Dayton Public Schools and the state report card
If I ran a dating site and described each member by height, weight, and eye color and nothing else, how many people do you think would be happy about their dates?
The state report card has become the metric for measuring schools of late- leaving out all the nuances that make up a school or a district.
That the Dayton Public Schools have been continuously improving isn’t what makes the local paper- or any big jumps in performance at schools like Thurgood Marshall High School. No, what makes the paper is that:
Eight of the 10 best performing schools in the city of Dayton are now charter schools, according to 2009-10 state Report Card data.
It’s headlines like these that hurt Dayton Public Schools- but, aren’t brutal because most Dayton Public Schools parents don’t read the paper. What’s brutal is how these stories will get manipulated and spun and then “telephoned” to other parents. The difference being- charter schools are businesses that depend on recruiting students to stay open and get funding (right out of the DPS budget) and Dayton Public Schools, well, they just sit there and take it.
Emerson Academy down the street has had a sign up for months saying “Be a part of a top ten school”- they have a nice big four-color brochure (8 pages, not a little trifold) that sells the school and is mailed to households without kids- just because they know they need to toot their horn to everyone, and they need to recruit the students with parents who care and get involved- because parental involvement is probably the second highest indicator for success in school- right after income level.
Dayton Public Schools on the other hand- takes all comers, including those with special needs. Twenty percent of DPS students fall into that category- making it incredibly hard to pull average report card numbers up- and keep budgets under control. Special needs by the way- besides including those with learning handicaps, also includes students who don’t speak English as a primary language. DPS has a school, Patterson Kennedy, that would give the UN a run for its money on number of languages spoken. And, DPS also includes programs that the state report card doesn’t measure- like music, arts, and athletics (there isn’t a charter school with a basketball team- yet, I keep waiting for a charter prep boys basketball school, that can recruit regionally and screw the OSHSAA)
Because it’s the biggest school district (even after losing so many students to charter schools) it becomes the focal point of the region. Dayton Public Schools aren’t very good is a message that gets broadcast across the state- instead of a message like “Stivers School of the Arts” is one of the top in the country- or, we have four Gates scholars almost every year. This hurts in not only recruiting better students, with higher parental involvement- and higher income- but the whole region as we get lumped in as a loser community. Sure, Dunbar won the state hoops title, but, the scores for the school are low (forget about those special needs students or poverty levels).
These shallow one-sided looks at the district performance hurt our property values, hurt our communities’ ability to recruit new people, and sustain an image problem- that’s been in place since the deseg order of the seventies (which built the suburbs- as those who could afford to move did- causing the economic segregation gap to grow phenomenally).
How much is at stake? Because each charter school gets about $5k from DPS for each student, plus DPS has to pay for transportation and other services, it gets expensive. With 27% of the students choosing charters- that’s about 5,200 students, times $5 k each – you are seeing $26 million get drained from DPS coffers. Not exactly chump change- but when you start seeing these students help the charters become 8 of the top 10 schools- you can either draw one of two conclusions:
- Dayton Public Schools can’t educate and Charters can.
- Charters are siphoning off the best students and filtering out the poorest and special needs students.
Somehow I just don’t buy the first answer. I’m sure there are many who will disagree, but considering how many charters also end up on the bottom of the scale – I think we’re seeing the results of some good marketing and cherry-picking of students.
With Dayton Public Schools finally working their way back to “neighborhood schools” they should be able to boost parental involvement and create true learning communities. This has been the method of the charter that became a conversion school up the street in Twin Towers. Ruskin Elementary, in partnership with East End Community Services is working toward a complete learning community modeled after the work done by Geoffery Canada in Harlem.
Also, the Dayton Public Schools has managed to mismanage their PR for something like the last 11 superintendents. Somehow, the good parts of Dayton Public Schools haven’t come to the forefront of public perception. A lot of this can be blamed on the Dayton Daily News, the newspaper that loathes its host community. Nevermind that DPS has also been more likely to hire PR consultants for their political connections- instead of the quality of their work: Avakian Consulting, Penny Ohlman Neiman and now Burges & Burges of Cleveland on a no-bid contract. If there has been anything done to change the DPS brand- it’s been with the aide of the incompetent. (If you’d like examples- I have them- just not the time to post them all).
There is $26 million at stake in lost revenue. There are perception issues that can continue to make it harder for DPS to recruit and retain students who can perform well on standardized testing. It’s time to see a plan to counter these trends and work to solving this problem that will continue to fester and eventually kill the district if not dealt with properly.
