Nice props over on For the love of Dayton [1] today- Seth, thank you! We decided to talk about why people love or don’t love Dayton in your honor. Actually, we got slightly sidetracked and talked about all the reasons people leave Ohio- at least, what we could fit in 6:40.
We’re not sure what the allure is living in places like Florida where you can’t have a basement (especially when you have hurricanes that could make a basement a handy dandy safe place)- or in the big cities like NYC or LA- where you can’t afford much more than a closet for what you can buy a manse here.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6C3sT0X9iM[/youtube]Dayton is a lot more than “a nice place to raise a family”- it’s a great place to do business, we just have to stop serving up so much whine.
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I’m a young, non-child bearing, partying, spending individual. I like Dayton. Most of my friends who’ve moved away are interested in a “scene”. They move to NY, or LA, Chicago and end up working crazy hours to keep their apartments and can’t enjoy the city anyway. I think many Ohioans hate their cities, and this had been passed onto the new generation. Ohio/Dayton really needs to retain its young people. When the older generations start to die out, whose going to be left. Especially educated young people, most all of my friends from Dayton with degrees or forms of education have left for bigger cities for jobs, an identity crisis or two…. Get some jobs and areas of the city that are young-people friendly and affordable.
You have to create your own scene; be it music, art, film, sports, etc… Moving to a metropolis will not make you an instant rock star. Look at Kim Deal, Bob Pollard, etc… In their case they created everything themselves, including fictitious record labels and bands for their home recordings. Although I have to say many younger Daytonians do not like GBV or the Breeders, or any group from the early-mid 90’s Dayton Indie rock scene. Crabs in the bucket. When these groups/artists got popular and start making real money, people are amazed they stayed in Dayton. Because…..it’s not bad in Dayton at all.
No reason to thank me, you guys are doing the yeoman’s work. But, thank you for asking the question that is answered with “For the love of Dayton.” The civic character that does things out of love is motivated by the purest and least suspicious instincts. If enough people woke up to their civic duty, the possibilities are endless. Just look at the dry dams and the Miami Conservancy District. It was and continues to be a one of a kind endeavor funded by loving Daytonians.
Joe hit the nail on the head. Reminds me of a favorite quote of mine:
“The great majority of men are not original, for they are not primary, have not assumed their own vows, but are secondaries – grow up and grow old in seeming and following; and when they die they occupy themselves to the last with what others will think, and whether Mr. A or Mr. B will go to their funeral. ”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841
Leaving Dayton? Why?
Because it sucks. Stay tuned for my nifty “Dayton Sucks” bumper stickers. Say, Esrati, can you recommend a good graphic designer for these?
Look at Kim Deal, Bob Pollard, etc… In their case they created everything themselves, including fictitious record labels and bands for their home recordings.
…Kim Deal made her name as part of a band called the Pixies. Then she formed the Breeders. Both of these bands were based in Boston They were real bands with real record deals, part of a real local music scene.
Jeffery, why’d you come to Dayton? Do the Friends of the Arcade suck? You’re entitled to your opinion, but I couldn’t disagree more.
…Kim Deal made her name as part of a band called the Pixies. Then she formed the Breeders. Both of these bands were based in Boston They were real bands with real record deals, part of a real local music scene.
The Breeders weren’t successful as their own project until The Lash Splash was released on the strength of the single “Cannonball,” at which point they were very much a Dayton band. The point being, the Breeders achieved success in Dayton. The overwhelming majority of bands that make up the Portland and Austin music scenes aren’t originally from those cities, but they achieve success in those respective cities, just as the Breeders achieved success in Dayton.
But I would definitely buy a “Dayton Sucks” bumper sticker, regardless. I think that’s a great idea.
I like Dayton, Greg’s sentiment about ‘what it could be, not what it is’ pretty much sums up how I feel. Midwestern winters are not friendly though, bitter cold and low levels of sunlight. That’s not Dayton specific, but I think it’s a big contributor to the ‘Dayton sucks’ vibe you get from the folks that are ‘forced’ to be here (most of whom are too young to realize there are much worse places). It’s all relative though, if you’ve just spent a year or so in the desert, Dayton looks pretty damn good!
