I was in Chicago yesterday. Second largest public transit system in the country- and the Blue Line to O’Hare was running at 17mph!
The bridge in Minneapolis collapses during rush hour.
Foreclosures on homes in record numbers.
All while we are “fighting a war on terror” costing hundreds of billions.
This country was made with rail power- now we can barely keep Amtrack running- while the rest of the world is going 200+ mph (oh yeah, don’t get me started on the fact that we’re the only idiots in the world NOT using the metric system).
Kids aren’t graduating from our lame public education system- with a 180 day school year, we don’t have universal medical coverage, we’re building a trade deficit with China that if allowed to continue, we’ll all be learning Mandarin.
In the meantime- our political system is totally bought, sold and paid for by special interests- and we’re more worried about what time strip clubs close than about how to equally and fairly fund our schools in Ohio.
This isn’t a Democrat or Republican thing anymore- I can’t even blame George Bush for it anymore. At some point we have to readjust our ego as Americans and realize that we’re still leveraging previous generations’ accomplishments for a false sense of bravado.
Being an American isn’t about becoming a millionaire by leveraging stock options, or “right-sizing” jobs out of America. Yes, this is still a land of opportunity- but increasingly, the playing field is being warped by our loss of touch with premises set out by our founding fathers, remember the line that went:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If you go and read the Declaration of Independence, you might wonder if we’ve forgotten about what it means to have a common, unified appreciation for what Americans used to be made of.
Somehow, someway, we have to find our way back to our roots. We have to restore the pride- and cultivate a new generation that isn’t inspired by rock star athletes, politicians, CEOs, musicians and start appreciating the common denominator of a country that believed in the golden rule- and individual rights.
As I rode the slow train to O’Hare, all I could keep thinking was Mussolini sold himself to the Italians as the man who could make the trains run on time. If we’re not careful about how we continue- we may be headed in the same direction.
I think we are soul mates :)
The CTA is in indeed in poor shape, but that is a local problem. This is due to funding issues with Chicagolands regional transit system Metra/RTA, and involves state government to some degree.
“As I rode the slow train to O’Hare”
… as opposed to the bullet train back to Dayton in under 3 hours….
The good old USA has some good things, and the things you mention don’t put us on par with a third world nation. I was recently in the Americas in the middle, aka central, as well as MEXICO and we have it realllllllllllllllllllllllll nice. The train thing – Big oil doesnt want it so we won’t see it, even though we need it – metric system over rated, our schools do stink, millionaire is what I hope to be so I can donate my money to college kids drinking funds, our political system has always been bought and paid for, how do you think we get all the great shit, well, minus bridges. There are flaws, and most of you who support uni-healthcare (as I do) must understand that many countries are still charging for extra insurance and it can be lacking in terms of the actual “care” part. There is a way, I not sure what it is, but hey Dave, you have to have a solution. Spell it out for us. I really don’t think we are that bad off, but I agree our priorities are pointed in the wrong direction. I just hope my place and my stuff (I really don’t have a lot) are protected and that I can pop a cold one every now and again, otherwise the “treading water” complex of Dayton, OHIO, and The good old USA shall continue.
Gene sometimes I like your posts and yes we are sitting pretty, but we have, and are wasting a great deal of money on things that we should not. I expect America to buy and build quality products and the government should care for the needs of the many and not the pocket books of the few. America is just as corrupt as Mexico, but we pay lawyers to prove it is lawful.
Here is voting advice, vote for the person that you do not know.
I totally agree that The USA is sinking into something, which might be close to 3rd world status. I have lived abroad for 4 years and every year I have come for a visit I have seen very little progress with things that the Europeans had figured out and implemented nearly 20 years ago. My husband, who is from Scandinavia, has come to live in The USA and is amazed and the backwardness and inefficiencies, terrible infrastructure, poverty & lack of education, and just plain ignorance and intolerance.
He cannot believe that we live in a system that does not make sure each elderly has paid medications, give the opportunity for parents to freely educate their children on a higher level, or allow us to simply rely on public transport alternatively as a more environmental and economical way to commute.
In the 4 years I have gone, I have seen an increase in the amount of time people spend with their work. There is less time for family and more stress, road rage, traffic, trash, long lines, and those ‘shady neighborhoods’ that we just can’t even enter if we want to be safe.
I used to be a hardcore American patriot, but after living in Europe for some time I had to wonder and assess my whole thinking, going beyond just this superficial layer of Americanism. There are a lot of great things in The USA; the nature, the people, the diversity, the opportunities…but the things to preserve and keep these things alive and thriving that matter so much are diminishing more and more. It truly saddens me, and makes me ashamed to see my husband struggle with things he has never had to even think about in his whole life. He has traveled a lot to all kinds of places and he says that for sure it has that 3rd world country flair.
I have connections to Germany and visited there a number of times, once when a kid spent a whole summer there. Always stayting with granparents or relatives, so I got to see how the Germans lived at home.
Germany, like Scandinavia, is a social-democratic welfare state. So I was impressed with that way of organizing a society. Based on my experience there that became my preferred political system or form of political economy.
It will never happen here, so it has no impact on my politics, but I can see there are better ways of doing things.
America is moving more to a South American style system….maybe more like Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay (not really third world). Maybe not completly, but we are getting closer to them than to places like Canada and Australia and Europe.
Nothing makes me more depressed than to read about America in recent times. America SHOULD be the greatest country on the planet to live in, but it isn’t. Your average wage is 21% lower than the UK and your average outgoings are 8% higher, this is made worse by the simple fact that in the UK people work less hours than you. So in reality you are working and earning probably 50% less than people in the UK. China is deliberating over whether or not to get rid of its dollar holdings in exchange for Euros – these amount to 1.76 trillion dollars, if China does this the US dollar would simply hit the fan, you could suffer a depression comparible to what was seen in the 1930s.
On the positive side. The USA could close its doors to the whole of the rest of the world tomorrow, give everyone the finger and just go back to producing everything themselves, it has massive resources, oil, coal, steel, just about every mineral known to man. The USA doesn’t need anyone else, nor any other countries money!
There are four things though that would make America great once again and I’ll list them.
1. Free universal health care (no one in a civilised country should have to pay for their health care)
2. Reduced working hours and higher minimum wage. The rest of the world laughs at the stupid hours Americans work. Whilst the rest of the world work to live, you lot live to work.. it just isn’t right in the 21st Century, in the UK the only people who work more than 40 hours per week are either desperate or extremely well off, no inbetween.
3. Free higher education for all. Yep, just like europe does (sort of). The most important commodity in any country is its people. The country MUST invest in its most valuable commodity! Good education should not be the reserve of the wealthy, it is a right of everyone who lives in a country to receive the best education possible. After all most of us are prepared to fight and die for our countries!
4. Increased holidays and sickness pay for all. In Europe we get between 25 and 30 days annual leave (holiday we can choose ourselves) as well as between 8 – 15 statutory days (such as Christmas, Easter etc). An awful lot of places also operate fleixible working hours which give an extra day per month paid leave. So in Europe it is entirely possible to work a 39 hour week and have 57 days paid leave per year. Oh and remember we’re all getting paid more than you….
Don’t you ever get the impression you’re being ripped off?
Andy-
We have to work extra hard to afford all of our cars- and a totally non-existent mass-transit system. Remember- Exxon has to have record profits every quarter.
The problem for the Chinese to dump their dollars- is that all their exports come here.
It would be very short sighted to destroy the major market for your goods. They aren’t stupid- they look long- I’d say they are waiting for the real estate market to hit bottom- then buy the country at firesale prices.
Unfortunately- as long as we have the best politicians money can buy thanks to our corrupt systems of electing (or appointing as we did with GWB)- we’ll never see change until the gap forces a new revolution.
We’re just like alcoholics- we have to hit rock bottom before we try to heal ourselves- and we’re not there yet.
Thanks for the comment.
Cheerio!
I agree with you Andy. I have lived in Europe for the past 4 years and returned to the sad realities of my home country of The USA. The shocking thing is that many people I have met here are just too proud to confess that the country needs a change. If ever I speak up about the fact that everyone should receive free education, many don’t even know the value of one if they got it. ‘What would I need that for’?, is a general response.