Another couple of points:
Five of the nine worst schools in the area are charters (and I don’t see the entire list, if we did a bottom 10 would it be 60%?). DDN chooses to report the top but not the bottom.
The state report card is a constantly shifting measurement with no validity or reliability. We all should remember that rather successful districts got slammed due to the sloppy criteria used in the past; why should we trust the bloated, myopic, ignorant state OBE to assess anything?
I know how to fix the problem. Get rid of public education. Crazy talk, I know.
5K per kid. Last stat I saw was the DPS spends about 12,500 per child per year. Also, half of the money likely comes from the state and federal government. Anyone know the breakdown? My point being is that if they receive 6250 from the state for each child and only pay our 5k for each child that attends a charter, then the DPS is profiting for every child NOT in their system.
David, a deeper look may be required to understand what exactly that money means and were it comes from and if this has a positive or negative effect on the DPS.
Really good point by Mr. Vigh, the system gets the non-local share for every kid NOT in the system. Catholic school parents are really performing a public service by paying property tax and then paying extra to have their child educated outside of the system while DPS still collects. It’s not DPS money David, its the tax payers money. Why shouldn’t EVERY kids local $$$ share follow that kid to their school of choice? Oh wait, (time for “Professor” Ruddick to chime in) parents aren’t smart enough to choose a school for their own child.
Well said Robert and Alan!
I would also like to say that Professor Ruddick makes one of the better points I have seen from him ever. He points out that the government produced “report cards with…no validity or reliability.” and then goes on to ask the question, “why should we trust the bloated, myopic, ignorant state OBE to assess anything?”
These are wonderful points by the good Professor Ruddick. I think Robert should use them as points of support for his unique idea…the abolition of the public education system.
The per student costs that Mr. Vigh refers to average in money to take care of special needs students, costs that can approach $50,000 per student. DPS is 20% special needs students. Charters don’t come near that. DPS also must transport charter and parochial students. DPS does not profit from children not in our system.
Remember, the state of Ohio offers vouchers for families to send their kids to private schools. My daughter in the 3rd grade receives one. When she entered kindergarten, I recall the number being 28 of the 29 kids were on a voucher. When she was in 1st grade, 50% of the kids in the school were on vouchers. The program had only started a couple of years prior to her starting and the classes get smaller as you go up in grades, so that explains the 50% number.
The ironic thing is, when the state offers vouchers, what are they saying about the quality of the public schools ? Isn’t that admitting that there’s problems (with some of them) ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M4tdMsg3ts
Weaker districts in Ohio continue to suffer abandonment as those with wherewithal flee to neighboring districts or go the charter/private route. On a flight to DC this past weekend I talked to a charming young gal from Kettering who was on her way to a boarding school in Conneticut. There are obviously a myraid of options to public education and those that can afford them have sought them out for years.
Public schools provide our country with an affordable solution to educate our youth. Unfortunately in Ohio that has devolved into a lopsided system as wealthier communities afford more and provide greater opportunities thereby trapping the less advantaged in a vicious circle of less opportunity.
The larger problem is the uneven school funding in our state. Looking at the cost per student by district does not tell you much. As Joe Lacey points out the have a high number of special education students. Nationallly urban districts face this mandate to educate these students. They are found in larger numbers in the urban districts as families tend to locate closer to hospitals and special services that can care for these kids. Urban districts across the country have a much higher cost per student because of this.
The uneven funding shows its head when you take a look at the advanced course offerings at each district. For instance (hopefully) they all offer Spanish but how many offer one of the Chinese dialects, French or Korean. What advanced math, computer sciences, and physics are offered? This is where we fail our kids, even in the Charter schools.
Ohio must start talking about how to fund and train all our youth. I have been a long proponent of district consolidation and hope we can all demand our elected officials begin some serious discourse on solving our constitutionally invalid school funding system.
@ Joe Lacey…just for my own info what is the average cost per special needs student. I did a quick perusal of the DPS website and couldn’t find that info. They did not appear to have a budget prominantly posted either. Is that posted somewhere or does it need to be requested?
Thanks
Joe_Mamma, a separate accounting for special needs students would be costly to produce when special needs students are included in the general population for the most part. One difference is Gorman School which is all special needs. According to the Ohio Department of Education’s Cupp report, Gorman’s per pupil costs for fiscal 2009 were $40,649. Getting rid of public education, as Mr. Vigh suggests would leave these children with no school.
NO SCHOOL…………OMG!!!!!!!!! 41K per year for 13 years $533,000. So, what is their rate of success? Do you have those stats Joe or does that not matter? I will not speak for you, but it sounds like you are saying resources should be centrally planned and given based on need.
