Comments on: It’s hard to compete with the Government

By: Caffe Anticoli come back?

Caffe Anticoli come back? — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:16:02 +0000

[...] two open restaurant locations on E. Fifth Street- the former Blue Moon/John Henry’s and the former Chin’s in the Parking Garage. Other options include the former Grayhound station location or the Gem City Records space. Fifth [...]

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By: Follow up: or why corporate welfare by government has to stop.

Follow up: or why corporate welfare by government has to stop. — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:17:24 +0000

[...] via It’s hard to compete with the Government. [...]

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:43:10 +0000

@valerie-

Thanks for the reminder on this-, I’ll bring it up soon. I have a feeling we just did another Wayne Wyoming Kroger deal- with a one sided contract- and no real upside for the taxpayers.

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By: Valerie

Valerie — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:47:09 +0000

….and, two weeks before the end of August projected opening, there have been no visible signs of construction or any other activity at the building, not even a “Coming Soon” sign.

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By: German guy

German guy — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 05:45:08 +0000

Don’t forget the Liederkranz-Turner next to Stivers. They do German-themed events just about every weekend. Great food and cheap beir.

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:59:25 +0000

German restaurants: the Amber Rose on Valley is as close to German as it gets around here, although L’auberge serves an amazing wiener schnitzel at lunch. Charlies Imports on Troy street has a selection of German groceries in the back.

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:59:23 +0000

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By: Jeff

Jeff — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:11:54 +0000

^
Sounds like someone visited the Hofbrauhaus in Newport. But yeah, why aren’t there any German restaurants in Dayton? You have to go to Cincinnati for German food.

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By: Gene

Gene — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:33:41 +0000

I know what would be a big hit in this town……

Big German Beer Hall wit Food. And the music…… and real biergarten, not a parking lot.

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By: Liz

Liz — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:25:22 +0000

I heard the city asked the tenant to consider some other cuisine for the restaurant, but he insisted on Asian. Not that this addresses your concerns; just thought it worth mentioning that they apparently at least had the presence of mind to realize they were placing two similarly-themed restaurants 2 minutes walking distance apart.

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:56:05 +0000

@Gene
Clay Dixon wasn’t going to sign off on the deal. They needed his support- he said it was the concession that moved him over (remember, he was a DPS employee at the time).
In reality, the whole deal was tilted toward Mandalay. However, they do put on a show worth for our dimes- I mean dollars.

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By: Gene

Gene — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 03:15:14 +0000

Did MANDALAY say it, or was it Clay or one of the faces in the crowd that sorta got a rumor started…….. you know what I mean, a girl or guy sitting in the room saying,” this will be great for Dayton. And the stadium can employ DPS students to run the concessions……”

Little rumors and thoughts are expressed by people all the time…. I just can not believe that a business would make such a stupid comment/promise………. Then again, we have millions of people who worship a child molester, so how much do I really know? (nada is the answer.)

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By: Gene

Gene — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 03:09:46 +0000

If you are right (and I believe you), it was BS from Mandalay then….. sorry to call you out on it, but you have to admit that any business making such promises regarding who they would hire (ie DPS students) is almost inconceivable. What business would publicly say that? You would have shit for brains if that was your PR with the community………

I did not intent to say you lied (yes, it came off that way) but I am just in absolute jaw dropping ” how stupid a company could be” for making that comment/statement/promise. Who works like that?

Again, sorry……… That is all I need to know about Mandalay. And, yes, the charity angle is always bs. They do it all over the USA, and it seems to be a big “scam.”

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:24:35 +0000

@Gene- it was announced as the deal cincher by then Mayor Richard Clay Dixon, in chambers at a commission meeting. I was there. If the DDN site was able to be searched- or the commission records were online in a machine readable, ADA compliant format- I’d be able to pull it up.
When I have more time, I still plan to post about the practice of letting “Charities” slave for proceeds from concessions- it is a total scam.

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By: Gene

Gene — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:17:42 +0000

Where, in writing, did Mandalay say they would employ DPS students? Why DPS kids….. why not anyone who is qualified for the job?

Honestly, I think that is BS type on your part DE. It was never said by Mandalay, but may have been said by the Dayton “think-they-know-it-all” citizens who think it is ok to make shit up.

What if a Centreville or Oakwood or Beavercreek kid wanted to work there? Lord knows they would not have half the excuses of the DPS kid.

Complete and Total BS. And, if it is true, then shame of Mandalay for using words that were specific to DPS students. Either way, BS statement and/or impossible and inconceivable to guarantee work to a kid by virtue of where they attend school. Unreal.

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:02:23 +0000

@Civil-
I totally agree that if the voters were asked to approve gaming/casinos/gambling- for urban areas- or in a plan where the licenses are sold to the highest bidder- instead of being awarded to racetrack owners, a specific developer- etc. we’d have gaming in Ohio.
And yes, property taxes are a county thing- but, to the property owner- it doesn’t matter who they are paying- it’s still a tax. And if I got to have a say- we’d only have one government- UniGov/regional government- so the issue is moot.
As to the promises of $250K investment- I also remember Mandalay entertainment promising to employ DPS students at the concession stands- etc.- only to see those jobs handed over to “charity” to avoid having to deal with workers comp, payroll, taxes etc. We’ve also seen companies like GM demand tax breaks for “clear coat paint lines” only to see the plant leave town anyway- in the meantime, executives took our tax dollars and pocketed them with their exorbitant salaries.
The promise of performance means nothing- if there are no penalties. $2 a square foot rent is handing our tax dollars over to a private individual- in fact, I’d almost guarantee that if worked out- the cart vendors on Courthouse Square are charged more than that per square foot.
It’s anti- business to subsidize one, while making the others suffer.
The city doesn’t have to make improvements to the space- the tenant does. I just read that “Smashburger” which is going in across from the Dayton Mall put $600k into their space- now, how would you feel if you were them- and then had the city give a break to Fuddruckers to open next door? Do you get it yet?