Also, I am wondering whatever happened to just a 40 hour week? People are working 10 hours a day or more, plus weekends and holidays. The whole emphasis here is on work and being so busy out of your mind you have no time to even fart; if you aren’t there is something wrong with you. Also, people seem to just hang around at work longer…even after their hours of working are done. They just stick around as if they are dreading the thought of going home at all.
Another sad reality is that there is even more of the hard selling, deceptive advertising and hidden charges. I was very upset to find even people in the medical field (dentists, doctors) trying to hard sell me their services. One dentist wanted almost a hundred dollars up front just to sit and talk about my teeth (beware of the word consultation). Everyone is overworked, overstressed, and still hard up for any little bit of cash it makes me sick. I tried to get a job recently but quit once the boss wanted me to stay after hours and on weekends on a salary-based pay!! I told him that my family, personal time, health & sanity are more valuable than any job.
I won’t give up until I find my own happy medium here, which might take some time. I just wish people would not settle for something less than they deserve. It frustrates me to see parents working 10 hour days instead of using those extra hours to spend with their kids. They just accept it that they are being raised by daycares and nannies. How can this beOK!!!??? People need to evaluate carefully what they are trading and take stances for what is right because there ARE others who feel the way I do, you just have to take extra time to look for them. For example, I had a great job before I went to Europe with a boss who understood that work was not my life and should not be for anybody!!
Americans do work too much……. often they are “AT” work, but not really working, rather talking to co-workers about long hours, their weekend, etc. The point is that Americans DONT have to be at work that long, could work more from home, and if they had a decent management structure at work they could take off an hour here, and hour there so long as the real work is done. David works a lot, but he can take his time off as he wants, right?
Life is tooooo short……. work for yourself and at least if you need a nap you can get it, otherwise you will work a lot but have time for that fart.
Take a long hard look at pre1960s America. Yes, there were hard times…..wars depression…….but through it all Americans became stronger, resiliant, & acheived the greatest standing of all countries in the world. We were superpowers in education, engineering, science, medicine, archtecture & invention. What changed after the 1960s that caused the gradual decline of American cities, schools, business, and a safe way of life?
In order to be a great country you must have like minded individuals with like minded goals. Similar people think similarly. The countries that have a better way of life today are countries that are not burdened with social identity or extreme differences from within. They think alike, therfore move forward. DIVERSITY is the answer to pre 1960s question. DIVERSITY is a lie. Open your history books & take a look at pre 1960s Detroit, Los Angelas, New Orleans, & St. Louis to name a few. There has always been crime, but nothing on the scale of what DIVERSITY has brought to us. More crime, means more prisons, that means more taxes. Not to mention policing & neighborhood rebuilding.
Schools? Hmmm….massive bussing, extra gas, more bus drivers, more time travel for kids, more taxes to cover these costs in the name of DIVERSITY has yeilded NO RESULTS. The blacks kids are just as dumb as ever. Before you start calling me racist names -answer this? If there was massive Black & Hispanic people overtaking of your neighborhood would you stay? Would you send your kids to that gang ridden school? Living in that high crime violence heighborhood? No, you would jump on the white flight bandwagon, all the while saying DIVERSITY is good…..As you move to your new lily whte neighborhhod with new schools, or private schools. What has toppled many of the greatest countries throughout history like Rome & Greece? DIVERSITY.
Business? Let me see- I can hire the most qualified people or I can hire SOME qualified people & be burdened with LAWS that require me to hire less qualified people because of DIVERSITY. Will my company be better? No. Every aspect of American culture has been diseased with the DIVERSITY lie. People are completely brainwashed by the media that what is killing you is good for you. Like minded people think alike, DIVERSITY brings opposite minds & tries to convince them to think alike. There are obvious genetic differences in race. No different people will cometely think alike, & that is not a good thing no matter what the brainwashing propaganda media preaches. Is your neighborhood, school, economy better now that we are overrun with minorities? The worlds population is 8% white, yet you have been brainwashed that you are the majority because you dont see the other 92% daily. Yes America was mostly white & yes we were great. Most of the world is not white, in fact 92% of the world is brown. Ever think that because we were white is why we were great? Obviously, Immigration & DIVERSITY is ruining American Society. Hmmm…..I already know there some narrow minded people that will call me ignorant. Doesnt Ignorant mean “to not know” Based on what I have seen in a long lifetime, & what history teaches us, the truly ignorant are the ones that continue to swallow the DIVERSITY lie – you truly dont know.
In order to be a great country you must have like minded individuals with like minded goals. Similar people think similarly. The countries that have a better way of life today are countries that are not burdened with social identity or extreme differences from within. China is Chinese people – not a melting pot. Greece & Rome would take in multitudes of other countries afflicted when they conquered them, that ended up being their greatest calamity – no loyalty, different thoughts – they toppled.
History teaches us, & surely My Grandfather & my Father didnt fight In WWI & WWII so I could work & pay for a Illegal Mexican family free health care & education. Nor did it fight so I could watched the degradation of entire American cities like Los Angelas & Detroit by thug gangsters that only desire is to Rap & play B-ball. They fought for me & my future generations. Seperatism is the only way out of this mess. No violence, No arguments, simply leave whites alone, we dont need the brown races for a single thing. NOTHING.
Dr. Phil is welcome to his opinions-
but, why must he hide behind a pen name?
It just proves why Dayton needs a law to enforce equal protection from bigots like “Dr. Phil”
Except their oil as Mexico alone provides America with 10% of daily gluttony. How about we leave the brown people alone first and try live without their oil. I like to see how that “would work out for ya” Dr. Phil
Actually, “Dr. Phil” has kind of a point in the beginning of his diatribe (although I certainly do not agree with any of the “leave the white folks alone” rhetoric!!).
Back in the “old days” when people immigrated to America, it was to become Americans. They struggled to learn English and to assimilate. True, they kept some of their old world customs which often became part of the greater American culture. Today it seems as though the immigrants are coming here and not even trying to assimilate into the country. Advocates for these people then insist that special tutors come into the classroom and teach these kids in their own languages (many California schools teach in over 40 languages and dialects). This hampers the kids success and inhibits their ability to truly become American. This is in stark contrast to the mid-50’s when my aunt came here from Germany, not speaking a word of English. She and her twin sister were enrolled in the public schools and expected to learn English and become American. And they did it with pride.
There are too many people out there today that come to this country to leach off of her instead of contributing to her.
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation of all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.” Teddy Roosevelt.
^
I disagree. What makes places like Chicago and San Francisco so interesting is the hyphenation, the diversity.
There are a number of pathologies and social ails that afflict the populace of America. We have been made to believe that racism is bad or wrong, no matter what. This is the moral compass by which we measure the worth of a human being. Now you can delude yourself in believing that everyone group is equal, while you simultaneously justifying your fleeing to the white areas of the globe, and you can tell yourself Dr. Phil is an idiot, which he is, but it will not change the reality of the lies that have been told to America for the last 50 years. The West will soon be at the mercy of the absolutists and the criminals of the world. The collapse of the United States is written in the stars. Within your lifetime the effects of these race egalitarian counter-culture ideologies(which have many strong philosophical components) will be felt throughout the white areas of the world, and whites will either fight and then consolidate their lands, or they will perish from the earth. Make no mistake, however, ladies and gentlemen, the generation before me will be responsible for the terrible consequences of these tremendous race denial lies, even if they never reap what they have sown. Now diversity of thought can have its values as Dr. Phil is reluctant to point out, but mostly when it is in use to refine, as a calculated departure from opinion towards truth, and not when it is espousing the equivalence of all ideology or all people. You can not value a meter and throw away the meter stick. The United States abandoned reason for sentiment, and we are now just waking up to the disgusting world we created. And what was most directly responsible for all of this? So, though a panoply of factors were at work, the most responsibility falls on the shoulders of these free-thinking race egalitarian liberals and their dark followers(pardon the pun) who have destroyed not only the future of all Americans but who soon will have brought down the economy as well. So, attention all people under 40, when you are running from your homeland, and if you are lucky enough to find respite in a progressive third world country, which hopefully such individuals who created this mess do not, take my advice and vote for the direct limiting of populations that if left culturally unfettered will only push untruths, hostility, social problems, and dysgenics down the throat of your nation’s future. Call me a racist, but I am just a realist, so I guess that makes me a race realist. Now you can deny it right up until your girlfriend is raped, or your son or daughter killed, but it is written in the stars.