Anyway. I only gave a quick quip on getting rid of public education. I thought most of my post was about someone actually looking at the #’s and determining if Charters really were positive or negative. I thought David’s original post was inaccurate.
Bruce………..anything “Public” pretty much fails who it is trying to serve.
Just so we are clear. I want to run through the numbers in the report I have to which I have provided the link. http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads.asp
Dayton City Schools — Disability Status:
167 of the 835 reported as having taken the OGT’s proficient in the OGT Reading section. 20%
151 of the 835 reported as having taken the OGT’s proficient in the OGT Math section. 18%
166 of the 835 reported as having taken the OGT’s proficient in the OGT Writing section. 20%
If your number of $50,000 were true for each of those 835 children for 4 years of high school education we would have spent $167,000,000.00. For this return we have at most 168 kids who can pass a basic graduation test. For each success we spend over a million dollars! How much can that kid ever contribute to the system? Will we ever get the $167,000,000 back from those 168 kids?
It is a system that is broken. We can’t keep going like this.
More damning: Dayton Mean ACT score for 2008-2009 was 18. Let’s understand just how bad these are nationally. 32% of kids scored 18 or less on the ACT nationally. That is the mean in Dayton!
We are producing people who will not be able to compete in future job markets! This system is a failure and needs to be destroyed. Public education is not “helping those people who couldn’t get education if we destroyed public funding.” Public education instead creates entire segments of the population who are generation after generation unable to compete. We are harming the vast majority of students in this system and all tax-payers.
Gorman’s success rate matters to me and to our community and can be viewed at http://www.ode.state.oh.us/reportcardfiles/2009-2010/BUILD/013888.pdf If you close Gorman and leave their education to the private sector or charters as you propose, these children would not have their constitutional right to an education met. (Call it a quip if you want. You have a history of criticizing government solutions to a lot of community problems. Now you’re saying that you’re just joking?)
Jesse, I never said we spend $50k on each disabled student. I also don’t see where you are reading 835 disabled high school students taking the OGT. And finally, you seem to be saying that we should not have public education because Dayton’s scores are low. Are you saying that private or charter schools would do a better job? Because the scores are showing that they are not in the case of charters and private schools aren’t subject to testing.
Joe,
1) You can’t have positive rights. I don’t care where it is written; It can’t exist.
2) Their exists no United States Constitutional clause that would seem to indicate that people have a “right” to an education (funded by taxpayers or not).
3) The Ohio Constitution is, I assume, on what you are relying for your statement, “these children would not have their constitutional right to an education met.” I have read the Ohio Constitution and can promise you that nowhere in the document does it state that individuals have a “right” to an education.
4) Even if I assume that you are right and an individual has a “right” to education, do any of the schools in Dayton actually provide it? 18 is the mean score on the ACT! 18! Many of the schools don’t even encourage the bottom half of students to take the ACT. This is the cream of the crop for Dayton City Schools and they have a mean score of 18! This system educates almost nobody. It condemns the vast majority of individuals damned to “learn” in the system to a life of toil.
Joe Lacy: “The per student costs that Mr. Vigh refers to average in money to take care of special needs students, costs that can approach $50,000 per student.”
Lets assume it is $30,000 or $20,000 and that you were overstating to make a point earlier. But lets also look at the entire cost of education as opposed to just high school. What will the numbers look like then, Joe? Will that make the cost go up or down?
Even if we assume that we haven’t lost any kids by the time they take the OGT’s…(not at all likely), and we assume it is “only” $20,000 per kid per year. The cost for 12 years of education (assuming kindergarten doesn’t cost enough to be considered…also very generous on my part) is then $200,400,000.00 for the 835 kids.
I filtered for disabled and OGT scores and aggregated the data.
I am not saying that any private school is better at educating individuals than any public school. I am saying that on average, based on the number of individuals who choose to spend additional money on private education (about 25% nationally), that public schools are not perceived as providers of the learning environment that many parents regard as valuable for their children. Parents choose to pay more money and rescue their children from the misery of the public education system.
If given the opportunity to choose (for no additional cost either way) a typical Dayton Public School or a typical Dayton area private school which would people pick? Which would you pick for your kids?
@Jesse- I picked DPS- the kids are enrolled at Horace Mann. It’s a great school, and the student body is diverse.
The teachers all have at least 15 yrs experience.
And- is the investment in Special Needs kids worth it? Obviously, we didn’t invest enough in teaching you and Vigh about the concept of compassion and responsibility for our community. If you had a kid that had special needs- maybe you’d understand.