Why do people in this region think that having a basement is some sort of big desirable asset? I laugh every time I drive by a house for sale and it’s got a little extra note on the sign that says “full basement!” Really? Wow, that’s neat… BTW, you evacuate for hurricanes, you certainly don’t hide in a hole below grade (storm surge / torrential rains).
I love Dayton, but is it really special? Columbus, Cincy, Clev, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Indy, Louisville, St Louis, Nashville and obviously Chicago are all cities that are not only bigger but in many respects “better.” (Cities somewhat close to Dayton)
Florida – ahhh, sun, beaches, ocean, hmmmmmmmm. And you wonder why? Not my thing, I rather visit now and again, but a boat load of people love the beach, the ocean, the sun.
No doubt about the huge cities where you get lost and you pay out the nose. But expensive cities have almost everything you want, minus the price tag.
But to be “on topic” what makes Dayton so different from other cities near us? I like it but it is only special to me bc I am from here. Lack of jobs, lack of leadership, an identity crisis. Again I love it but certainly can see how others don’t.
I’m enchanted by the story of John H. Patterson and what he, more than anyone else, did to make Dayton the Gem City. He did it out of love and respect for the city’s (and his) forebears who did so much to turn the wilderness into a city.
But it is frustrating and Patterson seriously threatened to leave the city multiple times. For three years, he ran the city remotely from NYC (sound familiar)? One of the best instances of such a threat played out in a tw0-and-a-half-hour lambasting JHP leveled against the citizens and their leaders in the NCR Auditorium. Cox lampooned the event in his paper but was forced to backdown after the citizens woke up to the importance of NCR and JHP to Dayton.
Now, where is our JHP? No one is as invested as he was, few care as much either, and only a handful have his sort of self-confident courage. Maybe Jeffery’s right?
@Seth – Nice Quote! I’ve been meaning to read some Emerson. I’ll have to go to the library. @Jeffery “…Kim Deal made her name as part of a band called the Pixies. Then she formed the Breeders. Both of these bands were based in Boston They were real bands with real record deals, part of a real local music scene. ” The Pixies were Frank Blacks band, always were and will be. Kim had a few songs per record. In my opinion, The Breeders are her claim to fame, and I would not say they are a Boston band at all. Kim is the only consistent member, and like Ron said they didn’t get real big until Last Splash. The Amps Pacer (Kim Deal’s other band) album is excellent. Jim MacPherson is in both, and drums on many great albums from Dayton artists. Listen to the first track of Waved Out by Robert Pollard to here how great of a drummer he is. The fake record labels/albums/bands is mostly a Bob Pollard thing, but it part of the charm and complete package. Have you heard the latest track by Indian Alarm Clock? It rocks! Other Great Dayton Bands, from various eras: Real Lulu Braniac Tobin Sprout The Method Mink The Esther Caulfield Orchestra Jesse Remnant Robert Pollard (solo and side projects) Human Reunion Motel Beds Smug Brothers Captains of Industry Nick Kizernas Drexel Zapp Roger Troutman Ohio Players I think Dayton is a well of creativity. Lots of people/ideologies/politics/lifestyles at odds with each other, mixing around. That emotion and spirit has to come out somewhere in some form. Some times you get road rage, sometimes you get Bee Thousand. This is certainly the case in other cities, and places not in Ohio, but I think there is something specifically unique about Dayton. Basement tinkerers make good on hard, oft drunken work. Anyone can go somewhere big and become a slave to the city, not many people can say they are from Dayton, Ohio. I like that I can say it, and I refuse to be made to feel bad about… Read more »
Can’t keep businesses open in Dayton. Gem City is closed. Who will close next?
Music wise Dayton use to be a bit better, but people realized if they were to even have a glimmer of hope being noticed they needed to move. But of course music is the biggest scam going. Every other musician (at best) is good, a lot ride on the “coolness” of it with no real talent or originality. But being original is harder, bc music has evolved to the point where the influences are rehashed faster than New Tiger Woods news in the last week or so. Copy cat after copy cat. Sort of. More cut and paste from different musicians and different times.
If they want a real music scene they need better venues.
