Before raising taxes, Dayton needs a plan
Generally, when you raise prices on a product, you offer something extra. Bigger, better, new and improved. Yet, Dayton is seriously considering raising income taxes as a solution to years of mismanagement.
As the population has shrunk, they’ve added employees in all the wrong places- to slap Band-Aids on the bullet wound that busing inflicted on our city. We tried like crazy to ignore the elephant in the living room. And now, nearly 40 years later- we’re just starting to make serious efforts at fixing the problems (without straight up admitting what they were- yes, our schools sucked, we’re fixing it).
Our divisions of jurisdictions make it too easy to pick and choose, and release anyone from responsibility. Who do you blame- school boards, superintendents, parents of poor kids, the judge, the “white flight,” the unions- or the Mayor and the Commission, the City Manager, the police chief, the unions? Or, do you just get fed up and move away?
There is zero accountability here. There is also zero leadership. All we do is form committees, task forces and ask for a plan. Then again- we have no leader to own the plan, and no action ever gets taken.
Then we get subjected to banal babbling by an editor at a “newspaper” that can barely write a story worth reading- (except when you let your top sports writer take on something like a sailor’s recollection of a kamikaze attack)
In talking about the proposed tax increase, Ellen Belcher says:
Though the city certainly has its advantages, it struggles mightily to recruit new businesses and new residents. Exactly how much the income tax figures into prospects’ considerations is hard to quantify. But it certainly isn’t irrelevant; and having the distinction of a tax rate that’s higher than almost every other community in the region can’t be a good thing….
Citizens aren’t public administrators. Many can’t point to specific ways of doing business that will markedly change Dayton’s costs, even though they’re sure that there must be some.
via Editorial: Tax increase is hard sell in Dayton | A Matter of Opinion.
Really, Ellen- what are the “advantages”? And, what makes you qualified to judge candidates? You never asked what strategies each candidate would use to “markedly change Dayton’s costs” in your endorsement interviews?
Asking to raise taxes to maintain the same services, the ones that haven’t been working so far, is just another nail in an already well constructed coffin. In fact, there aren’t any additional services or promises the current crew running our city could make that would give any voter hope that raising the taxes will somehow change the direction the City is headed. That makes this discussion moot.
So, how should they ask for more taxes? Get ready for a real alternative to discuss:
Shrink the city
We’ll raise taxes, and bring in some large cash payments to consolidate and improve our core: by promising to either sell off assets- say, offer to hand over the parts of Dayton that are in Huber Heights, Riverside or Harrison Twp. school districts to those communities- in exchange for those communities passing bonds to pay us a part of the future income tax revenue that is generated- giving us cash now- and a smaller footprint to manage. Sell off the non-contiguous parts of Dayton as well- like the airports- and the “enterprise zones” to either regional entities like the county or the “booming” burbs, in exchange for cash now.
Sitting with cash in the hand- we have to make a decision- consolidate some more- by using this money to re-balance our city, moving people from sparsely populated or run down neighborhoods into strong ones- then cut services and our service area to these old areas- until we’ve got our core neighborhoods as healthy as possible.
Change the way we do business in the city
Or we can take the blighted communities and create free-for-all zoning, and offer every single piece of property that the city already owns, on the market at bargain rates, as long as the buyer makes a commitment to occupy the property and pay at least a set income tax with new residents only. The property values for the taxing purposes are the purchase price- however the income tax requirement must be met- or the property is taken back and resold. If it isn’t new residents moving in- the property tax is set normally.
The object is to bring in additional income tax payers, plain and simple. All increases in tax revenue would be used to provide the highest quality government services: ie police, fire, water, sewer, trash- at the lowest price. There will be a guarantee of zero expense on marketing, “economic development” or other non-essential government services.
Grow the city
The gutsy move is to somehow grow the city. First would be to look at adjoining townships. Harrison, Jefferson (and there probably is another one or two) and try to acquire them. While the residents may not want to pay a higher income tax- we’re already providing some of their services. The question is- how are we going to propose our change in the way we do business that they’d be willing to give up their current small government for something bigger? This is where the city has failed. Had we been doing things right- this shouldn’t be a hard sell. Ask the average person in Jefferson Township if they’d like to be a part of Kettering- and they’d probably say yes. Say Dayton- and they’d think you were crazy. Operationally- we’d need to clean house and rebuild the way Dayton works- to instill and inspire confidence enough that this would be an option. Unfortunately- we don’t elect the kinds of leadership that can think like this. Typically in a bad market- is when great companies grow the most. Their value increases as they snatch up the weak. In a bad market- the weak- typically do what Dayton is thinking of doing- delaying bankruptcy as long as possible.
Are these fully fleshed out ideas- no. I’m sharing them with you as discussion points to give direction to the people “in charge.” The one thing that is for sure- with business as usual there is no point in accepting a tax hike, unless they are ready to give up.
If anything, we need to lower the tax rate and offer more opportunity for investment- but without confidence in a plan on where we’re headed, investment won’t come- no matter how much money you throw at potential investors.
Your thoughts?
Well, David, it appears your mind is made up. Lower taxes! Never mind that we’ve been subjected to that since Reaganomics and so far it’s been a disaster nationally and locally.
