The news is sometimes in the details that the Dayton Daily News leaves out. If you read their story, it sounds like the city and county have “won” some new business- from Georgia (the evil people who “stole” NCR from us) for the paltry investment of $125K.
Read and Rejoice!
In September 2009, commissioners initially approved a recommendation for a $125,000 grant to the company, a producer of molded plastic parts. The Montgomery County ED/GE (Economic Development/Government Equity) advisory committee recommended the grant.
The ED/GE process has two parts: First, the county considers the recommendations of the ED/GE advisory committee and then the county enters into a contract with local jurisdictions — in this case, the city of Dayton — as part of the allocation. The expansion will be in Dayton.
Composite Technologies plans to move and expand its mixing and molding division from Georgia to 943 Woodley Road, Dayton, according to its ED/GE application.
Greg Hunter did his dilligent digging and finds out that this is just another of Raj Soin’s businesses. That’s right, the man who owns Mike Turner, now gets another $125K of your money. This is the guy who owns a mansion and doesn’t want to pay his taxes:
The Ohio Supreme Court has affirmed Greene County’s 2003 appraisal of Raj and Indu Soin’s Beavercreek home at $3.7 million.
The Soins appealed to the court, claiming the home at 2489 Kemp Road was worth less than half as much — $1.4 million.
The Soins have battled county officials over property taxes since building the 25,879 square-foot, 16-room home, completed in 2002. The home has six bedrooms, 91/2 bathrooms and a swimming pool and sits on 126 acres — 37 of which were purchased in 2004 for $662,500, according to county records.
The Soins also are appealing the $5.3 million value the county set for 2005 in Greene County Common Pleas Court, claiming the home is worth $2.75 million. Wright State University’s School of Business is named for Raj Soin, founder of Dayton-based MTC Technologies.
If you want to look at who owns the Woodley Road property: Court Reporter on transaction
Read about the City bragging about their involvement: Dayton Department of Development PDF PR
See who owns Sansara Properties LLC: State of Ohio articles of Incorporation listing Raj Soin’s son, Vishal Soin as the agent: http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=200906202950
It’s pretty obvious that $125K makes no difference at all in the scale of this deal- so how do they come up with this number? It’s the exact same amount that they gave to BGHstudios several years back (word on the street is that there aren’t many people working there right now).
However, as your trash bill goes up, your police officers get overworked, and firefighters get cut- somehow we have the ability to give $125K to a very rich man. It’s criminal.
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{ 44 comments… read them below or add one }
They finally took down the Qbase sign in Beavercreek.
Brilliant or Bozo?
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Let’s think of this another way….
Think: blackmail. Think: ultimatums.
Think: if you dont’ pay up, I will move out.
The City can’t afford NOT to bend over.
Until the law changes at the State and Federal level, this is how the game will be played.
Cold, hard math. This is a classic logic scenario.
Jobs creates income tax.
Soin has jobs. City wants income.
Soin threatens to take away jobs.
City wants to keep jobs.
Keeping jobs will cost the city money.
Therefore, City will pay money to keep the jobs.
That is the dark side of development.
The good side is the small business that actually needs the money.
I’m not saying it’s right – that’s just how it is today.
Like the song about love and marriage, we can’t have one without the other.
Brilliant or Bozo?
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David, do you or Greg have any kind of list compiled of how much exactly has been given out to all the different companies within the City through these type of “development grants” and such? I’ve recently been saving all the “BizBite” newsletters from the City that detail the amounts, but I’m curious about how much follow up is given after the fact. Such as BGH… And the phantom restaurant in the Chin’s space that never seems to show up… stuff like that.
I’m not necessarily 110% against the City giving out money in the name of economic development (like you seem to be…), but I certainly expect nothing short of exactly what that business promised if they take the money. I think it’s time to direct the media to these hundreds of thousands of dollars that are given out with no follow up. If the City gives money, the company damn well better deliver. And that is obviously not always the case. Not even close.