“Joe_Mamma, a separate accounting for special needs students would be costly to produce when special needs students are included in the general population for the most part. One difference is Gorman School which is all special needs. According to the Ohio Department of Education’s Cupp report, Gorman’s per pupil costs for fiscal 2009 were $40,649. Getting rid of public education, as Mr. Vigh suggests would leave these children with no school.” – Joe Lacey
It shouldn’t be that hard to come up with a rough estimate. I think asking for an estimate is a pretty fair and reasonable question. If 20% of the students are special needs and the average cost could be as high as $40,000 per year then there are about ~3,100 special needs students driving 55% of the budget. I’m using the numbers from
http://www.dps.k12.oh.us/documents/contentdocuments/doc_23_5_631.pdf
Jesse, you said that this system is a failure and needs to be destroyed. Then what. If you have no alternative to public education then what are you talking about. People choose private schools for all sorts of reasons. My parents wanted me to learn Catholicism. My daughter will most likely attend Ruskin.
Joe_Mamma, if it’s not that tough to estimate the cost of educating the average special needs child then go ahead and estimate it. We have thousands of employees and a large percentage of them spend time on children who are special needs and children who are not considered special needs. We don’t have the administrative budget to compile reports upon public request. I’ve never limited my discussion of cost per pupil to high school so I don’t know what you are talking about.
Jesse,
Perhaps if you were the recipient of another’s wealth and not the one being taken from you would be more compassionate and responsible. (<– Paraphrasing David Esrati)
David,
Really, all the points to be made and possibly discussed and you go this route?
David,
You didn’t have the option I offered. I asked if you would have to pay no more to have your child attend a private school than I public school, which would you choose? If you would choose Horace Mann over the other options in that circumstance then I leave you to your choice. I might not agree that you have chosen correctly, but I think you should be free to do so.
With regard to my compassion for various social groups…you have no idea. It is completely reasonable for me to ask you not to steal my money to give to your special needs kid when I would rather donate that same money to my choice of social group in need. Frankly, it would be reasonable for me to burn it. That said, I would be willing to wager that I am as generous as anyone you know.
“if it’s not that tough to estimate the cost of educating the average special needs child then go ahead and estimate it. We have thousands of employees and a large percentage of them spend time on children who are special needs and children who are not considered special needs. We don’t have the administrative budget to compile reports upon public request. I’ve never limited my discussion of cost per pupil to high school so I don’t know what you are talking about.” – Joe Lacey
Joe-Maybe I’m misreading your post but its coming across to me at least as pretty brusque. I didn’t mean to ruffle feathers. It just seemed to be logical that if DPS published a dollars spent per student figure then they would know the weighting of that number between standard needs students and special needs.
As I said before…I could not locate a DPS budget online. If you could provide a link or a contact that would be awesome.
I’m sorry if I sounded brusque. DPS has a budget prepared by the administration. The board does not vote on that budget and has not been a part of the budget process since Kids First. Their governance model was to stay out of fiscal policy. Anyone who wants to see the administrative budget, including board members, can request it from the administration. The administration regularly reports revenue and expenditures to the board in a report that has only about a dozen line items. I have long advocated that the board should have a greater role in fiscal policy but my efforts have only gotten me some pretty harsh criticism from the DDN, and after seeing what I’ve gone through from the press, my colleagues aren’t anxious to join me in the fight.
With regard to the cost of educating special needs children, they vary greatly based upon need. I’m not particularly concerned about Dayton’s spending for special needs children since our per pupil costs are in line with other districts with comparably large percentages of special needs children. In short, it’s expensive, state money pays for it, and it’s not a place where we’re going to find a lot of savings or effeciencies.
One place where I’ve put a lot of effort into finding savings is transportation. We are busing far more than we need to and that includes charters and private schools. Attendance areas is just the start. We can save more.
If you’re looking for financial information online, a good source is the Ohio Department of Education’s website. Look for the Cupp Report.
@ Joe
Why are the the entire district’s expenditures reported in only 12 line items?
Why aren’t the expenditures of the district fully available, all the way down to departmental spending, expense reports, receipts, etc…
In other words, why isn’t there complete and total transparency? As the district’s payroll and expenditures are accounted for on computers, why can’t this information be available to the public via web search?
Thanks.
District expenditures are fully available upon request any time. I’m saying that board oversight doesn’t go much beyond those twelve or so line items.
@Jesse- We had the option to send our kids anywhere- including a Charter that they were in 3 years ago. We chose Horace Mann- because of it’s diversity- the teachers- the location- the hours- the arts and music programs they offer- and because we believe in public schools.
