard to get ahead in this society when you have five or eight sibling with a couple of different moms and dads in the mix. Heck, Grandmas have been the mothers to a lot of these kids – white and black. Believe it or not, our society is set up where if you come from an urban area you want to be a pimp (not an actual pimp, a player though – if you know what I mean) or sports star or some sort of celebrity. They see all these people with cash never recognizing the work involved. They want instant gratification. This happens in the suburbs also. They just start off in a better situation – white or black or Latino, does not matter. It is mostly their up-bringing. People have lost… Read more »
<blockquote>To say Dayton is dead because of race relations goes a bit far.</blockquote>
Not really. Dayton is paying for it’s sins from both sides of the color spectrum. Dayton leadership did not respond to the race issue, correctly, during pivitol points in it’s history.
Atlanta had a much different response to the unrest of the 60’s, so it is no wonder that City is thriving while we are dying.
http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_04_1_graglia.pdf
Atlanta may have had a different response than Dayton, but it was hardly the solution. It took a lot of time and they still have problems, as with all cities. Dealing with race relations have helped, but not bc of the intended result of them, rather a “wake up call” for both black and white people. The city of Atlanta is only 500k people, yet huge population outside the city limits. Dayton is a smaller example of this. Race relations may be better, but….. *but race relations, Jacoby found, are nonetheless far from ideal, perhaps best described as “uneasy coexistence” *Like Coleman Young, Mayor Jackson was devoted to “the goal of black empowerment” (p. 367) and therefore quickly turned to a program of “police reform” that was “more concerned with curbing the police than punishing criminals” (p. 368). The result, as in Detroit, was that “the crime rate . . . was out of sight—by the end of the decade, the worst in the country” *At least partly as a result, Atlanta, despite its economic growth, remained “a desperately poor city—by one measure the second poorest in the country (after Newark, New Jersey)” (1970’s) *The city bought off the NAACP in a busing suit by turning over the school system to NAACP control, with the result that the middle class, both black and white, abandoned the public schools, “leaving them over 90 percent black and among the nation’s worst” *During the 1970s, 40 percent of the white population, 70,000 people, left the city, increasing the black share of the population to two-thirds. *Economic growth nonetheless continued in Atlanta, fueled in part by a halfbillion- dollar airport renovation. *The Croson Court recognized that “classifications based on race carry a danger of stigmatic harm” and “may in fact promote notions of racial inferiority and lead to politics of racial hostility” *More to the point, the commission found that the programs did not serve their stated purpose: “Set-asides do not appear to have encouraged the formation of minority- owned firms” *Jacoby ends her long and devastating discussion of the state of race relations… Read more »
The issue now is that the Dayton Mall is percieved as “ghetto” (this was mentioned elsewhere), which means too many black people for some white folk. The racist white folk. Lack of snob appeal has something to do with it, too. (Jeff) Dayton is paying for it’s sins from both sides of the color spectrum. Dayton leadership did not respond to the race issue, correctly, during pivitol points in it’s history. (Greg Hunter) Well, Jeff, America’s love affair with the mall is coming to an end. And a glimpse at the website “Deadmalls.com,” which chronicles shopping areas hit by the wrecking ball, will reveal that this seachange in American taste is not restricted to southwest Ohio. The big box boys, such as Wal-Mart, have driven a stake into the old way of retailing. Fact is, there is a new Wal-Mart within walking distance of the Dayton Mall, and there is zero snob appeal in shopping there. Taking the Salem Mall as an example, the theme song seemed to be “Saturday Night is Alright for Fighting.” Brawls in the food court between rival Dayton schools (not to mention the parking lot shootout with the Trotwood Police) gave the Salem Mall (the second oldest mall in the country) the justifiable tag of unsafe. And as the Visa and Mastercard crowd sought other areas, the Mall replaced the boutiques and clothing stores with cd shops, endless sneaker outlets and bling bling emporiums. These new outlets sealed the Salem Mall’s fate, insofar as kids were now the sought after demographic. Salem Mall, RIP. Did racism have anything to do with that? Doubt it. Folks just wanna’ shop without shootouts, brawls and baby-mama drama. But let’s, for the sake of argument, say that your allegations of racism are 100 percent correct. So what? Freedom of association is one of the bedrock licenses our constitution allows. And unless we revive the Thought Police, preferences and prejudices are one’s own. And Greg? Just what sins did Dayton commit in the area of race relations? Electing a black mayor when only one other large urban area (Cleveland’s Carl… Read more »
*Freedom of association is one of the bedrock licenses our constitution allows. And unless we revive the Thought Police, preferences and prejudices are one’s own.
