Interesting letter to the editor in the Dayton City Paper about the Dunbar/Fairmont basketball game and some racist little suburban kids. Well written, from a Kettering parent of a Fairmont cheerleader. Thank you Yvette Williams for speaking out.
I’ve got a PDF of it for you to read, since the DCP doesn’t have a proper web site:DCP letter 120909.pg18 [1]
I’ve tried to have a discussion about race and our community- with the post about “The White City” [2] but it devolved into a discussion about gay rights in the comments.
Here, Greg and I talk about the race issue- and what YOU can do about it in this community, starting today:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5NBee3PJCI[/youtube]We welcome your thoughts.
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@Gene – First, I called you two names. 1.) “Sort of a Butt Head”, which would indicate that in spite of your incessant rant filled, butt headed ways you do have many redeeming qualities. I would dare say many of them are overshadowed by your so-called style. 2.) I also, and more importantly, called you a troll. It’s important that we define troll so we are all on the same page: Courtesy of Wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion Maybe it’s just me but you seem to fit this definition to the letter. Troll. Now, if I wanted to follow your method of “pointing out” things that are wrong, you obviously missed the fact that I called you two names and therefore you must be lying, or hyporcitical, when you said I only called you one name. You obviously need to get your facts straight. I COULD ALSO throw in a few ALL CAPPED words just to emphasize the fact, that like you, I am drolling all over my keyboard as I type. But I really don’t want to do that because then you would turn around and call me a troll – and we could just keep going as we spiral further away from the topic, which is racism in Kettering’s Fairmont Highschool. As for Oakwood – maybe it’s an easy target because it has perception problems. The perception is that it’s inhabited by a dominant percentage of upper class seperatists who don’t like less “fortunate” people in their backyard no matter their race. Also, it has the reputation that the cops are a bit over zealous and don’t like outsiders. Especially if the outsider is a person of color in a hooptie. I digress. It’s still the common perception, or perhaps mis-perception. Who can say for sure? Racism in America is not isolated. It’s a problem that we need to deal with by admitting… Read more »
Most (if not all) regular blogger here are not racist. Most people in this county are not racist. I think this is somewhat of an isolated incident, mainly fueled by youth. I disagree. I will cop to the racist label. I grew up in a mostly Polish/Italian neighborhood of Chicago, Cragin. Back in the 1960s there was a push for open housing, leading to a protest march through my neighborhood, which turned into a riot. This was one of my childhood memories, seeing my dad, grandad, and neighbors involved in this. At mass that week they preached some kumbaya stuff. After that there was the collection. All the men in my pew tore buttons off their shirts and put it in the collection basket. The collection that Sunday was mostly of buttons. We just didnt want the blacks in our neighborhood. We saw what happened in Garfield Park and Lawndale. The blacks moved in, crime increased, businessess closed, property deteriorated, and those places turned into slums. The perception was that blacks were like locusts. They’d move into a neighborhood, destroy it, and then move on to the next neighborhood. Sure as hell we weren’t going to let that happen to Cragin. And guess what. It never did happen. Cragin eventually evovled into a Mexican neighborhood, second generation Mexicans who save up enough to buy a house… a two-flat or bungalow or workers cottage. This was always a blue collar place so instead of the blacks, first new Polish emigrants, then working class Mexicans, moved in. So what does that say for Dayton. Not sure. Chicago is a different place. As for the school issue, we had that in Louisville during my high school years. Back then, unlike in Dayton, the entire county was integrated via busing. The response was mass protests and riots. I was involved with that; tear gassed, booked, handed over to the National Gaurd, and eventually went to juvenile court and plead guilty, but was let off easy…yeah, I am probably the only person posting… Read more »
@Jeffery Thank you.
Please note: in Louisville “the entire county was integrated via busing.” That was the fundamental mistake leading to Dayton’s downfall. It’s caused the rift, it’s fueled the sprawl, and it’s still affecting us today.
“I think most of you are pussys on the race issue.”
Our new problem, clearly stated by a gay man who is still unable to wed in this state.
We need to change, or we’ll die.
Wow. Great post Jeff, thanks for the candor.
I just don’t see it. A few high school punks and BAM we have a huge race problem?