Just wondered if you had any more specific info compiled… ?
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@CSAPT- Yep- the law needs to be changed at the Federal level. It was one of the main planks of my platform when I ran for Congress. Jane Mitakides didn’t have any platform- but, was the “opponent” to Turner. Such is life. Yep- there is a dilemma- but no one is willing to take a stand.
@Brad- I’ve tried to keep track of them here- but, know I’ve missed a lot. No, we don’t have a list. Yes, we should start compiling one. It amounts to millions in grants- and untold amounts of thrown away potential tax revenue. It tilts the playing field- making it harder for the open market to work.
Do I feel vindicated when a company like Qbase goes down- no. Do I want them to succeed yes- but- do I think government investment helps- hell no.
We’ll keep digging on this stuff- eventually, we’ll get enough evidence that the people will say enough’s enough. Till then, bend over.
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David, Would you be supportive this idea. Instead of giving ED/GE grants directly to businesses, the money could go to create or enhance incubators and business resource centers that would be durable and could help everyone.
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@Steve. I’m in Savannah GA right now. Looking around- I see well maintained parks, a system of maps to help guide people around the city, well maintained streets and sidewalks. Lots of small businesses in small mixed used walkable neighborhoods- and guess what- they didn’t tear down all the old to do “urban renewal.”
Nope- the way you get businesses to invest and thrive is to make a good place to live- which is what tax dollars are for. There should be absolutely ZERO tax dollars tilting the landscape.
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David:
I wonder how well they do at making sure the taxes for the projects were actually paid by people who will benefit from the work.
Sweet deal for Beavercreek, if you live there, everyone else’s taxes pay for your stuff.
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Yes I have heard that MTC/BAE was known as the “Indian Mafia” at WPAFB.
I wonder about this job creator as MOST of the jobs “created” by soin and his companies were really “tax dollar jobs” ie jobs that used to be done by the civilian work force but were outsourced to private corporations. It would be interesting to watch what work CTC will actually get.
I would also contend that for all the years working with some of the “best and the brightest” at WPAFB - Rajesh K. Soin an IIT grad has been nothing more than a “body shop” manager, who came along at the right time to take advantage of outsourcing as well as minority status. It seems to me that all that talk of innovation coming out of WPAFB and the contracts that his company has held, there has been a total lack of “revolutionary” companies or Patents emanating from this supposed leader in high technology. After all CTC makes………pallets. Nice. Innovative. Astounding really with all those years being exposed to the best and the brightest.
It is nice that our Federal Government out sourced jobs to a minority organization that may have resulted in American Jobs going overseas. How is that working out for us? Not so well as Teddy S. is begging for them back. Nice Job America!
Smackdown!. What do you think?
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Greg:
Exactly, this is the same fallacy that the Qbase-defenders fall in to. The money to pay for those bodies is already in the Federal budget (which is a multi-year process). That money will be spent, because if not, that means there is a civil servant who is not making his obligations and expenditures numbers and he won’t be competitive for that next promotion. There is no entrepreneurial magic here, there’s just little piglets feeding at Uncle Sugar’s trough. None of the piglets are beautiful and unique snowflakes, any is as good (or bad) as another.
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Hmm I wonder. I have always had a problem with the Minority Set Aside program as Naturalized Citizens may not spend all those Tax Dollars in America. How about a hospital in India named after his Father. His story seems to indicate the Life of Riley for India, not Slumdog Millionaire
A regular Abraham Lincoln
IIRC – The story was Raj was broke and his suitcase was stolen sure doesn’t jibe with where he started and where he ended up. There is some classic Freudian lines in this background.
Ha except a Minority Set Aside Program that WPAFB fully funded, hmm I do not remember any Indian Race Riots in Dayton. Do You?
Smackdown!. What do you think?
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Wow You really cannot make up the irony. Here is an article about the ribbon cutting by an NRI.