Yes, but liberals want people to associate even if they hate each other. I think it is best to let racist people live within their own communities if you will, both white and black. If they don’t want to get along why put them together.
I live in Dayton bc I can live with anyone. I actually like Dayton. But there are some who can not live with others. I want those people to leave Dayton and we could be left with a mixture of all people who choose to live together. Why do we want to force people to get along?
We could build a mega outdoor mall in the city limits. But it would attract criminals, both black and white, and it would cater to Dayton people who have little to no money. Why force that?
My friend always says the could have built “the Greene” in downtown Dayton. Sure, and it would have failed. Dayton does not have enough money nor the social capability to support retailers who are looking to make a profit. Malls like that develop where people have money and they keep it safe and theft and destruction is kept to a minimum. Dayton could never do that – no money, too many criminals. I live with it, so do most of you. But that is the truth.
Gene and Ice Bandit, thanks for the thoughtful responses. I appreciate the review of the link by Gene and I will agree that what Atlanta did was not enough as the USA response by passing the Great Society legislation exacerbated the problem.
Long story short on Atlanta is that the business leadership had learned from previous run ins over race was that the City could no longer afford race riots and therefore after MLK’s death a dialogue occurred between the Black Leadership and Business Community. This dialogue did not occur in Dayton; instead a quasi apartheid was established with the back door leadership ensuring white mayor black police chief in steady rotation. All the while the established white neighborhoods with money and influence continued to grow at an unchecked rate, resulting in the Dayton we have today.
The Cities that did not have historically high concentrations of blacks prior to the establishment of City boundaries or ones that worked out the race issues have fared much better than Dayton. So one can say race is not an issue when clearly it has been a cause of many of the issues that haunt Dayton and will continue to do so.
Greg, not sure that link helped define Atlanta’s success – or their solution to race issues.
Business friendly, both Atlanta and Georgia, and a little pride go a long way. Not to mention it is the capital of the state – which means all the other cities and counties outside of the capital pay taxes to fund those who can’t help themselves.
Yes, you are right Greg, in the fact that Dayton did not address the situation. They never address any real situation, race issues or any other issues. The leadership has been awful, and I am being nice about that….
Mercer County is not “Dayton Area.” You say Dayton is racist, then you say we have too many country people. What, you are not tolerant of country folk? Hah! I trolled and you bit! To say Dayton is dead because of race relations goes a bit far. Other cities of similar size have had a similar history. Agree, but it’s more stark here, more visible, for various reasons. The history of racism is just one factor in the death of the city. Why do we associate racism with safety? Why? One could cite studies, but it does come down, in part, to social segregation leading to negative stereotypes. Sort of the way people think Kentuckians are trashy hicks since the only contact they have with them is in East Dayton. Living in Kentucky one will develop a more nuanced opinion of the natives. There’s been stuff written on this, and the race-crime stereotype is a contributing factor to the problems with reviving downtown. I blogged on this a year ago but dont really feel motivated to find the link. And Greg? Just what sins did Dayton commit in the area of race relations? Electing a black mayor when only one other large urban area (Cleveland’s Carl Stokes) had done so? Sending a black legislator to Columbus (Mayor McHat’s daddy) for so long he became house speaker? Selecting a Olympic gold medal winning Republican of color to Columbus (Dave Albritton) or a charismatic city councilman to be the city’s voice and conscious (Don Crawford) ? The failure was not this somewhat tokenist litany of political players (though McGee was not a token and did take on the local power structure over I-675), but the underlying issues of white flight and directed residential segregation, directed by the local real estate industry, which extended beyond the city into suburbia. This goes back to the 1920s or before, when there was consideration of using zoning to legally segregate blacks. Another consequence was economic segregation of blacks into industrial jobs that disappeared over the years. This affected… Read more »
Joining this conversation late, it’s also 4:30 AM and I can’t sleep, so forgive me for any typos or fuzzy thoughts. One thing not discussed that I’ve thought a lot about lately is the placement of so many social services in the urban core – i.e. homeless shelters, the jail, the courts, jobs & family services, etc etc. On one hand you can say it makes sense to put the services where the clientele is located. Yet it still just seems like dumping to me. All the social services to deal with all the social ills are placed in the centrally located core, and then it becomes very convenient to say “nope, can’t go downtown, that’s where all the poor/minority/sick/lazy welfare (in other words all the people who aren’t like “me”) hang out and it’s not safe for me”. Yet for all the talk of regionalism, I wonder what would happen if Dayton were to finally stand up and say ‘guess what folks, you don’t want us to be part of your unigov, that’s just fine and dandy, but now each of you can house your courts, your own prisoners, your own homeless, your own drug dealers and addicts and all the services that go to support them’. No more picking up the homeless and bringing them to shelters here. No more driving in from Xenia or Oakwood or wherever to buy your drugs or prostitutes. Supply your own. I just think it is all too convenient for the suburbs (not just here but around the country) to push their problems to the core and then say “nope, we don’t want unigov, it’ll only benefit the core and suck the life out of us”. So maybe it is time to try something different and either start charging the surrounding communities an arm & a leg to support their under privileged, or let them provide their own services. I really don’t see the current model working for anyone. Like it or not, this region is called “Dayton” and we really are all in this together. You don’t have to move to… Read more »
^
In otherewards, tg supports Rhine McLins’ goal of turning Dayton into a boutique city.
