Dayton has excess capacity to deliver water. Greene County has shortages, forcing voluntary watering restrictions. A little bit of regional cooperation and voila, cash to Dayton – and save Greene County residents some money. From today’s Dayton Daily News:
There are no plans to increase water rates, which should come as good news for customers in Beavercreek and Sugarcreek Twp. who are preparing to enter the third summer of voluntary odd/even watering restrictions.
Drought conditions and high demand forced the county to ban irrigation for a month in 2007, and county officials have worked to bring additional capacity on-line.
But building a system for an existing community, upgrading and maintaining it are a big part of the reason why the county has some of the highest water and sewer rates around, Hissong said.
A Greene County water and sewer customer’s combined bill averages about $257 quarterly, according to a rate survey compiled each year by the city of Oakwood.
In comparison, Fairborn and Xenia residents pay an average rate of $192 and $177 respectively. The lowest combined costs are in Miamisburg with $113.
The excess capacity is stemming from the shut down of the Delphi plant on Webster and the 50% decline in water use by Cargill. With these two guzzlers sobering up, Dayton is running its treatment facility at about 50% capacity.
With revenues declining from all sources, the investment Dayton residents made in their state of the art water system should be able to help generate some badly needed cash right now.
Though I don’t know the details, I’ve been told that control of water is how Columbus was able to annex many surrounding towns, making Columbus the largest city in Ohio (geographically). Imagine if Dayton had done the same.
If water was a stock I’d be buying it by the barrel, as water is going to become more scarce and thus more valuable throughout the country and world. Dayton is in a pretty sweet position in this regard; the question is – will the city capitalize on this valuable resource?
Whaaat are you saying David? This type of redirection of Dayton’s Natural Resources is just the thing that promoted sprawl in the first place. Dumb. How about this logic. “The Midwest is dead and all that excess water could be piped to Las Vegas and Asphaltastan (Phoenix) where people really want to live” Stupid. This is the problem with people, trust in the Biology and the Geology of the Earth first and then Engineer solutions with care.
Connect the effing dots, take a look at the increased fees for Greene County Waste Water Treatment. This is a direct result of expanding the system so Southern Montgomery County and Greene County can sprawl some more even though Montgomery County is paying for most of the system upgrades. The water being used in Northern Warren County is from Montgomery County and probably Dayton’s water. That is why Chuck Curran cut the ribbon at the 2003 Homearama located in Warren County. I am not against Regionalism, but I am against sprawl, because we cannot afford it. We can no longer afford the infrastructure due to the spread out nature of the system. The American Way of Life is Certainly Negotiable!
Dayton should sell their unemployed workers for pennies on the dollar – and should sell water to whoever wants to buy it. Sprawl is a forgone conclusion, and leaving Dayton is something most normal people want to do until they tear down old, outdated, bad floor plan, rotting houses and replaces them with newer and greener houses and allow people to see the huge benefits of this type of living. Sell the water, we need the money to build better. Building better will attract more people with better jobs, increasing the tax base and BOOM, you have what you need, money.
Sprawl is GREAT, tm, and I support it bc cities like Dayton do not place a priority on education and family, the backbone to a good society. They think being a single parent on welfare is ok and think it is a schools job to raise their kid – well, it ain’t the schools job and people like that are being kept down bc of their poor decisions. Until you solve these “city” problems people want to live in relatively safe neighborhoods where kids can learn and working is the norm.
Dayton should sell whatever it can sell – it certainly is not selling the “urban” theme. Dayton needs to go green and gay to get ahead of other cities in similar situations, but that may be too progressive even for the liberals. Think forward.
Well Gene, two out of Three ain’t bad :) Gay and Green, but which Green do you mean, Gene? Green like energy, from burning trash Oops shut that down. Dumb. Green like a common steam loop, OOPs shut that down. Green like legalization of Marijuana! Sprawl is too expensive! You will see and yes Dayton needs to hack personnel and services because it is a ghost town and cannot support the sprawl it built, but neither can the rest. Wait til the stimulus bill passes like a pig through a Python and the fiefdoms in Sprawlville are confronted with cutting services or increasing taxes. Shovel your own walk and your own street, burn trash in the backyard. Third World here we come, thanks to Wall Street and DC. The false religion is not the Zodiac?Horoscope it is Capitalism. Good Luck!