Some people are racists. I think most people are not. One story in the city paper this year, maybe a few more, of a city of 155K people, country of 580k people. I think racism would be reported more. Heck, the examples given above happened years ago. What racist act have you done lately?
Avoid it? I can’t find it. It must be hiding from me.
If you kick a dog enough times…………
Some people are racists. I think most people are not.
Most people have negative stereotypes, whic colors their actions.
Please note: in Louisville “the entire county was integrated via busing.” That was the fundamental mistake leading to Dayton’s downfall. It’s caused the rift, it’s fueled the sprawl, and it’s still affecting us today.
As in all these things it’s not so simple. White flight is fueling sprawl right now in Louisville, to the counties surrounding the old Jefferson County (todays’ “Louisville Metro”) and, for those who can afford it, flight to private schools (this is more “upper middle class flight” as affluent parents want to improve the life chances of their kids). It took awhile for this to happen, though, for various reasons specific to the Louisville
situation, but was underway by the late 1980s. It was quite noticeable to me in a recent trip to the area , seeing new suburbia in Spencer County and the Mount Washington area of Bullitt County (one a little southern crossroads town).
This would have happened to Montgomery County as well. Development in Greene, northern Warren, and probably the Tipp City/Troy area would have accelerated as whites chose to move to these counties vs Montgomery County.
Most people move because of schools for their kids. And what is so special about Dayton, downtown? I like it but it really is not that exciting. I think we need more people down there but to be honest a lot of people like a little land to throw the ball and run around.
Go to Tipp City – I was there yesterday. People like yards. The little downtown is cute. But most who live out there will say they live there because they want a lawn, good schools and they grew up there or near there. Dayton is not an option for them because Dayton has few homes that sit on decent size lots for decent size lawns and the schools are in bad shape. You scream that is bc of white flight – well, whatever. That ship has sailed.
A typical adult thinks Dayton schools are bad, why deal with it, they did not do it, it happened over several years when they were not even born or they were a kid themselves, that by moving to Dayton they do not have enough power to change it, their kids time in school is actually a pretty small window in their life and you don’t want to bounce around for the sake of saving a community.
Don’t make this too complicated. People want clean lawns, painted houses….. poorer people don’t do the best of jobs of up keep (white or black.) A house is and investment to a certain degree ( :) ) Yes, laugh at it, I know bc of the decline in the market…….. ha ha ha………. But buying a home in a certain area with homes around it that are also up-kept is still a desirable thing to productive adults.
Not only that, but how many homes are actually in Dayton now. Without building new places, what would be the maximum capacity of Dayton? The reason I ask is people say white flight – I say most people can’t find a decent place in Dayton to begin with.
Heck, the examples given above happened years ago.
Right, history is bunk. But with the racial issue we are seeing the outcome of history. This is like a fire or car wreck. The event happened in the past and we may have never witnessed it. Instead what we see is the burned out house or building or the crumpled vehicle and the maimed and scarred humans. And we have to deal with that, instead.
Jeff:
So you are arguing for ‘racial forensics’; what do we do with an analysis like that once it’s done? Once we know how the car wreck happened, how does that help?
@jstults – I guess I could throw the quote “Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it”. But it’s probably not applicable here…lol. Bottom line is we have racism in America and the tendency of many is to say it doesn’t exist.
So you are arguing for ‘racial forensics’; what do we do with an analysis like that once it’s done? Once we know how the car wreck happened, how does that help?
That was my point, that we deal with the consequences, not pretend there are none. An example is this comment:
“…poorer people don’t do the best of jobs of up keep (white or black.)…”
Right, but the issue is deflected by the qualifier “white or black”, making it a “poor” issue not a “race” issue.
It just so happens that a higher percentage of the black community are poor or working poor. Add geographic racial segregation (which is factual, you can map it by census tract) and you concentrate the problem of property deterioration due to upkeep, as well as the host of other social ills associated with poverty.
Now we can expect the real estate people to come on here and protest “we don’t do racial steering”. Maybe. Today the real estate industry doesn’t officially do that, but they did right through the 1960s. And we are experiencing the consequences of that policy…experiencing it today.