Seriously, the idea of decentralizing sense. What we have now is social exclusion on a massive scale, and one way out of that is to decentralize social services, particularly homeless housing to where the jobs are, which is suburbia. And since things like the job center administer state and federal programs there is no reason for it to be within the city limits.
The issue of the underclass concentrating in Dayton is something that happens because Dayton isnt a desirable place to live for anyone else. This is more the workings of the market, which is a feeback loop to underlying causes.
Like it or not, this region is called “Dayton” and we really are all in this together.
This is only evident when Dayton criminals start to prey on suburbanites, and when the underclass starts to move to cheap suburban apartments since so much of the city is becomining uninhabitable.
I wonder, would it be illegal (as opposed to immoral, which it probably would be) for the City of Dayton to take people convicted of small crimes (panhandling without a license, sleeping under bridges, whatever) and drive them to places such as Centerville or Beavercreek and drop them off, not against their will but with their consent, perhaps pointing out to them that the pickings are better in the suburbs?
Please note: I’m not seriously advocating this. I just wonder if it would be illegal.
Well it seems to me that the Dayton criminals require a “list” of those responsible for Dayton’s current condition. I would suggest they target the Chamber of Commerce and the Coalition. IMHO
Jeff your analysis has always been dead on, especially the busing issue. Crazy for kids to pay for the sins of the parents. But it has really worked for all the suburban schools systems as the “white” kids received a great education and then fled to Cities where multiculturalism thrived or was mitigated by continuous growth.
Atlanta is Capital and so is Indianapolis and Columbus, but those Cities also did not have an industrial base that enabled the black population to achieve middle class status during the crucial period Post War to the Great Society. This fact muted the race problems in those cities.
I was in C’est Tout on a Saturday Night and listened to a DDN columnist’s wife discuss the RTA bus stop routes with her husband….”The people going to the Schuster do not want to see them…..no you cannot move it there as the people going to the Neon do not want to see them either”…..
For me it was surreal as it seemed the discussion, if resolved satisfactorily, would solve Dayton’s problems.
“In otherewards, tg supports Rhine McLins’ goal of turning Dayton into a boutique city.”
Since tg has no clue what the Mayor means by “boutique city” I don’t know if I support it or not. ;)
@David Lauri – other cities routinely buy one way bus tickets for their homeless to Dayton because our services are so good. A friend’s husband is an RTA bus driver and hears the story often. Plus word gets out in the homeless community how good our services are, so that attracts more.
Anyone see the movie “Pursuit of Happiness” with Will Smith? Seems that is a common story in our homeless shelters today. It’s not derelicts with addictions, but working families.
Saw a sign in the background on a show on ESPN last week that I couldn’t hear. The sign read “MEtopia is better than Utopia” and I think it really sums things up today. We are becoming a two class town – upper and lower – with those few remaining in the middle class being one medical crisis or job loss from bankruptcy. The prevailing attitude is “I’m taking care of myself, you take care of yourself” which is fine until you find yourself in a bad spot and wonder why no one will take care of you.
Sometimes I don’t think it’s racism that holds this town back, and it’s tempting to say it’s “suburban vs urban” but I think it does mostly boil down to the have’s vs the have not’s. Maybe we’re all just a bunch of insecure snobs that are so beaten down by the economy that we can only feel better about ourselves by mocking someone we perceive to be “less than”. And unless and until we can deal with that situation, unigov is just a pipe dream. No one seems to live by “do unto others…” any more.
?
Working Families? Why would they be homeless then? You mean formerly working families.
There is and always will be a middle class. A large middle class. What do you define as middle class? What do you define as rich/upper class?