Captain Hunter is right on target.
Sprawl was the death of America.
Gene is just an old-bitter bigot.
I grew up in Hills and Dales, which when my parent relocated there fifty-five years ago was considered a suburb of Kettering–“sprawl”. And I suppose that my Father’s family was guilty of perpatrating “sprawl” when they relocated from Virginia to Montgomery County in 1821–or when emigrated from Bristol to the Massachusetts Bay Colonly in 1635–more “sprawl”.
You people have turned the word “sprawl” into a Ghost Dance, that is, the epitomy of everything that’s wrong with modernity. And just as the Ghost Dance didn’t shield the Plains Indians from repeter rifle bullets, your invocation of “sprawl wont protect you from reality.
Hey Donnie boy one of the early ones, great you must be very successful as those that got here early and clawed up usually do pretty well. Glad you are up on the rung baby. I am sure you are too good for Hills and Dales these days right. Where are you Springboro, Boca Raton , oh that’s right New York. Well NYC did not sprawl out too much because it had barriers to growth. I E it was cheaper and more efficient to build up instead of out. But in Dayton, we have more land than brains, so we built out and sprawled out. It does not matter the data will speak, these sprawled out areas cannot afford the carrying costs of the infrastructure, so either your taxes are going to go up or essential services are going to be cut.
I only use sprawl as an issue that indicates that we have too many people and too few resources. In fact I do not care for myself I am just pointing out that we are all on the rock together and in order for everyone to live “decent” lives we have to give up some things. The data indicates that our resources to live this sprawl life are on the decline (oil and natural gas allowed for the population boom), so I would like to give up living an energy intensive lifestyle and would gladly traded it for access to excellent food, liquor, a decent way to earn a living and shelter for all.
Again I do not care because there are too many people who do not get it and who cares right, but I only care about analyzing the data and coming to a logical conclusion. I will put my forecasts against any one. So I have no debt and I own nothing except stock which the boys in NYC are effectively killing so who cares. As we continue down this path the future is assured and you can embrace sprawl all you want, but you cannot eat sprawl.
This discussion so far is a good example of how the locals don’t really understand the concept of regionalism or use it as code for ‘”bailing out Dayton”.
Regionalism or a regional approach to development and infrastructure is not “Dayton ‘getting well’ by selling its water to the suburbs”.
Regionalism is what Louisville has: a regional water and sewer system, with water provided by a countywide quango and sewer provided by a metropolitan sewer district (sort of like RTA or the conservancy district). Or what Lexington has, an urban service area limiting utilty extensions, thus preserving valuable farmland.
For this to happen would be for all the various water and sewer departments to merge into a regional authority. Then the whole issue of who is selling water or sewer service to who goes away and the systems are operated as true regional enterprises, with costs and rates established based on operating costs and capital investments for the system as whole.
Expansions could be linked to some serious regional planning with teeth akin to Lexingtons urban service boundary.
This kind of thinking is way WAY to outside-the-box for this area. Laughable to even discuss regionalism here.
Sounds like me, which is why my blog is dying a slow death. People have e-mailed me why do I waste my time blogging on Dayton. They are correct. But I’m having a lot of fun posting on Louisville, though, over at Urban Ohio.
Jeffery,
You have one of the greatest blogs ever for historical content and analysis, but as with the rest of Dayton, we do not appreciate the Gem that it is, but you are appreciated! I really think you would be more appreciated if some of the older Daytonites could read your stuff. It would also be quite nice if you got your blog converted Esrati style so I can read it on the Iphone better. I may not comment all the time but I read it.
This blogging is just blowing in the wind really, but I will always view it is “you were warned”, so never fear I am peeing in the blue suit too. A warm feeling but nobody notices. Much love Jeffery and please turn your blog in to a PDF book. It would be great!
Sprawl has provided a lot of jobs, provides safer neighborhoods, has created a healthier and better educated individual. Where do you propose we put all of these people? The CITY of DAYTON can only house 250k people – we have 560k in the county, do you propose they all move to Cincy or NY or Chi or where exactly?