I’d say the idea ought to be “flushed out” (oh–did you mean “fleshed”?).
“disaster ”
Really? USA has had it ups and downs since Reagan. Truddick you need to wake up. Disaster? Prosperty is bad?
I hate liberals. Everything is doom and gloom. You know a lot of people, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, have done pretty good the last 30 years. But you take a few worthless drug bums who can’t get along with anyone and it has been a “disaster.” Grow up. Stop taking money from people to fund for special interests. It is a joke.
Gene, you’re entitled to your opinion, but your not entitled to your facts. The only time we’ve had consistent economic growth over the past 30 years was during the Clinton presidency; Reagan, BushI and BushII gave us recession after recession. The adjusted income of the average person has shrunk while the wealthy have gotten wealthier–and often through underhanded dealings in the deregulated market (certainly you don’t think we caught ALL the offenders when we indicted Enron, Worldcom, Andersen, etc. etc. etc.). BushII and his conservative-Republican congress left us on the edge of financial collapse–and don’t forget it was the Bush administration that took “our” money and gave it to those who are furthest from needy.
Take me back to the Eisenhower presidency, please. At least he had the clear-eyed idea that you tax the rich at rates they can bear (top tax bracket in the 1950s: 90%). Bring those attitudes back and our problems will melt.
truddick:
Come on, you’re better than that. This isn’t even close to coherent. Are you really claiming that Dayton is suffering because of low taxes and small government since the time of Reagan? Talk about hogwash…
Conflating national politics with our local problems and possible solutions is probably not that helpful either, but you’re not the only one guilty of that.
The Old Bandito is an old fool from the Old School. So give me a back in the day rap beat Mr. Music Man.. Ba boom boom BOOM Ba boom boom BOOM I’m the rappin’ Ice Bandit, and I’m here to tell ya’ about the crazy plan the city’s gonna sell ya’ they wanna’ raise taxes and that ain’t no joke, you develop stinkin’ thinkin’ when you’re flat-ass broke. Back in the day it was called the Gem City, but what has since transpired is a dog-gone pity, once everybody drove around in ‘Vettes and Caddies, drinkin top shelf hooch and rollin’ Cheech and Chong fatties. And when it came to entertainment wasn’t too long waitin’ you weren’t an entertainer lest you made it to Dayton, The Players, Lakeside, Slave, Roger and others, played the Palladium for all the sisters and brothers. And to all you whippersnappers it may come as a shock to learn Hara Arena was a cathedral to rock, every group from the Stones to the Golden Earrings played that rockin’ old barn out on Shiloh Springs. Everybody had money, everybody had time, but along came entitlement with his partner crime soon the Stoddard Mansion to the Salem Mall became a target for vandals and the wreckin’ ball. Now Wagner Act Unionism has its price, and Dayton’s worker reputation wasn’t all that nice, and if there’s one thing big money business don’t like, is when your only course of action is to call a strike. Soon the smart and ambitous left the city as well and even Satan thought Dayton was resembling hell, they left behind the old, the weak and the sicken’, felons, mental patients and the poverty stricken. The schools no longer teach and the streets are such a danger, they’d pose a problem for a company of Army rangers, but the best minds in Dayton came up with a solution, one they thought would set off a urban revolution. “We’re gonna raise your taxes,” they said with a straight face, but the rest started laughing all over the place, there plan wasn’t too smart… Read more »
Mother knows ‘Capital Flight‘
Enterprising the services of the Dayton Police and Fire Departments is an absolute no-brainer.
Mayor Lietzell eluded to enterprising services in a Mayoral debate, but nothing has come of it.
Enterprising services is a revenue-generation tool. We get X amount of money as a base. Then, X amount of money is also generated on top of that from Police tickets, EMS billing, etc.
Email me sometime if you want specifics, but Riverside in particular, and also Jefferson, would be super-easy for the DFD to begin providing services.
If we don’t want our services to keep getting smaller, we’ve got to take the steps to make them bigger.
Saint Ronnie the Wrong…. If you are not part of the delusion, you are part of the problem. If we had listened to Jimmy Carter or David Esrati or…. It is part of National Delusion or the Rose Colored Glass Syndrome.
I have grown tired of arguments about Ronnie, he was a puppet to the Business Elite as is Obama, nothing more not less. A corporate hack GE spokesperson. One may not like Michael Moore, but if the Reagan boys can stomach the Truth, at least watch Sullenberger open up to Congress in Capitalism: A Love Story.
My Mother, a DDN and News Watcher was surprised at the not hearing this side of the story.
PS The Bailout of Greece 140 Billion is the same as the Taxpayers are on the Hook for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. America is deserving of Ronnie Reagan, Hypocrite in Chief and Obama his Heir Apparent.
To paraphrase Greg, I have grown tired of arguments about [insert national culture war B.S. here].
None of that junk will help us figure out how to make Dayton better. But it sure feels good to blame those rascals in Washington or Wall Street for all our problems rather than looking in the mirror just a bit…
People are so uninterested in the ‘services’ to be covered by the proposed tax hike that they’ve been ‘voting’ by relocating home and hearth just to avoid paying for them for decades. The problem may be hard, but it ain’t complicated.