I do not agree with the way the Dayton Public School Board presents their info- they are not transparent or open. I appreciate and applaud school board member Joe Lacy for his participation on this forum. Note- the rest of them don’t comment – yet, I know they all read this.
David,
Some single friends of mine want some more information on this dating site you mentioned.
Thanks.
…..anything “Public” pretty much fails who it is trying to serve. (Robert Vigh)
Had the Gods on Mount Olympus bestowed upon the Old Bandito the gift they gave to Robert Vigh (that is, the ability to be correct on just about every issue 100 percent of the time), the Old Bandito would be in Vegas handicapping football and pony races, wearing a burnt-orange silk Armani suit and smoking stogies that cost $5 a puff. Alas, without this gift, the Old Bandito will have to be content with cheerleading for Mr. Vigh. And as Mr. Vigh so ably and eloquently states, be it housing, golf courses, pools or schools, it is best to avoid anything with the word “public” in front of it……..
…..anything “Public” pretty much fails who it is trying to serve. (Robert Vigh)
I don’t understand his point. Is he saying we shouldn’t have a public school system and that children whose parents don’t pay to send them to school are out of luck. Is he saying that the government should contract private or charter school systems. Charters have been tried and charters pretty much fail who it is they are trying to serve. Private schools are happy to take some state vouchers but they have shown no interest in taking on the full task that Dayton Public Schools has.
I understand the government getting out of running golf courses, but are you saying that government shouldn’t be involved in trying to educate children…..or is this just another quip…..that the Ice Bandit has taken too seriously.
@ Joe Lacey…
Thanks for the info. I did not know that the board did not have approval power on the budget and I’m a bit surprised seeing as it’s a quarter of a billion dollars. It’s interesting that DPS administration doesn’t make the financials easily accessible, it seems the norm for most districts including Cincy and Columbus.
http://www.columbus.k12.oh.us/website.nsf/0c6fc31e841022ec852573af00703e34/dee6e1022822814c852577820067ca84/$FILE/Columbus_CSD_Final_CAFR_FY_2009.pdf
http://www.cps-k12.org/general/finances/2009CAFR.pdf
http://www.kettering.k12.oh.us/docs/Final_CAFR09-KCS.pdf
http://www.centerville.k12.oh.us/Treasurer
http://www.springboro.org/district/cfo/index.php
http://www.huberheightscityschools.org/treasurer/view.cfm?id=176
Well, Robert and his fellow “starve-the-beast” wingers suggested that I chime in.
Why not kill public education (and public everything, per the Libertarian party’s extemist platform)?
Because education is a public good. If you don’t like public education (and there is no alternative; the charters ARE public education; the parochial schools are closing, merging, and not comparable) then please don’t count on having nurses, paramedics, or other health care providers in sufficient numbers to treat the strokes that your state of high dudgeon is going to cause. Don’t expect to have police officers who know how to write a report, forget entirely about any elected officials who know how to research a problem.
My complaint is that we have re-defined education as a private entitlement. For your information, parents do NOT know how best to educate their children, no more than they know how best to medicate them. It takes some expertise rather than attitude. True, some parents are better than public schools at that task–and those parents already have home-schooling and private options.
The same observation goes for special needs students. If the public benefits from educating them, then let’s do it. I drove a school bus full of special-needs kids in my youth, and I saw several who graduated and went on to be productive citizens. But if profound disabilities make it unlikely that the student OR society can benefit, then there’s a point at which we need to acknowledge that our ability to educate is limited.
Look back to the 1950s, when we thought we were on the verge of practically eliminating illiteracy. The schools were generously funded, there were few administrators and no special government programs, and educators didn’t live in constant fear of trivial lawsuits. Anyone want to turn back the clock to those traditional mainstream values?
Joe_Mamma, the reports that you cited are all comprehensive annual financial reports. I’m not sure why DPS website doesn’t provide it. I know it’s been the intention. Anyway, DPS’ same report is available at
http://www.auditor.state.oh.us/auditsearch/detail.aspx?ReportID=80167
There are other reports available at the State Auditor’s website. However, none of the reports you cited for other districts would be able to give you a separate accounting for special needs students.
>parents do NOT know how best to educate their children
Neither does the government.
The solutions/alternatives to both of these options are limited only by our imagination. People have been/ are being educated- no really educated- in a multitude of different ways from apprenticeships to trade training to private schools, small community schools. No, I’m not talking about turning back the clock, I’m wanting to leap forward. Teach a kid to read, give them an iPad, place them in a work oriented environment, and the possibilities become endless.