Gem City is closed. Who will close next?
Really? It was open last week…
I used to have alot of respect for your work until you turned into such a seemingly foul person, online at least. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, though for someone who spent alot of time/effort studying the region, did you just not like what you found? Can you expand on any of this? I’ve never met you personally, but whats holding you back here? If it pains you so much to be in Dayton, do your best to leave and be happy somewhere else.
I actually divide my time between Dayton and Louisville, & I am looking for work there. My serious online posts are now on Louisville, found here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/louisville-area/
What I do on Esrati is more trollwork vs serious posting.
@Jeff- Gem City Records closing end of Jan- DDN: http://www.daytondailynews.com/business/gem-city-records-in-oregon-district-closing-449978.html
Excellent. Dayton gets even more sucky. Rationalization is that this business happens online nowadays, so machts nichts….
..meanwhile, down in Louisville:
http://www.earx-tacy.com/home.htm
…and….
http://digital.thinkindie.com/stores.php?playlist_id=38&ref=9
…but you don’t have to travel that far:
http://www.shakeitrecords.com/Shakeit-store.html
Jeff, ya Dayton has it’s issues and some of those issues suck. I’m glad your moving to Louisville. Hopefully soon and hopefully you won’t endeavor to ruin things for those of us who don’t share your opinion.
What the Dayton region offers that is appealing to me is an affordable cost of living with many of the amenities that can be found in larger cities. Overall, I think there are amenities that are missing on the neighborhood level that forces one to hop in the car to the nearest shopping mall but that isn’t peculiar to Dayton. That’s a nationwide trend. The city has a lot of history, character, historic housing, parks, etc. that are appealing to me. Keep this in context that I am older and raising a family. I love Dayton. I have the perspective of having lived all over the country. I never really understand the argument that there is nothing to do here. I think that’s crazy, there’s things to do all over the place if one is interested in looking for those things. But to many the grass is greener and I wish them the best. I remember what it’s like to be a twenty something and from that perspective Dayton would probably suck too. I just have lost my appetite for spending $200.00 dollars a night in a club that may not even let me in because “I ain’t dressed”. If I couldn’t find work, Dayton would definitely suck. Now, I don’t miss the two hour one way commute, working nights and weekends, insane competition for even menial jobs, ultra high rent (forget about ownership), ultra high insurance premiums, ultra small living spaces, etc. that large cities have. I feel I have a much better quality of life here in Dayton. Oh, but those place have a thriving “this or that” scene. Sooner or later those “scenes” lose their appeal as a person gets older and other issues come into focus like will I be paying rent in some cracker box apartment when I am 60. Those sort of issues are pretty sobering. Now, with my fanboy speech out of the way, Dayton (I mean the city of Dayton) REALLY needs to stop the bleeding. If we don’t stop bleeding jobs and tenants in downtown it’s just going to… Read more »
It’s funny how I’ve run into lots of friends and acquaintences my age (30-ish bracket) who are “back in town” after having moved away; full of stories about how great it is in X town, and how much Dayton sucks, and how, oh, when they just get more money, they’re leaving this ‘burg.
Really? And you’re not there now because …. ? For most of the reasons already listed by Will, very eloquently. It’s an absolute trade-off in many aspects – affordable living for crappy weather about six months of the year or so. Smaller, more intimate venues/stores/dining for lack of jobs in emerging sectors. Chances to be more daring and experimental for not having a large enough audience to reach and/or appreciate what might be “big news” in a big city (or not).
I want to get out of Dayton … to travel. There’s a lot I need to see, and being impatient, I want to see it all now. But I like this city of ours, and I’d like to eventually be able to put down permanent, home-owning roots here someday.
(Not going to lie, though – I’m still thinking wistfully of the beautiful, 75-degree beaches of Cayo Costa I left after Thanksgiving. Florida has basically become Ohio’s second-life migration station! LOL)
Hopefully soon and hopefully you won’t endeavor to ruin things for those of us who don’t share your opinion.
That’s pretty presumptious. That I myself can somehow ruin things for Daytonians. Dayton people have done a damn good of ruining their own city and metro area, and need no help from me.
