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We should have a tax on every American for National Defense, other necessary federal and state programs, and local issues. But then we would have the poor rob the rich at gun point to pay their fair share.

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Everything the opponents of I-675 had predicted has come true.
The big impact to Dayton city was in lost jobs, particularly white- and pink- collar employment. A large collection of hotels and spec office buildings went up at the interchanges, as well as some light industry. This destroyed the market for downtown hotel rooms and office space, resulting in vacant skyscrapers, closed hotels, and a deserted center city. Development at the interchanges also meant employment opportunities moved away from inner city residents, especially in service industry work.

History has impacts so we can either put our heads in the sand and paint some other excuse or deal with it.  Not dealing with the true cause of problems is a sign of stupidity, no matter how well written the parable.  God you are funny Icey, but being funny and holding the first amendment is one thing, reviewing the data and robbing life liberty and the pursuit of happiness from one group to enhance another SHOULD not be the American Ideal.  Contrary to all of the Imperialist Actions of this American Empire.

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Most of the time it has nothing to do with race. But a liberal will tell you otherwise. The only time I think of race is when we talk about it or I see it over blown on the NEWS. Otherwise, I see a man, a woman, a kid…… so then I am sexist. Or I age discriminate. One can never win, but I move forward and ignore the liberal observations. After all, these observations are made with shades on.

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They found a strong correlation between statewide conservative religiousness and statewide teen birth rate even when they accounted for income and abortion rates.

Thanks for the link David as I grew up in a religious environment, when Ohio was not lead by the Taliban of the Religious right.  Face it God can create heaven in heaven and man should manage the desires of the flesh in the most tolerant and honest way possible.

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But what I can’t figure out is kids that come from more money tend to have less kids at an early age. Is it bc of rubbers? Maybe. Or maybe, just maybe, this kind of behavior and the results of this behavior are frowned upon? Some kids are having kids bc their friends did, they get government help, and it is a part of their culture. Break that.

They have rubbers. But these young men aren’t “men” if they use them. Poor people just make poor decisions for what ever reason.

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Percentage of crime sifted through and then placed on a race is sort of….. stupid? Men are roughly 50% of the population but commit way more than 50% of the crime, no?
Crime is mostly about people making bad decisions, obviously. Why does one “group” commit more crime than another, based on statistics? Income is the number one reason. Rich people commit crime, but just not at the same rate (rich meaning “not poor” – ie middle class as well.)

Also crime is more accepted in Urban areas, meaning smaller crimes (drugs, small theft, a punch in the face here or there) often is not even looked upon as crime among Urban folk. Suburbanites have tighter interpretations of crime, and point out almost every little last thing that is a crime – and they should – bc a “crime” is still “breaking the law.”
My cop buddies say that with reduced budgets they often do not investigate small stuff (which a lot of people say has happened from the beginning of time, but that is not true), falls under the “it’s a part of life” category. Do we need more cops? Sure. Sounds like a good idea, at first. But if we have 5 times the cops we feel like we live in a military zone. I suggest to people that they should stop committing the crimes, even if they don’t feel it should be a crime in the first place (ie drugs.)
Obviously this is easy to talk about, and no real results can be truly known. Data only tells us so much. Why are some areas of similar size and racial make up have less crime? Is it religion? Schools? Or do people collectively, rich and poor and middle class, white and black and other, just don’t put up with the shit. Who knows? Certainly not me.

But if poor people want to get out from being poor, I suggest no crime, stay in school, actually study, graduate, work a minimum wage job and work your way up the ladder, continue education when you can, move the hell out of a bad neighborhood if you live in one (once you can afford it), continue to keep your nose clean, continue to work and not quit your job until you have another line up, don’t have any children, don’t associate with losers (criminals.) Yes, easier said than done but a lot of people manage to do it. It is choice, often, that leads people to do shit they should not. And often it has a direct link to who their parents are…

If you want to break the cycle, people should stop having kids until they can afford them, both financially and emotionally. That is not that hard, is it? A lot of people manage to go through life up until 22 or 25 years of age and not have kids. It seems poor people can’t manage that (whites, black, others)(and I am not trying to be mean.) That is when their life is most affected in terms of success or failure. Why don’t people “get” that?