Oh Tommy Boy!
Parochial schools are failing? Some data from this year: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/09/05/private-parochial-schools-fare-best-on-test.html#story-continues
Percentage passing OGT’s in the State of Ohio for 2010
Non-Public Education: Math 93% Reading 97% Science 90% Social Studies 94% Writing 97%
Public Education: Math 80% Reading 83% Science 73% Social Studies 80% Writing 84%
“Public Education” failed to top “Non-Public Education” in any of the test areas!
That anyone can look at this system and say that “Public Education” is a success and “Private Education” is a failure is amazing.
Really? The 1950’s is your example of the golden years of public education and traditional mainstream values? Are you talking about before Harry Byrd Sr. ((D) Virginia) opted to close down public schools as opposed to letting African Americans attend? Wow, if only we could go back to those days! How advanced and well educated we all must have been to not allow blacks into the schools.
Historical revisionism is easy unless someone knows the actual history. It wasn’t great then. It isn’t great now.
Jesse, nobody said parochial schools are failing. They are not a viable alternative to our public education system because they simply don’t want to be. It’s not their mission. The voucher system has been around for 3 or 4 years now and parochial schools are happy to take on some voucher students to help keep Catholic schools alive for Catholic families. The church isn’t opening schools so they can educate non-Catholic kids. On the contrary, they are closing Catholic schools because of a declining number of Catholic families interested in their mission.
Higher scores for private schools in general tells me nothing other than they are less likely to have to deal with the problems associated with poverty. Private schools can also get rid of kids for any reason and send them back to the public system.
Indeed, Jesse; I did not say parochial schools are failing. Gosh, I taught at one, once. I said they’re closing and merging and don’t have the capacity to serve all students–and incidentally the one I once taught at was one of the earliest to close.
And Teri; read more carefully (Jesse should also). I do not say that government knows how to educate. I said that teachers do–more so than any other group. The government should fund education, quit micro-managing it, and count on teachers to get the job done–providing them with necessary supplies and resources and protecting them from frivolous lawsuits and assault. THAT is the part of the 1950s that I want to bring back–not the (obviously) sad history of racism.
We’ve seen the marginal failures of “alternative education” movements (do you think teachers desired social promotion, see-and-say, new math, etc.?). Nobody is noting that the closed charter schools’ students have largely returned to DPS, thus further diluting the achievement levels there. No, you all are relying on the GOVERNMENT report card to trash the DPS performance while simultaneously decrying too much GOVERNMENT. OK, have it both ways. When Guatemala outpaces the USA maybe you’ll quit listening to the bureaucrats who have called the assessment/alternative/entitlement tune in education for the past decades and start listening again to the educators.
Then again, the USA doesn’t seem to mind having insurance companies dictate health care–so perhaps the myopia of trusting everyone but the experts is incurable.
>No, you all are relying on the GOVERNMENT report card to trash the DPS performance while simultaneously decrying too much GOVERNMENT.
Who is you all? Not me, man. I think the report card is a load of crap. It measures very little of the actual work that goes on in a classroom day in and day out. I’m not bashing the DPS at all. My beef with schools, aside from governments and unions using them for their own gain, is that they are focused on all the wrong stuff. All you have to do to educate a healthy child is to teach them HOW to think, we are too focused on WHAT to think. We are so focused on what they should learn, when the fact is that a healthy child wants to learn everything anyway, they naturally do not want bounderies to learning set before them, so let’s just teach them how to learn anything they want and then you can guide them rather than lockstep them through childhood. Teach kids how to think, not what to think and you’ve created thoughtful adults who are capable of solving most problems or know where and how to ask for help in solving problems, rather than the education system we have in place now which teaches people to be passively dependent on someone else for most everything- questions, answers, solutions, and that’s a despicable thing to do to another human.
The Stossel show from Sunday was about blowing up public education. It was great. I recommend everyone that has a genuine interest in understanding the argument presented against public education hulu the latest Stossel, even if you disagree, it will give you some noteworthy information. Such as, adjusted for inflation we spend 4 times the amount of money on a k12 education than we did in the 1970’s and scores have not improved. Just fun factoids.
Truddick, I certainly hope that you list many people of the teachers unions as bureacrats, because they certainly are no longer educators. As far as Guatemala, why not? USA already ranks behind 24 other countries in educational achievement.
Joe Lacey, please Hulu Stossel. I could argue with you natural rights, positive rights etc. Or I could argue with you performance, or morality. This conversation can take many educated directions and I do not consider any of them extreme. Especially when my poised arguments are meant to increase individual liberty and enhance overall effectiveness. To clarify my point, I would be perfectly content to be rid of public schools.