Wonder how those guys would vote on Health Care in America?
Smackdown!. What do you think?
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Savannah does economic development, too:
http://www.seda.org/savannah/64/tax-incentives.html
They also have a thriving tourism industry and access to the sea, instead of a declining industrial base and a stagnant population growth rate.
Great city either way!
Brilliant or Bozo?
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It takes awhile but I finally figured out where the Georgia Jobs came from, not that I think that there will be any jobs as Raj did not seem to have the magic touch with plastics recycling in Georgia.
Smackdown!. What do you think?
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I like your site Mr. Esrati, but do not support your or Greg’s comments about Indian people or minority status.
In light of all the controversey about the Tea Party’s comments about ethnic groups, I am not sure it is a good idea to post stuff which may offend and entire class of people like Indian people. Please be careful.
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@Robert (and that name is sort of taken already on this site- so you may want to add something to it)
I’ll have to rewatch the video- I can’t be held responsible for Greg’s comments- but, I do have a problem with multi-millionaires working the system to be supported by working class taxpayers- Indian or not. Mr. Soin doesn’t need our tax support anymore – he’s “made it.”
Poorly-rated. Bozo:
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We should only keep dumping money onto people who don’t make it? Seems to be working well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI
If only intelligent people said something earlier.
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David,
Thank you for the prompt reply. Quite impressive and I am happy that you responded to me. Smart to distance yourself from Greg’s comments.
If you read the posts you have here, referring to people on base as an “indian mafia” sarcastic comments about “indian race riots in Dayton” and attacks to “minority set asides” (not only effects indians but blacks, hispanics ect) and negative comments directed to “naturalized citizens” (Need I remind you the Esrati’s and Hunter’s come from a long line of naturalized citizens too.) spending money in their birth country are in poor taste, and may be overstepping a line.
I know you guys are trying to make us all “think” about issues in Dayton. This is why I like the site. At the sametime, I must say I completely support the decision to spend 125K on this initiative. It shows the city is trying.
If we take your last comment about about “not giving money to people/entities who made it” what is your alternative? Does this mean you support giving tax credits to inexperienced people who have not made it, failed in the past, or have no track record on how to use this money? Or do you support not giving tax credits at all to anyone or entity that is a success to build business in Dayton? I think the city tried that with DHL and NCR…… where are they now?
Problem is, if Dayton doesn’t not step up and become more business friendly, offer tax incentives ect, neighboring communities will and I think that smart businessmen will leave whether they have “made it or not” and go to places that are more business friendly.
I applaud the city’s move to try to bring jobs here. 125k to someone with a proven track record is a great idea.
I just read a report that the trillion dollar stimulus package that was supposed to bring in new jobs, has not only seen a rise in unemployement but is now costing over $400,000 per 1 job created.
I am just trying to stimulate thoughts and discussion.
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@Robert I’m against all government handouts to private corporations. It tilts the playing field and opens up all kinds of opportunities for graft and corruption.
Spend your own money if you are in business. Spend our money on us if you are in government. Don’t mix the two.
As to Greg- he says what he says. I’m not his keeper.
If there wasn’t a casino for tax abatements, incentives, tax breaks, relocation fees- from government anywhere in this country- we could compete on things like quality of life- cost of living- availability of natural resources and social capital- much better odds for Dayton.
Poorly-rated. Bozo:
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DE – you should be against all government handouts. Why just for private corporations? You are a Pick and Choose liberal. You want people to get rid of their cars, but you want to keep your car. Don’t give money to private corporations, but certainly you taking advantage of it as single person is just fine, or Johnny Nowork who lives down the street, or Lonnie Badchoices and her 5 kids.
Well-loved. Brilliant:
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“As to Greg- he says what he says. I’m not his keeper.”
If this were true, why did you post that youtube video where you appalud him for all his “research” and sit next to him and support his views.
It is strange to me that you would do post this youtube video where you agree and support greg and then when someone exposes you all as having a racist agenda you run and hide.