Despite what they have told you, to deny the probability of it occurring, that is what is immoral.
It would be comical to ignore race (yes, it exists) issues when discussing America’s rapid descent into third world status, although race problems are really just a small symptom of a larger and more fundamental socio-culturo-politico-economico-etcetera-o ailment that has been slowly manifesting itself in the West for quite some time now.
Is it any coincidence that all third world nations consist primarily of the same racial populations that do so poorly in first world nations, where they are even given preferential treatment by their supposedly racist and exploitative host populations? Am I evil for noticing this? Lol. However, it is just as comical to blame, for instance, Mexicans for fleeing their own dysfunctional country to come here. They come because the West, and America especially, has fallen victim to the self-destructive slave morality that was first introduced in the form of Christianity thousands of years ago. “Blessed are the meek, the poor, the hungry, the thoughtless, the passive, the sick, the incompetent, those with poor grammar, etc. Only the powerful, the capable, the happy, the self-sufficient, are evil.” Is this Marx or Jesus speaking? I tend to get them confused myself. Have the rabble yet inherited the earth? Just about. Are you happy now? Didn’t think so.
Modern secular egalitarianism is really just the same dogmatic, jealous and bigoted hatred of the sane, strong, healthy and capable that was the real root of much of Christian “morality.” Race is only a small issue when compared to the monumental threat that “tolerance,” “equality,” and “open-mindedness” pose to any society that takes such childish concepts seriously. Big macs and ding-dongs are not equal to healthy, natural, tasty food. Britney, eminem, and fifty-cent are not equal to Beethoven, Bach, and Brahms. “Married with children,” “Sex and the City,” and and “Friends” are not equal to the writings of Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Confucious or Goethe. Men and women have different temperaments, bodies, reproductive roles, interests, abilities, etc. Smoking crack while watching T.V. is not equal to composing a symphony that will inspire others for ages to come. War for Israel, globalism and neocons is not equal to war for legitimate national interest. Divorced with seventeen kids on welfare is not equal to married with a functional family. Oh no! Am I being close-minded? I should only hope so. America is hopeless because it has declared war of intolerance on the “intolerant”, the discriminating, and the close-minded guardians of sane civil society. Long live the Japanese, those wonderful close-minded bigots. America, the world is laughing at you and your “diversity.”
Is this thing on?
I like the subtle connection you have drawn between the “slave morality” or multi-culturalism / modern secular egalitarianism and christianity— Quite enlightening really. I would, however, not say that race is but a small factor in this equation. Long live Nietzsche, Confucius, Shakespeare and, of course, Beethoven, and may all men with such refined tastes, such as yourself, always have a rightful and safe place to reside on this ideologically diseased planet. I fear you may have to fight for this—and how I wish it were not so.
Thanks for complimenting my tastes, but I don’t know how much credit I can take for noticing that Beethoven is musically superior to 50 cent, etc. In a healthy society, this would be taken for granted, but we are not living in a healthy society, as you have pointed out. As you said above, “Now diversity of thought can have its values as Dr. Phil is reluctant to point out, but mostly when it is in use to refine, as a calculated departure from opinion towards truth, and not when it is espousing the equivalence of all ideology or all people. You can not value a meter and throw away the meter stick.” Well said. Most people seem to think that aristocratic societies of the past were entirely free from intelligent debate on all issues, when in reality they were free from the incessant, dogmatic and hostile babble of partisan idiots who are not much interested in the truth or falsity of their claims, but merely repeat what they hear on T.V. or whatever suits their fragile emotional needs. Compare America’s earliest political debates to her latest televised travesties, brought to you by Tampax tm. In America, “everyone has a right to their opinion,” really means that intelligent, knowledgable people do not have a right to speak the truth, because someone may be offended by it. Your opinion does not matter because it is cancelled out by the differing opinions of a thousand morons with no knowledge of the subject being discussed. This is the “freedom” brought to us by equality.
It is a shame that, for instance, Beethoven’s music has yet to be bested by another’s, despite ample time for this to happen. But really, what can we expect in a society where the capable must expend all of their time and energy in efforts to shield themselves from the societal damage inflicted by idiots run amok. If Beethoven or Nietszche were alive today, they would probably be too busy with society’s endless stream of irrelevant but unavoidable nonsense to ever fulfill their real potential. Although Nietzsche would probably have a field day as a comedian or satirist living in America, the sort of society that he predicted would evolve, based on the Europe’s trajectory when he was alive.
When I say race issues are but a small symtom of a larger problem, I don’t mean race is insignificant, but rather that if the larger problem is not dealt with, we are doomed anyhow, racially seperate or not. There are plenty of dumb and dysfunctional white people out there, and these are, if uninhibited, much more dangerous than any outside group could ever be. Any society that does not maintain basic standards, preferring superior to inferior, reasonable to unreasonable, in every sense and situation, will collapse under the weight of its own dysfunction, no matter the ancestry of its people. I have no real hostility towards blacks who want to live amongst blacks in Africa, or even blacks who find themselves frustrated with their lack of self-determination as a people in America. Of course, liberals and neo”conservatives” don’t really care much about blacks or any other group they self-righteously act on behalf of, with disastrous consequences for everyone involved. They tend to project their own deep seated hostility and feelings of inferiority onto others, assuming, for instance, that all racists or separatists are motivated by an irrational desire to harm others, rather than a desire to live unencumbered by continuous internal conflict, a lack of common values, endless lowering of societal standards to accomodate all people, etc. Is self-preservation a crime? Why don’t we let America’s leftist “elites” have their own seperate society amongst all the “oppressed” peoples of the world? Surely they wouldn’t object, since all people are equal anyhow, right? Why argue when we can just let them experience the consquences of their insane ideas directly, rather than evading responsibility for bad results, all while advocating more of the problem as a solution?
“Long live Nietzsche, Confucius, Shakespeare and, of course, Beethoven, and may all men with such refined tastes, such as yourself, always have a rightful and safe place to reside on this ideologically diseased planet. I fear you may have to fight for this—and how I wish it were not so.” What makes you assume I am a man? I’m actually a transexual black midget lesbian. And as a pacifist, I believe it is evil to fight for anything if there is a chance one’s aggressor might get hurt. Just kidding! Lol. America’s impending financial collapse and Balkanized infighting might not be such a bad thing, as it may leave room for something more functional and sane to take it’s place, all while presenting an example of what not to do to the rest of the world. Reality will punish those who ignore it, so don’t worry too much about the problems created by fools.
John – How’s life? Come off the high brow selections, while excellent choices – history is long and you have 4 white entertainers and then you compare them to 50 (he ain’t worth a quarter) cent? Somewhat of a straw man argument for “a transexual black midget lesbian.” Post some video of your action for us morons.
I think you are missing my point, Greg. Indeed, there are better musicians than 50-cent alive and kicking in America, but none that I know of have demonstrated a more complete mastery of counterpoint than Bach, or created a more inspiring and impressive set of works than Beethoven composed, even while deaf. Why does Britney Spear’s music sell in record numbers, while classical music is so often considered irrelevant and “elitist” in the modern, derogatory sense of the term. I think this suggests a general decline in standards, as well as a decline in ability. As for my “4 white entertainers,” they are not “mine”, Confucious is not white, and none of these men would have considered themselves “entertainers.”
Perhaps you assume I am trying to associate myself with history’s greats in order to create an air of superiority, in which case you can rest at ease, as I am not that interested in what anonymous internet dwellers think or don’t think of me. If you read my entire post you would see that I was discussing America’s decline into a third world country, the topic of this thread. When a culture no longer produces high quality art, achetecture, philosophy, etc., you can be sure that other symtoms of decline are sure to follow, if they are not already present. Even the most deluded egalitarian must admit that American pop culture stinks to high heaven. But hey, everthing is relative, right?