Since we are not likely to take a giant leap backwards from the social means in which we fund schools, I think the next best think is an aggressive voucher system. Why should a charter school only receive $5K in funds when another child in a public school with the same state requirements receives 13K for the same student?
I also think we should get rid of state licensing for teachers. It is a shame not to let smart effective people teach unless they go through the drudgery of state certification. It would help generate jobs and would even let poor and impoverished neighborhoods promote their brightest to be teachers, since it may have been unlikely they could afford the education necessary to get that slip of paper. <– Another quip that I feel is worth some thought.
Economic illiterates,
Truddick said, “the parochial schools are closing, merging, and not comparable.”
When businesses close, it means they are failing. No business closes because it is a success. When businesses merge it means they are leveraging opportunities that are usually created by, poor management, declining revenues, etc. When you say not comparable, it means that you can’t compare the parochial schools to the public schools. It is like saying, McDonald’s is not comparable to The Pine Club. The connotation of the statement was obvious and arguing that you didn’t mean it doesn’t indicate that I should read more carefully. It indicates you may be not only economic illiterates…
With regard to the logic that says, “Paraochial (Catholic) schools are closing because they don’t want to teach non-catholic kids.” Catholic schools are teaching more and more non-catholic kids. Also, this trend of school consolidation creates a glut in the supply of teachers and administrators who have proven histories of better results (as compared to their public school counterparts). Simple economic analysis would seem to indicate that we could educate kids for less money because of the glut in supply of educators and administrators. I wonder why we don’t see that? Could it be that we have screwed the economic system up with both public education and unemployment insurance? Oh well, that is another topic for another post.
The answer is not just listening to “experts”. Letting experts do as they wish without feedback is nothing more than technocracy or a soft dictatorship or from an economic standpoint it is allowing a monopoly . Most consumer feedback in the public school system is effectively muted by the very structure of our public education system.
Jesse’s statement:
With regard to the logic that says, “Paraochial (Catholic) schools are closing because they don’t want to teach non-catholic kids.”
Who are you quoting? Nobody said that. It’s easy to make up quotes and argue against them. I did say that Catholic schools will take some vouchers (and in some cases a large percentage of their school) to supplement their mission but they are not in this to eliminate public education. Catholic schools are there to meet the needs of catholic families.
Mr Vigh, public schools get the same $5K that charter schools get from the state. The rest of the $13K (in Dayton’s case) comes from state and federal grants for special needs and from the voters of a district. If you increase the state’s per student share to $13K you would greatly increase the state education budget. That increase could not be sustained without a substantial increase in state revenue and I don’t suppose you have a source for that. $13K would create more charter schools to the point that they would hurt or close some existing schools rated excellent.
Also Mr. Vigh, charter schools already have non-licensed teachers and that experiment isn’t proving successful.
“They are not a viable alternative to our public education system because they simply don’t want to be. It’s not their mission… The church isn’t opening schools so they can educate non-Catholic kids. On the contrary, they are closing Catholic schools because of a declining number of Catholic families interested in their mission.” I think that means that Catholic schools close when Catholic families don’t want to attend and that they don’t want to educate non-Catholic kids. Sorry if I misunderstood. I was paraphrasing. I must have done a bad job.
Joe,
From what I can tell from budget graphs, not much $$ comes from federal. It is about 50% state and 50% local on average. My point is, whether the local government takes the taxes or whether the state takes the taxes is the same to me. Why do charter schools not receive the state AND the local funds? I pay into the same pot of money. If I as a parent (which I am not, so I help subsidize all the parents out there) choose to send my child to a charter school, how come my full share of taxes paid to every municipality does not follow my child? I want every single dime to follow my child to the school of my choosing. This socializes the funding and is no different than what we have now, except it provides choice to parents and students. In addition, successful schools would grow and poor schools would close due to lack of funding. It is a way to at least inject a little competition and choice into a very bogus system we have now.
Joe, I also went to public school and had lots of state certified teachers. And believe me, that experiment is a failure too. Any stats to look at on this or are we just going to guess this argument through to the end and not really consider any of its valid points?
Also, through all your posts, you have not really stated your opinion on DPS. What is your point of view? What solutions do you like or propose?
FYI- Some interesting, thought provoking ideas regarding education can be found in two books by Charles Murray: “Losing Ground: American Social Policy from 1950-1980” and “In Pursuit of Happiness and Good Government”.
Federal grants come through the state.