How has Dayton been ruined? Who did it? What specific people/groups/companies/government agencies?
We lost jobs like many other cities. We need to attract business (from other areas that want to relocate or expand) and make it easy to start new businesses. That is what we do not know what to do. I suggest we copy cat others successful cities. Why bother with some dynamic, out-side-of-the-box thinking? Keep it simple. Business means jobs, jobs mean money, money means better life style (for the most part.)
Too many people on the government hand out system, not enough producers here. It is all about business to the area. Period. It is not about services or water. Those things go along with attracting business, but are only a small part.
Coke may want to relocate/expand in Dayton. There is our ace in the hole.
@Jeff – I apologize. You’re right, that was presumptuous. I lashed out at you because you keep emphasizing “suck” and I think pessimism sucks. I should let you vent your frustrations your own way and leave you be.
Louisville interests me for many reasons, not the least of which is UniGov. Perhaps, instead of going on about how Dayton sux, could you compare points of growth and development that Dayton could emulate to get back on track?
http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/oh/story/opinions/editorial/2008/11/23/ddn112308kevinxx.html
This link is old as hell and probably an exercise in futility for those who attended but it has some interesting points.
Being happy with where one lives is a lot like being happy with one’s relationship status. The single people who whine the most about not liking being single are the least likely to find that special someone and the least ready to be in a relationship. People who whine overly much about where they live aren’t likely to be happy living anywhere.
I’ll grant (and have said before) that there are better places to live than Dayton. There are also places that are much, much worse.
Wherever you go, there you are.
As a former Daytonian living in Miami, FL.; it’s really simple why people leave the north for the south.
1) Sun and warmth; cold, cloudy Dayton winters would drag me down. Florida has great weather (although summers can be unbearable) and I can hit the beach in December!
2) Opportunity; With a lot of northern migration to the south for that purpose, a whole lot of $$$ comes with it. At it’s peak a few years back, Florida was adding 1,000 people a day to the state.
Dayton does have some considerable adavantages including great people, great sense of community, and affordability. It’s really the weather and economy that hinder it. But with global warming, maybe Dayton is the Miami of tomorrow.
Jeff,
I am glad that you came to our town, presented the obvious too people and as a result, no one did a thing. People that analyze data and make correct interpretations are shunted aside for those with FAITH. One in the markets and the other in God (at least the misinterpreted mainstream beliefs) or worse as synergistic belief in both – Crazy.
Thanks for trolling/responding as your data seems to prove most of my thesis. Much Love and Luck!
Thanks, Greg. Greetings from Louisville. When I was doing that blogging I wasn’t expecting anyone to really do anything. I knew better than that. I was never really doing any advocacy there, aside from some political stuff on behalf of Esrati. It was an experiment with a different format than the Urban Ohio forum format, which it turns out I like better than blogging, since it’s more of a conversation. As for Dayton, it is what it is and the people here are what they are. Just not my kind of town.
Dayton was founded about 200 years ago.
The first 100 years was spent wrestling the city from the wilderness and overcoming the challenges of scarcity, commerce, transit and livability.
The last 100 years saw the boom of Dayton into a world-class city with international influence. Then the Depression, WWII, the ravages of the 60s and 70s hit Dayton hard and job losses and social decay started to flood the city.
Now we find ourselves in the city’s third century with an opportunity to be builders and innovators again. We aren’t wrestling the city from the wilderness and we don’t have to contend with Mother Nature’s floods. No, our problems are more difficult. We need to break through the thorny thicket of a mental wilderness that has engulfed too many minds in our city. We have to dam the flood waters of social disease and decay from dissolving all that makes us unique and connects us to our shared past.
That’s who we need in Dayton. That’s the real “creative class:” those who are thinking about problems whose solutions will create jobs and not suck tax dollars and those who are prone to see the evil of social decay for what it is and fight it with virtue as well as time, effort and money.
Enjoy your life Jeff wherever you roam. I’ll enjoy mine right here in Dayton, my city.
Jobs. Jobs. Oh, and jobs.