You might object, saying that you prefer this or that modern musician to Bach, but I doubt this or that musician would be capable of producing, under the objective standards of counterpoint, such high quality compositions, much less as prolifically as he did. I could not, I assure you. Even if I had the talent, I would be too busy trying to get by in a society that is generally hostile to everything but grovelling mediocrity. When everything is evauluated in terms of immediate economic gain or loss, there is no place for real culture, although there will be plenty of entertainment to prevent most people from realizing that their function as cogs in an inhuman machine has robbed their lives of any real purpose.
You also seem to assume that I discussed “4 white guys” as a display of racial chauvinism. Asside from the fact that Confucious is not white, we are discussing America, which, until very recently (since the hippies took over), has been considered an extention of European civilization. America is the extreme end of European decadence; her situation cannot be understood outside of the context of European history, politics, culture, etc. I think the superiority of Europe’s past achievements, contrasted with our recent commercialized pop culture, cannot be ignored or explained away by an appeal to subjectivity.
That said, I would have I hard time finding an African equivalent of Beethoven, and I refuse to apologize for that fact. I still prefer John Coltrane to Britney Spears or Garth Brooks, but I don’t think that mutes the overwhelming disparity between the achievements of, say, Africa, Asia, and Europe. It is typical of those who want to ignore reality to latch on to rare exceptions, ambiguities, sentimentalism, and semantic trickery, but general trends, whether cultural, racial, economic, etc. are hard to ignore. Those who want to deconstruct everything they dislike are generally reluctant to deconstruct their own assumptions and ideologies, thus revealing the real impulse behind their overzealous skepticism. Even putting superiority and inferiority aside, there are many other coherent and humane arguments for racial seperation, few of which are ever addressed by egalitarian idealogues. Will blacks ever reach their potential living in America? Relationships of dependency and co-dependency are generally demeaning and limiting for both parties involved. Why seek least-common-denominator compromise between two very different groups when separation allows both independence, autonomy, and relative freedom?
I am curious what you think would happen if multiculturism were not forcefully implemented on a world wide scale? Why must it be implemented, despite few plausible benefits and a host of things that could very predictably go awry? And especially when we are already talking about “America becoming a third world country.” The solution: import more unskilled third world people into our welfare state and refuse to demand assimilation? I am open to suggestions in defense of this solution.
Your point about aristocratic society is well noted, however, an aristocratic society crumbles when all people and all groups demand equal say and influence. The political movements of the 20th century are all directly related to this outcome. When everybody enters, everybody demands equality, without first realizing that they are not evaluating equality on a societal scale, but rather are demanding it on a personal one. This is the first step on the path of devolution. When every group demands equal rights, then equal income, then equal status, and finally their own full blown version of egalitarianism, where these very self-interested and self-determining ideologies dictate the path society travels, without regard to the path it should travel, then you end up with America. You see, the Jews, the blacks, and really all “minority” groups operate in a self-defining and self-sustaining manner and they do so under the veil of legitimacy, because those in academia and those in power have deemed all whites to be evil if they congregate, whereas all other groups do so without their motives being questioned. ‘Tis but another double standard. So, by working to define morality with their new found power bestowed upon them by anti-absolute and superindividualistic westernness, morality seeks to serve the interests of these groups. Similarly, the postmodern era feeds the foundations of this ideology’s foothold on society by overcoming itself, without also expecting all other groups or societies to do so. So it appears to be superiority which has killed us, not inferiority. Though I can only wonder, if it kills something bad for a small good which integrates with the present to forge a future worse, does the overall good override the overall bad(calculated at an selected instantaneous moment in the future when the effects of such action are worn off, though they never are, so we should say compounded to infinity)? The answer is, probably not, though it is difficult to see as the best disguised poisons kill slowly and discreetly and the greatest goods play out in the far future. So, how smart is the western world? Smart enough to create an interesting idea, but not smart enough to foresee its outcome with a great one. That is, it is smarter than the rest of the world, without in advance realizing this, and so still not all that brilliant. That probably does not say too much for the future of humanity does it?
I think we are on the same page and I will read your response in more detail, but I get the sense that you lionize the past, while in reality their were just as many morons back in the day; however, the sophisticated, rich helped classical music become the Pop music of the day. I would also contend that “some” rap music shows a distinct talent to use sophisticated references to cultural and musical icons that seem to transcend the people that make it popular.
“I get the sense that you lionize the past, while in reality their were just as many morons back in the day”
It is true that there have always been morons, but decadent societies like our own tend to handle morons in an extremely counterproductive way, simultaneously cultivating and exploiting stupidity for personal financial profit and giving stupid people large amounts of unaccountable power and influence. George Bush would have probably been harmlessly picking potatoes or shoveling dung in any good aristocratic society of the past. Populist ideologues are generally too reluctant to blame the ever-innocent electorate for electing a long line of miserable failures to office; they never question the value of the electorate’s opinion in general! George Bush is in many ways truly representative of the American populace, as difficult as that is for any non-misanthrope to admit. Power to the people!??? There must be a better way.
Do I lionize the past? Well, I try not to, but perhaps I am merely advocating a lesser of several evils, in a certain sense. I am not a big believer in utopias, past, present, or future. Nor do I view the world through the confused, dogmatic and dishonest spectacles of what is called “morality,” whether that of secular humanism or religious belief. Most of humanity’s problems would be best analyzed coolly and objectively, as if through the eyes of an alien anthropologist from the planet Zordoc or something. Moralistic manipulators, “leftist” or “rightist” or whateverist often have very different motives than their rhetoric would suggest, and America is largely in the hands of such manipulators and their followers. Rather than measure a society by its adherence to arbitrary rules of conduct invented by utopian dreamers, we should look at the observable real world results of a given arrangement (ignoring false rhetoric claiming non-existent results). Using this method, the U$A falls short in many ways, all while advertizing itself as the model to which all who are not evil, despotic or insane must conform.
We talk about our legendary freedoms, but the U.S. has one of the most convoluted, arbitrary, intrusive, incompetent and inconsistent legal systems currently in existence, along with a gargantuan prison population. Bureaucracy, lawyers, pointless jobs, micromanagement, thoughtless conformity and misguided moralism are some the real “enemies of freedom” (terrorists, not so much), to the extent that freedom is even a good thing. Everyone wants limitless freedom for themselves, while simultaneously wanting to avoid responsibility for failures and wanting to limit the freedom of anyone who might get in their way. So much for freedom. We talk about our wealth, but all of our “wealth” is borrowed at interest from other fiscally responsible countries and from future generations that have been sold into slavery. America doesn’t produce much of anything, besides entertainment and paperwork, of course. Yet everyone complains about how busy they are. Accomplishing what? Things that were once trivially affordable, like land, are now expensive through the magic of scarcity, and are subjected to endless taxation. Wealthy societies don’t tax the hell out of the citizenry with nothing but failure, debt and corruption to show for it. Multiculturism? I see only one culture in America and it stinks, as would any culture that must be dumbed down for the consumption of the diverse, distracted and hedonistic masses. Equality? For those who want to endorse equality, ask yourself whether you want to be considered equal to the noblest or the most degenerate, equally great or equally pathetic. It is easy to hold back the capable, but the hopeless cannot be made great so easily.
“however, the sophisticated rich helped classical music become the Pop music of the day.”
Where are our sophisticated rich? Our “Nuevo riche” promote whatever is most profitable: shoddy, cheap, simplistic, disposable, image-oriented. In better societies, the rich cared about art and culture and subsidized those who had the most potential to create it, not those who would make the most money. Who loses in such an arrangement? The soulless profiteers and bureaucratic parasites, maybe.
correction: “picking potatoes” I’m not sure if this is possible.
“I would also contend that some rap music shows a distinct talent to use sophisticated references to cultural and musical icons that seem to transcend the people that make it popular.”
I’m not sure if we are supposed to be posting links, so go to youtube and type “read a book mos def” for a rap song with animation (parody) that samples a Beethoven sonata and offers some useful advice, although some may find it offensive. Contains some profanity.