Local voters pass school property tax levies for a specific school district. The state can’t just ignore the voted levy and go in and take the money (without cause).
Charter schools are a state initiative not a local one so charters basically get the state share of education funding per student. It may not make any difference to you but a lot of people want local control of education so that they can decide how much they will spend on their district.
The taxes for schools don’t go to municipalities, they go to school districts, different entities with different constituencies. If you want your local tax dollars to follow the students then you need to elect school board members that will give district money to charters….or you can have the state do away with school districts and create a statewide charter system. Both ideas would probably be pretty tough sells to most voters in Oakwood, Centerville, Washington Township or Dayton.
The state believes in certification to the degree that certification levels are a part of a school’s report card rating from the state. I’m pretty sure that there is some data on certification especially in urban districts.
I have posted my views before. A true statewide charter system I would support since it would erase district boundaries. The current charter system attracts families with parents, on average, more involved in their children’s education. This should have produced schools with higher performance scores years ago but only started to recently. The result is increasing segregation of children in the worst situations. The current charter system does not produce better schools. The most successful charter school’s teachers would make no real difference in any Dayton Public School (and I know examples of charter school teachers who moved to DPS) not because they are bad teachers but because of the problems associated with students living in poverty. The only programs that I’ve seen make a real difference are those that offer incentive to students, very expensive programs.
FYI- Some interesting, thought provoking ideas regarding education can be found in two books by Charles Murray:
Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve and affiliated (at different times) with the Manhattan Institute and the American Enterprise Institue, both right-wing think tanks.
Just something to keep in mind, that this writer is not a disinterested observer, but perhaps has an ideological agenda.
Joe, the way I understand funding is that the state gives funding to districts based on how much they raise on their own. For example, Centerville gets very little from the state and Dayton gets alot from the state. Locally, voters can raise taxes on themselves if they want too, but after the state plays its balancing act, every local tax increase will through time be offset by a reduction in state provided funds. Essentially, sending our majority willed tax increases to other people.
Regarding teachers moving to DPS, I have seen teachers move as well. Because the pay and benefits are higher and being backed by the 800lb gorilla union and tenure makes life pretty cozy. Teachers are overpaid by the public system. People can choose to argue if they like, but simply put………we have more teachers than teaching jobs and this would normally have a market effect of lowering pay. Not in a public system. For example Kettering teachers just took what a guaranteed 4.2% raise every year for the next decade AND they did it in this economic environment. Yeah, that is what I call cozy.
I am not surprised that the only solution you see is one that costs MORE money. That has been the tag line for 40 years and as my previous post stated: adjusted for inflation we spend 4 times the amount per child than we did 40 years ago and scores have remained the same.
The major question is why do we continue to accept socialism model funding for our schools when the model is terrible?
Jeff Dziwulski, way to discredit thoughts and ideas based on someones affiliation and nothing to do with the merit of the actual thought or idea.
Jeff Dziwulski, way to discredit thoughts and ideas based on someones affiliation and nothing to do with the merit of the actual thought or idea.
Caveat Emptor
Knowing a possible ideological bias leads to a critical reading, which could be more beneficial as one is actively engaging and questioning the writer’s data, logic and conclusions. One would read Howard Zinn or Noam Chomskey in a similar fashion.
“I am not surprised that the only solution you see is one that costs MORE money.” You had me fooled there for a minute Mr. Vigh. I thought for a while that you wanted a meaningful and constructive dialogue. I guess I’m naive.
The $13k per student charter system was your invention. That would cost more money.
The state’s balancing act is not based on the taxes levied locally but on the value of the property property. Two districts with the same level of property value will get the same amount from the state regardless of how much tax they vote for their district. On top of that there is poverty based assistance for poor districts but your statement, “every local tax increase will through time be offset by a reduction in state provided funds” is just plain not true.
We have gotten a lot of concessions from the Dayton teachers union, no pay increases for the past three years, reduced benefits. I don’t know about Kettering.
“The major question is why do we continue to accept socialism model funding for our schools when the model is terrible?”. And you, Mr. Vigh proposed what you described as a “socialized” model by paying charter schools $13K per student. I’m not sure what you want or what problem you think needs addressed.
Hey Jeff. I think Zinn’s “People’s History of the United States” is one of the most interesting books I’ve ever read, and is a great counter-balance to the subtle and not-so-subtle indoctrination we get as kids in the US (Washington couldn’t tell a lie when he chopped down the cherry tree, etc., etc.), and Chomskey’s “Manufacturing Consent” brings up some fascinating thoughts, too.
And so does Murray.