We have everything we need to succeed- housing, natural resources, brain power in some great schools, we simply need to make Dayton small business friendly, which creates the freedom to create the life you want, the job you want, with the least restrictions. Make Dayton a Right to Work city, or make Ohio a right to work state. Otherwise, small businesses= those businesses that are truly beneficial for communities, will seek elsewhere.
Make Dayton a Right to Work city, or make Ohio a right to work state.
I didn’t know what Right to Work meant, so I googled it, finding a helpful Wikipedia article. I was curious as to whether Right to Work states have lower unemployment so I checked the latest figures, and there’s no correlation. In Nov 2008 6 of the 9 states with the highest unemployment rates were Right to Work states; in Nov 2009 4 of the top 9 are. In Nov 2008 of the 22 states with Right to Work laws 9 of them were in the top 25 for unemployment and 13 were in the bottom 25; in Nov 2009 10 were in the top 25 and 12 in the bottom 25. For a fun sortable chart listing state unemployment rates and whether states have Right to Work laws you can go to http://www.davidlauri.com/righttowork.
As for freedom and Right to Work laws, it seems even Libertarians, the group that wants the least government interference, disagree about these laws. The Wikipedia article points out that repealing Right to Work laws used to be part of the Libertarian party platform although it was removed in 2006, not because there was widespread agreement among Libertarians that such laws are good but rather because the Libertarians decided not to have platform “planks upon which there is significant disagreement among membership.”
So, Teri, can you explain more clearly why you think making Ohio a Right to Work state would be beneficial for us?
>So, Teri, can you explain more clearly
I can certainly try.
Last things first. Not being a Libertarian, I can’t address anything about that party platform.
The post topic is about why people are leaving Dayton. If you look at what states have grown in population over the last decade, they are RtW states. In general businesses looking for the most business-friendly environment, RtW states definitely have an edge.
>I didn’t know what Right to Work meant, so I googled it
There ya go! Esrati.com is always an educational experience. :)
As for freedom and Right to Work laws, it seems even Libertarians, the group that wants the least government interference, disagree about these laws. (David Lauri)
Well, David, Libertarians (with the capital L) are a contrary and argumentative bunch. Lock two libertarians in a room with filet mignon, a bottle of Lafite-Rothchild vino, some Simon Bolivar stogies and the physical charms of the Olson Twins, and there would probably be disagreement about the merits of the aforementioned. And the biggest ideological schism among libertarians involves illegal immigration; Wall Street Journal editorialists think illegal immigrants are just peachy and Border Patrolmen should go on unemployment. El Bandito de Helios and others argue that unbridled immigration is an assault on soverignity with the primary victims being the middle class. But of all the cussing, fussing and shushing libertarians do among themselves, the Old Bandito has never heard even one libertarian praise compulsory union membership. Union membership, be it the Teamsters, the NEA or the Screen Actors Guild, should be voluntary………..
If you look at what states have grown in population over the last decade, they are RtW states.
OK, I updated my chart to include population figures, and of the 10 states with the largest absolute growth, 7 of the top 10 are RtW (the three that are not are California, Washington and Colorado); of the 10 with largest growth as percentage of 2000 population, 9 out of top the 10 are RtW (the sole exception being Colorado).
However, there’s still not a direct correlation between a state’s having RtW laws and having population growth. Plenty of states with RtW laws fall in the bottom 25 states in terms of population growth by percentage (8 of the 22 RtW states) and in terms of absolute population growth (11 of the 22 RtW states).
So just saying Ohio should be a RtW state doesn’t show that it would be more like Texas (biggest absolute population growth) or Nevada (biggest population growth by percentage) than North Dakota or Louisiana, two RtW states whose population growth either absolutely or by percentage was less than Ohio’s.
And Nevada, a RtW state with the #1 population growth by percentage has an unemployment rate of 12.3%, higher than Ohio’s unemployment rate of 10.6%. In fact South Carolina, Florida and North Carolina are all RtW states with unemployment rates greater than Ohio’s. So just saying Ohio should be a RtW state doesn’t explain how our unemployment rate would decrease just because of RtW.