In response to your last post, John(if that is your name… haha), I’m going to use your genius against you because I dearly admire some of your off-hand seeming aphorisms and I just must take the opportunity to use one: It is typical of those who want to ignore reality to latch on to rare exceptions, ambiguities, sentimentalism, and semantic trickery, but general trends, whether cultural, racial, economic, etc. are hard to ignore.
I understand the vitiated and wilted nature of humanity as well as anyone, but I can not concede that the leaps and bounds of science in information and nutrition that have led to such things as the Flynn effect would have been received by all groups equally. That is to say, I can’t help but suspect that a massive dysgenic trend in the United States has starved our potential in our greatest hour. Resources have been squandered inappropriately without regard for a more holistic approach to the problems that face humanity. Diversity has everything to do with humanity’s condition today. I may overestimate the state of affairs and the quality of men in the past, but i charge that you underestimate what could have been the realities of the present without such crippling ideologies and trends.
And yes, our greed infested society is nauseating and infectious to progressive societies. We were once taught that the talented and intelligent rise to the top and prosper. Welcome to America, 2008, and to believe that you must be either a blind conservative, a delusional liberal, or a common American.
Or like most people on this site, probably need a little bit of all three.
“I can’t help but suspect that a massive dysgenic trend in the United States has starved our potential in our greatest hour… Diversity has everything to do with humanity’s condition today…
I charge that you underestimate what could have been the realities of the present without such crippling ideologies and trends.”
I rarely quote the Bible, but “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” Simple enough, right? Diversity has its place in every natural ecosystem, but the diversity advocated by hippies and politicians has little to do with evolved diversity of function in nature. Even in a racially homogenous society, common values, common goals, etc. are absolutely necessary if anything is to be accomplished besides endless bickering and ego gratification. Imagine a society where all energies were unified and directed towards common goals, rather than chaotically canceling each other out. If common goals cannot be agreed upon and pursued, there is no real organic basis for a healthy society to build upon, and separation into relatively unified groups is the only sane option. Better small and coherent than large and divided. Why base a society on compromise, a situation where all societal functions are rendered meaningless and self-referential, because they have no overarching purpose? The current diverse population of the U.S. will never be able to agree on anything meaningful, and therefore the potential that many people have will be wasted on the irrelevant.
Remember those kids in school who always complained about everyone separating into little cliques. “Why can’t we all just be one big group of friends?” Because people with nothing in common will not be able to work together on anything, or even decide what to work towards. I say let the Trekies hang out with the Trekies, the cheerleaders with the cheerleaders, jocks with jocks, and so forth. Don’t make the jocks play dungeons and dragons with the Trekies. It just doesn’t work out well for anyone. When diversity is enforced, people revert to passivity and least-common-denominator activities like television, excessive boozing, eating junk food, playing the stock market, etc. Those who profit from such consumption oriented behaviors will love diversity, contrary to the assumption that predatory capitalism is inherently racist.
“So it appears to be superiority which has killed us, not inferiority.”
In a way, maybe. Have we outsmarted ourselves? Extremely large, wealthy and successful societies have a tendency to become soft and lose direction, tolerating parasites and destructive behavior (because it can so easily absorb the damage), at first in small amounts, but eventually degenerate hucksterism becomes the law of the land. A society where every member is trying to exploit every other member will eventually have nothing left to exploit, hence the wasted potential you refer to. Is that what you were getting at, or have I misunderstood your post? Do you think dysgenics is largely a product of lack of direction and division? Eugenics implies some sort of goal, I think.
Well, your point about excessive self-interest is valuable and accurate with regards to the situation in contemporary America, but what I was talking about was the acceleration of intelligence in the United States, accelerating at a slower rate than it might have because of the dysgenic trends occurring— i.e. the lower amount of starting potential or birth g. Dysgenics is certainly a product of lack of direction and division but essentially it’s the general trend that people with below average intelligence are outbreeding people with above average intelligence, and being supported by a system which demands no accountability, for the interest of posterity. This system basically ensures societal dysgenics.(Not to mention medicine, which is also genetically debilitating, without the capability to treat ailments for successive generations) As for your statement about common goals and reason backed standards, I agree on some level, but I am, however, not convinced that eugenics and future genetic engineering technologies will not be capable of fusing together the different qualities of various different groups to maximize human capabilities, and eventually cohesion. That is, I’m not ready to accept that people of different “races” are not capable of establishing or maintaining progressive societies, even today to some extent, so long as the gap between these groups is not inordinate, and direction is embedded. So yes, direction is necessary, but as more of an unspoken, underlying ideology that guides more than any personal or or self-interested endeavor. So what is the point of my rant? The destruction of American society is a byproduct of departure from truth, not morality, or direction. We have and still are unable to accept the differences between races to accept them and treat them through societal engineering, and instead, we justify them with loads of misled research and philosophy, ignoring the importance of truth. That is the state of the commercial age. We live under the reign of vacuous sentimentalities, catch phrases, and forced egalitarianism, despite the reality of the present situation. Any point, no matter how unsupported is equivalent to all other points, no matter how supported. Self-interested groups and self-identifying people are destructive because they base their goals and understandings around themselves, rather than around holistic truth. The individual groups and subcultures in America are the most self-interested and self-identifying of all, and many, besides whites, are actually expected to be, with their behaviors being reinforced by lacking societal standards for all non-whites. Just look at the black community! Every joke is about being black, every outfit about expressing and proving blackness, and frankly, I would say a very large part of their culture is more about reactionary attitudes to white belief systems and rule, than a commitment to virtually anything else, including reason. So, let it resonate off the ears of the cogitating and the dreamers who have warped their dreams so, that if we could get our hands around truth, we could get our hands around bettering the future of humanity.
I guess that depends on what you consider is an accomplishment! Becoming Beethoven great for some people; three squares and some love for others. What is the definition of accomplishment?
Everybody is just trying to be happy; sometimes at others expense, which is rationalized away, but we are unified and directed. I will admit that we need to direct society in a manner that stabilizes the pillage of the earth, but other than that live and let live. I assume that you will take that as a Hippy statement, but man to live in the Ivory Tower, without some compassion for those with less talents is heartless and frankly Germanic. :)
The human race does not really want equality – just enough of the appearance of equality to soothe one’s conscience. The human race relentlessly pursues an imbalance that favors one group over another. It is who we are.
We lack the ability for true equality – and Americans, more so. Every human finds a reason to look down on a group they find disagreement with. We do not want equality. We want the chance to be better than someone else. That is the American Dream.
There are many humorous things in the world: among them the white man’s notion that he is less savage than the other savages.
– Mark Twain, “Following the Equator”
“I am, however, not convinced that eugenics and future genetic engineering technologies will not be capable of fusing together the different qualities of various different groups to maximize human capabilities, and eventually cohesion. That is, I’m not ready to accept that people of different “races” are not capable of establishing or maintaining progressive societies, even today to some extent, so long as the gap between these groups is not inordinate, and direction is embedded.”
Unless you accidentally used a double negative (one too many “not”s), I take it you are saying different races or groups can exist productively within the same society, so long as differences are openly acknowledged, value judgments about differences are not taboo, and common direction allows them to work and breed towards non-conflicting goals? I have toyed with similar ideas myself, although I have mixed feelings about it. It is true that all races are the product of a certain amount of historical admixture, although never on the scale that is being advocated today, and never under such dysgenic circumstances as only modern society allows. Evolutionary psychology teaches us that different “tribal” groups, when competing for limited resources and status within the same society, will tend to develop strategies, open or concealed, for resource domination, thus resulting in conflict and an inability to have common goals. Truth is often one of the first casualties in this conflict.