Let people be who they are, so long as they are not hurting anyone else. If people don’t want to help others then let them be. Liberals want to require this in the form of huge taxes. Conservative have always given more time and money to charities, that is just a fact Jack. Read Who Really Cares and maybe it would be a wake up call for liberals.
People in the suburbs generally don’t want to put up with things like homelessness, open drug abuse, theft, pan handling. Why is that hard to swallow? I don’t like these things, but I live closer to it than they do.
As for busing, it is a lost cause. It costs way too much to maintain. We should reclaim all the clunker cars, get out of work mechanics to fix them if need be, sell them to the poor for $25 (bc nothing is free) and get rid of the bus system. We could still have the elderly/handicap services, but those huge empty buses are a joke. I watch them go by my house all the time. 2 or 3 people. Heck, I can fit 4 other people in my car. Buses are a waste of time and money.
Bus routes to further destinations will not change the habits of those who ride them. Stop with the band aid BS. People need to change themselves, make better decision regarding their lives. People who are down and out generally have made bad decision after bad decision.
Liberals got rid of the mental hospitals and wonder why there is a huge homeless population. A population that keeps the productive people from visiting downtown.
I agree with Gene.
Not sure why so many people think that more government helps. More government takes more from productive people and gives more to “under” priveleged. Which encourages people to not be productive. Get rid of government, as in:
-Dump RTA
-Dump public schools
-Dump teaching license requirements too so poor people can teach poor people (yes not often thought of, how the government gets in the way)
-Dump Welfare services
Liberty restored, Dayton fixed.
@Robert- regional government is a way to reduce government.
Dumping RTA doesn’t help the 25% of the population that doesn’t own a car. Doesn’t cut down on emissions or parking problems.
Dumping public schools- charters are here- not helping.
Teaching licenses- Charters have worked around that- as have some public schools.
Dumping welfare- be glad you are healthy and employed.
You aren’t very practical.
Robert Vigh – You sir are absolutely a man of no class, understanding or bearing in the matters of which you speak.
“I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it.”
– Thomas Jefferson
While I will not deny that the DPS, as with most schools, have been totally ruined by the administration and the pollyanish behavior toward the school with respect to dear little John/Jane, Public Education should be a TOP priority of Government.
Read up about how I used to get beat….er, I mean http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm
Dear Greg Hunter,
I was attempting to post short and sweet. I thank you for the personal attack, they always let me know I got someones goat. You may have it back at your leisure.
What I know about public schools: 80% graduation rate. In the cities 40% graduation rate (Columbus included). Cost per child per year can average around 17K through government programs. The curriculum is antiquated, the hours do not service the public at large. The teaching requirements prevent supply of teachers. The mandate that every child goes to school allows the dis-interested to affect the interested. The content of most topics often can be inaccurate.
Removing public funding from schools and allowing a profit motive would create a competitive market for teaching. It is my opinion that schools would improve in cost efficiency and success. It would also restore property rights to the people via removing property taxes. It would restore the direct relationship to families for usage .vs cost and allow charity to be genuine as opposed to entitlements.
Thomas Jefferson’s quote is a nice pull, however it leaves lots of room such as: Do we teach civics to a degree he would find appreciable? I highly doubt it. Do you think he meant at this cost and for 13 years of each persons life? I doubt that as well.
Do not think I engage in frivolous thought, I have an understanding and a bearing. And I would argue my class is derived from my personal charities and understanding that a better method could service society better and maintain individual liberty.
To David:
-Go regional government if we get to reduce taxes and increase freedoms woo hoo!
-Why not buy them cars? I mean its not the politicians money. Besides, what would I do as a business owner if I did not pay someone to get here and pay someone to buy my products? It only helps me in the long run! ……….pfft.
-Give it time
-Good
-Thank God.
-I am practical, just from a whole other perspective.
We are becoming a two class town – upper and lower – with those few remaining in the middle class being one medical crisis or job loss from bankruptcy. …. Sometimes I don’t think it’s racism that holds this town back, and it’s tempting to say it’s “suburban vs urban” but I think it does mostly boil down to the have’s vs the have not’s.
There’s pretty good statistical proof of this, based on mapping the increase in poverty by census tract since 1970. It’s a long term process, but what you’re seeing is the consequences of the disappearance of broad based prosperty in the metro area. Not only has poverty increased across the board in both the city AND the suburbs, but it has also become more concentrated.