Do you have any data, Teri, that does show that RtW states are better off than non-RtW states?
the Old Bandito has never heard even one libertarian praise compulsory union membership
You may never have heard even one Libertarian praise compulsory union membership, but enough Libertarians were in favor of “repeal[ing] … all state right-to-work laws” that it was part of the Libertarian Party platform in 2004 — http://web.archive.org/web/20050211010919/http://lp.org/issues/platform/uniocoll.html — and even though it wasn’t part of the 2008 platform, neither was its converse, passing right-to-work laws in every state.
David-
If you like Michigan’s economy…:
Will RtW alone save Dayton? Probably not. Dayton could also dump some of it’s mid-west politeness and adopt some swagger, but becoming a RtW city certainly wouldn’t hurt.
David Lauri. Methinks you misunderstand the party position. The relationship between employer and employee is a voluntary agreement between two parties. And the state, libertarians feel, should have zero input or impact into that relationship. You notice the platform also advocates the abolition of the Wagner Act, which established a heavy handed bureaucracy with the power to compel and punish employers in labor disputes. And this begs the question; how many unions would exist is employers had the choice to simply ignore union elections and refuse to bargain? The party doesn’t just believe right to work laws should be repealed, they believe the laws regulating labor or management should not exist in the first place………….
>The relationship between employer and employee is a voluntary agreement between two parties. And the state, libertarians feel, should have zero input or impact into that relationship.
Well, that makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks, Bandito! I learned something too.
And another article that just came to my attn.
Methinks the Axis Powers won the war….. I would suspect those are Japanese and German auto makers that did not enjoy as much leeway to build overpriced crap while encouraging Americans to get lazy with engineering and quality, while finance types ruined the products (cost engineering) and sent the manufacturing overseas.
I say it here and it come out here; an article on the American Model.
Here’s a fun article about a side effect of the “free market” on the organizing of labor in the trucking industry:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-weakest-link/Content?oid=3041131
Money quote:
DL,
There are 2 things that come to mind:
1) There are too many truckers.
2) Why is it illegal for them to unionize? That is government interference and is not a free market.
Free is free, it is an absolute. You cannot be partially dead nor partially free. Let people contract for work as they see fit, or unionize as they see fit and leave it be. Neither side should be prejudiced against by the goverment.
UPS will own them all soon enough and they are unionized. That is your free market solution.
@Robert Vigh- You are talking out of your butt (again) UPS is employee owned and a private company. FedEx is non-union and pays considerably less. They are now the only two players, besides the Federally backed United States Postal Service in home delivery. However, DL wasn’t talking about trucking in general- had you read the article, you’d understand better. Keyword to pay attention to: Lobbyists.
Always the problem when special interests buy special interest legislation and interfere.
David L-
That’s not a free market, it’s a regulated market.
David Esrati,
You fail miserably. I am aware that UPS is private owned, as well as Fed-Ex. Fed-ex also provides cheaper rates for the savvy business person. UPS is also making a huge move into LTL and FTL shipping, meaning acquiring these routes might be of interest to them. Their logistics system allows higher pay to drivers. Hence, if UPS were to get involved, they would have unionized employee’s doing the work. It was an implied hypothetical. If you could read, you would understand better.
The article said lobbyist would contest costs that were trying to be forcibly put on them. Well, no shit captain. Did you happen to read this part:
“In short, the feds broke the port trucking system, and they’ll have to fix it. ”
Did you also happen to read that it is illegal for them to unionize? What regulation made that happen? Your own statement:
My point exactly. Make it impossible for government to interfere and you dont have to worry about special interest. Otherwise, be prepared for special interest to utilize their resources equally, in opposition to and many times successfully over the rest of us.
When you declare unfoundedly with a miserable fail post proclaiming that I am speaking from my arse, please expect a certain amount of sarcasm in return.
Hmmm, telling people that disagree with him that they’re talking out of their butt (again) and he wonders why he can’t get elected in this town??? You go, David!
Here’s a fun article, “In the Sorting Office,” about the privatization of the postal service in the Netherlands:
Every week Dutch households and businesses are visited by postmen and postwomen from four different companies. (David Lauri)
….and the Old Bandito’s favorite cinema noir from the Netherlands is “The Postman Always Rings Eight Times”…….