Sprawl has made better lives for more people – Losers, including me, hold on to some GD romantic notion of the city of Dayton. But the fact is Dayton is dead, has horrible schools (for the most part) too much crime, and is dirty. I love DAYTON, but it is dead.
Why does this make me a bigot, DD? You maybe a hillbilly that loves crap music and big time wrestling, but that does not exactly make you a loser. You may be a loser when you call people a bigot for no reason. DD, do you work for the government?
DE said the same thing when I use “street cred”, yet a week later someone else uses the same term and no comment. Frickin liberal hypocrites – too dumb to notice that they get in the way of their own ideas. DD, you my friend are a bigot as well. Keep pluggin along boyz, while your city and it citizens continue to deteriorate. Cry in those Wheaties, I’ll be drinking and having a good old time despite your proclamations of me being a bigot. Get a life Dayton Dead Beats………
Using a term like hillbilly is bigoted. Just like calling someone a nigger.
And if you ever meet me and call me that I will knock every single tooth you have left out.
Bank on it.
I’m an Appalachian dammit.
And you’re a bigot because you stereotype wide swaths of people. Anyone can tell you that people aren’t all alike. Just because you belong to culture A, subset B, doesn’t tell me ANYTHING about you as an individual.
You take broad based stereotypes, and apply them to individuals. That is the highest form of bigotry. Of course, a loser like you who never gets out to meet people from a wide spectrum of the socioeconomic and cultural spectrum wouldn’t know real live people as individuals, only stereotyped characters that persist in your fearful, chicken shit mind.
As someone who grew up in Appalachia (Wolfe County), and has experienced a lot of the bigotry in person that you espouse from the lovely comfort of your keyboard, I do get a little bit of a chuckle, however, when I read how miserable douchebags like you are when they realize that the fairytale world they imagined just never came to fruition. But at least they can take solace in blaming the “others.”
Gene never posts any links they are just BS of his own deluded beliefs. Look Geno, old Wiley Coyote thought he was flying til he hit the ground, same goes for sprawl. It is stupid and a sign we are no smarter than yeast. Think just one time Gene.
Links for what? That people of all races are on welfare? Calling me a bigot makes you a bigot. I said you MAY be a hillbilly if you call me a bigot (in some people’s opinion, not my opinion) When you call others bigots for no reason you set yourself up for being judged. I like THE DD – but I think it is uncalled for (you calling me a bigot) so therefore I call you one. Turnabout is fair play. I never used the N -word. You did. I know rich people, poor people, white, black, purple, gay, straight – I love them all. Those who I criticize are those who suck the government for money, and those who want the government to save them. They can be all of the above . I hate no one – even people who have screwed me over. I just want people to be more responsible and held accountable – boy, that makes me a bigot. Again, you calling me a bigot makes you one. Look in the mirror DD – and GH and DE – you guys all hate the successful person (for the most part) you rail on rich, success, religion, etc, doing this is PRE JUDGING, and that makes you prejudiced. Can you see your own hypocrisy? Maybe people moved out of the city bc the air quality is killing them Greg – does that make them STUPID or GREEDY or WRONG? Again, can you see your own hypocrisy? No, you are too busy defending the rights of criminals and railing against those who bother no one and are successful and help people and are productive – bigots. LINK TO WHAT -??? we all know we have welfare queens, people who screw the system, criminals – what link do you want? Newspapers or national stats that say some people screw us over? shit, watch the news, read the news, live in Dayton. It happens in front of us all the time. DD threatens me – and DE thinks it is ok. Well, I don’t have to call you anything,… Read more »
greg did not provide a link to why sprawl is bad…………………….
Sprawl may not be all that bad…………………… :
http://www.plannersweb.com/sprawl/lemm.html
http://www.robertbruegmann.com/_images/reviews/WashingtonTimes.pdf
http://www.robertbruegmann.com/_images/reviews/WashingtonTimes.pdf
welfare hurts society:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080225061535AA5HBMS
These are, for the most part, arguments that say sprawl is good and welfare isn’t great. But these are OTHER people’s opinions.