Ahh but things are easy for Greg, as everything is about ENERGY and if it is a waste it should not be subsidized to cost more. Look at Springboro, all OUR Tax dollars got used to build out the desire to be in the wide open space, but not the services, so once the bill comes due people balk at paying. Tearing down schools and buildings in Dayton, while building in Springboro. That is stupidity, but hey realtors and developers run the show, which is a circular argument to stupidity.
I was intrigued by your train rail underestimation on construction vs roads, but I think there is greater underestimation for the total build out of services associated with sprawl. There is no solution but to go bust and start over. Yeast and humans, same thought process, humans have a bigger dish.
There is only one privately owned and operated airport in the country in Branson. Who would take over Dayton’s airport? It’s not something you can just put up for sale.
@Steve – the airport is a regional asset- and should be owned and managed by a regional authority. Not even just Montgomery County- a five county authority- at minimum.
Maybe (snickers) we hand it over to the Dayton Development Coalition- and see how the most highly paid quasi-governmentals do at actually running something other than their mouths….
Suburbs Losing Young Whites To Cities, Brookings Institution Finds
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/09/suburbs-losing-young-whit_n_569226.html
script injection hack? I don’t think it worked…
Nah, I just copied the headline and link and got that. WTF?
@Steve and Drexel- I cleaned it up. thanks
Truddick………um no. You think that the paradigm of markets is immediate and each president is responsible for only the years associated with their tenure? Also, here is a quick chart for everyone to determine if your version of consistent agrees with theirs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States Also, what did reagan do for our 8 year non-recession run…….lowered taxes and let interest go to market rates. What did Clinton do for his 10 year run……….balanced the budget so it appeared we have a fiscally responsible gov’t. So, in the 18 years of non-recession, I could bust out these facts to show it was limited government spending and lower taxes. Not only that, but after taxes were lowered, did IRS revenues go up? Do I feel this is an overly simplistic look ………..absolutely, but it is comparable to your own. Greg Hunter: Michael Moore, really? http://mises.org/daily/3751 MM does not even know what the word means. OK, back to Dayton: 1) Shrink the city in order to shrink services? If another sector of government can pick up the tab, I do not see how this is a bad move for Dayton. 2) I like free for all zoning. Here is why I do not like your version. Creating rules is not really free zoning. Creating bureacracy to see the rules are followed, enforced and followed up on requires more personnel. What is wrong with free…………100% free zoning? I think your version would not create the interest you are hoping for and increase government and costs at the same time. 3) Don’t grow…….a city that cannot manage itself at any size will NOT be able to sustain itself at a larger size. The idea that you have reminds me of military strategy, seize richer surrounding areas to support ourselves. This is the equivalent of increasing the blight. Going with open zoning in my opinion would have the fastest and most immediate impact. Here is a real world cause and effect. I struck a deal with my landlord to take on additional storage space, we were going to pen a 2 year lease. I am now pushing for… Read more »
>we hand it over to the Dayton Development Coalition
Love it! Slogans just roll off the tongue: Get Airborn! Get Somewhere Else (and don’t forget to come back soon). :-D
Get (out of) Midwest
Robert asked:
“Truddick………um no. You think that the paradigm of markets is immediate and each president is responsible for only the years associated with their tenure?”
Well, I guess you may have an idea there–let’s not hold any presidents accountable for what happens during their tenure. Er, what WILL we hold them responsible for, oh Robert?
The point may be taken that each president gets a little slack if dealing with a big mess from the previous administration. But then again, we might consider specifics. Reagan announced that he was going to stop Carter’s economic problems by plunging us into a recession; he presented it as a false dilemma, there were other ways to adjust that economy than the two he offered. And Carter, after all, inherited the mess left over from Nixon’s wage-and-price controls (are you sure Republicans like free markets?) BushI cannot have the blame put on his predecessor since he was simply continuing Reaganomics. And the current near-depression has to have been all W’s.
I hold that the federal deficits and national debt are more deleterious than are higher taxes (especially progressive ones) and right-sized government. The evidence seems to be on my side; tax cuts that favor the wealthy plus dereg after dereg have decidedly not left us in a better economic state. You may wish to keep doing the same thing over and over, but I want a way to get different results.
@Truddick: My point with paradigms was that you were embellishing your own facts in a manner to tell Gene he was not entitled to his own facts.
Presidents have an effect during their term, but I typically hold mine accountable for whether or not they represent the consitution and freedom of the individual. Any president that runs a deficit and hikes taxes is leveraging my future and playing master with resources not their own.
What evidence have you presented that shows it is on your side? I see many assumptions, but no concrete evidence. Let’s just say, I think you said very little about a complex topic.
What I did see is that you think it is ok to tax people 90%. This puts you and I at such odds about the nature of man and government that I do not even know where to begin. And no, I do not particular hold republicans in high regard when it comes to liberty.