Many of the egalitarian ideologies developed in the 20th century can be viewed as products of such aforementioned conflicts, not as products of a “will to truth.” Most of these ideologies, such as radical feminism, Marxism, Freudian psychology, Boasian anthropology, in fact, nearly the whole of leftism in general (even neo-conservatism), were initially developed and propagated by Jewish intellectuals with Jewish identities, although the ideologies themselves are advertised as universalistic and unrelated to specifically Jewish or minority interests. This has resulted in an unprecedented shift of resources and status away from the once dominant European majority, in favor of Jews especially, although other “minority” groups have benefited from the shift in ideology, accepted morality and public policy. It is doubtful that such silly and demonstrably false ideas would have developed spontaneously amongst any homogeneous ethnic group, as there would be no strategic reason for them to exist and no real-world evidence to support them. A detailed description of this process can be found in Kevin MacDonald’s “The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements.”
My point is that different groups with different identities may have trouble putting differences aside (much less one group accepting an inferior status), given that mankind is driven by primal evolutionary impulses that won’t be going away anytime soon, although it is probably possible, with great effort and cost, to overcome such impulses (not eliminate them) if the prospective reward is great enough. The question is, then, what would be the reward, and would it equally benefit all groups involved? What would blacks stand to gain by accepting racial differences, even if they can be proven to exist? I suspect that the acceptance of truth that you say is crucial to humanity’s future will be hindered by each group’s evolutionary drive towards dominance, truth be damned.
That said, there are indeed many highly intelligent Jews and East Asians with whom interbreeding with intelligent Europeans would not necessarily result in stupid or incapable offspring, although other complications might result. Putting all societal, cultural and political implications aside, I would probably sooner breed (how romantic!) with an intelligent and attractive Jew or Asian woman than with a functionally retarded and deformed Dutchwoman. However, for something like this to take place on a massive scale would be unwise unless all identity and victimhood politics, now a defining feature of American life, were out of the picture, as well as several massive dysgenic trends being reversed. Also, this would hinder the continuation of European culture and civilization as an independent entity, as it would Asian and especially Jewish culture (Jews are especially adamant about remaining separate, despite their tendency to demonize any other group that wants to remain separate, especially Europeans.)
I could go on for quite a while about the possibilities, as it’s an interesting subject, but most of it would be wild speculation, and I’m not sure racial mixture was even what you were talking about. Although I’m sure most of the hippies on this forum would love the idea. :) Just keep in mind that there is no such thing as “free love.” :(
“I guess that depends on what you consider is an accomplishment! Becoming Beethoven great for some people; three squares and some love for others. What is the definition of accomplishment?”
We could quibble over definitions, but no matter how broadly we define “accomplishment,” it should be clear that some accomplishments are more impressive and fruitful than others. Would you like to live in a society where the most impressive accomplishment is putting food on the table? Show me a country that regularly produces Beethovens and Da Vincis, and I’ll bet they have no problems putting food on the table. In fact, the cuisine will probably be delectable and nutritious. :)
“but man to live in the Ivory Tower, without some compassion for those with less talents is heartless and frankly Germanic.”
Do you have a dislike for Germans? You are probably watching The History Channel (also known as “The Hitler Channel”) too much.:) Despite popular beliefs to the contrary, I think it is actually more difficult for those with fewer talents to empathize with their superiors than visa versa. Why is it that the chubby, homely girl always secretly despises the captain of the cheerleading squad, even if she is treated well by her? Jealousy, along with an impotent inability to change the situation often creates a hatred and desire for revenge and dominance that most well-constituted people wouldn’t even understand. Exceptionally intelligent people often have to purposely hide or at least subdue their intelligence when dealing with dullards, so as to avoid undesired attention, hurt feelings, starting pointless conflicts, and arousing hatred. With rare exceptions, and especially in work and family situations, intelligent people are almost forced to lead a double-life. Of course, there are also intelligent jerks, but I think those are the minority, because it is more difficult to notice smart people who are overly modest. In many ways, stupidity and insensitivity can be conducive to happiness, especially in society that glorifies mediocrity and apish behavior. So I wouldn’t worry too much about the tards; they are probably enjoying themselves more than enough already.
“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” -Ernest Hemingway
Of course, stupid people wouldn’t be nearly so well off if it weren’t for the collective benefits that come from the accomplishments of rare geniuses, who often receive little for their immeasurable contributions to humanity. Society would cease to function entirely if it weren’t for the small minority who really keep things running. In fact, some speculate that civilizations often fail due to, among other factors, decline of average genetically endowed intelligence below the level necessary to keep things from falling apart.
Although I don’t advocate any moral system that revolves solely around the well-being of the least capable, I think my position can be defended even from this limited standpoint. If the incapable are to reap the benefits made possible by the most capable, the best societal arrangement would be one that gives the most influence to the most capable, while also limiting the influence of those who would muck up everything they touch. This need not be done bureaucratically. Of course, talents are a matter of degree and type, so there wouldn’t be just one omnipotent dictator ruling over a group of slaves and concubines, if that’s what you think I’m suggesting. There should be some flexibility and holistic/merit-based social mobility within the system, but not so much that destructive egotards like Bush or Clinton can claw their way to the top using money, media, and popular demagoguery.
I suppose we all have primary causes of why we have evolved to our current state; one that allows “supposed” weaker genetics to continue to proliferate. I cannot argue the fine points of the arguments presented by John and Anthony, I can say that in my own experience I have not worried about whether the human race will produce superior intellects that propel us forward. It is by chance that these individuals are produced and they have a tendency to be produced from humble (middle class) atmospheres. These “greats” have not sired on greats, per say, although I will not rule out that some degree of intelligence is inherited, the greats have come up by chance, and then, by chance again, born into a setting that nurtured the greatness. I would contend that Society’s standards for public education and funding has weakened over the years, limiting the chance for potential greats to arise from meager circumstances. I was born a poor white boy to modest parents, whose parents parents never got a chance to go to school and I feel I am intelligent. I also empathize with the argument that mediocre Rich have an inordinate influence over society as their off spring are placed in positions beyond their capabilities. I understand the frustration with mediocrity in thought as well as appreciation for the craftsmen that produce fine, long lived products. The human should strive for the finest use of talents, but not so much that they do not love the humanity that shines in all, even the most untalented. I have also come to recognize that some people are suppose to work and some are suppose to make work enjoyable, so yes, like the farmer, the disproportionate few are carrying the rest of us around.
Now, how do societies provide enough structure to produce people that are propelling society “forward”? Farming?. I would contend that farming’s enemy is the hunter gatherer society which from an “evolutionary argument”, is further advanced in the European sphere than the other societies around the world. This “advancement” makes us the judge of whether societies are “civilized” and the degree that people are not “civilized” as compared to the European history, these people are considered dumb and can be cast aside, much like the Native Americans. So the argument about quality of civilizations and genetics has gone on for Century’s with the powerful always defeating the weak.
Germans – I always bring up the Germans, because they are the archetype for how these types of discussions have played out in the past. Industrious, Philosophical Quality driven individuals that brook very little dissent.