My opinion, real quick, are the following:
Sprawl is good bc it is CHOICE. I believe you choose what you want to do, where you want to live, who you want to do it with, etc. It helps eliminate traffic, provides security for those who feel insecure, provides a healthier life and lifestyle. Sprawl puts people to work and educates people better than cities. Sprawl inspires people to work, dieing cities do not.
Welfare hurts productive people (by taking their money) and never solves the problem, and in fact it may add MORE PEOPLE (many neglected) to an already growing population. Welfare adds to crime and poverty by making people want to produce more kids they can not afford.
Sell our number one resource: unemployed workers.
Here now, I did not threaten you. I merely informed you of the outcome of such words uttered in a hypothetical meeting (guess what Gene, you would have to pay me money to meet you, because me thinks you a bore).
I would think anyone anywhere would think it reasonable for a black man to tell anyone that they would knock their teeth out if they called them a nigger. I being an Appalachian, am offended when non-Appalachians use the word hillbilly – especially in derogatory terms considering the massive economic exploitation suffered by the Appalachian people throughout the centuries, continuing in to today. People like H.L. Mencken demonized Appalachians as hillbillies and savages in huge P.R. campaigns all designed to pave the way for Oligarchal economic interests to savage Appalachians. One of the original derogatory terms was hillbilly.
So yeah Gene, you are a hateful little bigot. You type words here all the time that would amount to fighting words for lots of people (My illuminating you to how that makes people feel was my intent). You are no better or no worse than anyone. Ultimately you are doomed and are only currently existing in a temporary state. So why bother with all the hate and put downs? Every one is their own person. You don’t have to live anyone’s life, and nobody has to live yours. So why do you always have to be down on people?
That kind of hatred deserves a swift thwack in all situations, from the bigotry of Gene, to the bigotry of the Nazi Party. It’s all the same, this bigotry, this us vs. them.
The “others” (cultural anthropology term Gene) are always to blame for the evils aren’t they Gene?
There but for the protoplasmic chance of the universe go I Gene.
Put people down? You mean the ones that take my money and use it as toilet paper, for lack of a better analogy. I still pay the money, they still waste it and want more, and I still agree to pay. Geez, what a jerk I am for cooperating in a system that is a joke and is broke. BAD BAD ME. They get my cash, therefore I offer some opinions. Just like you DD, GH and others.
I love all – I just want people to be responsible and accountable.
Call me a bigot to my face and maybe you could have the same fate you spew. I never really called you a HB (only you might be) and HB is a ref I use for Daytonians. I did not know where you came from, but I do know you live in Dayton (or Drexel.) I should have called you an ash-hole, it would have been more fitting in this case. YOU started by calling ME a bigot. Then you cry when you get a name thrown your way. Pound that fist, cry cry cry, but you started the name calling DD.
You, my friend, are a bigot.
BTW, G.Up. You think you are better than me…… essentially that is what and how you always write. Calling me a bigot are fighting words……… can’t you see how you are a hypocrite?
You hate suburbanites……… yet you are judging? GIVE ME A BIG DAYTONIAN BREAK. GD LIB.
LOL @ the idea that calling someone a bigot makes the person doing the calling a bigot also.
You have one of the greatest blogs ever for historical content and analysis
Thank you, & I sometimes try to throw a little “I heard this great band” stuff in so its not all history. And I am really doing suburban blogging now, pretty much gave up on Dayton city. I just commented here becuase of the “regional” angle, which is sort of silly considering the politics of it all…
This blogging is just blowing in the wind really, but I will always view it is “you were warned”, so never fear I am peeing in the blue suit too
Hah, yeah, actually I sort of prefer the “forum” format as it’s more of a discussion. That’s why I like Urban Ohio so much. There really aren’t enough people in Dayton interested in “urbanism” or urban affairs, so UO is a good place to have a running bull session on the topic.
by DD definition it is………………
When you call someone a bigot and they are not then in fact that someone has been a victim (in this case me) or being pre-judged and stereotyped. I said cities like Dayton support things like single mom’s, which they do BTW. Dayton(the citizens) supports single moms and single moms on welfare (accepting of this = support). I AM A CITIZEN AND RESIDENT OF DAYTON – I support them by my money and presence. A lot of other communities (suburbia) do not support (morally) them – that is fact. That is what I was pointing out. And I can not blame people who move out of the city (Dayton in this case) when they do not like the behavior of their neighbors. Intolerant people should move out of cities.