Yes..Dayton fell victim to the subprime lending crisis, but this City was going down the crapper well before that. We all know the history of Dayton, GM, yadda, yadda, yadda. Dayton had to deal with many of the same things that other cities did, but they didn’t switch from the dying blue collar union positions to technology. Too little too late. Unions haven’t killed the suburbs, especially in the public sector. The main issue now is leadership. Yes, the suburbs are hurting, but not near as bad as the DYT. Why? Leadership is one of the keys. Dayton is going to be hard pressed to find neighboring municipalities to join up and “buy out” areas for bonds. Huber won’t want anything off of of Gander, Kitridge, etc. The will need that entire tax base just to fund the additional police and service resources. Right now fire is a wash considering HH covers that area mutual aid with their medics in trade for Engine 12 from DFD as a south resource. In order for HH to provide the same level of service they do for the rest of their city, they won’t have the desire to pass any money to Dayton. And Dayton needs that tax base up there to survive. Vandalia won’t buy up northern areas of Dayton due to a stretch of resources. Trotwood won’t because, well, they can’t balance a checkbook, let alone a budget. Oakwood? Uhh, yeah right. Dayton can’t manage themselves. There isn’t an adjoining municipality that is willing to take a chance with letting them screw up their area either by giving up control. The people that can move out of Dayton already have. The ones that are there are there because of loyalty (which there is nothing wrong with), are in a good part of town that has things to offer, or like doing as they please and know their actions won’t be put up with in the suburbs. Taxes aren’t the answer and never will be. You need taxes to support core services and that is it. Prior mismanagement has hurt and… Read more »
My bet is that the tax increase is a red herring. They want people to understand the tough choices ahead, and the easiest way to do it is to attach a price tag to the status quo.
Although there are some good ideas here, most of the comments seem to have nothing to do with Dayton. But let’s start with the one most un-true:
1. False. Dayton has actually done an extraordinary job of managing a difficult change. Yes, there are problems. No, there are no easy solutions. They have maintained their bond rating and core services despite losing a large chunk of revenue through no fault of their own. (Thanks, Lehman Brothers!) No one – NO ONE – in this region, or probably all of Ohio could have done much better, short of the kind of massive overhaul we’re talking about here.
@ the airport is a regional asset
2. True. All the more reason to let Dayton continue doing business as usual. They are probably the most successful department in the City. If recent articles are true, they are out-performing their Ohio competitors. Let them be an example to others, and develop the leadership to take on more responsibility.
@ The gutsy move is to somehow grow the city. First would be to look at adjoining townships.
3. True. Studies show that successful cities are the ones that grow geographically. Look at Columbus compared to landlocked Cincinnati or Cleveland. Dayton needs to ditch recent tradition and make the case for annexation as the best path for the long term health of the region.
4. Eliminating zoning, I would say, is a toss-up. It might sound good in theory until people really understand the consequences (as previously discussed here). The better case is to re-examine your zoning code and see where they can back off without harm to the community.
I don’t understand how you think they have done a extraordinary job of handling this situation? They weren’t smart enough to realize what they needed to do in order to keep up 10-15 years ago. Then people like Mayor McHat were put in place as the “face of Dayton”. If anyone thinks that helped Dayton’s case, I would like to meet them.
Dayton can’t annex to the likes of Columbus. CBus was genius when they developed their incorporation limits. It looks like a spider that has a central hub and legs that stretch along the major routes all the way to the county limits. That was the key to controlling their own destiny. No one else can dictate where they go. Dayton is unable to do this. And the majority of the townships that Dayton can take over, are more of a drain in resources than a positive. Harrison and Jefferson Twp. for example. These two areas are no more than financial strains, with a limited income. It is like putting in a ton of $3.00 an hour restaurant employees in your area and expecting your income tax revenue to skyrocket. It won’t.
Look at the Trotwood and Madison Twp. merger. It didn’t benefit Trotwood one bit to take over Drexel, Crowne Pointe, Salem Village, or Townview. Those areas are a drain to services, will little revenue gained. This is the same example with Dayton’s surrounding townships (sans Miami). Annexation is NOT the answer. They have to fix their own problems first. Nudie bars and nightclubs aren’t going to save Dayton.
The Dayton airport just lost its leader. Unless they replace him with someone equally as business savvy, it will be back to the Blair Conrad days of wanting to relocate Route 40 to build a runway (ignoring the acres and acres of unused airport land on the other side of the terminal).
Before we cast all the townships that touch Dayton as total shitholes not worthy of annexation, remember that Butler Twp., with all it’s development along Miller Lane, various commercial properties, and the 70/75 Interchange, also touches the City of Dayton. Granted, that may be a tougher sell to the citizens than those in Jefferson or Harrison, but that is a key annexation that could quickly benefit the City. And the argument that the City of Dayton can provide superior Police, Fire, Water, Trash, etc. can absolutely be made.
Columbus was able to do all those annexations by simply saying, “Be annexed or you don’t get our water.”
Couldn’t Dayton do likewise?
dad…Then everyone else can partner up like up north with NAWA and TCWT and not have to worry about needing Dayton.