Geographic segregation happens, but is not necessarily racist, is it? People live where they live. East Dayton, where I live, has all sorts of people. The west side seems mostly black. They don’t want white people there. Where I live everyone is welcome. Black or white or whoever can basically move where ever they want – so what if they are not welcomed with open arms. Who the hell is?
If I got ride of my tv, computer and newspaper my interaction with “racism” would almost be non-existent. If you look hard enough, dig deep enough you can find whatever you want. Ignore it and it just may go away. Who is to say that would not happen? Most people I know do ignore racist people, and have friends of all colors and nationalities and preferences. I would not know where to find a “racist” person. Do they advertise?
Jeff:
There’s no need for them to; the good ones provide complete demographic and school performance work-ups for the neighbourhoods their clients are considering; you can steer yourself.
The schools in Dayton steer people to the suburbs…. No need for a pamphlet. It is common knowledge now. Like the sun rises everday and Esrati hates the DDN.
@jstults – true.
@Jeff – It’s true that we live with the consequences of yesterday’s gerrymandering, redlining, racial profiling and the like. It seems to me that old lines of segregation are on the way out. I can’t say that Realtors today think that way. Racial divides in neighborhoods is more likely to be masked by income these days. And there are plenty of poor predominantly white neighborhoods out there.
I think a Realtors today would sell what ever they had their hands on to whoever qualifies.
Where is all of this racism? I think it would be easy to see if I believe half of what Jeff wrote. But I don’t see it, so it only exists on a minor level.
“…you can steer yourself…”
This is pretty much how segregation happens today. But it’s not that blacks and whites have the same attitudes about living together.
Based on statitics and survey results provided in American Apartheid (Massey & Denton), blacks prefer to live in more integrated settings, while whites prefer to live among whites. This difference accounts for patterns of ongoing racial segregation, reinforcing racial geographies previously established during past decades of racial steering.
Bottom line is we have racism in America and the tendency of many is to say it doesn’t exist.
I disagree with this in that I think todays racism is more unconcious. I think it has more to do with negative stereotyping and unintentional social exclusion. That hard core “blacks are inferior” or “blacks need to be kept in their place” prejudice is of the past.
And the race issue today has a lot to with issues and social dynamics within the black community, as described in some of the work of William Julius Wilson. This also applies to the differentials in crime rate between blacks and whites.
It ain’t that bad. Keep kicking this dog and it will bite. I say ignore the issue entirely, unless you are see it first hand, like at that basketball game.
We have come a long way. Doomed to repeat? I doubt we will have slavery again.
We have come a long way.
Agreed.
Devil’s advocate time.
Gene: I don’t think the issue is that “they” don’t want white people there. White people don’t want to be there because “they” are there. The riots in the 60s drove Whites out in droves…my grandparents had a place on Audobahn Park until the riot. Then they (along with countless other Appalachian transplants) found their way to Riverside. I’ve seen a good deal more Confederate flags east and northeast than Farrakhan flyers west and northwest.
On the other hand, address the issue of disproportionately high Black crime rates and you’ll largely fix the problem of White racism. I realize there’s a vicious cycle there… you can argue that racism created social inequalities that left Blacks at a disadvantage, and the crime is the consequence, but at the same time, that crime further fuels notions of inequality and desire for separation. Whatever the reasons, the Department of Justice statistics don’t lie. Who wants their neighborhood to turn into DeSoto Bass? Heck, they had to raze Parkside to the ground to fix it.
The other issue: on your video, I see two reasonably well educated White people talking about racism being a problem, and 71 comments from what I assume is a very similar demographic. Are there discussions among Black residents addressing the issue of anti-White racism (which, despite my observation above, certainly exists and I’ve been on the receiving end of it)? If we’re going to honestly discuss race, everyone needs to come to the table together.
Then black people don’t want to move to the suburbs bc white people live there. A logical argument can be made that a person looking for a home should want good services, good schools, a nice yard, and low crime, among other things. The suburbs offer these things more so than the city. But some people like urban living or neighborhoods located in the city limits. To each their own. I am white and like Dayton. I assume a lot of black people like Dayton bc they live there. The ones who do not like Dayton move. Are people forced to live where they live? No.