I, by living here, accept it and everyone and everything, like most of you. We would be better off if people would stop having kids, something GH points out all the time, yet I get called a bigot when I say the same thing. Unreal.
Oh, I forgot. Single mom’s are evil. Silly me.
You got owned.
Never said they were evil………… just pointed out that a lot of people who live/moved to suburbia hate this kind of thing, along with crime and drugs and etc….
actually, I think the men involved with the single mom’s are more responsible for the problems they have…….. I only mention SM bc a report last night said 40% of kids are born to SM. Some people don’t like this and want to move away from it, bc SM in cities often have those STELLAR men hanging around…………..oh wait, I am a bigot bc these men are evil, ahhhhhhhhhhhhh………….
DD, still interested in beating me up? I hope you do, so you get sent off to jail and I sue your ass for all the money you have!!!!!!!!! Nine nickels or 900k, I will take either.
I have 3 good friends in Dayton who are SM – and they wish more than anything that they could have made better decisions, although they (as well as me ) love these kids.
DD, you want me to pay you to meet you, you must be a prostitute………
You must fall into a SD situation if you are sooooooooooo offended. You are a government employee, right DD?
Gene,
You had to search pretty hard on that sprawl did you not? While the loonie times is suspect it is still a paper but so is the DDN and that is not saying much, but here is a nice assessment of Robert if you care to read it. It is classic and I thank you for pointing it out as Kunstler takes em down in style. Ha, you are as shallow as a pie pan.
http://www.robertbruegmann.com/_images/reviews/Kunstler.pdf
Now the other sprawl article is so filled with caveats that is like building Utopia as none of the characteristics that make sprawl sustainable are evident in any of the developments built in the Dayton Region except maybe River Ridge out in Sugar Creek. Name a development with well and septic Gene. Do you even read any of the things that you post or if you do, do you know what critical thinking is?
I was just proving that there were other arguments, that in fact sprawl is not all that bad and does have some positives. You write as if sprawl has done no good, when if fact it has. Don’t be a complete jerk, you are not the authority on sprawl. Sprawl has both good and bad components, any reasonable adult understands that – you, however, suggest that sprawl is evil, has no positives, and are all-knowing regarding this subject. Well, you are not. Sprawl is natural, it has happened, and in fact is good – MY OPINION. It is good bc it has provided safe neighborhoods, provided jobs by building homes and streets, has built wealth in areas that have been poor, has created wonderful schools, has allowed people to live healthier lifestyles, helps eliminate traffic in the city center therefore actually using less gas. Many many many good, no GREAT things have happened bc of sprawl. The positives of sprawl are what make a city unattractive – poor education, high crime, no jobs, unsanitary and dirty living conditions, etc. I am right my friend. BTW, I live in Dayton and do not plan on ever moving to suburbia – but there are some things that make suburbia better than “the city.”
And don’t worry Gene, I am not a violent man. However, when I read how you assess and address individuals in a de-humanizing manner, those old hairs on the back of the neck stand straight up. That is what I want to communicate. Your ideas anger others because they peel back so much pain and bitterness – especially if you have lived as part of a subculture that is denigrated on a regular basis by the dominant culture.
But this is all useless. Communicating with you, that is. Perhaps finding out why I bother is a better question.
Gene you are the epitome of Dayton. I feel safer in Bucharest than in Dayton because the playing field is level by lack of sprawl, which is the point. When you cannot afford to leave, then the issues are addressed. You are just intellectually and spiritually lazy, just like the rest of Dayton, Black and White. Luke Warm and you will be spewed out of the mouth!
Two examples of success,
Look at how the conversation began. Now look at how it ended. We are better than this. The collective creativity we all possess should elevate not denigrate. Lets not get tripped up over words. Regionalism can be another word for cooperation. It utimately depends on how its done.