The archaeologists and anthropologists and the vast majority of the intelligentsia in universities around the country swamped by neo-liberals and neo-liberal propaganda and PC, superior to the right-wing, but inferior to great minds, suffer from wanton short sightedness. To call the industrial revolution or the agricultural revolution a step backwards is an argument that borders on the brink of insanity. It is similar to calling medicine or any scientific endeavor a step backwards. The step backwards is the unitary, and not holistic practice and implementation of this knowledge— not the knowledge or skill itself! These people are so incredibly ignorant, that they earnestly believe that the primitive people they study have better lives than people in the west do. They offer as their argument, the spiritual and intellectual struggles of the west, and the fact that indigenous groups do not want to join modern society. I can put these arguments to rest right now: Indigenous people do not want to join modern society because they have no experience in it. It is is foreign and so they fear it. All people fear what is foreign, especially those who live their lives by anxiety, emotion, superstition, and cannot rightly even segregate between reason and the others.They have been raised not upon the principles of logic or reason, but upon superstition, and the belief in demons and spirits as a guide to happiness and morality. Nietzsche said that “a casual stroll through a insane asylum shows that faith proves nothing”. These environmentalists(like me), and these anthropologists rely on doomsday argument(among other weak arguments, especially in the realm of morality) that western society is unsustainable, evil, and will collapse under its own weight. This brash and supposition filled conjecture that we are all doomed, is sufficient proof for these people that they should go on believing in their ideologies of universal equality. (It even lends credence to their race-egalitarian lies, about the equivalence of all groups. If one of these lies fell off, it might be like a domino effect. Their psyches are so unstable) And so they reinforce the doctrine of non-truth without collecting fully the objective pleasure of these people, which simply cannot be summed up in only socially enforced pleasures. That is, starving people are not happy, even if you tell them that it is good to be starving, because not eating is something valued in that society. Their shortsightedness is a byproduct of not comparing their condition to others wisely. They are like the people who say medicine and pharmaceutics are necessarily and absolutely bad(not that they are not completely overprescribed and overused but one can not conclude that they are therefore always a negative influence on society). They can’t compare their ideas to the people who lived without pharmaceuticals 200 years ago and the children mothers lost, and the agony people went through when they were ill, and the colds which they died from. They can’t do so because they are confined by their own dispositions forged by their own experiences and understandings, compounded by the gradual changes in quality of life which often go overlooked by the unobservant. Greats are not more likely to be bred from humble middle-class atmospheres. It is simply that the vast majority of the people of the past were humble, poor, or middle class, and so, naturally, given their higher reproductive rates and much higher percentage of society, they gave rise to far more “greats”. (you) “will not rule out that some degree of intelligence is inherited”. Every scientific study ever conducted indicates that intelligence is heritable. To say you will not rule it out is madness. It is virtually fact. Everything about everyone is partially heritable. As for your reluctancy to concede this, I would say you have a bias, coming from a humble background. By conceding this you concede it may very well be likely that you, yourself, could be inferior, or are likely inferior, which is nothing more than a vicarious disposition, once misplaced. Likewise, your connection to humble backgrounds makes it easier for you to connect humble backgrounds with genius and success. Not that you are superior or inferior. I will let the great minds decide this, not myself. After all, I was born to white trash, so what can I really say, hehe. The idea is just maximizing the probability of great minds, as uncommon as they are, and minimizing the probability of mediocrity. Yes, the weak under natural circumstances, will be outwitted and outplayed by the societies of the genetically superior, but in the midst of a forced culture of egalitarianism, it would seem that the inferior are procreating at a faster rate and rushing into the areas of superiority at a moment of a weakness of understanding and unity in the west, and they are doing so directly under this very veil of ignorance and race-egalitarianism. So, under this moral relativistic bullshit are unequal societies drastically influencing the west, when the west and scientific advancement should be influencing other societies, as they do in India and the far east. But the Muslim, African, and central/south American world are irresponsible and spread lies and dishonest superstitions around their societies to fight against the tides of progression. Ironically, the inferiority of these civilizations can be mapped out, and so accurately predicted by their mean IQs(so much for the argument that IQ means nothing, lol), which men like Richard Lynn have provided for us. (Central, south America, 89, Muslim countries likely around 85/86, and Africa, 75.) So, not only can crime rate predictions be predicated on IQ, but so are the burden these groups place on the western world. Europe does not have an Indian problem. America does not have a Japanese problem. We have Muslim and Latin/black problems, correspondingly and specifically, and whoever does not acknowledge this is a liar to the world and to him/herself, whether they call it cultural or genetic. My point is simply that to rule out or discard genetic contribution is highly unlikely. This is what we are talking about. The infiltration of ludicrous ideals into the freest and most beautiful societies the world has ever seen, as ugly as they are. Just examine the differences in quality of life! Your lying to yourself calling all ideas equal. You can take the position that no morality should be enforced, but only if you’re willing to fight the groups that are trying steadfastly to enforce their own. White christians aren’t the only people with power. All people have power, and white people are not the only ones who wield it in ways people do not like. This is just the focus many have taken because their ideals permit it. Remember, saying no morality should be enforced is not the same as saying any should be. The west must realize this soon. I think I’ve shared what I’ve needed to share Greg. I implore you to just absorb this. John(lol) has much wisdom to share.
Long story short is you are ethnocentric and scientifically illiterate with arguments that have the appearance of validity due to the nuance. Bias points:
Hunter Gathers lived nasty, brutish and short lives filled with drudgery. BS
IQ is culturally biased.
Intelligence down a single tunnel does not make for good decisions in a well rounded society. This fact is proven time in again on the fields of battle and within team sports. Raw intelligence does not mean that great decisions are a natural result. The person with ability to harness the talents of a diverse group of people and drive them to a common goal is both intelligence and raw power (The Mule in the Foundation Series).
Science – You have no clue about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and how that equation will play out as society supposedly advances. To go back to the first point, we have exploited the Earth to the point that we can no longer advance to a level to escape this planet, but we, especially you, do not get it. This very simple concept is why your ethnocentric bs is a waste of time when there are more important team members to recruit. Much Love Andy and John. If you provide links to refute my bias points, so will I. Gtrdun! ;)
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ139349&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ139349
http://www.psychpage.com/learning/library/intell/biased.html
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=35526908#
There is essentially an endless amount of information to support either side of the argument. This is always the case with the unknowable nature of everything. Simply because things are unknowable does not render all understandings or systems without worth or without the ability to measure probability within a certain range of uncertainty. That short list I provided can continue onward all day, as i am sure yours can, citing books, scientific articles, research done etc. Sometimes we must leave the information up to the mind of the recipient of such information to compare and contrast that information with one’s own empirical data. I have always found the argument regarding modern psychometrics being more than slightly biased as really nothing more than specious argumentation to reinforce contemporary world views and to consolidate the influence of those who control those views. IQ tests are typically comprised of words in the native language of the test taker, mathematics(universal), and pattern recognition of shapes. The idea that certain people can not differentiate between triangles and squares by simple visuo-spacial recognition because of the culture in which they live, or understand the words used in their language, or math, is just not a strong argument, and is unsupported by the data. Gaps still do exist and they can not be explained away by bias or socioeconomic status for the most part, or without arguments that seem more like lengthy justifications that are particularly difficult to swallow. IQ test creators have worked on refining and perfecting tests to arguably eliminate cultural bias for the past 100 years or more, and much headway has been made in the last 20-30. I have no doubt that in the infancy of intelligence testing, IQ tests were significantly culturally biased, and the writings by Gould in the 80s and the many other very gifted philosophical minds who questioned the status quo of our understanding of intelligence were well supported at the time. The reality is, however, that IQ has all the indications of being a fairly objective analysis of one’s General Problem Solving ability today. The results are highly reproducible, and can explain a number of different aspects of a given society, including the income and advancement of the said society. That is, IQ tests are fruitful, in that they explain and predict a lot, and are also reproducible, in that they are measured accurately and within a measured range over and over again(even different tests and different types), indicating that they are measuring something very tangible. Ironically, IQ tests correlate very highly with overall “success” in life, and even more ironic, they predict the success of all groups of people equally. If they were somehow missing, overlooking, or not capable of capturing the intelligence of given individuals or groups this would not be the case, and you would see a performance gap minimization, which we do not. To call IQ or g “intelligence down a single tunnel” is really a cop out. The argument against Western reason is one with an extensively marred history in the academic community by many misinformed scholars, only willing to criticize those within their sphere of comfort. It is in many ways similar to the way in which western logic has been portrayed as linear or akin to outdated caucasoid ideology. What you are reluctant to realize is that reason and intelligence is not a byproduct of western industriousness alone, and that northeast