But I think the biggest problems are about these kids, and the fathers that just don’t show up, don’t pay for them. That happens a lot in poor areas. White, black, all of the above “poor” folk. Why? When did this become OK? When did we accept men not stepping up to the plate? We accept shit and we get… shit.

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The link I posted in that thread was a poverty model that the federal government uses to decide how much subsidy to give to poorer schools, are you really arguing that we’re allocating taxes based on the tenets of Racism?  The flow of public funds wouldn’t seem to support that assertion  (I’m open to being corrected, but I’m a number cruncher, so show me the data).

Problem is that I need the data too.  But anecdotally look at the flow of private and public money and I think you will see a push away from the West side and the flow of tax dollars on the whole to the South, East and with the rise of Clayton, North West.  Ohh we will trumpet 6 million for the Wright Dunbar District, but that money pails in comparison to the Greene Investment or the Austin Road Investment.  Then look at housing prices in the Dayton Area through time and I think you will find that household wealth increased disproportionately in the South, East and Northwest.  I am not sure that just looking at school data tells the story.

Are there discussions among Black residents addressing the issue of anti-White racism (which, despite my observation above, certainly exists and I’ve been on the receiving end of it)? If we’re going to honestly discuss race, everyone needs to come to the table together.

Agreed Pseudonymous and thanks for the input and I agree that the African American Community has to join the conversation.  I think that the African American Community has culpability in some of the issues, but Whites still have and have had the power, so we have the most responsibility.  For example, here is a comment by Molly Darcy on Gary’s campaign that says something about the involvement of the African American Community in the affairs of the City.

Gary—the only reason you won is because no one knew who the hell you were!  You actually won a campaign because no one west thought there was an actual race for Mayor so they didn’t show up to vote.  It has nothing to do with how “efficient” your campaign spending was, actually if you would have spent $0 you might have increased your margin.   East would have voted for Bugs Bunny over Mayor McLin.  You really don’t get it.

I mean come on get involved and stop (stereotype alert) allowing your preacher or entrenched Black Politicians to tell you what is best.  GET INVOLVED!

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Racism exists, I get that. But studying the past is not helping with this Fairmont issue. We are not going back to slavery. We have a lot of successful black people in this country. Some are still held back, but again my point is ignore the losers who promote racism, if you can find them. Don’t do business with them, don’t talk to them.

Any house or apartment can go section 8. Oakwood has some, do you want more? If so, why? BC the only advantage in living in Oakwood are the schools, so unless you have kids it is not worth it. And if someone in section 8 housing moved to Oakwood without kids they would be wasting this resource. That in itself is segregation. But the reality is if you want more black students there then I suggest black families move there. Is someone stopping them? People say they would not welcome black people with open arms. I am not sure anyone anywhere is welcomed with open arms. You have to fit in to a community, not the other way around. If people have a problem with black people living next to them well then they will move (those with the problem.)

I looked at a house on Harvard the other week. Would I be welcomed with open arms? Not sure. Not sure who even lives there. I did not go to every house to see the make up of the block. I am guessing black and white, but I really don’t know.

I just think if racism was a HUGE problem we would see more of it. Yes it disguises itself, but so many young people have gotten beyond it. Every generation seems a bit more open. To force anything is bad. People can live where they want, so why don’t black people move to Oakwood? Why don’t white people move the West Dayton? It is open to everyone, and if people keep using the race card then I will say it is a two way street. Maybe blacks should be more open to white people and white ideas. After all, whites are the majority (for now) in this country. Go try to hand your  Michigan banner in Columbus. Fitting in is a part of life.

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I am of the Spiderman adage “With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility”

Anne:

My Appalacian Grandma-in-law told me something once that really rung true. She told me that the reason the poor whites were so racist is because they needed to make their own social standing seem better. They knew they were ‘the bottom rung’ and so they were interested in keeping black people below them.

Both of these comments highlight how whites of higher social standing have historically chosen to deal with the problem of poor blacks (and to a lesser extent the hillbilllies), a sort of noblesse oblige that is a hold-over from the paternalism of plantation owners in the deep south, and the progressive activism of the early industrialists.  I don’t think there’s much promise for the future in following those footsteps.  I’m more of the “teach a man to fish” persuasion.
 