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How is it racist to point out that minority set-asides are unfair? They are just another way for government to distort the market (as are small biz set asides and vets set asides and coffee flavored ice-cream set asides and…). Seriously, in their present incarnation they are indefensible (if you were going to argue about historical discrimination, then re-listen to what Greg said and his point may begin to make sense).
There may be pragmatic reasons for the government to want to encourage small businesses in its supplier base (more innovation and risk taking), but arguing that there is a defensible reason for government to encourage business owners with certain amounts of melanin in their skin makes you the racist. I’d be happy if you’d take your racist comments somewhere else; the DDN site doesn’t seem to mind that stuff.
Brad and Robert, you guys (if you are in fact two different people) are clearly not disinterested. Here’s a rhetorical question (rhetorical because I don’t expect a meaningful answer from either of you, since you aren’t willing to own your comments), how much of your paycheck depends on the government’s minority set-aside programs?
Another funny thing I heard at the updayton entrepreneur panel discussion, apparently everyone there qualified in some way for some program as a disadvantaged business owner…
Smackdown!. What do you think?
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If it is truely about “minority set asides” than so be it, that is what you should talk about. If you are not for minority set asides, that is fine. I guess you want all the “tax dollar jobs” to go only to white people.
Greg and David made these sarcastic comments about indian race riots, indian mafia, and basically attacked a guy for honoring his father. I do not know the guy (Soin) I do not work for him nor do I work in Government.
If these comments were not so off color, why did David so quickly distance himself. He distanced himself because he knows they were wrong to post.
Jstults, are you white?
I am black, just you know…
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Greg and David brought up the race issue here. They started this whole thread and they were the ones who specifically and over several times threw around the skin color over and over again. Had that not been written, I would not have even posted here.
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Jstults-
I see your point about minority set asides. While I do not necessarility agree, I think it is certain a fair and valid criticism of the system.
I am not arguing that here.
I am made at the fact that most of the posts seem to be personal attacks against a someone and that race played a role here. I just watched the youtube video and the guy on the left specifically said he did not like the person in question. Then followed by all the posts which crossed the line of healthy debate about policy and was more about attacking an individual because he was nonwhite. That is the problem I had.
Sorry to offend, but it certainly makes for good discussion.
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@Brad – I’m against corporate welfare. Set-asides aren’t exactly the same thing- since there is a delivery of services/goods. However, I’m still clueless why Asian Indians are getting set asides- why not Japanese (after all- we locked them up in WWII).
Greg tends to attack personally- and while I have a problem with Mr. Soin not paying taxes- yet, taking tax breaks, and his buying of Congressman Turner- I don’t know him.
I’m a SDVOB and a HUBzone certified business- I’ve yet to “Crack the code” to make them work for me- but I understand the reasons for them- the 8a program is an odd one- yet supersedes almost every other set-aside class.
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Why is it ok for you (using your own words) to ‘ “Crack the code” to make them work for me- ‘ but not ok for someone else (like a nonwhite person).
You cannot fault a guy for “cracking the code” and making money.
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@Brad- because multi-millionaires shouldn’t be getting subsidies from minimum wage workers.
Poorly-rated. Bozo:
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Point well taken David. That is certainly a strong defendable position.
At the sametime, if the subsidies are out there and available, you cannot fault a guy for trying to “crack the code”
As I said I am black. In my “culture” we have a saying “don’t hate the player hate the game”.
translation in this situation: instead of directing your attacks to the individual who takes advantage of the tax credits you should attack the system that is giving them out. If you were a multimillionaire smart businessman and someone offered you tax credits, as a smart businessman you would take them. It does not mean you are a bad person. It is just smart business.
Bottomline is: don’t hate da playa hate da game
Soin is guilty only of being a smart businessman.
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David E.,
Neither should you be getting subsidies from minimum wage workers. Lets face it, no business owner should be subsidized by minimum wage workers. Unless by subsidized you mean, that you employ minimum wage workers.