Brad…Miami, Butler, and Washington Twps. don’t want anything to do with Dayton. Butler surely doesn’t. They didn’t want to merge with Vandalia, and Vandalia can provide services superior to Dayton. Miller Ln. is a drain on Butler Twp resources. Their PD spends the majority of their time there due to drugs, cheap hotels, walMart, and minimum wage resources. Mimimum wage jobs don’t bring in money, technology and industry do. Butler has the resturant biz and that is it on Miller Ln.. Vandalia incorporates the technology and industry on Poe and Webster.
These lucrative Townships that can manage themselves don’t want to be overtaken by a city that can’t manage itself. The shit Townships with minimal forms of government are subject to annexation much easier than the middle-upperclass Townships with a workforce. Butler likes not having income tax (even though they have a large property tax). Dayton needs to focus on itself first. They could learn a thing or two about outsourcing.
“Vandalia can provide services superior to Dayton”
I sincerely hope that’s a joke.
Your choice: 4 experienced firefighters riding on the fire engine responding to your house fire, immediately…. or 2-3 firefighters with minimal experience, that respond once they assemble at the fire station from home.
You obviously have no concept of operational issues in public safety services.
I didn’t say annexation would be an easy sell. I was simply pointing out that not all townships touching Dayton city limits (and therefore easiest to annex) are not run-down.
Supply and demand. Vandalia runs a medic crew 24/7 (most are also firefighters), and others respond from home as needed. Just because we don’t have daily dumpster fires or arsonists burning homes down weekly, doesn’t mean we don’t have a professional department. We also aren’t paying off a bunch of guys who weren’t qualified to pass the test, and our guys don’t threaten to strike. So there.
@Brad – “…remember that Butler Twp., with all it’s development along Miller Lane, various commercial properties, and the 70/75 Interchange, also touches the City of Dayton.” I’m almost positive that much of Miller Lane is Vandalia land, annexed a while back. I used to work there for a while and my checks paid Vandalia taxes. I know it is chopped up between Vandalia and Butler though. I used to live in Butler Twp. and their Fire departments always responded in under 5 minutes the few times I called them or when the alarm system did. The Police force I’m not so keen on… tickets and towing, and a few asshole patrolmen really change one’s perspective. The Fire dept. did have some issues in the news about mis-use of computers and internet, but I think that might have been covered on this site elsewhere. Butler Twp. is very suburban-minded, and I really do not think these areas would voluntarily incorporate with Dayton. Why would their residents choose Dayton Public over Vandalia-Butler Schools? My family moved there to get out of Five Oaks in the late 80’s. I think Dayton is viewed, in some ways, as an albatross the region is forced to hang on it’s collective neck. I personally don’t feel that way, but mention City of Dayton to your standard S.W. Ohio suburbanite and watch the eyeballs roll. I went to Austin, TX last spring for work and was drinking in a bar and mention I was from Ohio to some new friend, and eventually out came..” Man, I hope your not from Dayton…it’s like the murder capital of the world!” Surprising, but that’s is how were branded by alot of people/places. I’ve since moved back to Dayton after college and enjoy it quite a bit. Not sure exactly what the City needs to be successful; it takes a long time to recreate a working city which originally grew up organically. More responsible parents, better schools, young people, supporting an entreprenurial class, more small businesses, jobs, tougher stance on property crimes….. a positive attitude might help, too.… Read more »
I will point to race and development. They do not call it cowtown for nothing. Cbus did not have the industrial base or the race problems that were in bloom during the industrial revolution. Cbus grew because like the empire Taxes and influence flow to the capital. Cbus grew as a white collar town and with no race issues, in comparison to Dayton, there was less pressure to “section off from the other.”
I took the effort to review the article and I can find no “take down” or credible responses from the author about the story. I will note the glaring omissions from the author: any mention of Sullenberger in the pilot saga; why America became great after WWII and really no refutation of the idiocy of Americans under St. Ronnie the Wrong. I will agree that Moore does not skewer Clinton, but neither should the Acolytes of Reagan as he continued St. Ronnie’s policies and did not have the balls of Carter to tell the public the truth about the “bright and shining city on the hill.” At least Clinton has lived longed enough to regret his “free market” mistakes. PS I think it will be a cold day in hell when George W. Bush makes ANY admission of a mistake.
Love the discourse on Dayton, but one cannot make appropriate “repairs” until one admits where the problems began.
Joe – The school system wouldn’t change. It would stay Vandalia-Butler. School district lines don’t always follow City lines, especially not in Dayton’s case. There are sections of the City of Dayton that are Mad River, Wayne, Vandalia-Butler, and others.
Allison – I’m certainly not trying to talk down about Vandalia, Butler, or any other fire department. I have friends that work at just about every department in the region. I’m just stating the facts about apparatus staffing and response time. You are exactly correct about supply and demand. I’ve been there, done that, as a volunteer, part-time, paid-on-call, etc… I’m most certainly not questioning your professionalism. Just stating the facts.
I don’t think raising taxes is a good idea. Hard to get blood from a stone.
I am moving out of Dayton, just to make DE happy. Actually, I just don’t want to pay city taxes anymore. I am negociating terms to live in Washington Twp.