Actually we are not.
Regionalism is another word for cooperation. But that wasn’t what was suggested in Esrati’s post.
In fact this was what was suggested:
With revenues declining from all sources, the investment Dayton residents made in their state of the art water system should be able to help generate some badly needed cash right now.
…in other words, using water fees and charges to the suburbs to subsidize Dayton’s general fund? Seriously?
If the city currently operates the water department this way I would say that it is being mismanaged, since utilties like water are usually managed as self-sustaining enterprise funds, not as cash cows for the general fund.
This is basic public finance.
I leave you all to your own devices for 2 days and it goes into the sewer.
I wasn’t suggesting blackmail of Greene County with water, I was suggesting utilizing our existing water infrastructure. Not a subsidy.
Now as to all the name calling: Please ignore Gene until he presents himself in person to one of you. He makes comments as if he was places where I was, yet never introduces himself. For all we know, he could be someone living in a loony bin.
Now, if I could only get a $1 for every comment, my campaign fund would be growing at an astonishing rate.
It is astounding that this post got 31 comments. 31! I’d love to have 31 comments on my own blog. (God I hate that word.) But if they were 31 comments like most of these , I’d delete them. Sorry, Gene, you know I love you, but you and all the others are better than you represent yourselves here.
I was suggesting utilizing our existing water infrastructure. Not a subsidy.
…utilitizing it to generate some “badly needed cash”. Your words.
For what? To retire any debt on the water system? Is the water system running at a deficit?
David we were missing you and I am wondering if you are actually Gene :) just get the conversation going.
Jeff – Louisville is more like Cincinnati in that it has barriers to growth and it was foresighted or lucky enough to adopt the Regional approach. You of course would have more insight on the dynamics, but I would contend that less contentious race relations played a critical role, but that is just supposition based on my perception of the lack of a unionized work force during the 40’s to the 70’s????
Yes Lexington gets it because the Horse boys know and Lexington knows if they want to keep the unique character of Lexington, you must preserve the space through some thought and subsidy. While the Bluegrass does not really require the subsidy as they were smart enough to ensure the horse business survives. The horse game provides green space and jobs, which most Ohioans and the Captain of this ship does not get. There would be horse farms thriving in Ohio if we understood the true dynamics of supporting and financing local agriculture.
I’ll have to ante up and apologize to all. That said, it just needs to be noted that those are the REAL kind of emotions that are stirred up in people (me especially – I got this justice thing ingrained from listening to the gospels so much), when they are labeled by others.
“To label me is to negate me.”
Soren Kierkegaard
Jeff- to generate cash to pay for other services. The system runs 24/7/365 obviously. The cost of additional water is minimal- we have the capacity. There is nothing that says we can’t sell water.
I’m sorry if you think this is some kind of profiteering or way to fix deficits.
I think it is funny that someone is offended by a stupid word that was used to name a TV show – it really can’t be all that offensive.
Yet, never heard of a TV show with “Bigot” in it, yet somehow calling me a bigot is not as bad.
Then, I get threatened. DE would public scold me and ban me if I did this, but being the hypocrite he is he does not apply this to other people, especially those who endorse him.
I saw Mayor Mclin eating at Cafe Boulevard, and I did not introduce myself to her. I don’t introduce myself to people in restaurants.
And, ask the AfAmerican population of Louisville if they like the regionalism thing – it essentially has taken away all their political power. Good luck getting this done in Dayton – people hate to give up power.
I also saw Jack Nicklaus at a restaurant in Columbus, again, no autograph from him nor an introduction from me.
But we are requesting to meet you Gene, those others are not! You Kill Me!
If I see you out I will say hey – but I don’t know who you are Greg. I see people from afar, often, and in court with masks on.
Greg, don’t you live in Hungry with that Chicago family? Something like that……. I am not planning on going to Hungry anytime soon, but I am going to Costa Rica next month, so if you are there, well then………..
One good reason to avoid this silly nonsense or regionalism:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/daytoncrime/entries/2009/03/27/sheriff_temporarily_shuts_down.html