And, as a small business owner who is not qualified as an 8a, I can tell you that it hurts my business significantly that I am not a veteran and was born the “wrong” color and nationality. Why does the government have any role in determining the advantages that people of certain colors need given vs people of other colors?
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I agree. If there were no tax subsidies for anyone at anytime- it would be a much more fair system.
Too bad it is not the case. Since the subsidies are out there people will use them.
I do not know what 8a is.
Well-loved. Brilliant:
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@Brad- (and again- that name is sort of taken- so you really should say- Brad- not the firefighter or something like that)-
Sadly- there isn’t a great description of the 8a program- try this: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DTI/is_n2_v25/ai_19238151/
Poorly-rated. Bozo:
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Brad:
You uncovered my nefarious plan! Clearly only whitey will be able to do business with the government if we remove the disadvantaged presumption for the colored folks.
pp 145 of that report has this on 8(a):
In other words, if you win the ’skin’ lottery come on in (even if you are a naturalized citizen whose progenitors were never discriminated against by any agency of our government). If you’re a Dumb Appalachian like Greg, then you’ve got to prove your case to Inspector Gotcha. Love that 14th Amendment, unless it doesn’t jive with your conception of Social Justice that is…
Brad, sorry I lumped you in with Robert, you’ve clearly got more to contribute than astroturfing, so thanks for making the effort.
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After rereading the newer posts, I do have a clearer picture. However, if you initially read the article, the initial posts, and watch the video, it seemed to me that this forum was basically a personal attack launched against an individual who did nothing wrong, other than use already created incentives to grow a business. I do not think it is fair to attack the individual for doing this, as if he did not do it, someone else would have, and you guys would just throw your proverbial darts at someone else. This is completely wasted energy.
I think it is more constructive to discuss the system wide problem. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
There were a lot of ethnic attacks in this string of letter, but they were all from one poster. This is why I was upset and may have posted some offensive “emotional” comments. I apologize.
As for the race lottery, we should switch skin colors so you can see what if feels like to get pulled over for speeding in a decent car or try to catch a cab in NYC when it is raining or snowing and then see how it feels.
Dem poooleeece are not friendly toward dem colored folk. Point is, there are some people of color who I feel are at a disadvantage because their great great great grandfathers were enslaved and when freed were uneducated and forced to work nominal jobs for pennied which caused their kids to do the same and so on…
Well-loved. Brilliant:
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What is astroturfing? Funny, it was Robert’s post that got me all angry.
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Sorry to keep posting, but David posted earlier that Japanese Americans cannot get 8a- but reading jstults reports it lists “asian americans”. I am reading this wrong.
I also noted that race is only one factor, and not the only factor. For example, you can be female, or economically disadvantaged.
Also I note:
“The8(a) program withstood legal challenges to the use of race as one of several eligibility criteria
because, as a business development program, its application is narrowly tailored and therefore
legally permissible under Adarand.”
So really I think the posts about race and minority set asides are not really correct as this program has withstood legal check and balances and there are many other criteria to be involved.
Basically, other then Mr. Hunter, all of your guyses problems with this program is not about race at all it is about the fact that the government is giving a “handout” to economically, socially, racially, physically handicapped or injured veterens? Am I correct?
Do you guys feel the same about Medicaid and Welfare ect. because sometimes in some cases I do.
Well-loved. Brilliant:
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Brad is the man:
Nope; it’s about presumptions, race and equal protection. At least your status as a vetran is something you can choose to change. Here’s what the Supreme’s had to say (from that same report, emphasis mine):
Consider that some people are presumed to be eligible, and others have the burden to prove their eligibility. Then read up on the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause. Then re-read that report and realize that the federal government is not even trying to look for a time when race neutral rules will be sufficient to achieve it’s “compelling interest”. No one is even bothering to look for “a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character”, because that gets in the way of the business-as-usual gravy train.