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By: Civil Servants are People, Too

Civil Servants are People, Too — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:22:38 +0000

“You see, the City looks at a full building and will raise their rent- taxes, on you.”

If you mean property tax, the assessed values are controlled by the County. If you mean local income tax, that rate is applied to everyone regardless of quality or occupancy of their building. So I don’t really understand this comment.

On the unrelated topic of casinos,which is another red herring, I actually would be interested in seeing a downtown casino. The casino investors would probably do a lot better in the polls if they allowed cities to compete for their casinos, instead of pre-determining the locations. But I digress.

The escrow idea is intriguing except that means another $250k “subsidy” if the City has to make the improvements anyway – so I don’t quite understand the benefit of that possibility yet. I would be interested in exploring that concept.

The notion that “people lie” seems somewhat cynical and does not seem to be a good basis for public policy from a politician. However, I completely agree that any business receiving an incentive should be absolutely held accountable for their promises. I imagine the problem comes when the company goes under, and there is nothing left to collect.

An interesting discussion, regardless. Thanks to you.

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By: Gene

Gene — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:04:52 +0000

Liberals love to subsidize poor unproductive people yet hate to help people who start businesses and employ people.

It is like liberals are jealous or upset with the fact someone may actually be successful in business. Liberals are a GD MF Joke when it comes to business affairs.

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By: David Esrati

David Esrati — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:44:11 +0000

So Civl-
by the same standard- Brothels bring business to NV, as do casinos? Why not put them right next to the convention center? I’m pretty sure both would pay well above market rates?
Hmmmm- that would bother you, wouldn’t it.
Your argument sounds great, until you realize that just because the building is “paid for” that you can go low on rent- doesn’t work for private enterprise. You see, the City looks at a full building and will raise their rent- taxes, on you.
Unfortunately, your arguments about putting in $250K and also employment- have been done- over and over- and guess what, people lie. BGH got $125K grant for “equipment” and promised jobs- but now the moneys gone, they are smaller than before and the taxpayers, well, it’s civil servants like you, who make excuses to us.
If this is really the case- put the $250k in escrow- we pay for the “improvements” and have him provide a security bond guaranteeing payroll- or the rent goes up.
The taxpayers/government shouldn’t be in the real estate business. Nor, should they be venture capitalists, or in “economic development”- they should be in the service to all business.
Police, fire, water, parks and rec- and I also believe in the gas and electricity business- screw the privatization of “public utilities” it hasn’t worked that well.
We’re going to disagree here- but, when you have to work in the real world, I hope you don’t ever have to compete with government, which never thinks about the consequences of their actions, since ultimately, they believe they will always have a job, revenue, and a license to do anything they want, no matter what the consequences are.

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By: Civil Servants are People, Too

Civil Servants are People, Too — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 05:23:48 +0000

If the building is paid for and the rent covers the City’s cost of maintenance, it’s not really a subsidy at all. Similarly, if I own a rental property with no mortgage, I can rent it out for whatever rate I wish and attract tenants with a lower cost of living. I am not obligated to charge a “market” rate. So the subsidy argument is a red herring.

From a business perspective (if that is our point of view), when a long vacant space is filled with a paying tenant, that’s a good start. When the tenant puts $250k into the space, that’s a bonus. When that rental income exceeds cost, that’s good business.

Often, such as with Kettering Tower, the landlord pays too much for a building and has to charge high rent just to cover the mortgage. If they can’t pay the debt service, the result is foreclosure. That’s bad business.

So therefore, if we are judging the City based on a “business decision” then the benchmark should be a “profit” to the taxpayers. If the rent is paid and costs are covered, then profit will be achieved by the landlord. Jobs are created as well. The City and the taxpayers win. Good business.

Alternatively, we can consider that their occupancy may add further value by attracting more people to the Convention Center and the other nightlife destinations in the Oregon District. The things that keep people downtown today will bring them back for more tomorrow, and the rising tide will lift all boats – as the saying goes. This would seem to be the essence of so-called “economic development”.

And so, the laws of supply and demand will actually create increasing demand for the delicious cuisine of Thai9. (My Econ101 teacher told me so many years ago, thank you.)
Generally, this is why investment is a good thing for cities. The Greene would not be as attractive with half as many tenants, and neither would downtown. We need more investment downtown. If the City made that happen, that’s good business too. The alternative is protectionism which actually stifles job growth. (Econ102)

Besides, a little competition is good in a free market. If the metaphorical referee needs glasses, do you quit the game or try a little harder?

PS. If you can drop the tax rate and still balance the budget while providing improved services, you will make a lot of people very happy! I will look forward to that day. Please tell us how it could be done.

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