@Brad -The school system wouldn’t change. It would stay Vandalia-Butler. School district lines don’t always follow City lines, especially not in Dayton’s case. There are sections of the City of Dayton that are Mad River, Wayne, Vandalia-Butler, and others.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. County-wide schools could be a regional assett, and eliminate alot of the unnecessary overhead of have so many districts. I think this would be a much harder sell than police/fire services though. A big part of the flight to the suburbs is so a person’s children dont have to go to school with other children whose parents are less responsible, less social/economic status, etc…
Brad is offering anyone to drink the Dayton EgoMania flavored Coolaid. There are more non-DFD employed Professional Firefighters in the Miami Valley, than DFD firefighters delivering high levels of service at fractions of the cost. Brad, if you would spend some time understanding that the region’s services do not revolve around the city of Dayton, you would see much has been attempted at regional cooperation. Good and efficient automatic mutual aid responses (AMARS) occur outside of the City of Dayton everyday. Many departments were hiring trained firefighters that were cross trained as paramedic 20 years before the concept was adopted in Dayton. A key problem in Dayton is that its services have not really shrank in proportion to the drop in population. The Dayton Fire Department’s staffing level is still trying to serve a community of 250,ooo when Dayton’s population has dropped by over 50,000 people. Surronding communities have tried and do work together. Dayton has been part of some limited cooperation attempts but, egos (similar to what Brad demonstrated) in Dayton always seem to get in the way and cause projects not to grow or to fail. Other fire departments work great with each other, while anyone working with Dayton always leaves abraised. While Dayton’s income is shrinking at an accelerated rate, the stereotypical Dayton mentality doesn’t want to look at merging services, Brad and his likes always want to take over and ruin good working systems in other communities. Smaller Departments have learned to do more with less, and don’t simply sit out of service when they drop down to three firefighters. Attitudes like what Brad has displayed on this forum are the cause of reluctance in trying cooperative efforts. Even when regional or cooperative efforts are finally attempted, they usually fail because of egos like Brad’s or his siblings. Brad’s leadership should be promoting regional cooperation and not hostile takeovers which will cause an uprising, where no one wants to help you out. In closing, I am amazed that over 20 of Brad’s coworkers and over 100 fellow City employees have braved to leave the well protected City of Dayton to move their families into the suburbs protected by non DFD employees (or KDs, as Brad may say) or DPD . Safety Services need to… Read more »
Geez, I don’t know about all the dispersion’s on Brad’s character (his comments seem authentic /reasonable to me), but I tend to agree with this:
It seems intuitively correct, but I realized I don’t really have any data to back it up. Just the correlation between declining population and budgetary troubles, has the city’s government / ops / maintenance burden actually increased? I’m a data hound, anybody got some data on this rather than just internet opinions?
Brad…Thanks for going out and making assumptions about my knowledge about public safety in the Miami Valley. Where should we begin. Let us start with police. Vandalia can provide superior police protection to their citizens than Dayton. If there were to be a merger between Vandalia and Butler Twp. in the future. They would provide the same level of staffing to Butler (which is more than butler currently sees), that they currently provide Vandalia. An average of 4 crews, sometimes 3 or 5, for 14k residents with a minimal call volume compared to Dayton, with half a dozen cars, for 5 times as many people in one district with calls holding for hours, if not more than a day for non-priority calls. Vandalia would be forced to add 2, if not 3 crews to a shift to adequately provide equal service across the board. They would do that, and Butler Twp would see an increase in service than compared to DPD if they took over. Say Dayton takes over Butler. They may add an officer or two to patrol the extra area, but the resources would be depleted to other districts based on call volume. So, realistically, Butler Twp. residents would see a decrease in police staffing, because their new title of Dayton has just put the 2-3 cars they have now, to where the call volume is in the new district…Dayton. Fire…well, you must not have any friends in the fire service at Vandalia these days. It USED to be staffed from 0600-1800. Now, things are changing. Currently fire and medic apparatus are staffed at the FD. Given the call volume, they don’t have to triage calls prior to dispatch and an incident gets the same response with an ALS medic regardless of call volume. Given the nature of a structure fire response, why is Engine 12 the first responding piece of equipment to south Huber? Oh, that’s right. Because generally fire responses are a hodgepodge of equipment coming from all surrounding areas. Considering the likelyhood of DFD already being tied up on a structure response,… Read more »
Joe…
Miller lane isn’t Vandalia until you are south of Benchwood. However Poe Ave. is Vandalia. If your place of employment was in Butler Twp. you wouldn’t have paid any income tax.
Interestingly enough, I’ve often talked with firefighters in the area, DFD and otherwise, about the feasability and benefits of merging services.
I have no problem working well with others.
I was just stating facts about crew size and response time.
But hey, bash me if ya want to.