Greg:

If you cannot see that people are still making incorrect assumptions and tax allocations based on the tenets of Racism then there is really no reason to discuss it any further

As was posted over in the <a href=”http://esrati.com/?p=3859&cpage=1#comments”>education thread</a>, the troubled urban schools already get significantly more money per student then the ones out in the suburbs and they still under-perform.  Are you saying that giving more money to predominantly black inner-city schools is Racist?  Playing more redistribution games with tax dollars is not a fix (it’s already being done to little effect).  The link I posted in that thread was a poverty model that the federal government uses to decide how much subsidy to give to poorer schools, are you really arguing that we’re allocating taxes based on the tenets of Racism?  The flow of public funds wouldn’t seem to support that assertion  (I’m open to being corrected, but I’m a number cruncher, so show me the data).
 
Here’s that link again:
http://www.census.gov//did/www/saipe/

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I just don’t see it. A few high school punks and BAM we have a huge race problem?
Where is all of this racism? I think it would be easy to see if I believe half of what Jeff wrote. But I don’t see it, so it only exists on a minor level.

I am sorry but anyone that studies the data and perceptions of people should be able to recognize the historic remnants of Racism.  Jeff has the data and the experience to compare the data and the results.  If you cannot see that people are still making incorrect assumptions and tax allocations based on the tenets of Racism then there is really no reason to discuss it any further, which is why I am posting now.

So you are arguing for ‘racial forensics’; what do we do with an analysis like that once it’s done?  Once we know how the car wreck happened, how does that help?

Yes I think racial forensics would help but it is not any easy science or discussion because the car has been moving(wrecking) while we are tinkering with the design.  I really believe that knowing how the car was wrecked helps design a “better car”.  The “problem” has been that people usually are forced/coerced into a solution that exacerbates the problem (Great Society, Busing, Minority Set Asides).  Read the first comment on this topic by Anne for the historical ramifications of race and race relations and I think there is sufficient data that proves this type of thinking is one of reasons that Oakwood sectioned itself long ago.  They will claim otherwise (response to the flood) but in reality the privileged class did not want their children or themselves to be around or fund the education or infrastructure of the OTHER (Blacks and the Appalachian imports they hired to work in their factories -1).  I am of the Spiderman adage “With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility”  I have seen neither and frankly the opposite, denial of the issues, which seems to work as East Dayton Gene worships their largess.  The HELP (East Kettering Brier as I have been known) sees it in a different light.  Actions speak louder than words and it appears that when public housing is proposed; Oakwood howls like a stuck pig.  Sure they will vote for Obama, but would they want him and his entourage to live in Oakwood or join Dayton Country Club.  Was Oliver Purnell ever a member of DCC?  It was part of the package…..

1.  From Anne

My Appalacian Grandma-in-law told me something once that really rung true. She told me that the reason the poor whites were so racist is because they needed to make their own social standing seem better. They knew they were ‘the bottom rung’ and so they were interested in keeping black people below them.

Yes and these Appalacians were brought into Dayton, early in the Industrial Revolution, to work in the factories because the Oakwoodites or Elites would not hire African Americans to work in the factories.

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Gene: I don’t think the issue is that “they” don’t want white people there. White people don’t want to be there because “they” are there. The riots in the 60s drove Whites out in droves…my grandparents had a place on Audobahn Park until the riot. Then they (along with countless other Appalachian transplants) found their way to Riverside. I’ve seen a good deal more Confederate flags east and northeast than Farrakhan flyers west and northwest.

On the other hand, address the issue of disproportionately high Black crime rates and you’ll largely fix the problem of White racism. I realize there’s a vicious cycle there… you can argue that racism created social inequalities that left Blacks at a disadvantage, and the crime is the consequence, but at the same time, that crime further fuels notions of inequality and desire for separation. Whatever the reasons, the Department of Justice statistics don’t lie. Who wants their neighborhood to turn into DeSoto Bass? Heck, they had to raze Parkside to the ground to fix it.

The other issue: on your video, I see two reasonably well educated White people talking about racism being a problem, and 71 comments from what I assume is a very similar demographic. Are there discussions among Black residents addressing the issue of anti-White racism (which, despite my observation above, certainly exists and I’ve been on the receiving end of it)? If we’re going to honestly discuss race, everyone needs to come to the table together.

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