Mappable via this site. Select the Dayton MSA, and then do a comparison between 1970 and 2000
http://www.urbanpoverty.net/
Robert – Kettering, Oakwood, Beavercreek, Centerville, Bellbrook, Fairborn are also all PUBLIC school systems. Do you propose closing everything but private and charter schools?
Unigov is designed to reduce government. Do we need all of the police chiefs, school superintendents, mayors, commissioners, court administrators, etc etc etc?
Tg,
Yes. I think that they would improve beyond their current status, even though they are already way ahead of other school systems. —-We should not get to deep. I am waiting for David to post something specifically on education systems. I read all of Stricklands bill by the way, it was a terrible idea.
I think Unigov could be an idea if we did not seek so much control over spending people’s money. People want their decisions to be closer to home and closer to their wallets. If a county is traditionally conservative and fiscally responsible, why would that populace even pretent to want to engage with another sector of local government? Reduce the role of government and consolidation would become much easier.
Jeff,
I looked over the map thing, it is interesting to see the populace gravitate to the city. I would think economic factors of cheap property and welfare distribution centers play the major role for this gravitation.
Here is an interesting article.
http://mises.org/story/3618
I think this is one of many factors of governments role in widening the gap in classes.
A platform of eliminating all public funding for schools would be an interesting one upon which to run, Robert. Why don’t you try that and see how many supporters you attract?
It is very simple to improve schools – Pay teachers more and tell parents to screw off. Spank the ones that need it and expel the ones with parents that do not care. Tough. Thank God I grew up in Kettering Schools when these things existed. The pay was increased in the 60’s because the Vietnam War drove MEN into teaching, whom were considered Primary Bread Winners; therefore, pay increased. It was also an era where discipline was meted out with the board, before Women rose up in Power and forced the Schools to leave their precious child alone.
If I hear about efficiency one more time with respect to education I am going to puke. There is no technology that will replace the effective student to pupil ratio; therefore costs are going to go up. Profit motive my ass. Economists are priests and not Scientists.
Full Disclosure – I had GREAT female teachers, but the males that entered the profession in the 60’s have not been replaced because the salaries are not competitive. Get a clue Robert.
“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
– Thomas Jefferson
Funny how one man can have so many things to say that benefit both the right and the left.
A democracy would vote down welfare, or at least scale it back. But liberals want socialism. Just admit it.
Jefferson hated freeloaders and losers. But at least he wanted them to be free, and free of government intervention. Be careful who you quote.
Dear Greg,
I see I still have your goat.
I have friends that teach and got offered a starting salary of 51K and get 3 months off a year, along with phenomenal benefits. It is also shown in studies that schools that have spent more $$ have not shown improvement in test scores. So, exactly what are we supposed to pay them? I am sorry, how much is the government supposed to take from me at gun point to give them?
You know what effects the student to pupil ratio? Supply and demand. Supply and demand determined by market forces is what……? ? ? ? ? Call it out ………efficient!
Furthermore, a private school would whole heartedly set their desciplinary procedures as they see fit. If their program created the highest results, it would become a model. Parents would not be told to “screw off”, because they would know ahead of time they had to screw off because they are enrolling their child to a school that gets results. This would Restore the discipline that would lend to the solution. Score one for me, cause you didnt even see how your point justifies mine, thank you.
Another point is, if we are willing to expel the ones that do not care as you put, then the private markets would be awesome! Because the ones that did not care would not even show up and waste John Q’s tax money. Damn Greg, you are a proponent for getting rid of public schools and you did not even know it!
David Lauri,
I doubt I would get very far. But, keep in mind I would get to drop property taxes, reduce state income tax 20% and kick the federal government out of our hearts and homes. I think the argument is sound for bettering the schools as well. But you are right, I would get drowned out by a chorus of Greg Hunter’s screaming non-sensical profanities and platitudes. lol!!
Another way to improve schools without spending a dime – hold parents accountable. If their kid(s) fail fine them and put them on a chain gang for a Saturday afternoon or two. Simple and cheap and productive.
Robert, I would vote for you. Heck, I vote for Esrati ! Lord knows I don’t mind throwing away votes. I voted for Bob Barr in the presidential election.
I would think economic factors of cheap property and welfare distribution centers play the major role for this gravitation.
Cheap property certainly plays a role.
Reduce the role of government and consolidation would become much easier.
One could reduce to police, fire, and public works. It would be possible to consolidate water and sewer service and privatize that (Lexington, KY, has a water company run by a private company). And also charge user and admission fees to the metroparks, like Hamilton County does.
Ohio already has a levy system where taxes and bond issues are put before the voters. I think one thing that should be done is limit voting on property taxes to property owners.