I would like to thank Gene, Jeff, Will, and jstults for doing all of the heavy lifting on this issue. I do believe we need to have a racial forensics of this issue because I do not think we can respond successfully to the issue without discussing the roots of the problem. I find these discussions great as the views expressed here are representative of the wider world. I will pull out some nuggets that define the data points I utilize in my analysis. Gene – My favorite I just don’t see it. A few high school punks and BAM we have a huge race problem? Where is all of this racism? I think it would be easy to see if I believe half of what Jeff wrote. But I don’t see it, so it only exists on a minor level. I am sorry but anyone that studies the data and perceptions of people should be able to recognize the historic remnants of Racism. Jeff has the data and the experience to compare the data and the results. If you cannot see that people are still making incorrect assumptions and tax allocations based on the tenets of Racism then there is really no reason to discuss it any further, which is why I am posting now. So you are arguing for ‘racial forensics’; what do we do with an analysis like that once it’s done? Once we know how the car wreck happened, how does that help? Yes I think racial forensics would help but it is not any easy science or discussion because the car has been moving(wrecking) while we are tinkering with the design. I really believe that knowing how the car was wrecked helps design a “better car”. The “problem” has been that people usually are forced/coerced into a solution that exacerbates the problem (Great Society, Busing, Minority Set Asides). Read the first comment on this topic by Anne for the historical ramifications of race and race relations and I think there is sufficient data that proves this type of thinking is one of reasons that Oakwood sectioned itself… Read more »
Greg:
Anne:
Both of these comments highlight how whites of higher social standing have historically chosen to deal with the problem of poor blacks (and to a lesser extent the hillbilllies), a sort of noblesse oblige that is a hold-over from the paternalism of plantation owners in the deep south, and the progressive activism of the early industrialists. I don’t think there’s much promise for the future in following those footsteps. I’m more of the “teach a man to fish” persuasion.
Greg:
As was posted over in the <a href=”http://esrati.com/?p=3859&cpage=1#comments”>education thread</a>, the troubled urban schools already get significantly more money per student then the ones out in the suburbs and they still under-perform. Are you saying that giving more money to predominantly black inner-city schools is Racist? Playing more redistribution games with tax dollars is not a fix (it’s already being done to little effect). The link I posted in that thread was a poverty model that the federal government uses to decide how much subsidy to give to poorer schools, are you really arguing that we’re allocating taxes based on the tenets of Racism? The flow of public funds wouldn’t seem to support that assertion (I’m open to being corrected, but I’m a number cruncher, so show me the data).
Here’s that link again:
http://www.census.gov//did/www/saipe/
Oliver was a member of DDC, from what I know. Hosted a party there, from what I know. Did other members get upset? I am sure some did. But that is often my point – those who get upset, those who are racists have lost most of their power. They could not do shit. Nor should they have the power to do shit. Racism exists, I get that. But studying the past is not helping with this Fairmont issue. We are not going back to slavery. We have a lot of successful black people in this country. Some are still held back, but again my point is ignore the losers who promote racism, if you can find them. Don’t do business with them, don’t talk to them. Any house or apartment can go section 8. Oakwood has some, do you want more? If so, why? BC the only advantage in living in Oakwood are the schools, so unless you have kids it is not worth it. And if someone in section 8 housing moved to Oakwood without kids they would be wasting this resource. That in itself is segregation. But the reality is if you want more black students there then I suggest black families move there. Is someone stopping them? People say they would not welcome black people with open arms. I am not sure anyone anywhere is welcomed with open arms. You have to fit in to a community, not the other way around. If people have a problem with black people living next to them well then they will move (those with the problem.) I looked at a house on Harvard the other week. Would I be welcomed with open arms? Not sure. Not sure who even lives there. I did not go to every house to see the make up of the block. I am guessing black and white, but I really don’t know. I just think if racism was a HUGE problem we would see more of it. Yes it disguises itself, but so many young people have gotten beyond it. Every generation seems a bit… Read more »