Asians are often now beginning to outperform westerners not just economically but also on many forms of intelligence tests, hence proving, that intelligence is not a white or western phenomenon driven by western bias. They too are adopting similar objective standards for their understandings of the world, and this is no surprise as these ideas exist outside humanity and are more akin to truth than to disposition, and that is what any outside observer would expect to see. You are reluctant to realize that it is your ideologies which are now outdated or likely may be in the coming generation. This forum has and hopefully will remain a place for intelligent debate and discussion, and not a battle-ground for ad hominem attacks. As to whether my philosophical credentials merit the time or the consideration of my arguments, I will leave that up to the individual minds in the forum, and though it may be true that I am scientifically illiterate we will leave that up to the minds in the forum, and whether my words have weight or are just disguised in nuance, I will also leave up to the forum. And for the sake of rational debate, I will not retaliate with such attacks. There was no initial attack and if I could have avoided alluding to the self in my assertion of bias, I would have. I have never discounted the importance of environment on intelligence, but I would contend that the data I have collected indicate that intelligence is more innate than environmental. That is, smart people have a way of figuring things out, that dumb people do not. For the sake of simplicity I will leave this there. I have not therefore concluded that intelligence is not the corollary of a multitude of factors, or cognitive framings, just that those framings are in every way more related to the innate abilities of certain pattern recognition abilities to frame them in better ways or make better use of those resources and factors, so that reasoning ability supercedes environmental influence and makes its way into all elements of character and understanding. We talked about throwing the baby out with the bathwater earlier, though I am skeptical that you have read all of the posts on this website. You would like to throw out all intelligence testing because it is imperfect or somewhat biased(if it is), but who says it is not biased in the other direction? A bunch of neo-liberal race egalitarian university professors attempting to explain away historical and present intelligence related explanations of overall societal and individual performance and advancement? Whenever a professor publishes research regarding race differences, he is vilified and cast into disrepute. That must be a pretty good way to control the legitimacy of ideas, not just by controlling information through society’s sentiment, but also by discouraging professors from taking such positions. Why are the motives of race researchers questioned from a moralistic standpoint, whereas those doing everything they can to disprove such ideas are not? Is science not the pursuit of truth? Since when was morality more important in the scientific community than this overarching goal? I don’t think that the parameters of intelligence testing are perfect but so either is language, at which point this argument would cease to continue by the standards of certain people. I really hate to use this point, in my diatribe of reason not logic oriented incoherent writing(hehe), but if all understandings are imperfect then so too is one’s understanding of understandings at which point the argument falls off. The second law of thermodynamics? I think I can field this as an aspiring physics major. The second law of thermodynamics pertains specifically to isolated systems, Greg. The earth is not an isolated system. In fact, we are far from isolated. All things in nature become entropic without a supply of external energy, so the earth, society, and life will erode and we will ultimately not escape this planet. But wait! We have an external source of energy Greg— You see this process we call fusion going on in that big yellow-orange ball above your head. So, for the next circa 500 million years, I think earth should be fine in its ability to sustain life, harness energy, and perhaps even become more orderly. Perhaps I say, and not that it will be so, and only that the second law of thermodynamics does not exclude the possibility that it will be so. So maybe I “don’t have a clue” or maybe I can just speculate, and you can evaluate my response. Remember, however, do not use the systems of the past for they are imperfect, or the logical systems(like psychometrics), that are used to judge the strength or validity of an argument, because such systems are imperfect, completely disregarding the fact that they have been created by minds far beyond yours or mine. I guess that is the way of the human mind eh? We can only understand what the limits of our past understanding are capable of understanding at the time. Perhaps that is my problem Greg and the problem with the world. As for me though, systems imperfect or not, I have some confidence in the great minds that construct tests, and systems, not so much that I believe them blindly or fully, but rather that I use what they measure and say to help myself explain the world, and I use them to enhance my own reasoning abilities, because of all systems so flawed, the human mind’s reasoning ability appears to be moreso then these systems which is why these models and formulas and technologies are far more successful in what they explain and how far they can go. Also, calling me ethnocentric is an excessively contentious argument, being that none of my ideas advocate any race based politics, or any overall commitment to westernness, whiteness, or occidentalness. My resource leveraging approach is not race, culture, or Judeo-Christian morality based, but rather is an objective approach which should reflect reason and scientific endeavor, and is the least forceful of societal reinforcements and is not about the linear, unitary shaping of society for progression. It is about circular accountability grounded in reason, to create such progression. My ideas/suggestions are more reason centered than ethno-centered. Lastly, I have had a rough week, and really do not need to start an internet war, so please keep your focus on the arguments and data, and not the individual. I do not think insulting one another is the goal of this forum. Insult me through your arguments, not your words—or, let the reason exist outside the individual, eh?
Ya’ll began by discussing economics, then you were split down the middle by Dr. Phil (who I think the real Dr. phil is a joke anyways). This is a classical debate fallacy to which you all fell for. Quick bickering for the tit-for-tat and get to the core problem. fu*k social arguments- hit the core- economics (looks like participatory economics at that)!!! Learn how to argue with ignorance, you’ll never be frustrated again and you can work towards solving the main problem which in-turn will solve a majority of the other problems. Who put America in this situation- Corporations or, politically correct-firms.
Like your discussions DE
I have just finished reading through all of the above comments and your thoughts on these problems (oops…I should have referred to them in the politically correct sense as “issues”!) I wholeheartedly agree with. I don’t have time to write much now (like most Americans too many hours to work supporting all those people and groups you talk about) but hopefully I will be able to contribute more in the future. I just wanted to say that I come from a professional background that’s actually one of the worst perpetrators of the problems America faces…academia and specifically the life and health sciences segment. I am not some heavily published (i.e. bought) medical or pharmaceutical researcher. I’m just a lowly exercise physiologist who’s only agenda is to try to teach people how to live healthier and more productive (by this I mean relative productivity, i.e. produce more on less time…God forbid! :-)))) which MAY also lead to happier lives?
I have been teaching college students and adults at many different levels for 23 years and especially in the last 10 what I have been witnessing is truly frightening. The overall quality has diminished and the number of high quality students is virtually non-existent. I can’t begin to count how many times I will be explaining an important concept and been interrupted by a student…”well, is that going to be on the exam?”. I have fought tooth and nail with administrators concerning curriculum and details about what is being taught and have pretty much been ostracized by my colleagues for professing the “strongest evidence” (notice I don’t use the word “truth”) to my students and even to them. Thinking “outside the box” is politically incorrect! But isn’t this is what higher education, even high school education should be all about?
I certainly have more to say, I just wanted to make sure this blog is still active. Waiting for any replies.
Thanks.
Frank-
Yes, this site is still going.
I too, have almost wanted to kill students for asking “is it going to be on the test”
The test is called life- and hopefully, we’re teaching you how to win against ever increasing odds.
The American dream is now just to make it through alive.
Thanks for your thoughts.
That article is totally correct. I fully agree with it. America is becoming a third world country, and it makes you think what is happening when a country is spending billions on other projects which aren’t even important and it can’t find money to help its own people, let alone its poorest.
A lot of you have compared the U.S. with Scandinavia, Germany, et al. Here’s the difference: 30% of the U.S. population is either Hispanic, black or Native American – three groups that seriously underperfom by almost every social indicator. 30% is a lot – and among the school-age population, it’s 40%. While Europe has its own underperfoming ethnic minorities (Arabs, some blacks, Turks), they tend to only be 5-10% of the population. A larger percentage of the population in Europe is part of the majority culture and is able to participate in mainstream culture more easily. Europe has its ghettos, too, but they are less noticeable – they don’t have 1/3 of the population living in them.
Sadly, since the white and Asian birthrates are low, the share of Hispanic/black/Native Americans is going to keep on going up. In California, they collectively are 50% of the population, and that state’s governmental infrastructure can no longer support so many freeloaders. That state is descending into Third World status as I type this. Texas will follow suit within the next decade, and other parts of America later on, too.
Welcome Morgan-
However, you left off birthrates in Europe- where Muslims are out performing the natives by a factor of 5. Give it 25 years- and Europe will be Muslim.
I think the American Middle Class will be an endangered species (In which case, I’m moving to Dusseldorf or Munich). There will be people in government-subsidised apartments, slums and tents, with no electricity.
There will also be people who live in mansions, where middle class tract houses once stood, have the latest Japanese/Korean Electronics, 3-4 imported cars, maids, and a Uninterruptable Power Supply/Solar Panels to smoothout the brownouts/blackouts from our aging infrastructure and eating exorbitant amounts of Russian Caviar and French Champange.
These people will almost certainly have exemptions from laws and rights that others dont. Most will work for our new egalitarian, socialistic, third world government.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, and about one of those sweet government gigs…
Someone else has picked up this post- http://www.racedebate-msf.org/forums/showthread.php?p=25391#post25391
Made me re-read it- think it’s still a worthy post- almost 3 years later…