Brad…Hardly bashing…it’s called my argument vs. yours, but if the Urninary Olympiad must continue, so be it. I don’t bash people, I argue points. This isn’t personal. However…suburban FF’s are going to be in huge favor of being regional due to their desire to be FT due to the reputation in the service. The PT FF’s themselves aren’t worried about response time and quality of service. They are worried about how many tones get dropped that shift. Talk to any Volly in strong favor of it, they will say..”Man, could you imagine how much fun it would be to be that busy.”…followed by IAFF rhetoric that is conjoined with NFPA standards. Feel free to discuss facts further. There are many other arguments other than response time that have to be looked at in government. It isn’t the only one, and is usually the only one that supports regionalization. Merging services is something that can be feasible when Dayton is able to keep up. Many part time suburban FF’s want to be a part of something FT or busier. The whole KD mentality. That is precisely why many part timers want to have FT status. It makes them feel “professional” as the IAFF would like to pass on. Their feeling is that unless you are FT and part of their organization, you aren’t “professional”. This is hardy the case. Many PT FF”s carry FT status at other departments or PT status at busy places. Huber, Harrison, TWood, etc…They don’t care about the volly mentality, because they are already considered FT and “professional” elsewhere….they are simply cashing another 1-2k check a month. I am friends with many of them. The FT guys that supplement their income at other places don’t “get excited” anymore. The understand the whole scheme of things now. Considering the mutual aid response on a structure fire to the majority of the suburbs, then merging makes sense. However, merging can ONLY be done when the suburbs can still get the same service they do now. If you were to merge PD’s or FD’s at this moment in… Read more »
Robert upbraided me:
“What I did see is that you think it is ok to tax people 90%.”
No, Robert, I noted that in the 1950s, the top tax bracket was 90%.
Anyone who wasn’t woefully ignorant of how progressive taxes work would not have equated a top bracket of 90% with an overall tax rate of 90%. In a proper income tax system, no one winds up paying a rate that equals the top bracket. This is something that many people (and I’d guess all of the tea parties) fail to grasp–but that’s not an excuse.
Please disabuse yourself of your mistaken notions through honest study of the tax system. In all likelihood, due to the predominance of regressive taxes (property, sales, excise, gasoline, etc.) you, like me, are paying a higher percentage of your total income in taxes than are the wealthy. Unlike me, you think that making taxes even more regressive and continuing to slash them for the wealthy is the cure. If your views were correct, it would have worked by now.
BTW, Obama has reduced federal income taxes for the 95% of us who needed it most, and also has come through with tax cuts and incentives for small business. Let’s not lose track of which 2nd-millenium president has the best record on those sorts of initiatives.
Truddick, you are simply inaccurate. Please let me demonstrate the ways, perhaps your writing style should contain a little less “ignorants & disabuses”. “Take me back to the Eisenhower presidency, please. At least he had the clear-eyed idea that you tax the rich at rates they can bear (top tax bracket in the 1950s: 90%). Bring those attitudes back and our problems will melt.” “No, Robert, I noted that in the 1950s, the top tax bracket was 90%.” I am pretty sure, that it is clear in bold black type that you longed for the days when people (yes, not the all inclusive people, but people) were taxed at %90. “Anyone who wasn’t woefully ignorant of how progressive taxes work would not have equated a top bracket of 90% with an overall tax rate of 90%. ” Here is the link……..can you handle it………. http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php#fn-6 ** Note the top bracket is an overall tax maximum of %87-88%, sorry that I embellished 2-3%, I was following your lead. “Please disabuse yourself of your mistaken notions through honest study of the tax system. In all likelihood, due to the predominance of regressive taxes (property, sales, excise, gasoline, etc.) you, like me, are paying a higher percentage of your total income in taxes than are the wealthy.” You are mathematically correct. What is the percentage of overall taxes currently covered by the wealthy? http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/08/tax-facts-of-day.html just a quick search chart. “Unlike me, you think that making taxes even more regressive and continuing to slash them for the wealthy is the cure. If your views were correct, it would have worked by now.” You may be a woefully ignorant. You have not even chosen to avail yourself of what my way would be. Nor, have you demonstrated how your way has worked. What in the hell are you even talking about? “BTW, Obama has reduced federal income taxes for the 95% of us who needed it most, and also has come through with tax cuts and incentives for small business. Let’s not lose track of which 2nd-millenium president has the best record on those sorts… Read more »
>>> Obama has reduced federal income taxes for the 95% of us who needed it most, and also has come through with tax cuts and incentives for small business. <<< – TRUDDICK
How on earth could Obama reduce federal income taxes on 95% of the people when approximately 47% of the people pay NO, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH federal income taxes???
And, please enlighten all of us, in your own words and not with some web link, on exactly what the tax cuts and incentives for small business that your beloved President enacted. How are they working so far to stimulate job growth? All I’ve seen is more oppressive crap brought down on business owners large and small through this monstrosity “health care bill” that went through. Truddick, RV said you are a teacher. Is that your job? It’s pretty obvious that you’ve never owned a business before and have absolutely no freakin’ clue what it takes to comply with the onerous regulations faced by business owners. It is scary that you’re probably preaching this garbage to a captive audience of students though.