The link I posted in that thread was a poverty model that the federal government uses to decide how much subsidy to give to poorer schools, are you really arguing that we’re allocating taxes based on the tenets of Racism? The flow of public funds wouldn’t seem to support that assertion (I’m open to being corrected, but I’m a number cruncher, so show me the data). Problem is that I need the data too. But anecdotally look at the flow of private and public money and I think you will see a push away from the West side and the flow of tax dollars on the whole to the South, East and with the rise of Clayton, North West. Ohh we will trumpet 6 million for the Wright Dunbar District, but that money pails in comparison to the Greene Investment or the Austin Road Investment. Then look at housing prices in the Dayton Area through time and I think you will find that household wealth increased disproportionately in the South, East and Northwest. I am not sure that just looking at school data tells the story. Are there discussions among Black residents addressing the issue of anti-White racism (which, despite my observation above, certainly exists and I’ve been on the receiving end of it)? If we’re going to honestly discuss race, everyone needs to come to the table together. Agreed Pseudonymous and thanks for the input and I agree that the African American Community has to join the conversation. I think that the African American Community has culpability in some of the issues, but Whites still have and have had the power, so we have the most responsibility. For example, here is a comment by Molly Darcy on Gary’s campaign that says something about the involvement of the African American Community in the affairs of the City. Gary—the only reason you won is because no one knew who the hell you were! You actually won a campaign because no one west thought there was an actual race for Mayor so they didn’t show up to vote. It has nothing to do with… Read more »
On the other hand, address the issue of disproportionately high Black crime rates and you’ll largely fix the problem of White racism. I realize there’s a vicious cycle there… you can argue that racism created social inequalities that left Blacks at a disadvantage, and the crime is the consequence, but at the same time, that crime further fuels notions of inequality and desire for separation.
Yes, this is how I see it too. Every time you see the black perps mugshot in the paper the negative stereotype of black criminality is reinforced. A stereoype that actually has some basis in fact based on the crime stats. There is a selfish way of looking at this is that says this higher black crime rate makes Dayton “look bad” (since the city is around 40% black +/-, the crime rates will reflect this racial differential), but it’s also an issue within the Black community as they are more often than not the victims of this higher crime rate, not so much the whites.
If all crime would stop (or be greatly reduced) then we would not see any mug shots (or just a few, here and there.) Crime is still against the law, right? :) Percentage of crime sifted through and then placed on a race is sort of….. stupid? Men are roughly 50% of the population but commit way more than 50% of the crime, no? Crime is mostly about people making bad decisions, obviously. Why does one “group” commit more crime than another, based on statistics? Income is the number one reason. Rich people commit crime, but just not at the same rate (rich meaning “not poor” – ie middle class as well.) Also crime is more accepted in Urban areas, meaning smaller crimes (drugs, small theft, a punch in the face here or there) often is not even looked upon as crime among Urban folk. Suburbanites have tighter interpretations of crime, and point out almost every little last thing that is a crime – and they should – bc a “crime” is still “breaking the law.” My cop buddies say that with reduced budgets they often do not investigate small stuff (which a lot of people say has happened from the beginning of time, but that is not true), falls under the “it’s a part of life” category. Do we need more cops? Sure. Sounds like a good idea, at first. But if we have 5 times the cops we feel like we live in a military zone. I suggest to people that they should stop committing the crimes, even if they don’t feel it should be a crime in the first place (ie drugs.) Obviously this is easy to talk about, and no real results can be truly known. Data only tells us so much. Why are some areas of similar size and racial make up have less crime? Is it religion? Schools? Or do people collectively, rich and poor and middle class, white and black and other, just don’t put up with the shit. Who knows? Certainly not me. But if poor people want to get out from… Read more »
If you want to break the cycle, people should stop having kids until they can afford them, both financially and emotionally. That is not that hard, is it?
Apparently, it’s incredibly difficult. And one thing that’s not working to help people stop having kids until they’re ready for them is abstinence only sex ed.
True DL.
But what I can’t figure out is kids that come from more money tend to have less kids at an early age. Is it bc of rubbers? Maybe. Or maybe, just maybe, this kind of behavior and the results of this behavior are frowned upon? Some kids are having kids bc their friends did, they get government help, and it is a part of their culture. Break that.
They have rubbers. But these young men aren’t “men” if they use them. Poor people just make poor decisions for what ever reason.
Interesting article from this fall about teen pregnancy rates by state:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/
The Northeast has the lowest rates of teen pregnancy. Perhaps Godless liberalism is good for something.