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I want to clarify that this is the issue and yes Mr. Soin is the Face of that game, and yes he played it for all it is worth. Plenty of laws broken, but just like Christopher Cox at the SEC, nobody is minding the store. I could give and have given a long dissertation on the 8a process and it is my contention that I, as a white Appalachian, absolutely owe no Indian (Dots) for anything that my fore-bearers did or did not do. I have watched the 8a process be used by mostly by foreign born naturalized citizens and not the indigenous Americans of Color. I think the only way for the 8a to have been done correctly is if the minority has been in this country at least 3 generations. Sorry American tax dollars and contracts should be for Americans who spend the money here not for someone who invests American Tax dollars in India.
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@Greg
I guess we will agree to disagree. It is quite obvious that you have some sort of personal issue here. Especially with Indian people. Placing the word “dots” in parathesis is in poor taste and sterotypically rude. Do you use the “n” word when you talk about me? Let me know how this type of attitude works out for you.
Don’t you think it’s weird that your buddy in the video already distanced himself from you and all your other comments have been “hidden” from this website? You are obviously an extremist minority view.
I still say you cannot fault a guy for using a program that was created before he got there. Your “playing if for all it was worth” comment directed to the individual you have a personal problem with is just wasted energy. Don’t hate the player hate the game.
I agree with you that “ALL” handouts of ANY kind to ANY person can be abused. You should see the some of the patients on Medicaid., or government backed disability, or people who file for BWC. Individual citizens, the rich, the poor can all potentially abuse the system. You guys should be against all handouts…. but then you’d be a republican.
I have been reading about “8a” all day today and learned that there are over 200 companies who have used this program in the region. I also learned that you graduate from the program after a few years and there is a life to the program for any person who enrolls.
I think attacking one individual is not going to get you anywhere in life. So you throw one guy under the bus, another guy will come up and use the program and become rich. Same monkey different tree. This is why you should not “hate the player but hate the game”
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I think I may have ended up on the wrong site here. After I read the slur from Mr. Hunter about “dots” (Asian Indians) and jstult’s denegration of Martin Luther King’s speech, and all the “woe is me” for being white. I am obviously in the wrong place.
Missa jussa a stooopid black man master. Missa sooo soorrry.
I will leave you all alone to keep up your banter.
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@greg
I think the real irony is that you all mention that Asian Indians are not discriminated against and then you refer to them as dots, which is an offensive and racially derogatory.
Well-loved. Brilliant:
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Dem poooleeece are not friendly toward dem colored folk (Brad is the Man)
Well Brad, let the Old Bandito raise your racial consciousness. Brahmans, those privileged and pampered folks who hold the highest rung on the Indian social network known as the caste system, are in fact, caucasians. Granted, they are the darker and most southern of the white mans family tree, but part of the family nevertheless. So when minority set asides, which are established to penalize caucasians, are given to Brahmans from India, they are in fact taking from all Americans to give to other caucasians who were born 12,000 miles away. Would entrepreneurial zeal be enhanced if folks were allowed to keep more of their own money by a confiscatory and predatory government? No doubt. Just another example of government ineptitude….
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For folks trying to ‘crack the code’:
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Bozo:
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Raj Soin you are one of Dayton’s favorite sons and an angel on earth!! Thank you for the millions of dollars you gave to build a hospital in Beavercreek- which I heard is the largest gift in the history of Dayton.. Thank you for the millions of dollars you gave to build a children’s trauma center. (And this all happened just last week) Thank you for the over 100 million dollars you have infused via charity ect to the community. Thank you for the thousands of jobs you built in Dayton and for choosing Dayton as your home base for your companies. Thank you for all the charities you give to the local arts and education scene. I do not know you, but am truly grateful you are here and gave back so much too all of us. I just want these comments to be noted here. I think a more appropriate title of this blog should be- how the rich mans dollars end up in all of our pockets.
Brilliant or Bozo?
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