Have a great day! :)
In all likelihood, due to the predominance of regressive taxes (property, sales, excise, gasoline, etc.) you, like me, are paying a higher percentage of your total income in taxes than are the wealthy. (truddick)
Truddick and Donald Trump are walking down Ludlow Street discussing such topics as Karma, the delayed offside rule, and their philosophies on vaginas as a whole. When they approach Third Street, each spies. picks up and examines two envelopes lying on the sidewalk. “Thank you lucky stars,” truddick exclaims, “for my envelope contains $1,000 bucks.” The Donald looks into his envelope and frowns. “Life is so unfair, dear truddick,” the Trumpster laments, “for your $1,000 is a higher percentage of your net worth than the $100 grand in my envelope.” Fact is, dear truddick, the uber-wealthy get a break because they can jump into their Lear Jets and set up residence in offshore tax shelters. This was demonstrated recently on a micro level when New Jersey exacted a millionaires tax and then watched as the big-buck-boys did wheelies getting out of the Garden State. But it has long been the Old Bandito’s contention that there is virtually no difference in the taxation rates of the wealthy and the rest of us, for the wealthy are targets of a different type of taxation. And that taxation is the legal bribery known as the campaign contribution, and those breaks aren’t cheap. The US Tax Code, all 20 volumes and 16,845 pages of it, is a virtual breakapalooza, with each break bearing the fingerprint of a legislator on the take. The laws of percentage aren’t going to allow the percentage of taxation to float much dear truddick, but you may want to examine the advice of the Tea Partiers you cannot hide your contempt for in an advocacy of a fair tax. Taxation then becomes voluntary, the beast that is government goes on a forced diet and freedom is enhanced. One it comes to the Old Bandito, he prefers tea to Kool Aid any day……
Tax consumption, not production. That way the argument is nil.
Oh….but that’s right. The feds can’t control how much WE spend. They can only control how much THEY take.
Local and national tax and budget issues are vastly different. Local taxes fund local services, they are however often supplemented by state and national taxes. To get a grasp of how your local tax money is spent review a copy of your city’s budget. Then try to imagine what elements could be reduced and which should get a larger percentage of the funding. It is not a simple task. Then try finding a practical way to measure the ROI for those expenditures. I’m still looking for one.
Bruce, May I suggest a book. “Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth” by Ludwig Von Mises Just in case nobody rushes out to buy the book…sigh… attached is a link to the entire book online. http://mises.org/econcalc/ch1.asp Just in case nobody rushes to the link pasted above, for free, to edify themselves…here are some of the highlights. Chapter 2 excerpt: Picture the building of a new railroad. Should it be built at all, and if so, which out of a number of conceivable roads should be built? In a competitive and monetary economy, this question would be answered by monetary calculation. The new road will render less expensive the transport of some goods, and it may be possible to calculate whether this reduction of expense transcends that involved in the building and upkeep of the next line. That can only be calculated in money. It is not possible to attain the desired end merely by counterbalancing the various physical expenses and physical savings. Where one cannot express hours of labor, iron, coal, all kinds of building material, machines and other things necessary for the construction and upkeep of the railroad in a common unit it is not possible to make calculations at all. The drawing up of bills on an economic basis is only possible where all the goods concerned can be referred back to money. Admittedly, monetary calculation has its inconveniences and serious defects, but we have certainly nothing better to put in its place, and for the practical purposes of life monetary calculation as it exists under a sound monetary system always suffices. Were we to dispense with it, any economic system of calculation would become absolutely impossible. Read more: Economic Calculation: Chapter 2 :: Free classics from the Mises Institute http://mises.org/econcalc/ch2.asp#ixzz0nvUwOVR5 In the next chapter (3): It seems tempting to try to construct by analogy a separ ate estimation of the particular production groups in the socialist state also. But it is quite impossible. For each separate calculation of the particular branches of one and the same enterprise depends exclusively on the fact that is precisely in… Read more »
Bruce…many of us understand the whole local, federal, state tax issues. My local income tax is fixed…no matter if I make 30k or 750k, I pay anywhere from 1.75 to 2.5 percent. (thereabouts) Everyone contributes en equal proportion of their income based on their worth. My property tax is also fixed for the city, county, school district, etc…that I live in. I know what I pay prior to moving. I can get what I pay for out of my local district. Anyway…here goes a bit of a rant…. Federal tax….I don’t know what in the hell I am going to be paying next year. I don’t know exactly what tax bracket I fit in based on income, children, or whatever flavor of the month our asshole representatives can get their hands on. (repub, dem, ind, lib, con, etc…all of them aren’t looking out for us on a national level) The biggest difference is that the amount of resources with a fair/flat/fixed sales…whatever type of tax you want to impose, is that it is on a national scale. Taxing consumption on a local level can’t be done given the fact that there is a different amount of product driven resources in different communities. What I do not have a problem with concerning local income tax is that the VOTERS directly add or subtract tax rates through DIRECT voting. No lobbyists, no politicians…just the people voting on a tax issue. (yes politicians put the tax issues up, but if they are that off keyster, the public can do something about it by a direct vote) People at the federal and state level want to boast about cutting taxes in order to get elected. The whole problem is that yes, the state is lowering taxes. But they are cutting funding, primarily in education, and forcing local governments to come up with the money in the form of new levies, bonds, taxes…How about we make the decisions at the local level about what we want to do with our money. Say I have 5 bucks for ever 100 taken… Read more »
@Jesse- if I butchered the English language like Ludwig- I’d have to give away my book too.
[that’s probably why this blog is free :-) ]