Thanks for the link David as I grew up in a religious environment, when Ohio was not lead by the Taliban of the Religious right. Face it God can create heaven in heaven and man should manage the desires of the flesh in the most tolerant and honest way possible.
Seen in all cultures and all religions on the earth’s four corners, the flagellants held influence on culture and opinion. Who were these folks, you ask? The flagellants were the roving band of holy men and seers who distinguished themselves and displayed their zeal by wielding whips and beating ones self on the back. And that was 24-7-365. Sure, it was a messy and bloody affair, but during the Dark Ages, it was the equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters making their annual Nutter Center visit; entertaining, amusing and edifying. The Mad Monk Rasputin belonged to such a cult before helping usher in the 80 year dark veil known as Communism, and such a exhibition is practiced in Shia Islam to this day. But then, the age of technology kicked in and simple pleasures such as watching some zealot beat himself bloody just couldn’t compete with a boffo performance of La Miz at the Schuster Center. Yet there seems to be many who just can’t resist the primal temptation of picking up a can of nine tails and putting a smackdown on themselves or the dude in front of them. And since the last cat o’ nine tails factory closed down around 1936, today we pick the whip known as the accusation of racist. But when this particular whip is applied, it is not to confirm faith, but to bully, intimidate or silence. And what crime must one commit to feel the lash of this flagellant? Just about anything. El Bandito de Helios has been accused of the being a racist for such heinous acts as refusing to turn over spare change in the Oregon District, for saying nowayjose to a neighbor wanting to borrow the BanditoMobile (which will do anything the Batmobile can do but start), and for identifying the 15 year old motorist who hit me head on while speeding down a one way street the wrong way. But the label of racist has been flung at the Old Bandito the most when he is engaged in one particular activity; winning an argument. For as we have witnessed countless time, when one… Read more »
Yes, Bandito, the race card, or just flat out calling someone a racist, is way way way over done. Sometimes a man (or woman) stands up for himself, says no, avoids contact, makes decisions, offers opinions, and often this is met with “you are a racist.” A liberal line often used when one can not see further than one’s own hand.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with race. But a liberal will tell you otherwise. The only time I think of race is when we talk about it or I see it over blown on the NEWS. Otherwise, I see a man, a woman, a kid…… so then I am sexist. Or I age discriminate. One can never win, but I move forward and ignore the liberal observations. After all, these observations are made with shades on.
Hmm, When the banana was put in place, was there more Racism? Was this planned influenced by Racism and does a review of the plans require discussion. Jeffery always presented the data.
History has impacts so we can either put our heads in the sand and paint some other excuse or deal with it. Not dealing with the true cause of problems is a sign of stupidity, no matter how well written the parable. God you are funny Icey, but being funny and holding the first amendment is one thing, reviewing the data and robbing life liberty and the pursuit of happiness from one group to enhance another SHOULD not be the American Ideal. Contrary to all of the Imperialist Actions of this American Empire.
So I-675 was racist….. Guantanamo Bay tortures people….. Damn concrete, steel, asphalt. Evil!!!
robbing life liberty and the pursuit of happiness from one group to enhance another SHOULD not be the American Ideal. Contrary to all of the Imperialist Actions of this American Empire
Wow………you really said that Greg? Taxes do that. Government is the biggest proponent of those removals. They are the champs when it comes to squelching freedom. Government is the root of most problems……….so does that mean that big government loving individuals are perpetually stupid?
Ice bandit…….. You have to listen to this link on the 1st amendment, while it is hysterical, I think it is also correct. :
http://mises.org/media/3516
Of course taxes rob from one group to give to another, and liberals love that. Producers of wealth are taxed and said taxes go to (among other areas) non-producers of wealth. Then we have non-producers of wealth receiving wealth for doing nothing. The True American Way.
We should have a tax on every American for National Defense, other necessary federal and state programs, and local issues. But then we would have the poor rob the rich at gun point to pay their fair share.
Robert Vigh. A thousand thanks for the link. I’ve long been a fan of the Mises Institute, but this particular narrative had somehow eluded me. I once shouted “theatre” in a crowded fire………..
You are most welcome. Walter Block defends the undefendable and has several of those audio files which are quite entertaining and satirically to the point.